Permafrost Snare Only, Time Stop Stun Only

Vapirko

I think these would be fair changes. The whole snared until your stunned thing is a bit much. You spend so much stamina getting out of these skills, and don’t pretend like permafrost can’t be up almost constantly if you have just two wardens in your group. Or that people don’t spam time stop.

Permafrost benefits most from the snare. As is it’s a very strong ult that’s kind of brainless providing so many effects at once. Shock reach does plenty of damage and CCs very well if you want to get both effects. Raise the ceiling a bit on this one.

For Time Stop the real issue is that you can still be frozen even if you exit the bubble because it appears the actual AOE extends to the limit even if the expanding bubble has not reached it’s not full size or something, or maybe it’s just bad bugged, not sure. I say keep this skill at its current cost, but remove the snare and make it a stun after the timer expires and keep its other effects. This would still make it an effective area denial tool just with a bit more thought put into this use. Groups can throw down caltrops along with time stop for a similar effect. Since the cost could be kept down in this case, I think this would also make PvErs happy who use this skill.

LeHarrt91

What if they swapped the snare of Sleetstorm and Impaling Shards? A mobile snare with 70% reduction is potent and a stationary snare with 30% is lacklustre.

Or evaluate the % of all snares as well.

Ragnarock41

Well you're right Its too much and both abilities are too dumb-proof to use , but get ready to be attacked by warden mains anyways.

Vapirko

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Well you're right Its too much and both abilities are too dumb-proof to use , but get ready to be attacked by warden mains anyways.

Im always ready to be attacked by warden mains on the forums and on the battlefield.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

What if they swapped the snare of Sleetstorm and Impaling Shards? A mobile snare with 70% reduction is potent and a stationary snare with 30% is lacklustre.

Or evaluate the % of all snares as well.

Hmm. Interesting suggestion though Im not sure if its an ideal solution and not sure it would change much in terms of PvP gameplay seeing as its just so easy to snare. The issue I am having with both Time Stop and Permafrost is that you're getting two of the most deadly effects in PvP rn (snare and CC) rolled into both skills. I think a lot of the time there are so many snares on you that you're pretty much maxed out not matter what. That change would make Permafrost less deadly 1v1 but wouldn't change much for groups play I don't think, and 1v1 isn't so much the issue.

LeHarrt91

Vapirko wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Well you're right Its too much and both abilities are too dumb-proof to use , but get ready to be attacked by warden mains anyways.

Im always ready to be attacked by warden mains on the forums and on the battlefield.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

What if they swapped the snare of Sleetstorm and Impaling Shards? A mobile snare with 70% reduction is potent and a stationary snare with 30% is lacklustre.

Or evaluate the % of all snares as well.

Hmm. Interesting suggestion though Im not sure if its an ideal solution and not sure it would change much in terms of PvP gameplay seeing as its just so easy to snare. The issue I am having with both Time Stop and Permafrost is that you're getting two of the most deadly effects in PvP rn (snare and CC) rolled into both skills. I think a lot of the time there are so many snares on you that you're pretty much maxed out not matter what. That change would make Permafrost less deadly 1v1 but wouldn't change much for groups play I don't think, and 1v1 isn't so much the issue.

I feel that they could take the Snare off of Permafrost but leave it on Northern Storm, that way your are choosing snare or stun.
But there definitely needs to be more options for Immunity.

Vapirko

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Well you're right Its too much and both abilities are too dumb-proof to use , but get ready to be attacked by warden mains anyways.

Im always ready to be attacked by warden mains on the forums and on the battlefield.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

What if they swapped the snare of Sleetstorm and Impaling Shards? A mobile snare with 70% reduction is potent and a stationary snare with 30% is lacklustre.

Or evaluate the % of all snares as well.

Hmm. Interesting suggestion though Im not sure if its an ideal solution and not sure it would change much in terms of PvP gameplay seeing as its just so easy to snare. The issue I am having with both Time Stop and Permafrost is that you're getting two of the most deadly effects in PvP rn (snare and CC) rolled into both skills. I think a lot of the time there are so many snares on you that you're pretty much maxed out not matter what. That change would make Permafrost less deadly 1v1 but wouldn't change much for groups play I don't think, and 1v1 isn't so much the issue.

I feel that they could take the Snare off of Permafrost but leave it on Northern Storm, that way your are choosing snare or stun.
But there definitely needs to be more options for Immunity.

Well counterplay to all snares in general needs to be boosted for sure. I think that’s a given. Or, snares need a big nerf in general. No one likes the crawl through sludge meta, some just capitalize on it. Anyway you cut it, a 70% snare, stun after just 3 ticks (goes very quickly and no clear indication of the edge makes it hard to get out sometimes), plus a very decent amount of damage, plus major protection for you and your allies, I mean...lol. Northern storm is supposed to be the PvE version I assume and that’s fine. Of course if you remove the stun there’s no reason to run permafrost over northern storm. I think that stun should be for northern storm and the snare should be for permafrost. That way you can choose what kind of effect you want to have. Increased damage and eventual stun if you can keep them in the AOE or slightly less damage but you get the snare.

_Ahala_

Sleet storm and morphs need a rework that’s for sure... too much power is focused on that ult while the rest of the winters embrace tree is frankly garbage... let’s nerf the snares to 30% and rework the useless morphs in that tree for dps so that magden cryomancy identity is not limited to one over performing ult... expansive frost cloak, arctic blast, frozen retreat, and shimmering slab could use some work as these morphs are seldom used for good reason...

Brrrofski

Hopeful after the last ESO live where the devs we're just snared out of their minds for 90% of the match, they finally realise how horrible snares are in PvP and how badly they need to be addressed.

Not really expecting it for wrathstone as we're a bit too late in the cycle for big changes, but come Elseweyr something drastic needs to happen with them. It's too cheap, easy and frequent to apply snares to people and the opposite to actually remove them.

_Ahala_

Flat out removing the stun would be really painful though as that would leave us with arctic blast only... dear y’ffre that ability sucks

Vapirko

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Flat out removing the stun would be really painful though as that would leave us with arctic blast only... dear y’ffre that ability sucks

Isn’t that kind of an issue with the warden class though? Too much power focused into a few abilties and a lot of them are jsut kind of useless. This is less about nerfing wardens and time stop (in my mind) than bringing a thought process back into the game. Let’s have fun, powerful abilties, but let’s not keep making this one button does all type abilties. Permafrost currently gives you DPS, crowd control and tankiness all in one ult. Let’s take another really popular ult, DBoS. This gives you a very good sized burst damage and a dot with a CC. But it’s also conal and if you dodge roll or block it you have a very good chance of avoiding one or all of its effects, and it has no secondary effects. That’s an example of a well designed skill.

_Ahala_

Vapirko wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Flat out removing the stun would be really painful though as that would leave us with arctic blast only... dear y’ffre that ability sucks

Isn’t that kind of an issue with the warden class though? Too much power focused into a few abilties and a lot of them are jsut kind of useless. This is less about nerfing wardens and time stop (in my mind) than bringing a thought process back into the game. Let’s have fun, powerful abilties, but let’s not keep making this one button does all type abilties

A thousand times yes. Magden would be so much more fun if it were comprised of a variety of viable, well designed, and tactically rewarding skills as opposed to one overpowered ult.

CatchMeTrolling

As far as permafrost it didn’t become an issue until the speed nerf. It suddenly became “op” after the speed nerf. You can’t kill anyone with it by yourself if they have basic pvp common sense. What’s going to happen is zos is going to hit the ult without fixing the actual issue like usual. Then players will spend the next 6 months complaining about that change. Cycle never ends. And it’s the reason why balance is subpar. Devs don’t play the game enough to understand the issues and players don’t offer actual solutions and end up just as responsible for the terrible metas.

BaylorCorvette

Once Necromancer is released I fully expect Warden to get nerfted hard, lol. jk, but really..

I think these changes would be good. Perhaps remove the major protection from Northern Storm and make that the morph for Permafrost.

TheBonesXXX

It's amusing to watch big groups who all individually press one button die to permafrost, time stop, and negate.

Ragnarock41

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's amusing to watch big groups who all individually press one button die to permafrost, time stop, and negate.

Its also amusing to watch big groups spam permafrost, time stop and negate to completely crush the outnumbered opponents without chance because you literally can't fight back or stand your ground against such tools.

Royaji

I mean, I understand that some people really do not like Time Stop but can't you guys at least be honest and just ask for the skill to be deleted at this point? Time Stop without snare will be a... what the hell will it even be? An area stun that takes 4 seconds to happen, has a giant and very obvious telegprah and costs 8100 magicka? This will easily be up there with the most useless skills in the game.

Vapirko

Royaji wrote: »

I mean, I understand that some people really do not like Time Stop but can't you guys at least be honest and just ask for the skill to be deleted at this point? Time Stop without snare will be a... what the hell will it even be? An area stun that takes 4 seconds to happen, has a giant and very obvious telegprah and costs 8100 magicka? This will easily be up there with the most useless skills in the game.

My suggest was to keep it at its current cost on live. This would keep the PvE people happy. And as for your question what would it be? It would be a giant area of denial tool that provides a stun and other powerful effects when used with timing and thought, imagine that. Like you have to time it for an enemy rushing into a keep or coordinate with groups members to throw down caltrops. God forbid should people have to think about what they’re doing lol.

Vapirko

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as permafrost it didn’t become an issue until the speed nerf. It suddenly became “op” after the speed nerf. You can’t kill anyone with it by yourself if they have basic pvp common sense. What’s going to happen is zos is going to hit the ult without fixing the actual issue like usual. Then players will spend the next 6 months complaining about that change. Cycle never ends. And it’s the reason why balance is subpar. Devs don’t play the game enough to understand the issues and players don’t offer actual solutions and end up just as responsible for the terrible metas.

You can kill people with it by yourself. Its still fairly effective 1v1 because snares are so strong. Also the speed nerf and mobilty nerf to the extent that it was implemented was entirely ZOS fault. The duration of speed pots was out of control, I think everyone agreed on that. But all the hits to expedition skills, the huge nerf of FM, no one was asking for those. A lot of those changes were out of left field and I think we will see less of those types of alterations now that the dev team has been rearranged and is under new leadership.

TheBonesXXX

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's amusing to watch big groups who all individually press one button die to permafrost, time stop, and negate.

Its also amusing to watch big groups spam permafrost, time stop and negate to completely crush the outnumbered opponents without chance because you literally can't fight back or stand your ground against such tools.

Proxy Det treatment. AoE abilities shouldn't be as effective as single target against a single target.

Solariken

Permafrost should definitely be snare only. It does way too much at present.

Northern Storm should not have any snare at all. AoE damage and AoE Major Protection is plenty strong.

Compensatory buffs:

Arctic Blast needs to deal some damage.

Fetcher Infection should just deal increased damage. No more needing to cast twice (dumbest design ever).

MinarasLaure

IMHO no.
Permafrost dmg is ridiculous and I've never seen anybody dying or running out of stamina because of it.
The only reason why magdens use it is because it does stun. Remove it, and it will turn in another unused warden skill.
As for timestop...it costs/will cost alot of magicka already, it's a fair trade.

Vapirko

MinarasLaure wrote: »

IMHO no.
Permafrost dmg is ridiculous and I've never seen anybody dying or running out of stamina because of it.
The only reason why magdens use it is because it does stun. Remove it, and it will turn in another unused warden skill.
As for timestop...it costs/will cost alot of magicka already, it's a fair trade.

Then you haven’t seen any good magicka wardens or groups of them. Permafrost is involved in plenty of deaths lol, I’m not really sure what you mean. Should an ultimate be the only damage needed to completely kill someone or drain them completely of Stam? No of course not. But providing a 70% snare, a stun after just three ticks, major protection to you and your allies and a very sizable amount of damage is too much. It’s way way way more powerful than the nearest similar ult which is Eye of the Storm and it costs less. Honestly there isn’t even a comparison.

Svidrir

Permafrost is a : ULTIMATE

Time stop is a : Skill (spamable and primary skill for most people... )




If you do not understand my post: compare skills with skills and utlmates with ultimates

Example: Shadow cloak 3780 mana / strike 3780 mana Casting again within 4 seconds cost 50% more Magicka

Vapirko

Svidrir wrote: »

Permafrost is a : ULTIMATE

Time stop is a : Skill (spamable and primary skill for most people... )

Would you care to elaborate?

Ragnarock41

Svidrir wrote: »

Permafrost is a : ULTIMATE

Time stop is a : Skill (spamable and primary skill for most people... )




If you do not understand my post: compare skills with skills and utlmates with ultimates

Example: Shadow cloak 3780 mana / strike 3780 mana Casting again within 4 seconds cost 50% more Magicka

Except we are not comparing permafrost to time stop. They are both ridicilous in their own way. But if you're trying to say that permafrost being an ultimate makes a justification , I would like to compare it to magma armor or Dk standart.

Solariken

Permafrost is super abusive. I spent 4 or 5 games last night getting rolled over by a Permatard stack. It's not just the fact that they it's the most overloaded ult in the entire game, it's also a huge problem that Warden generates enough ult to basically spam it back to back to back.

Vapirko

Svidrir wrote: »

Permafrost is a : ULTIMATE

Time stop is a : Skill (spamable and primary skill for most people... )




If you do not understand my post: compare skills with skills and utlmates with ultimates

Example: Shadow cloak 3780 mana / strike 3780 mana Casting again within 4 seconds cost 50% more Magicka

@Svidrir I didn’t understand your post becuse it’s irrelevent to mine. I’m not comparing the two, or using one as justification for changing the other. They’re just two skills that function similarly, and I’ve made a suggestion on what I think would bring more balance to them both, while also trying to account for their use in PvE.

Vapirko

Solariken wrote: »

Permafrost is super abusive. I spent 4 or 5 games last night getting rolled over by a Permatard stack. It's not just the fact that they it's the most overloaded ult in the entire game, it's also a huge problem that Warden generates enough ult to basically spam it back to back to back.

Yes the ult gen is definitely part of the issue. Ideally wardens would see a balance pass that removes power from some areas and allocates it more to others. Wardens can too easily get too many powerful effects from just a few skills, but at the same time many of their skills are all but useless. I also have a hunch that doing so would make mag wardens more viable in PvE.

Again I think the whole nerf mobilty to the ground and then introduce a bunch of OP AOE snare abilties in ZOS double nerf style, is a thing of the past. I bet we see less of this kind of gutting with the new combat team arrangement.

technohic

I think these both would be ok of roots and snares were not so powerful.

Roots you can at least dodge roll and get 2 second immunity but purging them should do the same since purging total dark/unstable core gives you CC immunity (or at least has at one point in the game)

Snares I would rather not have drop people much below normal running speed and be limited somewhat that way but rather be a counter to minor expedition, major expedition, and other speed boosts. Maybe they would just flat out be "reduces your opponent to 10% below normal running speed" as a max and a hard set movement speed value and then the counter to the counter could be sprinting. If they did that, both these abilities would not be so bad.

Vapirko

technohic wrote: »

I think these both would be ok of roots and snares were not so powerful.

Roots you can at least dodge roll and get 2 second immunity but purging them should do the same since purging total dark/unstable core gives you CC immunity (or at least has at one point in the game)

Snares I would rather not have drop people much below normal running speed and be limited somewhat that way but rather be a counter to minor expedition, major expedition, and other speed boosts. Maybe they would just flat out be "reduces your opponent to 10% below normal running speed" as a max and a hard set movement speed value and then the counter to the counter could be sprinting. If they did that, both these abilities would not be so bad.

Right, if mobilty was still a thing these wouldn’t be so bad. But something has to give. We all know it. It’s amazing how we went from snares barely being an issue to them being the most prevalent issue. I guess I should be patient, I do have a feeling we will be seeing some changes.

LordTareq

Rather than changing individual skills, I think it would be far better if the CC immunities were given another look. Snares for one should not stack at all. Best snare should be no more than 50% and be single target melee only. Ranged snares should max out at 30%. AOE snares bit lower than that. Snares should always be applied last, so someone with major expedition snared by a 30% snare would get (100% * 1.3) *0.7 = 91% speed

Rolling out of roots should provide a couple of seconds of additional root immunity and there should be a diminished duration if you get rooted again within say 10 seconds.
Hard CC should provide an increased immunity duration based on the length of time you were CC'ed.