Maintenance for the week of December 23:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
Animation Canceling and You.
DocFrost72
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
This is not a discussion of "should it be in the game", go post in any of the other 27 threads.
This is about dispelling common misconceptions, rumors, and falsehoods in order to arm ourselves with facts upon which you can draw from in future discussions, regardless of if you want it to exist or not. Heck I'm sure I'm missing stuff too, we'll see.
1: What is animation canceling?
Animation canceling is the act of halting or cutting short an action or a visual representation of an action by using the game's priority system. Such examples include blocking to react to a heavy attack after casting surprise attack, bar swapping to maintain a fluid rotation after casting endless hail, or using biting jabs after initiating a light attack to weave.
2: What types of animation canceling exist?
Weaving: The act of canceling a light attack animation with an ability to fire both at once.
Block: Using block just after using an ability to hide the display of an ability and react to boss or player actions faster.
Roll dodge: The timing (and cost) of this one is tricky, but is essentially the same as block canceling.
Bar swap: Activating bar swap just after activating an ability in order to hide the animation and use the downtime to swap to a more prudent bar.
Jumping: doesn't cancel anything. You cannot jump animation cancel.
3: Was animation cancelling actually not intended?
ZOS intended for people to be able to block and dodge at any time, they coded priority for a reason. However, they didn't expect some of the things that players could do with it, and never anticipated that it would be as prevalent as it is today, that is certainly true. Upon their own investigation, they concluded that it was a welcome, if perhaps slightly unintended addition to the game.
4: Is animation canceling cheating or an exploit?
No. No part of the TOS is broken by manual input of animation canceling. Macros are their own separate issue, as they violate the TOS regarding third party systems. It is also not an exploit (read: abuse of unintended play) to animation cancel abilities and attacks. This may seem to go against point three, so allow me to explain. ZOS had coded priority lists, which meant that block/roll/swap animation canceling was certainly intended. The idea was to make you more flexible, able to react to combat as it happened in real time. As for weaving, there is a loading screen and level up advisor tip hinting at this. Further, nightblade's assassin's will proc is built around weaving, and ultimate generation only climbs if you are using a light attack, blocking damage, or heal a friendly target. The latter applies to every character in every part of the game. Whatever may have been the case years ago, it could not fairly be called an exploit now.
EDIT: found by user @GrumpyDuckling, thank you!
From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest
5: Does animation canceling change when abilities hit?
Depends on how you mean that. Weaving light attacks with abilities for example, will change how rapidly you observe both light attacks and abilities as opposed to using them separately. However, the damage of say, surprise attack, is calculated and delivered before the animation plays. You're not hastening anything here, the damage is done before animation whether or not you cancel.
6: Do you have to use animation canceling to be a viable dps? What about PvP? (thanks to @Sharee for reminding me to do pvp!)
For score runs and the absolute hardest vet trial content, yes and maybe in that order. You don't have to be a weaving or bar swapping master to do dungeons or crag vets. For 99.9% of ESO's population, weaving is not essential, it just helps a lot.
As for PVP, it is much the same as end game trials. If you want to be a tough to take down, confident solo player or small group player, animation canceling is crucial. If you're just in it to surf zergs or help with siege, you may find it less so. One thing is certain however; animation canceling does matter to people in pvp due to the highly reactive nature of the content.
7: Block canceling rotations.
This is just an aside from me, I see people all the time blocking to cancel every attack during pve rotations. It doesn't add damage (see point 5) and kills stam sustain. Weave instead!
EDIT: As user @Noctus pointed out, this is not only killing sustain on stam toons, but is useless even if you're bashing /light attack bashing on magicka toons too. Better off just using light attack and pressing the ability you want to weave it with rather than bash.
Congratulations! You now have the proper knowledge to make your arguments for or against the existence of animation canceling in a way where you won't get egg on your face.
I'd also like feedback. Did I miss something? Is something here not accurate? Discuss it below.
Edited by DocFrost72 on February 27, 2019 5:16AM This is about dispelling common misconceptions, rumors, and falsehoods in order to arm ourselves with facts upon which you can draw from in future discussions, regardless of if you want it to exist or not. Heck I'm sure I'm missing stuff too, we'll see.
1: What is animation canceling?
Animation canceling is the act of halting or cutting short an action or a visual representation of an action by using the game's priority system. Such examples include blocking to react to a heavy attack after casting surprise attack, bar swapping to maintain a fluid rotation after casting endless hail, or using biting jabs after initiating a light attack to weave.
2: What types of animation canceling exist?
Weaving: The act of canceling a light attack animation with an ability to fire both at once.
Block: Using block just after using an ability to hide the display of an ability and react to boss or player actions faster.
Roll dodge: The timing (and cost) of this one is tricky, but is essentially the same as block canceling.
Bar swap: Activating bar swap just after activating an ability in order to hide the animation and use the downtime to swap to a more prudent bar.
Jumping: doesn't cancel anything. You cannot jump animation cancel.
3: Was animation cancelling actually not intended?
ZOS intended for people to be able to block and dodge at any time, they coded priority for a reason. However, they didn't expect some of the things that players could do with it, and never anticipated that it would be as prevalent as it is today, that is certainly true. Upon their own investigation, they concluded that it was a welcome, if perhaps slightly unintended addition to the game.
4: Is animation canceling cheating or an exploit?
No. No part of the TOS is broken by manual input of animation canceling. Macros are their own separate issue, as they violate the TOS regarding third party systems. It is also not an exploit (read: abuse of unintended play) to animation cancel abilities and attacks. This may seem to go against point three, so allow me to explain. ZOS had coded priority lists, which meant that block/roll/swap animation canceling was certainly intended. The idea was to make you more flexible, able to react to combat as it happened in real time. As for weaving, there is a loading screen and level up advisor tip hinting at this. Further, nightblade's assassin's will proc is built around weaving, and ultimate generation only climbs if you are using a light attack, blocking damage, or heal a friendly target. The latter applies to every character in every part of the game. Whatever may have been the case years ago, it could not fairly be called an exploit now.
EDIT: found by user @GrumpyDuckling, thank you!
From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest
5: Does animation canceling change when abilities hit?
Depends on how you mean that. Weaving light attacks with abilities for example, will change how rapidly you observe both light attacks and abilities as opposed to using them separately. However, the damage of say, surprise attack, is calculated and delivered before the animation plays. You're not hastening anything here, the damage is done before animation whether or not you cancel.
6: Do you have to use animation canceling to be a viable dps? What about PvP? (thanks to @Sharee for reminding me to do pvp!)
For score runs and the absolute hardest vet trial content, yes and maybe in that order. You don't have to be a weaving or bar swapping master to do dungeons or crag vets. For 99.9% of ESO's population, weaving is not essential, it just helps a lot.
As for PVP, it is much the same as end game trials. If you want to be a tough to take down, confident solo player or small group player, animation canceling is crucial. If you're just in it to surf zergs or help with siege, you may find it less so. One thing is certain however; animation canceling does matter to people in pvp due to the highly reactive nature of the content.
7: Block canceling rotations.
This is just an aside from me, I see people all the time blocking to cancel every attack during pve rotations. It doesn't add damage (see point 5) and kills stam sustain. Weave instead!
EDIT: As user @Noctus pointed out, this is not only killing sustain on stam toons, but is useless even if you're bashing /light attack bashing on magicka toons too. Better off just using light attack and pressing the ability you want to weave it with rather than bash.
Congratulations! You now have the proper knowledge to make your arguments for or against the existence of animation canceling in a way where you won't get egg on your face.
I'd also like feedback. Did I miss something? Is something here not accurate? Discuss it below.
18
-
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe add pvp to point 6 as one of the "needed to be viable" categories. Other than that, everything seems to check out.
I would probably also mention that doing this via macros is both very easy and illegal.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Maybe add pvp to point 6 as one of the "needed to be viable" categories. Other than that, everything seems to check out.
I would probably also mention that doing this via macros is both very easy and illegal.
Good catch to the pvp one, editing it now.
As for the latter, it is addressed in point 4. "No part of the TOS is broken by manual input of animation canceling. Macros are their own separate issue." Might not be a bad idea to clarify that macros are 3rd party and technically break TOS to further clarify this point though.0 -
Vyvrhel✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Weaving: The act of canceling a light attack animation with an ability to fire both at once.
Let me ask a question here. When I am testing on a dummy, I always try to weave LAs into my abilities, but sometimes the dummy does not show any damage from the LA, only from the ability. Also there is not even a trace of the animation. It seems rather random, and does not depend on the timing I use.
What is the proper timing for weaving, is it LA and the ability as fast as possible? Or is there some necessary delay?
Note that I use a mouse with more buttons and I have the action keys mapped on the mouse buttons.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Weaving: The act of canceling a light attack animation with an ability to fire both at once.
Let me ask a question here. When I am testing on a dummy, I always try to weave LAs into my abilities, but sometimes the dummy does not show any damage from the LA, only from the ability. Also there is not even a trace of the animation. It seems rather random, and does not depend on the timing I use.
What is the proper timing for weaving, is it LA and the ability as fast as possible? Or is there some necessary delay?
Note that I use a mouse with more buttons and I have the action keys mapped on the mouse buttons.
That happens a lot to people practicing it and in areas of high ping, and the reason is complex.
Simply put, there is a very, very brief input window (I think I read .15 seconds? I cannot confirm that number as I've not personally tested) where two actions such as light attacks and skills won't be considered because the input times are too close.
The way I've figured out my own weaving timing was just smashing a dummy for a long while, and looking for when it fails (animation wise). I've found when my weapon is visually about to hit the target I can hit the skill and weave successfully with my ping (100-150). Where you say timing is irrelevant, the culprit may be lag related. How often would you say it happens?2 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.11 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.
Correct, I do not bring it up. Know why?
This is not a discussion of "should it be in the game", go post in any of the other 27 threads.
This is about dispelling common misconceptions, rumors, and falsehoods in order to arm ourselves with facts upon which you can draw from in future discussions, regardless of if you want it to exist or not.
Edited by DocFrost72 on February 26, 2019 10:15PM1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.
Why shouldn't your spell fire if you've cast it and then interrupted the animation, though? By the time the animation plays out you've already spent the magicka and the damage has already been done. Are we going to rewind time and undo the damage and refund the resources spent? This is why a huge number of abilities in the game are labeled as "instant cast". The cast is instant, the animation is superfluous. Think of it as a "follow-through", not an intrinsic part of the skill's damage or cost. Hence, you can't effectively animation cancel skills with cast times or channeled skills because those are not instant cast, and the full animation represents the act of casting the skill, ergo canceling the animation cancels its effect (e.g., Biting Jabs or Radiant Oppression or Channeled Acceleration). Very consistent and very logical if you take 30 seconds to actually read the tooltips of the skills you're using.
And besides, if you actually watch the animations closely using one of your examples, if you swap in mid-swing with a mace, you do actually hit the enemy with your mace. You just don't play the follow-through.
OP probably didn't address this point because discussing "realism" in an Elder Scrolls game is fundamentally ridiculous.Edited by LiquidPony on February 26, 2019 10:34PM8 -
Noctus✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Maybe add pvp to point 6 as one of the "needed to be viable" categories. Other than that, everything seems to check out.
I would probably also mention that doing this via macros is both very easy and illegal.
Good catch to the pvp one, editing it now.
As for the latter, it is addressed in point 4. "No part of the TOS is broken by manual input of animation canceling. Macros are their own separate issue." Might not be a bad idea to clarify that macros are 3rd party and technically break TOS to further clarify this point though.
u should edit the last part. its not just killing sustain but it doesnt rly add dps unless u bash so it murders ur sustain and is useless for magicka. skill and lightattacks have both global cooldown after a block cancel (if ur rly fast) u cant start a lightattack or skill again (thats why its most effective to just weave and no experienced guy like alcast will use block cancel). test it if u like. u cant be fast than the global cooldown ;DEdited by Noctus on February 26, 2019 10:19PM3 -
InvictusApollo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since we are talking about animation canceling - is there an addon that would show me a list of abilities used on me by my enemy? Preferably divided by enemy and time so that I could see at which point of his combo my enemy is.0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.
Correct, I do not bring it up. Know why?
This is not a discussion of "should it be in the game", go post in any of the other 27 threads.
This is about dispelling common misconceptions, rumors, and falsehoods in order to arm ourselves with facts upon which you can draw from in future discussions, regardless of if you want it to exist or not.
Excuse me, but how is anything I said a rumor or falsehood? Are you saying that in real life, if you stop swinging a sword to block an attack, you somehow hit your opponent with your sword anyway? Surely that is not what you are saying....
You don’t have to raise the point in a “should be” context, but when animation cancels in this game are as wonky and uninuititve as they are, it needs to be mentioned that animation cancelling disregards common sense. You need to mention “keep in mind when you cancel an animation you will do damage even though it does not look like you should have.” I raise this because it is confusing as hell for new players because of how counterintuitive it is. You’ll think you are lagging or something. This was seriously my assumption for an entire year in this game. xdEdited by Starlock on February 26, 2019 11:40PM0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@DocFrost72 nicely done with a tight focus on what AC is and does while avoiding debate among proponents/detractors. Awesome for you!Edited by AcadianPaladin on February 26, 2019 11:33PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo2 -
UntilValhalla13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Weaving: The act of canceling a light attack animation with an ability to fire both at once.
Let me ask a question here. When I am testing on a dummy, I always try to weave LAs into my abilities, but sometimes the dummy does not show any damage from the LA, only from the ability. Also there is not even a trace of the animation. It seems rather random, and does not depend on the timing I use.
What is the proper timing for weaving, is it LA and the ability as fast as possible? Or is there some necessary delay?
Note that I use a mouse with more buttons and I have the action keys mapped on the mouse buttons.
There's a slight pause. If you try to do it as fast as possible, then more than likely your light attack won't go off, and you wind up just spamming the ability. Look up Novaris on YouTube and his dps builds. He physically shows his hands on the controller when explaning rotations, so you can see the timing of it all. It's pretty helpful for people who aren't used to doing it.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DocFrost72
It might be worth mentioning the following patch note in #3 or #4 because this appears to reaffirm their decision that animation canceling is here to stay for at least the near future:
From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.
I do think that this point might warrant some mention in the PVP section because the disappearance of visual cues can have a significant affect on combat against another player. Also, you're right when you say it's not a misconception, rumor, or falsehood.
PVP can largely depend on SEEING what an opponent is doing, so animation canceling can, at times, reduce the chance for a player to perform quick, reactionary decisions based on visual cues of their opponent's attacks. I think that is absolutely worth mentioning if the goal is to inform players about facts of animation canceling because it is a fact that not seeing parts of animations can significantly affect PVP encounters.3 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Since we are talking about animation canceling - is there an addon that would show me a list of abilities used on me by my enemy? Preferably divided by enemy and time so that I could see at which point of his combo my enemy is.
EDIT: I misread your post, user @jcm2606 's suggestion is a perfect answer though.DocFrost72 wrote: »Maybe add pvp to point 6 as one of the "needed to be viable" categories. Other than that, everything seems to check out.
I would probably also mention that doing this via macros is both very easy and illegal.
Good catch to the pvp one, editing it now.
As for the latter, it is addressed in point 4. "No part of the TOS is broken by manual input of animation canceling. Macros are their own separate issue." Might not be a bad idea to clarify that macros are 3rd party and technically break TOS to further clarify this point though.
u should edit the last part. its not just killing sustain but it doesnt rly add dps unless u bash so it murders ur sustain and is useless for magicka. skill and lightattacks have both global cooldown after a block cancel (if ur rly fast) u cant start a lightattack or skill again (thats why its most effective to just weave and no experienced guy like alcast will use block cancel). test it if u like. u cant be fast than the global cooldown ;D
Good suggestion, will throw it in.DocFrost72 wrote: »The OP doesn't really bring up the main thing that annoys some of us about this "mechanic" of the game. Address more directly that animation cancelling allows abilities to have an effect in spite of realism-defying animation interruptions. That, more than anything else, is what makes me find the combat in this game downright bizarre and it is not at all intuitive. If my character blocks/swaps/etc while trying to cast something, the spell they are casting should not fire. If my character blocks/swaps/etc in mid-swing with their mace, the mace should not hit the enemy and do damage. Except it does, which is why animation cancelling in this game is seriously messed up.
Correct, I do not bring it up. Know why?
This is not a discussion of "should it be in the game", go post in any of the other 27 threads.
This is about dispelling common misconceptions, rumors, and falsehoods in order to arm ourselves with facts upon which you can draw from in future discussions, regardless of if you want it to exist or not.
Excuse me, but how is anything I said a rumor or falsehood? Are you saying that in real life, if you stop swinging a sword to block an attack, you somehow hit your opponent with your sword anyway? Surely that is not what you are saying....
You don’t have to raise the point in a “should be” context, but when animation cancels in this game are as wonky and uninuititve as they are, it needs to be mentioned that animation cancelling disregards common sense. You need to mention “keep in mind when you cancel an animation you will do damage even though it does not look like you should have.” I raise this because it is confusing as hell for new players because of how counterintuitive it is. You’ll think you are lagging or something. This was seriously my assumption for an entire year in this game. xd
I don't know if there was a miscommunication or what, but we're not talking the same arguments here. What you're saying isn't a rumor or falsehood, so I've no idea why I'd include it in a list of rumors and falsehoods I am trying to work through for the public. Your statements are arguments for the alteration of animation canceling. Nowhere in the above do I give my opinion on what should happen to it, and I ask that you take comments, questions, and concerns about that sort of thing to any of the other active threads discussing it.
Please do me a favor. Reread the first two paragraphs. Look at what you replied to me. Ask yourself "does it make sense that the OP would add this to the discussion". If it does, please reply and I'll try to help clarify it again, but you're on a whole separate discussion from what I am discussing (which by the way, you even ADMIT TO in bold there).AcadianPaladin wrote: »@DocFrost72 nicely done with a tight focus on what AC is and does while avoiding debate among proponents/detractors. Awesome for you!
Thank you!GrumpyDuckling wrote: »@DocFrost72
It might be worth mentioning the following patch note in #3 or #4 because this appears to reaffirm their decision that animation canceling is here to stay for at least the near future:
From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest
Awesome find, I'll add it directly to the OP.
Edited by DocFrost72 on February 27, 2019 5:18AM0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Since we are talking about animation canceling - is there an addon that would show me a list of abilities used on me by my enemy? Preferably divided by enemy and time so that I could see at which point of his combo my enemy is.
I highly recommend Combat Metrics for anything and everything to do with combat. It includes,
Live readouts of your DPS, your group's DPS, the percentage of the group's DPS you're pulling, your average healing per second, how long you've been in combat for, etc.
An in-depth combat report where you can see your average and maximum stats over the period of the fight, how much damage you did in total, how much of that total damage was in critical strikes, what DPS you pulled on each target during the fight, what (de)buffs you both applied and received during the fight, the uptime of all (de)buffs, how much damage each of your skills did, how much of that damage was in critical strikes, how many times you used your abilities, what your resource generation and drain was like during the fight, etc. It is absolutely packed full of information.
And a live combat log in a new chat tab which shows you in real time what is happening throughout the fight, whether it be dealing damage, taking damage, healing, generating resources, draining resources, weapon swapping, etc.1 -
Vyvrhel✭✭✭
I dare to say it is really random. Sometimes I start OK and later while keeping my timing I start missing LAs, and the toon shows some strangely incomplete animation. Sometimes the whole test run is fine.DocFrost72 wrote: »How often would you say it happens?
0 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Since we are talking about animation canceling - is there an addon that would show me a list of abilities used on me by my enemy? Preferably divided by enemy and time so that I could see at which point of his combo my enemy is.
I highly recommend Combat Metrics for anything and everything to do with combat. It includes,
Live readouts of your DPS, your group's DPS, the percentage of the group's DPS you're pulling, your average healing per second, how long you've been in combat for, etc.
An in-depth combat report where you can see your average and maximum stats over the period of the fight, how much damage you did in total, how much of that total damage was in critical strikes, what DPS you pulled on each target during the fight, what (de)buffs you both applied and received during the fight, the uptime of all (de)buffs, how much damage each of your skills did, how much of that damage was in critical strikes, how many times you used your abilities, what your resource generation and drain was like during the fight, etc. It is absolutely packed full of information.
And a live combat log in a new chat tab which shows you in real time what is happening throughout the fight, whether it be dealing damage, taking damage, healing, generating resources, draining resources, weapon swapping, etc.
I really wish we could get a combat text window like that on console as well. I believe it would help out a lot.
As to the Animation canceling I want to say thanks to DocFrost72 for posting such a detained post about what it is and isn't.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I dare to say it is really random. Sometimes I start OK and later while keeping my timing I start missing LAs, and the toon shows some strangely incomplete animation. Sometimes the whole test run is fine.DocFrost72 wrote: »How often would you say it happens?
That sounds like your ping bounces like mine. The best way to handle that would be ethernet (if you don't already have it) and practicing at different ping levels. You can see your frame rate and ping at any time by going to settings > interface and going to the very bottom. Keep your eye on that number, as if it climbs (as it often does in trials and vma for me) you're going to want to slow your actions accordingly and give a slightly bigger gap between light attacks and ability.InvictusApollo wrote: »Since we are talking about animation canceling - is there an addon that would show me a list of abilities used on me by my enemy? Preferably divided by enemy and time so that I could see at which point of his combo my enemy is.
I highly recommend Combat Metrics for anything and everything to do with combat. It includes,
Live readouts of your DPS, your group's DPS, the percentage of the group's DPS you're pulling, your average healing per second, how long you've been in combat for, etc.
An in-depth combat report where you can see your average and maximum stats over the period of the fight, how much damage you did in total, how much of that total damage was in critical strikes, what DPS you pulled on each target during the fight, what (de)buffs you both applied and received during the fight, the uptime of all (de)buffs, how much damage each of your skills did, how much of that damage was in critical strikes, how many times you used your abilities, what your resource generation and drain was like during the fight, etc. It is absolutely packed full of information.
And a live combat log in a new chat tab which shows you in real time what is happening throughout the fight, whether it be dealing damage, taking damage, healing, generating resources, draining resources, weapon swapping, etc.
I really wish we could get a combat text window like that on console as well. I believe it would help out a lot.
As to the Animation canceling I want to say thanks to DocFrost72 for posting such a detained post about what it is and isn't.
Thank you! And thanks to all that helped improve it as well!
Edited by DocFrost72 on February 27, 2019 4:17PM1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Ask yourself "does it make sense that the OP would add this to the discussion".
Yes, it makes a lot of sense to add in that a key attribute of animation cancelling is interruption of visual cues such that the visual cues do not match up with what is happening in the game. You mention this to some extent later on, but it would be really helpful to put it up front because it's a critical part of what animation cancelling is. Additionally, there's basically two ways games treat animation cancelling: (1) upon cancelling an animation, the effect associated with the ability does not fire because it was programmed to complete at the end of the animation, and (2) upon cancelling an animation, the effects associated with the ability DO fire because it was programmed to calculate immediately after player inputs or at the beginning of the animation. From what I can tell, ESO actually uses both of these methods. It would be worth letting players know that and also list out what abilities are affected by which model of animation cancelling. I wouldn't be the person to compile that list, so I'd definitely defer to someone more knowledgable on that issue. Basically what I am pointing out is that this paragraph could be further clarified:
Animation canceling is the act of halting or cutting short an action or a visual representation of an action by using the game's priority system. Such examples include blocking to react to a heavy attack after casting surprise attack, bar swapping to maintain a fluid rotation after casting endless hail, or using biting jabs after initiating a light attack to weave. Cutting short the visual representation of an action in ESO often removes combat cues, so it may appear to players that no attack or skill was being done even though the game registers damage or an effect. This happens because instant cast abilities and light attacks in ESO are designed to calculate their effects the moment they are initiated, not in the middle or towards the end of the animation. Not all abilities in ESO are designed this way, however, so animation cancelling interacts with them differently.
Then somewhere detail the various abilities of the game and how they interact with animation canceling in ESO. Basically an expansion of section 5 I guess? Again, I wouldn't be the person to make that list.0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
here is my feedback on this thread and subject, as you requested.DocFrost72 wrote: »
I'd also like feedback. Did I miss something? Is something here not accurate? Discuss it below.
none of what has been said here in this thread "can be, nor should be" considered "legitimate Law of this subject" and / or "cannon" because this thread is "fan made" and not the work of an elderscrolls online developer.
you can speculate and try to make threads like these "sound" or "look" to be the Law of any subject, but the fact remains this is purely speculation Even if you have Quotes it still is all the work of fans of the subject and players of the game, and not to be considered as credible Fact on the behalf of a developer.
makes for a very unfair disadvantage for anyone that has a differing belief or opinion.
Edited by Gilvoth on February 27, 2019 6:18PM0 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭none of what has been said here in this thread "can be, nor should be" considered "legitimate Law of this subject" and / or "cannon" because this thread is "fan made" and not the work of an elderscrolls online developer.
you can speculate and try to make threads like these "sound" or "look" to be the Law of any subject, but the fact remains this is purely speculation Even if you have Quotes it still is all the work of fans of the subject and players of the game, and not to be considered as credible Fact on the behalf of a developer.
makes for a very unfair disadvantage for anyone that has a differing belief or opinion.
If you disagree with anything here, you're welcome to explain where anything is wrong and why.
Just install CMX and look at the combat logs while canceling your animations, you can check every point by yourself. That's not like you would need to build a rocket by yourself to prove this one.
That's just sad to see people debating over false information, so here are the facts, as we know them, compiled from a knowledgeable player. Until now, this "model" hasn't been proven wrong, so you may as well consider it facts.
By the way, it's not speculation. It's just observations on how the game works.
There is no room for opinion in this particular thread. That's just knowledge. If you agree or disagree with Animation Canceling as a mechanic, there are plenty of threads.Edited by Elwendryll on February 27, 2019 6:57PMPC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
here is my feedback on this thread and subject, as you requested.DocFrost72 wrote: »
I'd also like feedback. Did I miss something? Is something here not accurate? Discuss it below.
none of what has been said here in this thread "can be, nor should be" considered "legitimate Law of this subject" and / or "cannon" because this thread is "fan made" and not the work of an elderscrolls online developer.
you can speculate and try to make threads like these "sound" or "look" to be the Law of any subject, but the fact remains this is purely speculation Even if you have Quotes it still is all the work of fans of the subject and players of the game, and not to be considered as credible Fact on the behalf of a developer.
makes for a very unfair disadvantage for anyone that has a differing belief or opinion.
If you read through the OP it would be clear to you that it is illegitimate to suggest AC is illegitimate.
OP created a clear and pretty concise acurate explanation of why AC is in the game and legitimate.
It is you that is speculating.Edited by idk on February 27, 2019 6:59PM0 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I saw a comment about how Capcom does animation in their games and if ESO has to have animation canceling it should work on doing it like Capcom does it.
Since I don't know much about it all, I can just say it has certain frames during animation that allow canceling. Sorry I cannot be much more help.
Edited by Red_Feather on February 27, 2019 7:31PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »I saw a comment about how Capcom does animation in their games and if ESO has to have animation canceling it should work on doing it like Capcom does it.
ESO has a control in place. The GCD that needs to pass before AC can happen. Skills with a cast time have a required time that must pass for the skill to actually fire if AC happens(after the GCD0.
So Zos has a system in place and I am pretty sure it is not the same as Capcom because this is not Capcom, fortunately.Edited by idk on February 27, 2019 7:31PM1 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »I saw a comment about how Capcom does animation in their games and if ESO has to have animation canceling it should work on doing it like Capcom does it.
So Zos has a system in place and I am pretty sure it is not the same as Capcom because this is not Capcom, fortunately.
Sounds like you are saying capcom doesn't know how to make fighting systems and zenimax does. Glad you cemented that into the internet here.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Red_Feather wrote: »I saw a comment about how Capcom does animation in their games and if ESO has to have animation canceling it should work on doing it like Capcom does it.
So Zos has a system in place and I am pretty sure it is not the same as Capcom because this is not Capcom, fortunately.
Sounds like you are saying capcom doesn't know how to make fighting systems and zenimax does. Glad you cemented that into the internet here.
Clearly reading things into what I said. lol I guess we need to spell things out to the minute detail to help some people.
Capcom makes very different games. Heck, they make good games but I do not want ESO to play like Monster Hunter.
I do like how you edited out the meat and potatoes of my statement you quoted because it was very inconvenient to your vague statement about how Capcom does things.
Edit: I played the first SF quite often back in the day. I am not going to read into your comments about Capcom that you think pressing a specific set of buttons causes a special attack to occur as I think it would be petty and irresponsible for me to do so.
Edited by idk on February 27, 2019 8:08PM0 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread xD
here is my feedback on this thread and subject, as you requested.DocFrost72 wrote: »
I'd also like feedback. Did I miss something? Is something here not accurate? Discuss it below.
none of what has been said here in this thread "can be, nor should be" considered "legitimate Law of this subject" and / or "cannon" because this thread is "fan made" and not the work of an elderscrolls online developer.
you can speculate and try to make threads like these "sound" or "look" to be the Law of any subject, but the fact remains this is purely speculation Even if you have Quotes it still is all the work of fans of the subject and players of the game, and not to be considered as credible Fact on the behalf of a developer.
makes for a very unfair disadvantage for anyone that has a differing belief or opinion.
Hang on, what?
It doesn't matter what anyone's *opinion* is, this is how the game is right now.
I don't think anyone who cannot simply press a key, then click a mouse button, should get to decide anything about how combat works in this game.
You basically need to press with left hand 1 key, then click with right hand one mouse button.
How is this a stumper?1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Ask yourself "does it make sense that the OP would add this to the discussion".
Yes, it makes a lot of sense to add in that a key attribute of animation cancelling is interruption of visual cues such that the visual cues do not match up with what is happening in the game. You mention this to some extent later on, but it would be really helpful to put it up front because it's a critical part of what animation cancelling is. Additionally, there's basically two ways games treat animation cancelling: (1) upon cancelling an animation, the effect associated with the ability does not fire because it was programmed to complete at the end of the animation, and (2) upon cancelling an animation, the effects associated with the ability DO fire because it was programmed to calculate immediately after player inputs or at the beginning of the animation. From what I can tell, ESO actually uses both of these methods. It would be worth letting players know that and also list out what abilities are affected by which model of animation cancelling. I wouldn't be the person to compile that list, so I'd definitely defer to someone more knowledgable on that issue. Basically what I am pointing out is that this paragraph could be further clarified:
Animation canceling is the act of halting or cutting short an action or a visual representation of an action by using the game's priority system. Such examples include blocking to react to a heavy attack after casting surprise attack, bar swapping to maintain a fluid rotation after casting endless hail, or using biting jabs after initiating a light attack to weave. Cutting short the visual representation of an action in ESO often removes combat cues, so it may appear to players that no attack or skill was being done even though the game registers damage or an effect. This happens because instant cast abilities and light attacks in ESO are designed to calculate their effects the moment they are initiated, not in the middle or towards the end of the animation. Not all abilities in ESO are designed this way, however, so animation cancelling interacts with them differently.
Then somewhere detail the various abilities of the game and how they interact with animation canceling in ESO. Basically an expansion of section 5 I guess? Again, I wouldn't be the person to make that list.
There is no cue to react to from an instant cast ability once it has already resolved, which was instantly...... you are getting hung up on things that are non factors. Every single ability in this gamenis labeled appropriately if it is channeled, has a hard cast or is instant. 2 seconds of use will show you this, it is completely redundant to request some kind of list like its this strange hidden element to combat when it absolutely is not.
If a NB is within melee range and uses surprise attack, you do not react to the visual cue since they have already met the criteria set forth by the game to activate the skill. Any follow through animation that is cut short with block, rolling or bar swaping is entirely inconsequential. Uppercut, hard cast frags etc have specifically designed visual queues to inform players whats happeningx and if you cancel the cast of these skills before the cast time completes, you get no yeild from the skill and are not charged its price. Likewise with channeled skills such as jesus beam, canceling the channel at any time will stop the ability and yeilds only as much as you channeled it for.
Again, there is nothing you can hide with a quick block or barswap for an isntant cast ability that would change the outcome for the recipient depsite what it looks like whats happening client side. When an isntant cast ability is used, visual queues dont matter from a defensive point of view as far as client server communication is concerned.2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand how some players think that this game can function without animation canceling. This game got a self buff rotation with global CD no skill CD and no macros(macros are wow method on animation canceling, GW2 don't have global CD and have a casting speed buff) . People freaked out when they game shields a casting time. Without animation canceling each self buff will feel like the shields with casting time. Now, do it for 4 defensive skills in a row and remember that some of them you need to activate every 6 sec.
Enjoy your game now.0