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PvE Magicka Warden Guide

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zTrok
zTrok
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Hey all, I don't talk here much, but I figured this could help a few people, and possibly more depending on how meta shifts go. I'm TheTrok, and I'm a magden main. I participate in a bunch of endgame shiz, and am currently one of the highest hitting magicka warden players. I've got a variety of questions about various things that are apart of magden so I compiled them into a singular guide. Before making this guide I did do some research into other magden guides and none of them met any of my expectations.

So without further ado; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XaRwFYGwi8-SZLAyq8tlls2gUYDJXhlU7KStiRA2pRU/edit

Expect this guide to be updated for every patch in the near future!
  • elytherial
    elytherial
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    Thank you for sharing this! I am new to the game, and have really been wanting to make magden work. Nature classes are just what mesh with me, and I love the whole druid-y theme. Been a little discouraged from what I read on forums, though, since I also like to participate in end-game content.

    My warden isn't even close to leveled yet, but I'll be bookmarking this for the future!
  • alexj4596b14_ESO
    alexj4596b14_ESO
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    zTrok wrote: »
    Hey all, I don't talk here much, but I figured this could help a few people, and possibly more depending on how meta shifts go. I'm TheTrok, and I'm a magden main. I participate in a bunch of endgame shiz, and am currently one of the highest hitting magicka warden players. I've got a variety of questions about various things that are apart of magden so I compiled them into a singular guide. Before making this guide I did do some research into other magden guides and none of them met any of my expectations.

    So without further ado; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XaRwFYGwi8-SZLAyq8tlls2gUYDJXhlU7KStiRA2pRU/edit

    Expect this guide to be updated for every patch in the near future!

    I did a quick skim and I noticed you recommend a trial set for the build. What is a interm set that can be used to get the trial set?
  • zTrok
    zTrok
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    alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Hey all, I don't talk here much, but I figured this could help a few people, and possibly more depending on how meta shifts go. I'm TheTrok, and I'm a magden main. I participate in a bunch of endgame shiz, and am currently one of the highest hitting magicka warden players. I've got a variety of questions about various things that are apart of magden so I compiled them into a singular guide. Before making this guide I did do some research into other magden guides and none of them met any of my expectations.

    So without further ado; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XaRwFYGwi8-SZLAyq8tlls2gUYDJXhlU7KStiRA2pRU/edit

    Expect this guide to be updated for every patch in the near future!

    I did a quick skim and I noticed you recommend a trial set for the build. What is a interm set that can be used to get the trial set?

    Mother's Sorrow or Spell Strategist would be best. But Master Architect is necessary for Magden to be good.
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Nice and simple presentation. Thanks!

    A couple of typos:
    • In the Bird of Prey section you implied that the Animal Companions damage passive benefit was still 2% per skill rather than 3%.
    • In the ultimates section you at one point mixed up the names of wintry skills, calling the ultimate Winter's Revenge.
  • zTrok
    zTrok
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.
  • zTrok
    zTrok
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    FrancisCrawford wrote: »
    Nice and simple presentation. Thanks!

    A couple of typos:
    • In the Bird of Prey section you implied that the Animal Companions damage passive benefit was still 2% per skill rather than 3%.
    • In the ultimates section you at one point mixed up the names of wintry skills, calling the ultimate Winter's Revenge.

    I will fix those! Thank you for pointing those out!
  • MooseKnuckles88
    MooseKnuckles88
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    Cool read!
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    Decent numbers and bolded the key point you made...it is why we play isn't it? I mean if one was to gleam any sort of "feeling" from you towards the class I would have to ask why did you even bother with this guide (which rocks) and such if you dislike the class so much?
    Could it be cuz they fun? ;)

    Edited by Joxer61 on March 5, 2019 8:26PM
  • zTrok
    zTrok
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    Joxer61 wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    Decent numbers and bolded the key point you made...it is why we play isn't it? I mean if one was to gleam any sort of "feeling" from you towards the class I would have to ask why did you even bother with this guide (which rocks) and such if you dislike the class so much?
    Could it be cuz they fun? ;)

    That statement was made to dissuade people from trying to play this class just because I or other people can hit high numbers with it, as there's better options if you want high numbers. I personally really enjoy magden for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day it comes at the detriment of the groups I play with simply because the spec itself is a detriment to groups due to how underpowered it is in relation to other class specs.

    Honestly I really do enjoy playing magden, it's rotation is my favorite of all mag specs, and the versatility is really nice in a variety of situations. It just lacks what other classes have unfortunately, and is severely bogged down by one of the most mediocre ultimates, being the bear (in relation to that of something like Soul Harvest, or Destro Ult.)

    There are a variety of things ZoS could do to make magden more competitive, but as of now we're sorta just stuck in a state of perpetual mediocrity. Granted, being given the ability to run Bird of Prey instead of a destro ability on the front bar was a MASSIVE step in the right direction, but all that change resulted in was preventing the spec from spiraling into further insignificance.

    As for the matter of magden being fun. Yeah, It's really fun from my time played on it. More fun than anything else I've played. However, other's opinions on whether it's fun or not may be driven from what causes me to find the spec fun. Most the people I talk to simply play things for the high numbers they can hit on them. I realize that they maybe the minority of the player base, but the guide was by design made for those kinds of people. I did this mainly because if I was able to cater to the minority then it should be easily adopted by the majority. Possibly flawed logic on my part but if people are able to gain information from it then I'll call that a net success.

    Also, sorry for a bit of ranting I guess, just wanted to thoroughly address your points because I'm sure that you're not the only person who would bring them up. I WILL be removing that part of the preamble if something changes causing magden to become as good if not better than the other magicka specs.

    Thank you though for bringing up the point, I'm glad I was able to address it!
    Edited by zTrok on March 5, 2019 10:23PM
  • zTrok
    zTrok
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    vMA update coming soon
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard

    Going to go point by point here so bear with me.

    52k is like .3 more than 51.7 so I guess good on you.

    Are you certain that their advantages only hold in a solo context? As I'm pretty sure that a Nightblade execute would be universally better in any 4 man content, or the burst heal of matriarch for that matter (which everyone was using up until recently due to twilight tormenter which was not working correctly.

    Now, I'm unsure why you list this part, because there's a lot of things that can be brought up in favor of the other classes over magden, things that are much bigger than some passive buffs. Executes come to the forefront of my mind.

    Ok, here you list some numbers, given without any links or anything, but I feel that either you did not actually try searching around for solid parses, simply cherry picked ones that helped your message, or made them up. Regardless, just typing in "Magblade solo parse Wrathstone" yielded this for me: https://youtu.be/g8vanwMqsIM. Only minor issue I had was finding videos where people weren't parsing on 3mils (It's 2019 come on guys) but asside from that it took me maybe two minutes to find.

    Of course it sounds pretty competitive in the context you set up with the whole idea that everything is super close in terms of damage. And then, right at the very end, you go and allude to the thing that destroys the possibility of using magden in anything competitively. Executes.

    But yeah, would be happy to look at any situation of like Hodor, Gotta Blast, Blind Luck, Mundus, or Odyssey using magden for anything other than healing in a score run. (Spoiler alert none of them would)
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    zTrok wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard

    Going to go point by point here so bear with me.

    52k is like .3 more than 51.7 so I guess good on you.

    Are you certain that their advantages only hold in a solo context? As I'm pretty sure that a Nightblade execute would be universally better in any 4 man content, or the burst heal of matriarch for that matter (which everyone was using up until recently due to twilight tormenter which was not working correctly.

    Now, I'm unsure why you list this part, because there's a lot of things that can be brought up in favor of the other classes over magden, things that are much bigger than some passive buffs. Executes come to the forefront of my mind.

    Ok, here you list some numbers, given without any links or anything, but I feel that either you did not actually try searching around for solid parses, simply cherry picked ones that helped your message, or made them up. Regardless, just typing in "Magblade solo parse Wrathstone" yielded this for me: https://youtu.be/g8vanwMqsIM. Only minor issue I had was finding videos where people weren't parsing on 3mils (It's 2019 come on guys) but asside from that it took me maybe two minutes to find.

    Of course it sounds pretty competitive in the context you set up with the whole idea that everything is super close in terms of damage. And then, right at the very end, you go and allude to the thing that destroys the possibility of using magden in anything competitively. Executes.

    But yeah, would be happy to look at any situation of like Hodor, Gotta Blast, Blind Luck, Mundus, or Odyssey using magden for anything other than healing in a score run. (Spoiler alert none of them would)

    He uses a charged weapon+ele weapon, his minor vulnerability uptime will be almost 100% with that setup... and on top he had impale crit luck with 75%, skewing that parse up.

    Here's a parse from Stiles where she had 51.8k on magden selfbuffed without any vulnerability. That alone is an easy 3-4k dps gain in a group...

    https://youtu.be/m1RNIALuZhM
    Edited by Masel on March 18, 2019 2:16PM
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard

    Good research, the Magden does seem pretty competitive. The rotation can also be fairly straightforward and still get great dps. Magblade having minor berserk, which produces a better parse than most, really seems to play with people's minds since it looks better without necessarily being that much better in a good trial group.
  • T3hasiangod
    T3hasiangod
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    Runefang wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard

    Good research, the Magden does seem pretty competitive. The rotation can also be fairly straightforward and still get great dps. Magblade having minor berserk, which produces a better parse than most, really seems to play with people's minds since it looks better without necessarily being that much better in a good trial group.

    It's not good research. It's fairly cherry-picked, and doesn't even address several key things about solo parses.

    First, magdens have Minor Berserk in their toolset. Every proper magden build will have Bird of Prey on both bars, giving them Minor Berserk on both bars. This means that a 51k on a magden is NOT EQUIVALENT to a 51k on a magplar or magsorc, as the latter classes do not have Minor Berserk built into their toolsets. A magplar and magsorc get Minor Sorcery and Minor Prophecy, sure, but neither provide as much of a DPS boost as Minor Berserk does (see below for actual math).

    Second, Minor Vulnerability uptime from anything besides IA is going to involve RNG. You will almost never get identical Minor Vulnerability uptime from just a Shock Enchant or Elemental Weapon across multiple parses. You must therefore control for Minor Vulnerability uptime. Since magdens typically use the Cliff Racer, this usually means you need to adjust other class's parses downward to account for Minor Vulnerability.

    Third, you have to adjust for Minor buffs, such as Minor Sorcery and Minor Prophecy. These two buffs are relatively minor compared to Minor Vulnerability and Minor Berserk, but are still important to take note of. Minor Prophecy by itself will increase damage done by approximately 3.4 percent to 3.8 percent. Minor Sorcery is also going to add roughly 3.5 to 4 percent additional damage done as well. Oh, and if you're interested, Minor Berserk will add in about 5.8 percent on a magden or magNB, or about 6.7 percent on any other class.

    The most important take away is that solo parses cannot be accurately compared between each other. There is too much variation in buff/debuff uptimes, as well as the complete lack of buffs/debuffs on some classes. The only proper way to compare classes between each other would be to perform raid-buffed parses. The ideal scenario would be in actual raid fights, as even a raid-buffed dummy parse may not be able to truly discern the difference with 100 percent accuracy.

    When you take the limitations of self-buffed parses into account, we find that magdens are noticeably behind the other classes (with the potential exception of magDKs, since they compete with melee spots, rather than ranged spots). I say noticeably because you can still pull 50k+ with magdens, but your DPS ceiling is going to be significantly lower than a magNB. In a fully buffed raid parse, you're looking at at least a 5k difference in DPS.

    tl;dr: Self-buffed solo parses do not accurately reflect the DPS disparity between classes. And certainly not cherry-picked parses from (likely) not the same person.
    Edited by T3hasiangod on March 21, 2019 3:30AM
    PC/NA - Mayflower, Hellfire Dominion

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  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    I mean, if you are seriously concerned about pure solo content and which class has the absolute highest dps solo I guess these types of comparisons are okay. However, I can't think of any solo content in which this is relevant (even in vMA scoring you're only compared within your class). For group content I have to agree with Asian and zTrok. I can guarantee the mag sorc solo parse is far too low as well. I was hitting just below that in Murkmire and my dps has gone up tremendously "solo"... granted a good portion of the increase is due to increases in minor vuln uptime as well (on top of amplitude, the pets, etc.). While rough adjustments can be made for buffs and debuffs there are a fair amount of assumptions that need to be made, leaving raid-buffed parses to be your best bet to compare. Iirc sorc and magplar are pretty close, but magblade pulls ahead still and magden is left in the dust (magdk is kind of a sore point since they're melee).

    Anyways, the point is the Warden is probably still the weakest. However, we're talking end-game score pushing here and, thankfully, dps this patch is a lot closer now so playing any spec shouldn't be a huge detriment to progression groups or playing for fun. However, there is still clearly a best, especially when you consider minor berserk and self-utility in many trials like vAS and vCR. Unless you have amazing healers and group coordination magplars and sorcs will need slimecraw for the zerker buff. I should probably stop rambling....

    Tl;dr: solo parses really don't tell you much when you're considering performance in groups and magdens are still weaker relative to other classes.


    Edit: I just realized I pretty much said most of what T3hasiangod said, so my apologies there. Also it is worth mentioning bar space tightness (for slotting ele drain) and considering the sustain benefit of orbs do make a difference in how you setup and play as well. In trials sorc sustain improves tremendously as long as orbs are there, as a quick example.
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on March 21, 2019 4:56AM
    Godslayer
    Tick Tock Tormentor
    Gryphon Heart
    Immortal Redeemer
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    T3hasiangod wrote: »
    Runefang wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The main advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard.

    Good research, the Magden does seem pretty competitive. The rotation can also be fairly straightforward and still get great dps. Magblade having minor berserk, which produces a better parse than most, really seems to play with people's minds since it looks better without necessarily being that much better in a good trial group.

    It's not good research. It's fairly cherry-picked, and doesn't even address several key things about solo parses.

    First, magdens have Minor Berserk in their toolset. Every proper magden build will have Bird of Prey on both bars, giving them Minor Berserk on both bars. This means that a 51k on a magden is NOT EQUIVALENT to a 51k on a magplar or magsorc, as the latter classes do not have Minor Berserk built into their toolsets. A magplar and magsorc get Minor Sorcery and Minor Prophecy, sure, but neither provide as much of a DPS boost as Minor Berserk does (see below for actual math).

    Second, Minor Vulnerability uptime from anything besides IA is going to involve RNG. You will almost never get identical Minor Vulnerability uptime from just a Shock Enchant or Elemental Weapon across multiple parses. You must therefore control for Minor Vulnerability uptime. Since magdens typically use the Cliff Racer, this usually means you need to adjust other class's parses downward to account for Minor Vulnerability.

    Third, you have to adjust for Minor buffs, such as Minor Sorcery and Minor Prophecy. These two buffs are relatively minor compared to Minor Vulnerability and Minor Berserk, but are still important to take note of. Minor Prophecy by itself will increase damage done by approximately 3.4 percent to 3.8 percent. Minor Sorcery is also going to add roughly 3.5 to 4 percent additional damage done as well. Oh, and if you're interested, Minor Berserk will add in about 5.8 percent on a magden or magNB, or about 6.7 percent on any other class.

    The most important take away is that solo parses cannot be accurately compared between each other. There is too much variation in buff/debuff uptimes, as well as the complete lack of buffs/debuffs on some classes. The only proper way to compare classes between each other would be to perform raid-buffed parses. The ideal scenario would be in actual raid fights, as even a raid-buffed dummy parse may not be able to truly discern the difference with 100 percent accuracy.

    When you take the limitations of self-buffed parses into account, we find that magdens are noticeably behind the other classes (with the potential exception of magDKs, since they compete with melee spots, rather than ranged spots). I say noticeably because you can still pull 50k+ with magdens, but your DPS ceiling is going to be significantly lower than a magNB. In a fully buffed raid parse, you're looking at at least a 5k difference in DPS.

    tl;dr: Self-buffed solo parses do not accurately reflect the DPS disparity between classes. And certainly not cherry-picked parses from (likely) not the same person.

    Every proper magden build will have bird of prey on both bars? Seems overgeneralised to me. If you have a healer providing it for you, you simply dont need it anymore, thus increasing magden ceiling noticably through the possibility of slotting inner light on both bars instead. The fact that healers start dropping CP entirely is a problem that needs fixing, similarly to the NB stack in raids.

    You throw around % numbers left and right there, without mentioning that they are contextual as well. On Magden for example, Berserk will not provide the same benefit because they have more damage done within their class already and due to their additive nature it will provide less benefit.

    And i know all that stuff, which is why i dont test selfbuffed myself. I have a buffslave macroed that gives me all the buffs I need, mostly berserk, orbs, vulnerability and drain. Under these condtions the classes are very close to each other, nothing to argue there. And also I limited my post to that selfbuffed context.


    Lemme just use Likos parses as an example:

    DPS pre- and after execute

    Magblade 56-57k with 3 BT and 61k after execute. Here you can also slot another Assassination skill for additional 2% crit and put destro on back bar by now.
    Magplar 56-57k with 3 BT and 63k after execute. Here you have to have destro on front bar to be able to use it without losing the aedrci spear passsive.
    Magsorc (1 pet) 60k throughout with no BT (this also includes minor prophecy, so has to be adjusted down a bit).

    Magsorc (nonpet) 54k with 3 BT and 59k after execute (this also includes minor prophecy, so has to be adjusted down a bit). Implosion change probably led to slight dps increase here though by now, especially pre-execute (even in eceute since implosion did 400dps in that parse).

    Mag DK 58k pre execute and 60k after execute. (this also includes engulfing flames, so has to be adjusted down a bit). Consider this is melee and harder to perform well compared to the rest here.

    Magden 56-57k with 1 BT and 57.6k after execute. This one can be amped up a little now cause you can slot an additional animal companion skill on front bar by now instead of impulse.


    Point is, the classes with strong executes synergise with BT a lot and therefore yield the highest DPS, without their executes and BT, the results would be almost competitive in a standardised environment. Magden could use just a little more dps, but thats not gonna change how amny of them we're seeing in a raid. Magden suffers from a different issue, and that is that it doesnt bring anything to the group that is unique at all. Toughness is best provided by a healer or tank, and magden is actually the worst spec to provide it, and besides that, the AoE breach doesnt really do anything cause important enemies are mostly already breached.
    On a side note: I dunno what your personal problem with me is, but I've heard from multiple reliable sources that you have been bashing me quite a bit lately and seem to have a problem with me. I have no problem with you (at least i did not have so far), so it'd be nice if you could stop doing that, thanks.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Now up to date with some important new information! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XaRwFYGwi8-SZLAyq8tlls2gUYDJXhlU7KStiRA2pRU/edit
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    ✭✭
    Why use Necropotence + Thief over Mother's Sorrow + Shadow? That seems like it should scale better in trials with major force being available.

    Also why 2 crit monster pieces over say Ilambris or Skoria?
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Runefang wrote: »
    Why use Necropotence + Thief over Mother's Sorrow + Shadow? That seems like it should scale better in trials with major force being available.

    Also why 2 crit monster pieces over say Ilambris or Skoria?

    Necropotence + Thief, as magicka scales better overall as far as I'm aware, however, I haven't tested Mother's Sorrow + Shadow, so I'll actually test that out as soon as I get home.

    As for 2 crit sets, they simply end up doing better than Skoria in every situation except for vMA, Illambris is possibly an option, however 2 crit sets likely does better for your already massive amounts of aoe damage. In all honesty, aoe damage should never be the focus so it ends up a non point really. I have numerous tests by others to coaberate, in additon to my own the 2 crit sets being better that of Skoria though if you'd like to see, just ask and I'll direct you to my sources.
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Update: @Runefang was correct with the prediction of Mother's Sorrow + Shadow outperforming Necropotence + Thief, so I will update that tonight or tomorrow. I have the parses if anyone's interested, but it ended up being a solid 2k difference between the best parses on each.

    I am also considering taking a second look at my race section, so stay tuned.
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    ✭✭
    @zTrok I’m keen to see those parses. And what race?? Altmer is mathematically best I assume, Breton is better in reality for most players because they can run bi-stat food and still sustain.
    Edited by Runefang on April 9, 2019 5:12AM
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    https://imgur.com/a/d3cmMpt Mother's Sorrow

    https://imgur.com/a/glJkIGr Necropotence

    Blah blah cherry picking, I know, but those were the two best parses I got in a set of 4 parses each.

    I also ended up making an improved rotation video while I was on the pts, and already added it to the guide so access it there if you wish to see that.

    As for races, I did a lot of testing with Altmer vs Khajiit vs Breton tonight, and found that Altmer is simply always the best as long as you can sustain reasonably.

    Hope this helps @Runefang :)
    Edited by zTrok on April 9, 2019 5:37AM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    zTrok wrote: »
    Joxer61 wrote: »
    from the guide...
    "As a forewarning, Magicka Warden is currently the worst spec of DPS in the game, and the only reason to use Magicka Warden over something like a Magicka Nightblade or Magicka Templar is very miniscule. "

    What do you base this info on, other than just people's opinions? I thought that they were doing better? Cheers...and nice guide! ;)

    The highest magicka warden self parse from Wrathstone that I have seen was 51k. Magicka Nightblade, Magicka Templar, and even Magicka Sorcerer can all hit 55k self buffed. There is no reason to use Magicka Warden over any of those specs other than, enjoying the spec, and/or needing major slayer from Master Architect.

    I am able to hit 52k selfbuffed on a maiden with elemental weapon, which all of those other classes use mostly.

    If you compare these classes to magden, their advantages only hold in a solo context.

    Magsorc has 6% critical chance from minor prophecy that magden doesn't have. Magplar has minor sorcery that magden doesn't have. Magblade doesn't have to slot an additional skill for minor berserk as magden does. Taking all this into accoutn theri dps is pretty competitive.

    Here are the higsest numbers i could find various youtube channels, i only included selfbuffed tests on a 6m dummy:

    Magblade - 53.8k - includes minor berserk and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magplar - 51.5k - includes minor sorcery
    Magden - 51.2k - includes minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc nonpet - 49.2k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Magsorc pet - 51.4k - includes minor prophecy and minor vulnerability uptime from ele weapon
    Mag dk - 51.6k - includes engulfing flames & 60% minor vulnerability uptime from charged enchant.

    Sounds pretty competitive to me... at least in that context. The amin advantage that Nbs have is their execute capability, with magplar being second best in that regard

    I would argue that a self buffed dummy parse is essentially useless when trying to compare classes to each other. If you want to compare say two NBs to one another to see who is the better DPS in an ideal environment, then they are great. But if we are talking about classes competing for end game spots, than you need to standardize buffs as best as possible to what you would expect in your particular raid. In that context, it's pretty clear that mag wardens are pretty much bottom of the barrel. Also, a 1 pet sorc, self buffed, can certainly hit 55k+ on 6 mil, so I admittedly question some of these numbers.
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    So, some of you may be wondering why I have not updated my guide to include the Mother's Sorrow + Shadow change yet, and this is because I would simply prefer waiting until Elsweyr patch notes go up on the pts before I touch anything inside the guide. Just a quick heads up, thank you all for enjoying.
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Updated to current PTS week 2
  • jesse318sub17_ESO
    jesse318sub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    This is a good guide, keep working and testing so I may reap the rewards. :smiley: Also to the people arguing over whether or not Magden is "viable", you can clear any and all content quite easily with 40k, ST, self buffed DPS, which is a mark Magden hits easily. So I don't think there is really much point in arguing if Magden is "good enough", because it objectively is, especially when you consider the strength of the Magden's ability to supply Master Architect often, and at range.

    Is Magden a few K DPS behind other classes in a raid buffed DPS setting? Probably. Does it really matter when you're making the other classes parse even higher with your MA? Not really.
    I'm willing to bet even if you're pushing score, all but the hardest of hardcore groups would probably enjoy having a Magden around using Master Architect. It's fun, it's strong,

    and 2/2 Tri-Focus, Ice Staff heavies are OP as *** in Vet Trials. lmaoooo
  • zTrok
    zTrok
    ✭✭✭
    Just an update: This build is going to be fully updated for Elsweyr on day 1 of release.
  • POMEH
    POMEH
    ✭✭✭
    I am warden breton and have purple sets: iceheart 2\2, mother sorrow 5\5 and spell strategist 5\5. Mundus stone - Shadow.
    Without any bunuses and food I have about 30k magic, 1900 spell damage and 58% crit chance.
    I want to ask why my spell damage is so small?
    And maybe I have to transmute arcane to infusion in all my jewelery to encrease DPS?
    My Youtube channel:https://youtube.com/channel/UC4w_J0ZfxvoXPTi2_ibPnUg
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