Wrathstone Racial Changes, Flawed Mathematics, Misinformation, and Suggestions

  • alexj4596b14_ESO
    alexj4596b14_ESO
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    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    Pevey wrote: »
    I agree with all of the suggestions and would also add:

    Redguards should be given some weapon damage to return them to their rightful place as a top-tier stam dps. (they are the warrior race, should not be behind dunmer!)

    Imperial is still terrible. They should not be shoehorned into tanking, especially since as you pointed out so well any race can tank. They need something for dps. But I sound like a broken record here.

    I haven't personally tested this but I think that Redguards and Bosmer are actually going to deal more damage compared to Orcs and Dunmer on classes and rotations that are more resource-intensive, such as Stamina Sorcerer, especially when using gold food, which is mathematically the most powerful food a DPS can use.

    Imperials are actually already most of the way there on Stamina DPS. The resource return and reduced ability cost makes them closer to Redguards, though it definitely doesn't hold a candle to Redguard Adrenaline Rush. I think just a bit of extra Weapon Damage (replace some of their Health) would put them in the middle between Redguards and Orcs in terms of DPS for both sustainable and resource-intensive rotations.

    Interesting feedback, thanks. I have been planning to use the race change tokens to move some of my characters around rather than actually get rid of any except in one case. For instance, my redguard NB will become a breton and respec to mag, but her name and appearance will be used on my stam sorc.
    Edited by Pevey on February 22, 2019 8:40PM
  • Oathunbound
    Oathunbound
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    Yea its unfortunate when great info backed up with thorough testing will either be ignored because the person posting it itsnt as well known or it is seen as biased towards a particular race. It seems to me that zos hit the mark and got some races right in terms of viability but really just winged it with others.

    Granted the numbers only truely matter when it comes to competive end game trial score runs but the perception of meta or gtfo is only getting worse. I'm fully for just getting rid of fixed racials and let us pick a package from the racial perks already in place, just move any resistances to the base racial and that will solve alot of issues.

    But it seems we will be stuck with what they will roll out for quite some time. I hope I'm wrong and they will keep tweeking until the balance is much more in line, but their track record goes against that happening.
  • TheInfernalRage
    TheInfernalRage
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    You can not, in any way, tell me that Argonians have the potential to out-damage Altmer "due to human error and differing testing environments", especially when my full month of testing has reflected stats and numbers that have been consistent the entire time.

    They don't and they don't have to. That's exactly the point. Nord, Argonian and Imperial outperforming Altmer / Dunmer / Orc / Redguard etc. when it comes to damage wouldn't make any sense as that is not the main purpose of those races / their racials. What would be the reason to pick any of the pure damage races then? There needs to be a difference somewhere.

    I like that you put so much thoughts into your post and I appreciate that.

    But your in some parts entitled attitude and indirectly shaming one of your "testing fellows" and a Class Rep (everybody who followed the forums in the last weeks about this topic knows exactly who your post is about) is a questionable addition to this thread/topic.

    And thus the real point of the OP gets revealed.
  • Tib
    Tib
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    There have been plenty of mentions of a series of tests done by a specific player (not saying who) using an entirely flawed testing methodology, and the ESO forums community has gobbled it all up. When the state of peer-review becomes so bad that even one of our Class Representatives (again, not saying who) is spreading misinformation through their flawed mathematics and false claims, you know that this "racial passive balance" is going nowhere.
    Also, I added in the comments about the misinformation because I am tired of all the BS that has been spread. I at least double check my facts and make sure my calculations are correct, and make corrections if I'm wrong. My "entitled" attitude is backed up by a ton of research, testing, and calculations, and I don't recall if I've ever been wrong with my calculations. In fact, if any errors in my analyses do come up, I address the issue, fix my mistakes, and give credit to whoever points it out.

    Challenge accepted.

    Holy ****

    Grabs popcorn!!!

    ^^^^^
    ~Tibbie~
    Senior Achievement Seeker, Scholar of UESP and the laziest trader in Tamriel
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  • DoobZ69
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    I agree with the reasoning and the conclusions but I do not agree with the suggestions because they are not backed up with solid enough evidence.

    I assume that my reasoning, conclusions, and testing results are evidence enough, but it seems you need more from me to convince you.


    Argonians:
    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. Restore 4000 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
    Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. Wrath of the Hist: Upon receiving healing, gain 5% Weapon and Spell Critical for 5 seconds. OR Upon receiving healing, gain 129/200 Weapon and Spell Damage for 5 seconds.

    Several changes I've listed here. First of all, I want to give them an additional 1000 Max Stamina. Argonians have always been something of a hybrid race with their sustain, and since Dunmer and Khajiit are now the same way, I see no reason not to have Argonians be brought up closer to their level, with the lowest damage and highest sustain.

    Secondly, what made Argonians strong as tanks and at PvP in the first place was their tri-stat sustain. Their first PTS iteration of it nerfed the Live 4600 Resources per potion down to 3600, so about 80 resources/s, and I thought that was a healthy amount; then they buffed it back up to 4000 (88 resources/s) because they realized that their nerfs were too heavy-handed. The thing is that this just retains their pain-point in PvP while still being an overall nerf to PvE, and PvE is something they absolutely do not need a nerf in, what with the buffs to other races taking their roles already.

    Thirdly, as I've stated, Healing Done is way too niche of a stat; it does nothing for any role except for healers, and the fact of the matter is that healers in raids already have more than enough healing power.

    Rather, I would trade that for more damage, since that is the exact role they have been lacking in the entire time. I've put in two different choices, either Critical Chance or raw Damage; Critical Chance gives damage without really buffing their PvP ability too much (since Critical Chance isn't too powerful in PvP), and Spell+Wep Damage gives them more consistent damage and healing. I've also made them proc only when healing is received just to maintain the lore consistency and also to make people work a bit more for it in PvP by keeping heals on themselves.

    I also suggested giving them additional 2s of any Major buffs they apply to the group; it makes them a bit more viable for tanking, healing, and DPS, without intruding too far into those roles and disrupting the rankings.

    I hope this is enough.

    Thanks for the break-down. I'll focus on the Argonian just for now to keep it simple. I'll add the full list here (of your suggestion) for my own sanity.

    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
    Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. ( this is still on the PTS so I've added here because you haven't mentioned changing it.)
    Upon receiving healing, gain 5% Weapon and Spell Critical for 5 seconds. (i'll stick with this one because its consistent as opposed to 129/200 weap/spell damage)

    Here's my thoughts on this:
    Resourceful: Works for all roles. Has lower stats compared to focused races such as Orc and High Elf. An alternative sustain compared to Breton/Redguard, not as strong but covers all rss. Unique strength of being an "oh ***" button or a consistent sustain. Allows for build focus diversity (focus on dps/sustain/pot enchants). Can be an absolute 1-fight U-turner or at least always a strong advantage.
    Argonian Resistance: Works for all roles. Ironically should be on par with Altmer or Poison resistance compared to the Bosmer in the lore. A definite bonus for PvP and some tanking.
    Wrath of the Hist: On paper appears to work for all roles but actually doesn't help healers all that much and requires you to be healed. This is slightly lop-sided away from healing and swings in the opposite direction of what they are now. I don't agree with this change because I think this is the reason Khajiit crit % got taken away - it wasn't useful to healing. It just leaves it up in the air and not entirely clear, leaving a mark for required future alteration. Is taking a pot a form of healing received? These kinds of questions.

    Final thoughts: You've hit the universal role application pretty nicely, par the final one which brushes off healers. The pot racial is still a pain point at 3600 and its not the numbers that are the problem, its the design itself. Its hard to justify giving it a return over time because it benefits those who chug it on the timer more and the "oh ***" users get punished. Sustain builders benefit if you change it to a rss % gain increase, tanks will suffer. Changing the strength of the pot just creates a myriad of other problems. Its tied to taking a potion, a cost, so a problem in itself. I would go as far as to say they should get the ultimate generation which the Nords got (5 ultimate when hit, every 10 seconds) instead and the Nords get their drinking racial, but this is too radical of a notion and leaves sustain out of the equation and because Argonians have low max stats it just damns them. Maybe tie it to food/drink strength increase instead of potions. I dunno. You've said it rightly - the potion is a blessing and a curse. Its too OP in some instances and makes them garbage Elsewyr. So seems nice but doesn't quite hit the nail. Rework the pot racial completely, rethink Wrath of the Hist to be hybrid/universal, whatever you want to call it, advocate for Poison resistance on "lore" grounds (just personal opinion). And at the end of the day what do you want Argonians to be? Because you're happy for the DPS races to excel you can't say a non-DPS race can also excel. So if HE is mag (eg.) and Orc is stam (eg.) then Argonian has to be poopie at both. That's just how my logic works.

    B-
  • Ankaridan
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    In a game that is part of the "Elder Scrolls" franchise, racial identity is always going to be a big draw and a huge part of the enjoyment of the game. However, with these changes, raiders would be more incentivized to switch to a race they don't like to play or risk being removed from the core teams they raid in. This is already a problem currently in Murkmire, with certain groups being so *** as to kick people for playing a Khajiit rather than a Redguard. I myself have been removed from a vCR progression team simply for running an Argonian DPS, even though I have repeatedly demonstrated my skill and ability as a DPS and have cleared vCR+3 multiple times. When the entire ESO community goes up in arms about only receiving one race-change token for this update, it means that whatever changes that are coming aren't balanced.

    Agreed. This is the single biggest concern I have coming into the new racial rebalancing.
    xaraan wrote: »
    Great post. And I'd say pretty much right on the money with my feelings.

    Also agreed.

    My ability to critically deconstruct and analyze the various studies performed, as opposed to accepting it as presented, is sadly limited. So whether HatchetHaro is more or less correct than the other poster is not something I can comment on.

    But his statements, and sentiments, as well Xaraan's, I adamantly support and agree with. I've seen a lot of flavour commentary from "knowledgeable sources" recently that does not sit well with me, and I deeply respect that someone is willing to call it out. I also agree that too much of current 'gameplay meta' is sourced on the basis of a popularity contest.
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    Wrath of the Hist: On paper appears to work for all roles but actually doesn't help healers all that much and requires you to be healed. This is slightly lop-sided away from healing and swings in the opposite direction of what they are now. I don't agree with this change because I think this is the reason Khajiit crit % got taken away - it wasn't useful to healing. It just leaves it up in the air and not entirely clear, leaving a mark for required future alteration. Is taking a pot a form of healing received? These kinds of questions.

    Why do you think it's not useful for healers? Are healers banned from healing themselves?
    Or do you think spell damage doesn't affect healing? Because it absolutely does.

    This is how the healing power of Healing Springs is calculated:
    Summon restoring spirits with your staff, healing you and your allies in the target area for $1 Health and an additional $2 Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. You restore 273 Magicka for each friendly target hit by the initial heal, up to a maximum of 3 targets.

    $1/$2 = (0.0309941 Magicka + 0.324186 SD + 1.54021) [*multipliers]
    (Magicka, R2 = 0.999997, ratio = 10.46)
    129 spell damage would be about on par with 3% healing done.

    Personally tho I'd now prefer a 'longer buff duration' racial as that would be slightly more unique.

    Khajiit crit% wasn't taken away because it wasn't useful for healing (it was useful for healers btw as crit affects healing). The crit change was, as far as people can tell, because of the Shadow mundus.

    Edited by phantasmalD on February 23, 2019 10:10AM
  • idk
    idk
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    I have to agree that the OP is a very good read and some points made are very much what many raiders are discussing. The suggestions, as OP suggested, will probably not go very far since it is so close to launch of the update. However, I think it really needs the attention of the class reps to get actual traction with Zos anyhow. That seems to be mostly what Zos has listened to when considering feedback from the forums.

    I also like how they pointed out misinformation and the forums have been full of misinformation and twisting's things.
    Really, idk
  • Faulgor
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    I'm just glad we have such data-focused lively debates, even though I'm not qualified enough to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    But I do agree with the general pain points of the current racial passives, namely that Altmer, Khajiit, Nord and Argonians deserve another look (as well as Bosmer, although for slightly different reasons). These also seem to be the races that come up continously in feedback. Imperials which were always a problem child before seem to have been buffed to satisfaction, so there's no reason to think this shouldn't happen for others as well.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    It's crazy that we are comparing Altmer and Dunmer viability based on whether stamina regen or stamina pool is better. This on classes that were purely magicka-based on live. It makes some sense with Dunmer, but with Altmer, it's beyond lore-breaking.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 23, 2019 1:42PM
  • The_Lex
    The_Lex
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    While I dislike the Altmer change, it's not completely unprecedented, lore wise.

    In Skyrim's Companions quest line, you can read a lore book in Jorrvaskr entitled "Great Harbingers" written by Swyk the Long-Sighted. In this book, you learn of one of the most honored Harbingers...an elf by the name of Henantier the Outsider. He was considered a fierce warrior who "taught" the Companions honor. On his deathbed, his successor said that even an elf can be born with the heart of a Nord. Although it does not say if he was an Altmer, Hernantier is an Altmer name.

    My point is that he was clearly a fierce non-magical warrior, i.e., stamina-based. If there was one stamina Altmer, then there were others. Although I dislike the Altmer changes, it is not completely lore-breaking.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Great_Harbingers

    Edited by The_Lex on February 23, 2019 2:31PM
    PC NA | @The_Lex
    Guilds:
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    Fengrush Inc
    Moar Dottz
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    Characters (PC NA):

    Dragonknight
    Vaaljørn | Nord Dragonknight | Tank/Stamina DPS | EP

    Necromancer
    Martok Bloodytusk | Orc Necromancer | Stamina DPS | DC

    Nightblade
    Dro-Zhirr | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina DPS | EP
    R'jhirr the Wanderer | Khajiit Nightblade | Magicka DPS | DC

    Sorcerer
    Worf of Sto'Vo'Kor | Orc Sorcerer | Stamina DPS | EP
    Maldarin Direnni | Altmer Sorcerer | Magicka DPS | EP

    Templar
    Vaanrith | Dunmer Templar | Crafter | EP
    Brejan Garak | Breton Templar | Healer | EP

    Warden
    Hallbjörn Stormblade | Nord Warden | Stamina DPS | EP
    Hannibal Travan | Breton Warden | Magicka DPS | EP
  • therift
    therift
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    "They brought results to the table but the tests they used that brought those results are flawed and in no way represent the real differences in DPS across races. They have failed to factor in human error, the variance from critical chance, and even the variance from Minor Vulnerability which they are even unaware of, and they have used a testing methodology that absolutely does not emulate the end-game raiding scene. Their numbers vary up to 6k between parses and the fluctuating data alone makes their results unreliable."

    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
  • Imryll
    Imryll
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    Thanks for a good read! I'd like to have the opportunity to test the changes you suggest.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    The_Lex wrote: »
    While I dislike the Altmer change, it's not completely unprecedented, lore wise.

    In Skyrim's Companions quest line, you can read a lore book in Jorrvaskr entitled "Great Harbingers" written by Swyk the Long-Sighted. In this book, you learn of one of the most honored Harbingers...an elf by the name of Henantier the Outsider. He was considered a fierce warrior who "taught" the Companions honor. On his deathbed, his successor said that even an elf can be born with the heart of a Nord. Although it does not say if he was an Altmer, Hernantier is an Altmer name.

    My point is that he was clearly a fierce non-magical warrior, i.e., stamina-based. If there was one stamina Altmer, then there were others. Although I dislike the Altmer changes, it is not completely lore-breaking.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Great_Harbingers

    @The_Lex The problem I see here though is that racial passives are supposed to reflect the race on average and all of their inherent traits. Shalidor was a great nord mage and one of the greatest to have ever lived and yet he was a nord. He is an exception to the rule, but even he has a greater resistance to frost. Similarly there are well trained Altmer, but even they are more frail and have less stamina than a Nord with the same lifestyle. That Altmer can be warriors too is already being reflected enough by the fact that you can equip stamina weapons and spec into stamina on an Altmer.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 23, 2019 5:40PM
  • The_Lex
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    The_Lex wrote: »
    While I dislike the Altmer change, it's not completely unprecedented, lore wise.

    In Skyrim's Companions quest line, you can read a lore book in Jorrvaskr entitled "Great Harbingers" written by Swyk the Long-Sighted. In this book, you learn of one of the most honored Harbingers...an elf by the name of Henantier the Outsider. He was considered a fierce warrior who "taught" the Companions honor. On his deathbed, his successor said that even an elf can be born with the heart of a Nord. Although it does not say if he was an Altmer, Hernantier is an Altmer name.

    My point is that he was clearly a fierce non-magical warrior, i.e., stamina-based. If there was one stamina Altmer, then there were others. Although I dislike the Altmer changes, it is not completely lore-breaking.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Great_Harbingers

    @The_Lex The problem I see here though is that racial passives are supposed to reflect the race on average and all of their inherent traits. Shalidor was a great nord mage and one of the greatest to have ever lived and yet he was a nord. He is an exception to the rule, but even he has a greater resistance to frost. Similarly there are well trained Altmer, but even they are more frail and have less stamina than a Nord with the same lifestyle. That Altmer can be warriors too is already being reflected enough by the fact that you can equip stamina weapons and spec into stamina on an Altmer.

    I don't disagree. My point was to refute those who claim that it's completely and totally lore breaking. Well, no it's not, really.

    Edited by The_Lex on February 23, 2019 5:47PM
    PC NA | @The_Lex
    Guilds:
    Tamriel Vault
    Fengrush Inc
    Moar Dottz
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    Characters (PC NA):

    Dragonknight
    Vaaljørn | Nord Dragonknight | Tank/Stamina DPS | EP

    Necromancer
    Martok Bloodytusk | Orc Necromancer | Stamina DPS | DC

    Nightblade
    Dro-Zhirr | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina DPS | EP
    R'jhirr the Wanderer | Khajiit Nightblade | Magicka DPS | DC

    Sorcerer
    Worf of Sto'Vo'Kor | Orc Sorcerer | Stamina DPS | EP
    Maldarin Direnni | Altmer Sorcerer | Magicka DPS | EP

    Templar
    Vaanrith | Dunmer Templar | Crafter | EP
    Brejan Garak | Breton Templar | Healer | EP

    Warden
    Hallbjörn Stormblade | Nord Warden | Stamina DPS | EP
    Hannibal Travan | Breton Warden | Magicka DPS | EP
  • zaria
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    It's crazy that we are comparing Altmer and Dunmer viability based on whether stamina regen or stamina pool is better. This on classes that were purely magicka-based on live. It makes some sense with Dunmer, but with Altmer, it's beyond lore-breaking.
    Yes Dunmer are hybrids. it give them extra stamina as magic build because of that, its an rater weak utility.
    On the other hand the old magic regen was to OP. +10% to shield strength or other utility is probably better.

    And the Argonian buff is way to strong as you have some incoming heal up all the time. Compare it to SPC.
    Yes Argonians need an buff, but knowing the limit is kind of important.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Quick correction, Disease damage can only apply *Minor Defile, not Major.

    Major Defile can only be applied as a direct effect of abilities, sets, and poisons
  • alexj4596b14_ESO
    alexj4596b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Thank you sir, so Argos are still we even more now a prime PvP class.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jhalin wrote: »
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Quick correction, Disease damage can only apply *Minor Defile, not Major.

    Major Defile can only be applied as a direct effect of abilities, sets, and poisons
    I only went by the data on Alcast's site, where it says Major Defile: https://alcasthq.com/eso-status-effects/

    Just asked a few other people and they said Major as well.
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Thank you sir, so Argos are still we even more now a prime PvP class.
    Naw. Argonians already have both immunities on Live, so if anything, they're still nerfed in terms of PvP.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 23, 2019 6:23PM
  • alexj4596b14_ESO
    alexj4596b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Jhalin wrote: »
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Quick correction, Disease damage can only apply *Minor Defile, not Major.

    Major Defile can only be applied as a direct effect of abilities, sets, and poisons
    I only went by the data on Alcast's site, where it says Major Defile: https://alcasthq.com/eso-status-effects/

    Just asked a few other people and they said Major as well.

    Thanks for the heads up, though; I'll test it some time later and correct it if it turns out to be Minor.
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Thank you sir, so Argos are still we even more now a prime PvP class.
    Naw. Argonians already have both immunities on Live, so if anything, they're still nerfed in terms of PvP.

    I guess I'm finally understanding why people are so up in arms about Argos. Hmm poison resist glyf?
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Jhalin wrote: »
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Quick correction, Disease damage can only apply *Minor Defile, not Major.

    Major Defile can only be applied as a direct effect of abilities, sets, and poisons
    I only went by the data on Alcast's site, where it says Major Defile: https://alcasthq.com/eso-status-effects/

    Just asked a few other people and they said Major as well.
    therift wrote: »
    This.

    As soon as I see a test in which a table of parses are averaged for comparison, I know the test conclusions are flawed. Averaging is incorrect since it will be skewed by uncontrolled variables in the parses and by any datum that that varies significantly from the mean.

    Do not average your data. Find the mean, calculate standard deviation, and only then are you on the path to a reliable conclusion.

    All these 'tests' using averaged data and relying on "I'm really consistent with rotations" are Dewey Defeats Truman results. In short, useless for purposes of analysis.

    However, the charts of unreliable results are pretty.
    Actually, if the data is consistent enough, the mean/average is actually often an accurate representation of the results. I mean (ha ha), I represent my results this way as well, but I also prioritize consistency and transparency of data.

    I think your issue with the "averages" isn't about the averages being flawed, but rather the skewing of results that is the average of flawed data.

    Otherwise, I think I understand your point and would agree with you.

    @HatchetHaro

    I hope I did this right..I don't normally tag people. I have only just made a Warden Lizard Specifically for PvP. I would like to ask a question. What would the balance difference if they were given poison resistant and and immunity instead of disease.

    also why make the DPS passive change Procy?
    Sorry it took me a while to respond.

    Disease resistance means that you don't get the Diseased status effect that applies a Major Defile (30% less healing received) on you.
    Poison resistance means you don't get the Poisoned status effect which is just damage-over-time.

    In general, the Disease resistance is better for PvP because it completely negates that healing debuff. People generally like to run the Disease glyph in PvP just to apply that status effect, and it makes getting healed back up so much harder for the target, so gaining immunity to that is quite a big deal.

    I believe that Poison resistance is better for PvE. Now, you don't have to care about any Poison damage in most situations in PvE since your healers should take care of you no problem. The only reason why I think it is a tiny bit useful for PvE is that there is a long-running bug in Sanctum Ophidia where you have a tiny chance of getting one-shot while having the troll poison on you; the Poison resistance negates that entirely. Take this with a grain of salt, though; this is just pure speculation based on the fact that I've never died to that bug on my Argonian.

    So yes, the balance would be different. The Diseased status effect is quite a big thing in PvP.

    Thank you sir, so Argos are still we even more now a prime PvP class.
    Naw. Argonians already have both immunities on Live, so if anything, they're still nerfed in terms of PvP.

    Wow, you’re right. Just read the wiki and apparently a genius decided the widely available Disease damage should give a Major debuff, what in the absolute hell?

    Those secondary effects should be changed to Minor, that’s ridiculous
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