Axes and Swords, get changes, while maces remain useless?

JeibuKul

Does ZOS no longer recognize maces/mauls/hammers as a weapon, especially since they are the LEAST used and the bonuses from them apparently do almost nothing?

Weapon
Two Handed
Heavy Weapons:
Reduced the bleed applied from the Axe version of this passive by approximately 12%.
Increased the increased damage bonus from the Sword version of this passive to 6%.
Momentum: Fixed an issue where the healing from this ability and its morphs were unintentionally procing melee attack-related requirements.
Dual Wield
Twin Blade and Blunt:
Reduced the bleed applied from the Axe version of this passive by approximately 12%.
Increased the increased damage bonus from the Sword version of this passive to 3% per sword equipped.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
The axe version of both Twin Blade and Heavy Weapons were previously over budgeted and provided more total damage to your target than the other weapon types. Additionally, the bleeds applied from these weapons were performing well against all armor types, rather than focusing on being better against only targets with high Physical Resistance. We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide.

The sword version of both of these passives were also under budgeted since their bonuses were additive. We’ve increased this to 6% in the meantime to fix some truncation issues with Dual Wield, and will continue to investigate ways to ensure swords remain a viable choice of weapon type.

From my limited experience, most people already say Sword is the way to go anyway.. so they get a buff?

KommandantViy

I'm not happy with the axe nerf. If I'm given the option between an additional mechanic (axe bleed) or a flat numbers boost (sword damage increase), I generally will choose the additional mechanic as it makes the game feel more varied. If this ends up making axe-dagger no longer viable in the face of dual swords, I will be very sad. It's not like you even choose what weapon you like based on looks anymore with the whole outfit system thing, so I really hope they keep it balanced so it's more about personal choice on how you want your weapons to affect combat.

redspecter23

It would have been nice for maces to get some love. Perhaps they were minimizing the variables for this pass. Changing up all the 1 handed weapon types all at once may have thrown things out of whack too far in one direction. The hope is that they see how swords and axes fit in now, then come and adjust maces when the dust has settled.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

KommandantViy

For maces I'm just not entirely sure what specifically they could do to them to make them viable. Thematically you'd expect them to do what maces and such did in RL, which is to essentially ignore armor for the most part. The problem with this however is that 1) enemies either don't have enough armor that any bonus armor penetration from this would be worth it over using axes, daggers, or swords, and 2) most classes have access to fracturing abilities anyway, which would further reduce the overall effectiveness of maces

JeibuKul

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

kringled_1

Also, that thread was made before the Summerset changes to nmg and sunderflame. So the amount of total debuffs you can get now is noticeably smaller.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

kringled_1 wrote: »

Also, that thread was made before the Summerset changes to nmg and sunderflame. So the amount of total debuffs you can get now is noticeably smaller.

Which makes mauls more efficient, then mauls used to be.

JeibuKul

But even in that thread you linked, they are not best if an enemy is fully debuffed. Which is why I asked the question even earlier this month, in this thread. With what little math my newbie self could find.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457108/help-with-pve-penetration-and-hammers-mauls

So why isn't the meta mace? You make it sound like it should be.

Holycannoli

Swords should be the worst choice vs heavy armor, maces generally the best. This game's combat system isn't sophisticated enough to differentiate though.

DAOC had a really good system of weapons vs armors. You wanted thrust vs chain armor not cut (swords), and crush (maces) vs plate.

Maybe mace critical hits can stagger? Just an idea.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

JeibuKul wrote: »

But even in that thread you linked, they are not best if an enemy is fully debuffed. Which is why I asked the question even earlier this month, in this thread. With what little math my newbie self could find.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457108/help-with-pve-penetration-and-hammers-mauls

So why isn't the meta mace? You make it sound like it should be.

the meta is dagger, becuase crit scales better then either pen or a percent amps(swords) in a group. that part is important. in a group. when you are by yourself and/or in a aoe situation, mauls will generally give you better damage.


some more thoughts and math-

@Masel



This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

on the topic of all those debuffs, here is that same person from that thread, @Masel on that topic-

A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.

Vertilvius

Mauls/mace are really good for PvP people just don't use them bc they don't show anything on stat sheet.

T3hasiangod

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

Maces are still absolute garbage compared to daggers in ST situations. And in trash, you will have Major Fracture + Alkosh, so you're already sitting at 8k penetration from debuffs.

There is almost no instance where maces are going to be stronger than daggers in PvE.

For PvP though, smashing someone's face in with a hammer is still fun.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

Maces are still absolute garbage compared to daggers in ST situations. And in trash, you will have Major Fracture + Alkosh, so you're already sitting at 8k penetration from debuffs.

There is almost no instance where maces are going to be stronger than daggers in PvE.

For PvP though, smashing someone's face in with a hammer is still fun.

I am not saying that mauls are better then daggers in every scenario, but you calling them garbage is just nonsense and hyperbolic.

T3hasiangod

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

Maces are still absolute garbage compared to daggers in ST situations. And in trash, you will have Major Fracture + Alkosh, so you're already sitting at 8k penetration from debuffs.

There is almost no instance where maces are going to be stronger than daggers in PvE.

For PvP though, smashing someone's face in with a hammer is still fun.

I am not saying that mauls are better then daggers in every scenario, but you calling them garbage is just nonsense and hyperbolic.

No, it's just fact. Daggers are mathematically superior to maces in nearly all potential scenarios in PvE raid environment. There is literally no reason to run maces in trials when daggers provide more DPS.

Daggers are stronger in ST scenarios. Daggers are stronger in AoE scenarios.

There is no reason to run maces at all. Stating otherwise is misinformation and misleading.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

Maces are still absolute garbage compared to daggers in ST situations. And in trash, you will have Major Fracture + Alkosh, so you're already sitting at 8k penetration from debuffs.

There is almost no instance where maces are going to be stronger than daggers in PvE.

For PvP though, smashing someone's face in with a hammer is still fun.

I am not saying that mauls are better then daggers in every scenario, but you calling them garbage is just nonsense and hyperbolic.

No, it's just fact. Daggers are mathematically superior to maces in nearly all potential scenarios in PvE raid environment. There is literally no reason to run maces in trials when daggers provide more DPS.

Daggers are stronger in ST scenarios. Daggers are stronger in AoE scenarios.

There is no reason to run maces at all. Stating otherwise is misinformation and misleading.

Now you are getting into specific scenarios. The op says "most people". Fact is most people would actually benefit from maces pen, as most people do not run raids like you do. Do you have any direct comments on what @Masel has said on this subject in the past?

Nemesis7884

Why make axes even weaker and swords even stronger... i dont get that logic

T3hasiangod

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JeibuKul wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sword is absolutely not the way to go. In most cases mauls are better.

Please elaborate because everyone i have asked, and including the forum thread I made. The conclusion was that the bonus for maces was pretty much made pointless based on when their bonus was calculated (which is apparently last?). Of course, unless you are just trolling.

My God would people stop bringing the "just trolling" crap out for everything.

Read here and get educated.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367589/why-maces-are-not-as-bad-in-pve-as-most-consider-them-to-be-analysis

Maces are still absolute garbage compared to daggers in ST situations. And in trash, you will have Major Fracture + Alkosh, so you're already sitting at 8k penetration from debuffs.

There is almost no instance where maces are going to be stronger than daggers in PvE.

For PvP though, smashing someone's face in with a hammer is still fun.

I am not saying that mauls are better then daggers in every scenario, but you calling them garbage is just nonsense and hyperbolic.

No, it's just fact. Daggers are mathematically superior to maces in nearly all potential scenarios in PvE raid environment. There is literally no reason to run maces in trials when daggers provide more DPS.

Daggers are stronger in ST scenarios. Daggers are stronger in AoE scenarios.

There is no reason to run maces at all. Stating otherwise is misinformation and misleading.

Now you are getting into specific scenarios. The op says "most people". Fact is most people would actually benefit from maces pen, as most people do not run raids like you do. Do you have any direct comments on what @Masel has said on this subject in the past?

If you're talking about 4-man or solo content, you can faceroll through that stuff on even a lazily optimized build. Like running Juli + Acuity + Skoria provides enough DPS to blow through 90 percent of group content in the game. You don't need to optimize for solo content or 4-man outside of DSA/BRP.

The math is right, but the interpretation is completely off track. In a group that even has poor Alkosh uptime, daggers are going to out-pace maces.

TBois

Maces are fine. They are really nice in pvp. Pve will always use meta setup based on math so there will always be a worst weapon.