Save the Bosmer!

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

No, it is not fine

max_only · February 2019

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

I like new bosmer and i am changing my pvp characters to bosmer. Finally there is passive that is not useful only for one class - nb.

Stealth radius reduction was not useful for just one class, it helped all Bosmer play any class they want and still participate in the Rite of Theft. Nb is the only class that DIDN’T use it lol

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Race is fine. Im using it on my pvp magden next patch.

Have you tested how close 3 meters of stealth detection is? I have. You’ll still have to slot Magelight (twice the radius btw), this passive isn’t going to save you a bar spot.

I’m happy about the rolling and the penetration for pvp too, doesn’t mean that the detection is useful in any way shape or form.

I don't care about the detection. Its just an added feature to me. I just care about the max stam, recovery and roll dodge speed. Im still gonna be using inner light anyway because of major prophecy, increased max magicka and mag regen.

So why are you wasting time? No one is talking about the slab of steak, we are talking about the side dish of dung that was served with it. Just let them serve it with a veggie like we’ve been expecting, at least some people will eat a veggie side dish - as opposed to no one eating the dung.

because it's fine.

Ok. Cool story bro.

Uryel · February 2019

Want reasons to keep stealth, eh ? Allright, I'll play along. Brace yourselves, wall of text is coming.

So, this is the ONLY change I am going to discuss here :

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m […] → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m.

Please note that I left out the previous damage bonus from stealth or the new speed bonus from dodge roll, or any other change whatsoever. I’m ONLY discussing the removal of stealth. I couldn't care less about dodge roll, bonus damage from stealth, whatever. For all I care, a damage reduction when drunk could replace the dodge roll or anything, I wouldn't care. I'm ONLY talking about stealth itself.

1 – Removing stealth goes against the lore

It might be weird to open a plead against stat changes with the lore, but it’s the Elder Scrolls we’re talking about here, not just any game. It’s one of the longest standing, most established game series, and certainly one with the richest and most beloved lore. So it does matter. Maybe not to everyone, but to some.

The Maths Team has been using the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from the Bosmers, saying « they are good hunters so they need to see stuff », and thus they want to replace a bonus to stealth by a bonus to stealth detection. But that doesn’t make sense, neither lore-wise not hunt-wise.

As someone pointed elsewhere, a hunter is stealthy. Bosmers are hunters out of necessity from the Green Pact. Animals don’t sneak around, hunters do. It’s all about remaining hidden while the prey is blissfully unaware of your presence. Bosmers are exceptionnal hunters because they are amazing archers, even sometimes credited to having invented the bow, and because no one and nothing knows they are there before they strike. That's stealth at its finest.

But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.

Morrowind ? Stealthy Bosmers. Oblivion ? Stealthy Bosmers. Skyrim ? Stealthy Bosmers. Elder Scrolls Online, at least up to early 2019, and hopefully much later on ? Stealthy Bosmers.

But this could just be game habits and tropes, so let’s look at the lore behind it :

- The Jaqspurs are elite scout troops and hunters ("words and philosophy" book in the Elder Scrolls games), and a scout is... Stealthy, yes. A scout that is seen isn't of much use.
- They are known as thieves ("Valenwood : a study"), to the point even a bosmer shopkeeper will be wary of another bosmer entering their shop. And thieves are stealthy.
- They are known to be very adept at hiding, at the very least in woodlands ("Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion" and "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Wild Region").
- They are famous for their guerrila tactics, which require stealth. Couldn’t find the book that references it, though.
- Their most famous poem / epic is titled "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding"
- They do worship Baan Dar, the trickster spirit they borrowed from the Khajiits.
- And last but certainly not least, their most well-known rite is "the rite of theft".

And so on. Seriously, if one was to boil down Bosmers to 3 points, it would be that they are amazing archers, they are amazing at stealth, and they don't eat or even damage any plant. Stealth is integral to Bosmers.

So please, Maths Team, do not use the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from them, it doesn’t work. Stealth is probably even MORE a part of the Bosmers than even their hunting ability. They have « the rite of theft », not « the rite of hunt ».

2 – This change is entirely useless in PvE and only marginally useful in PvP

As per @ZOS_Gilliam ‘s own words, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!) ».

Indeed, there are exactly ZERO enemies in PvE that do sneak. None that I have ever encountered, at least, and I’ve been playing for almost 4 years now. The only times an enemy goes « sneaking » is when you meet a nightblade NPC that cloaks. So, in PvE, stealth detection is entirely useless, since nothing sneaks. Ever. As for the cloaking nightblade mob, you don’t need to detect stealth, since you KNOW they are coming at you while cloaked. You just need either an AoE damage or a timely block.

So, the new racial passive is absolutely, completely, entirely useless in PvE. And that’s made even worse by the fact that, aside from the insignificant +1% Alliance Point gain the Bretons have, there is no other racial passive that has no use in PvE.

As a PvE-only player, I am not pleased by a change that I percieved as only good for PvP, but others, more PvP-versed than I am, have commented that it is also useless in PvP. From what I understand, stealth detection is only marginally used in PvP, and having it on the Bosmers might even make things worse. One of the reported major annoyances I read about was the sniping sneaky bosmers archers. One of the most obvious ways to dispose of a sniper is to sneak upon them to backstab them, but this might be even more complicated if they see you coming even easier than before. But I really am not all that well versed in PvP, so I’ll let the experts discuss that point.

What I think about the ganking archer PvP "problem", though, is that within a week of the change gankers will have switched to Khajiit to make use of the crit bonus instead. Gankers gonna gank. This will solve nothing, but will hurt people who made use of stealth outside of PvP.

Whatever anyone's point of view on the PvP part may be, it’s pretty obvious that this change has no benefit in PvE whatsoever, which would make the Bosmers the ONLY race that has a significant racial trait that has no effect in PvE.

3 – Most racial changes are adjustments, this one is a fundamental change

I understand changes do come when a balance patch happens. And for most of them, those changes seem to be fair game. Some might not be well recieved, others could be debated, but they are adjustments. They don’t really break or remove something entirely.

For instance, I’m not overly fond of the Nord change that replaces a percentage of damage reduction by a flat amount of physical / spell resistance, but that’s merely because my own Nord stamina sorcerer tank already stacked enormous amounts of resists, and I would much rather have a percentage reduction to top it all… But that doesn’t break anything. It’s fairly simple to adapt, and it stays within the same philosophy. We could debate the Altmers now regenerating their lower ressource pool, which is kinda awkward, lore-wise, for instance, but it doesn't sudenly say "now Altmers will be hulking melee warriors on par with Nords and Orcs, screw magicka !".

Removing stealth from Bosmers, however, is a complete paradigm shift. The idea is that « races should all be unique », but… Really, why should they ? Lore-wise (again, I know), Khajiits and Bosmers have always been contenders for the title of the sneakiest thief. It’s part of their racial identity and has been for almost 3 decades.

But let’s leave the lore out, I’ve already discussed that point. Let’s talk gameplay. For the past years, people have been creating bosmers taking into account the fact they are stealthy. Could have been because they wanted to use it, or simply as « oh well, I’m not gonna use it, bummer, but Bosmers are cool », but it was taken into account. Assuming people created a Bosmer for what they bring to the table and not for the cool factor, it’s likely stealth was a desired characteristic.

By entirely removing the stealth bonus from a race, the Maths Team is likely removing the reason some characters were created, and giving free race change tokens to people isn’t going to fix that. Not with one or three tokens per account, and even if they were providing one token per character it wouldn’t fix the issue, because race change is a solution only for people who only care about stats and nothing else. That’s not everyone.

Minmaxers and highly competitive players might be willing to switch out of a race and into another in the blink of an eye to squeeze that 2% bonus damage or whatever, because that’s all they care about, but are they everyone ? Nope. Are they the majority ? I doubt it. One could think they are, based on forum activity, but let’s be realistic, most people NEVER come to the forums, especially the casual players. It took me over THREE YEARS to come here, and that was ONLY because the Maths team threatened my favorite gameplay to be taken away from my favorite character.

So, aside from people who play by the stats only, here’s what it feels like : people grow attached to their characters. They can get around a minor stat adjustment or an annoying quirck, but something unwanted that radically changes how their character plays is generally unwelcome. And of course, looks are part of the identity of a characters. It’s even more important after years of costume collecting, dyes unlocking and whatnot. Many people wouldn’t change their Bosmer into a Khajiit, not because Khajiits are ugly or whatever, but because it would break the character’s identity, the whole feel of playing it. Switching race is only fun if you WANT to do so, not if you have to do so to retain the same gameplay. And not changing race but losing a major part of your character identity nonetheless isn't fun either.

Removing stealth from the Bosmers means that, for a lot of people, their characters will have to change into something that feels entirely different, will have to change gameplay completely, or go to extreme lengths to retain the same gameplay (more about that below). And that is NOT fun.

Also, if the Maths Team talks about adding variety, I don’t see how encouraging people from 2 different races to play a single race will encourage variety.

4 – Stealth is part of the gameplay, don’t treat it as if it doesn’t exist

There is a huge contradiction in that update. One one side, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game », so they’re taking it away from the Bosmers, but on the other hand, they were initially boosting Khajiit’s stealth (don't know if that's still true, didn't care, I have no Khajiit and don't intend to have one). Doesn’t make much sense to me aside from the sheer will to force an artificial, stat-based-only difference between the two races, even though they do share this trait in the lore and have been sharing it in games for almost 3 decades. Stealth exists, stealth is part of the gameplay, and stealth is helluva fun

Stealth isn’t a major part of the gameplay, I’ll give you that. But it isn’t negligible either. There are TWO entire DLCs that revolve around sneaking, a huge amount of items that exist only to be stolen, and a whole justice system that benefits from being able to avoid being seen by the guards. There are achievements and housing items to unlock with said achievements that call for picking merchant lockboxes. So, it’s entirely possible that a Bosmer (or Khajiit) character was created with that in mind, to be a thief / assassin. I know mine was, at least.

Sure, stealth has no place in trials and most « end game » content, but… Does everyone focus on that ? I don’t think so. And even so, it’s entirely possible to have separate characters for different contents, for instance one really optimised character for competitive gameplay, and a stealthy little Bosmer for when you feel like picking pockets and are curious about what’s behind that locked door.

And even in « normal » gameplay, understand non-competitive PvE, stealth can be very useful, or just fun. Bit in a hurry but really need that skyshard ? Avoid all combat and stealth your way through the delve. Farming some gear that drops in overland zones ? Stealth your way to the delve / public dungeon boss. You can pickpocket easier. You can breeze through restricted area, heist, assassination missions and whatnot. This, of course, means a slightly less powerfull character in intense combat situations, but it is a gameplay choice that is available, and a pretty efficient one at that. If you have a bounty you can just sneak into town anyway. You can’t do all that without the +3 meters bonus. And that gameplay choice won’t be available anymore to Bosmers when the update goes live. Be Khajiit, or play entirely differently.

For a comparison, here is an exemple. I play a Bosmer stealthy character, and my wife plays a Breton stealthy character. We both use the same gear, one set that boosts our stealth by 2 more meters, and one that removes the movement penalty when sneaking. While she can sneak, I can sneak ALOT easier and better. I can come so close to a guard that I could scratch his back with the point of a short sword, but she can’t. If she comes this close, she’s caught. It doesn’t mean she can’t sneak around, but in many situations where my character can go undetected, hers can’t. Her current Breton character stealth abilities is tomorrow’s Bosmer stealth ability.

3 meters makes a HUGE difference in PvE, when you're sneaking about. There is currently no gear that gives such a high bonus. Stacking stealth gear, you can get +4 meters. If you want to retain mobility, you either have to be a vampire at stage 4, and / or a magblade. There is a set that removes stealth movement penalty, though, but it doesn't have a bonus to detection radius, meaning that by gear only, you get +4 meters OR +2 meters and no penalty.

When that change goes live, the only way to replicate that level of stealth with a Bosmer would be to be a magbalde and / or a vampire for the movement penalty, and TWO sets that give stealth radius bonus. And we'd still be short of a 1 meter bonus, still making stealth slightly more difficult. Also, those specific sets are stamina sets, effectively ruling out the magblade. As far as I remember, there is only one dropped set that gives that sort of stealth bonus in light armour. None craftable. That doesn’t leave much room for character customisation. Also, as stated before, character looks might matter, and being a vampire stuck on stage 4 to retain your gameplay might not appeal to everyone. Not even mentionning the drawbacks that inherently come with being a vampire.

A stamblade could use the skill morph that provides a bonus to stealth mobility, but seing this is a magicka ability, it would deal pretty low damage. I know, I've tested it. When my character is buffed, the stamina version of this skills has 10k damage on the description. The magicka version, still for my character, is about 3k, and does no longer apply a debuff to enemy resists. So, as I mentionend earlier, to retain stealth mobility, one would have to go to such extreme length as to gimp one of their best combat skills (combat not being the strongest point of a thief already). Or one could use that PvP skill that boosts speed, but you uncloak for a while when casting it. And that's also one less combat skill in the bars. So, to sum it up, lower stealth bonus, no mobility or even lower combat prowess.

Basically, when that change goes live, stealthy Bosmers are screwed. They will be left underperforming in stealth even though it's one of the most defining traits of the race, with no means to compensate by gear only. Either they will get to +4 meters bonus instead of +5 or +7, or +2 and retain mobility, or +4 and mobility IF they are a vampire or a magblade or chose to be even less efficient in combat. And that is if they go full sneaky. I fail to see where this adds any "choice value". Wanna sneak ? Be Khajiit.

This update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things

5 – How to avoid that problem

You get it by now, if you read everything up until here, I’m advocating for the complete removal of the new « Hunter’s Eye » increase to stealth detection, and for keeping the reduced stealth detection radius from « Stealthy » as it is. I’m not even talking about keeping the 10% bonus damage done in stealth. Change everything you wish, I don’t mind, so long as the stealth detection radius that has no use whatsoever doesn’t make it to live, and that the bonus to stealth is kept.

But… IF it goes live anyway… And obviously it will... At the very least they should provide us with another way to retain that bonus. Someone suggested that adding a stealth bonus to the Legerdemain skill line would allow to compensate, and that’s not a bad idea. I don’t know what other solution would be best. A Legerdemain bonus would certainly make stealth available to everyone, and that would be pretty nice too. But the simplest solution is to drop that ridiculous stealth detection bonus that, again, has no use whatsoever, and keep the stealth bonus as it is.

It's been stated somewhere that they are considering a way to retain stealth, but it won't be live on monday. For all we know, it may not be live before a year or two. Still, stealth is gonna be broken on monday. Break sh*t first, think of a repair "later", that's not good business practice. The proper thing to do would be to delay the racial changes until a proper way to deal with retaining stealth is found.

And to end with a personal feeling, I don't understand that ill-percieved need to differenciate races and make everything unique. We have almost 3 decades and 5 games worth of lore and gameplay advocating for stealthy Bosmers, and there is no need for that to change. Especially not after lots of people spent years building their characters around that. They really should reconsider.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Uryel wrote: »

But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.

Daggerfall: There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte.
Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

This is from the manuals.
Bosmer are part of the sneaky, thiefly archetype. Always have been.
They have never, ever, ever been guards.

Minno · February 2019

With the new passive, you bosmer can save lyourselves by dodge rolling and getting 10% speed to run away from most situations

Czirne · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.

Daggerfall: There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte.
Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

This is from the manuals.
Bosmer are part of the sneaky, thiefly archetype. Always have been.
They have never, ever, ever been guards.

If bosmer were really that sneaky how people here suggest they are, they would not be known for their thievery, cuz noone would see them while sneaking and stealing, heh.

Arciris · February 2019

So much Ado about 3 meters.

If it makes RP Bosmer players happy, why take 3 miserable meters away from them?

3 meters will have 0 impact on DPS, on Healing, on Tanking, and even on PvP.

Just let the RP guys have them 3 meters,

I really don't understand why would anyone oppose to this, except people who like to see other people miserable (and those trolls should seek help).

BTW this thread is in the wrong Forum Section. It should be either in General or PTS. Those 3 meters have nothing to do with Combat.

Razorback174 · February 2019

Czirne wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.

Daggerfall: There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte.
Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

This is from the manuals.
Bosmer are part of the sneaky, thiefly archetype. Always have been.
They have never, ever, ever been guards.

If bosmer were really that sneaky how people here suggest they are, they would not be known for their thievery, cuz noone would see them while sneaking and stealing, heh.

If you're going to play this card, I suppose you're fine with making Orcs a weak stamina race as well?

After all, if they were such great warriors, why does Orsinium get sacked almost every couple of years? Surely such great warriors would be able to defend their own capital, no?

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

If Altmer were such great mages, they'd have a spell to shield them from devs nerfing their regen.

Aela_Dragonrider · February 2019

Awesome post, Uryel!

Couldn't have said that any better.

I think that if they really, really want to have this Hunter's Eye passive, they should make it morphable: 1 line is Hunter's Eye (Stealth Detect + Roll Dodge Thing), the 2nd is something similar to Stealthy (Stealth Radius + Something Else). That would hopefully satisfy both sides of this war and restore a semblance of peace. A fantasy, I know, but we can always hope...

Anyway, here are a few extra thoughts I had:

Stealth Detection Bonus in PvP

The usefulness of 3m Stealth Detection vs other Players is highly dubious. It would do nothing to protect against NBs using Bows, who would just snipe the Bosmer down. People without bows trying to attack the Bosmer would be a little more likely to be seen but 3m is pitifully small. 3m is less than the range of any damage dealing skill, which have a 5m reach/radius at the shortest. There are melee weapons that probably of more reach than that. That is NOT going to add much to your ability to detect other players.

Magelight and Expert Hunter have a radius of 5m and both "reveal hidden enemies and prevent them from returning to stealth for a short time." Just a 5m radius. To me, this says the 'normal' range at which a player could detect someone (without any bonus to detection) is less than 5m. Which means the Bosmer's 'natural' ability to detect people would be equal to or maybe a little bit better than these two skills and does nothing to suppress the enemy's ability to go back into stealth. Hence...

Bosmer detects Enemy fleeing in stealth and attacks
Enemy stuns Bosmer
While Bosmer recovers, Enemy goes back into stealth and escapes

It gets better. Based on my own experience, NBs most frequently attack from stealth with Ambush, a skill with a range of 22m, or a Bow attack. +3m of detection will NOT save a Bosmer from that.

I see it being most useful when hunting stragglers after battles and sieges and in those situations everyone is going to be using AOEs and abilities with Stealth Detection to flush guys out, making the 3m increase redundant. I always see people using Revealing Flare, an ability that has a 30m radius, supresses stealth for 3 sec, slows movement speed, and either lasts 8sec or deals Fire Damage. Compare that to a lowly +3 Detection radius with absolutely 0 other effects. Which would you want?

In a combat situation, the vast majority of Bosmer will probably not have time to hunt for NBs and instead be trying to fight/survive. Between the lag, all the abilities going off around you, watching the enemies in front and to the sides...Are you going to notice that one NB trying to sneak up on you? Probably not.

In the end, I feel that while +3m Stealth Detection COULD be used in PvP...

A ) It is too little to actually make any real difference in finding stealthed players. I do not know the baseline distance at which you can detect stealth but 3m is a pitiful extension.
B ) It does nothing to protect against NBs, the players you would REALLY need the bonus against. Ambush and Bows have enough range to completely negate any detection the Bosmer will gain and you can bet they'll be packing them.
C ) In the situations where it WOULD be easy to use, everyone already uses far better tactics like Stealth Detect potions, Magelight, Revealing Flare, AOES like Caltrops, etc...

It would be a gimmick that would probably never save your life and only rarely make it easier. The only truly effective way that I can see one could use this is for the Bosmer to sneak about wherever an enemy is hiding hoping to stumble over and shank him before he can react, which would be very slow and tedious.

Stealth Detection Bonus in PvE

I've done a lot of PvE and yes, the only enemies that use stealth are NBs and...? And NBs have ONE attack that uses stealth and that is very heavily telegraphed and easy to block. If you can't see that coming you are probably fighting for your life, at which point detecting stealthed enemies is the least of your worries. Dungeons: About the same, though I haven't done all the dungeons. In all, I have yet to see any benefits in having increased Detection in PvE

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Apparently people tested this and the enemy NB's are using a cloak, and the detection passive doesn't work against it.

Artanisul · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Apparently people tested this and the enemy NB's are using a cloak, and the detection passive doesn't work against it.

Wonderful...so literally a wasted change. Not only against lore and common sense but spiteful AND ineffective....

This is such a mind boggling situation. Why would they go through with the change?

Razorback174 · February 2019

Artanisul wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Apparently people tested this and the enemy NB's are using a cloak, and the detection passive doesn't work against it.

Wonderful...so literally a wasted change. Not only against lore and common sense but spiteful AND ineffective....

This is such a mind boggling situation. Why would they go through with the change?

"Would you like to buy some more race change tokens?"

I really laughed at the conspiracy theorists at first, but the longer I've thought about it, the less other explanations seem likely. Even for ZoS, I can't believe they'd be THIS incompetent about handling such a delicate matter as tampering with rebalancing races that have, more or less, been set in stone for 5 years now.

Aela_Dragonrider · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Apparently people tested this and the enemy NB's are using a cloak, and the detection passive doesn't work against it.

Oh...Then I literally cannot think of a single PvE instance where Stealth Detection can be used outside of the dungeons I have never done or Trials.

And, since I forgot to mention it before: Some thoughts on The Dodge Roll Thing.

When my Bosmer dodge rolls, she quickly regains her stamina. BUT...she only dodge rolls repeatedly during boss fights or when fighting multiple opponents (she is Bow/Bow and not very tough). AND...she has heavily invested cp in reducing the cost of Dodge Roll and in Stamina Regen. To me, dodge roll is defensive in nature, meant to get you out of a dangerous situation. Not to set up an opportunity to attack.

In my experience, you never have the stamina to spend dodge rolling regularly in PvP because you're always using skills like mad or breaking free or blocking; especially with the host of snares and cc flying around. Unless you've got a very well-crafted build, you will always have less stamina then you want and certainly non to spare for dodge rolling just to gain a very brief pen bonus. PvP is just to fast-paced and resource demanding, particularly non-cp PvP as that would eliminate the dodge-roll cost reduction and gimp your stam recovery. Even in cp PvP, while it would be easier to manage regular dodge-rolling, I question whether trying to always conserve X Stamina so you can dodge roll and get a bonus that lasts just 6 sec is worth it.

PvE isn't much better. You need good regen and lowered cost to make it remotely sustainable and even that will fail when you need to start spamming skills, leaving nothing for roll dodge. And the harder the fight, the more challenging such a system would be to maintain.

As for the penetration bonus, from what I have gathered studying the forums, managing your penetration to get the most from it is tricky business and not something casual players (like myself) are going to care much about. Meaning the whole 'dodge-roll-to-get-a-penetration-bonus-for-6-sec' will probably only really be useful to players who want to fine-tune their characters to be the absolute best at what they do.

In short: This will definitely benefit some players. SOME. As in, those that crunch the numbers and build their builds with the utmost care to get the most out of everything. Not everyone can or will want to take the time/effort to do so. In which case, for the latter, it too becomes a gimmick. Combine that with the effectively useless Stealth Detect and players who are not concerned about min/maxing and/or are not into PvP ( or are bad at crunching numbers, like me

) have very little to look forward to with this passive.

Uryel · February 2019

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

In short: This will definitely benefit some players. SOME. As in, those that crunch the numbers and build their builds with the utmost care to get the most out of everything. Not everyone can or will want to take the time/effort to do so. In which case, for the latter, it too becomes a gimmick. Combine that with the effectively useless Stealth Detect and players who are not concerned about min/maxing and/or are not into PvP ( or are bad at crunching numbers, like me ) have very little to look forward to with this passive.

This. Basically, we get 3 free skill points. And rest assured that I will NOT place a single skill point in that horrid passive. Just in case the devs do monitor how racial skills are used post-update, I want to make sure thay will register me as "that's a nope !".

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Artanisul wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Apparently people tested this and the enemy NB's are using a cloak, and the detection passive doesn't work against it.

Wonderful...so literally a wasted change. Not only against lore and common sense but spiteful AND ineffective....

This is such a mind boggling situation. Why would they go through with the change?

My tin-hat theory: one of the devs was a Khajiit main who hated that they had to share a stealth passive with the Bosmer and has hated and resented all Bosmer ever since.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

I really don't understand ZOS logic.. ok, they want races to have different distinctive parameters, but at U21 we have 5 races with 2k stamina (imperial, redguard, bosmer, dunmer, orc) and it's ok, but we can't have 2 races with stealth radius 3 m for diversity? o_0

Uryel · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My tin-hat theory: one of the devs was a Khajiit main who hated that they had to share a stealth passive with the Bosmer and has hated and resented all Bosmer ever since.

My tin-hat theory : one of the devs plays PvP in Cyrodiil and isn't very good at it. Gets sniped by Bosmers using stealth and their +10% damage from stealth all the time. So, he uses his awesome power of game-altering to make sure that never happens again...

And fails to recognize he'll now be sniped by stealthy khajiits who will make use of their hightened crit. Gankers gonna gank !

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I really don't understand ZOS logic.. ok, they want races to have different distinctive parameters, but at U21 we have 5 races with 2k stamina (imperial, redguard, bosmer, dunmer, orc) and it's ok, but we can't have 2 races with stealth radius 3 m for diversity? o_0

ESO:

max_only · March 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My tin-hat theory: one of the devs was a Khajiit main who hated that they had to share a stealth passive with the Bosmer and has hated and resented all Bosmer ever since.

My tin-hat theory : one of the devs plays PvP in Cyrodiil and isn't very good at it. Gets sniped by Bosmers using stealth and their +10% damage from stealth all the time. So, he uses his awesome power of game-altering to make sure that never happens again...

And fails to recognize he'll now be sniped by stealthy khajiits who will make use of their hightened crit. Gankers gonna gank !

I’m not saying both tin hats are correct, But....

hakan · March 2019

Wood elves: Stealth Radius Reduction.
Khajiit : Stealth Damage Multiplier.
Argonian : Stealth Resource Regeneration.
Dunmer : Stealth Speed Multiplier.

How is it? According to the lore?

BlueRaven · March 2019

hakan wrote: »

Wood elves: Stealth Radius Reduction.
Khajiit : Stealth Damage Multiplier.
Argonian : Stealth Resource Regeneration.
Dunmer : Stealth Speed Multiplier.

How is it? According to the lore?

I think lore wise it’s good. But I think game wise they want to move away from damage multipliers from stealth as a game mechanic.

While I applaud the fact that you gave them all different types of stealth, I think at least one of those stealth modifiers will have to double up with another races.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

hakan wrote: »

Wood elves: Stealth Radius Reduction.
Khajiit : Stealth Damage Multiplier.
Argonian : Stealth Resource Regeneration.
Dunmer : Stealth Speed Multiplier.

How is it? According to the lore?

If I was redesigning it from the ground up I would make it:
Wood elves: 3m Stealth Radius Reduction (or hiding bonus).
Khajiit : 2m Stealth Radius Reduction + pickpocket bonus.
Argonian : 2m Stealth Radius Reduction + lockpick bonus (3s longer to pick, double chance to force).
Dunmer : 2m Stealth Radius Reduction + Stealth cost reduction.

edit to add: forgot to mention I'd put 1m in improved hiding, either as .5 at ranks 2 and 4 or .25m at each rank. I'd also give orcs a 3m detection bonus, but only if it wasn't the buggy counter-productive mess that it is now.

This is a harder reset than I've proposed before and would affect more racial abilities. I doubt it is likely now.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Detection bonus being a buggy counter-productive mess not addressed or mentioned in latest patch.