Can MagSorc be a strong ranged dps? (pve)

disintegr8

Simple answer is yes, magsorc can be a strong ranged DPS (have been for a while). They are easy and fun to play, have easily remembers rotos and don't rely on having a healer handy all of the time to keep them alive and throw shards.

Funny how these discussions get into a %$#@ing contest about which is better. Sure, people might get better ranged DPS from other builds but that doesn't mean magsorcs aren't strong.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

disintegr8 wrote: »

Simple answer is yes, magsorc can be a strong ranged DPS (have been for a while). They are easy and fun to play, have easily remembers rotos and don't rely on having a healer handy all of the time to keep them alive and throw shards.

Funny how these discussions get into a %$#@ing contest about which is better. Sure, people might get better ranged DPS from other builds but that doesn't mean magsorcs aren't strong.

I get what you are saying but the bold part has not been true in a long while if you are talking competitive score pushing trial groups. If not, that literally any class can be a ranged DPS and clear 99% of content.

A lot definitely changed on monday, but last week, a trial DPS sorc had virtually no self healing (you dont run power surge in a trial), the worst sustain of almost any class (they definitely needed shards/orbs), and their rotation needed to be played dynamically to even have a shot at competing.

Expletives aside, we compare mSorcs to the other two obvious ranged magic dealers (templar and NB) to discuss their pros and cons. Until monday, sorcs were objectively in last place. You can call them strong, sure, but other classes were definitely stronger. I assume people coming to the forums to ask questions want to know why and by how much.

Commancho

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

We’ll have to agree to disagree on a few of these. Boundless storm and Grothdarr are both melee range and don’t help either class for ranged DPS. Additionally, Boundless really shouldn’t be used is coordinated groups now that Frost Cloak hits 12 players (unless you’re lacking a Warden, which is a bad idea for Minor Toughness).

Any class can slot a lightning staff and destro ulti for good AoE, but they all give up single target damage to do so. Maybe Sorcerer sacrifices slightly less, but they’re still losing something by not using double inferno.

And Implosion no longer exists, which is one less reason to specialize in lightning damage.

Well 8m is definetly not a melee range, altough I see what do you mean. However there is no such a thing like "ranged only" DD in PVE because in order to get decent DPS you need to use two bars and include short-medium range abilites in your rotation (via most popular stam build across all classes is dw+bow which requires close range as well). To use any class to maximum you need to get into at least 5-8m range. Ofcourse it's not always possible due to some mechanics, but in this case our dps output is not optimal and it will never be.

As of the Boundless - you don't get always Warden in your group (at least in 4-man content). Besides it cost almost nothing and it lasts for 33s so why not using if it keeps Grothgar up by most of the time?

Yeah, every class can use lightning staff, but not every class gets 5% bonus damage to shock damage and since sorcerer's rotation can be based entirely on shock dmg abilities that gives us 5% extra DPS in total. It's quite easy to get gear & make build with 40-45k AoE DPS and that's enaugh for any veteran content in this game (single target wise and we are talking here about pulling this numbers in AoE!). Sorc's builds based on lightning don't need any sustain as they barely every go under 50% magicka (mostly when they need to spam damage shield in the intensive fight). For the same reasons they don't need healing at all (heals you get by Power Surge are more than enaugh).

Sure, you can go over 50-60k single target with magblade. Sure you spend milions to keep up with meta gear. Sure you can spend hundreds of hours on polishing your rotation and sustain. Honestly, how many people aim for leaderboards? OP, do you aim for the leader boards?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Commancho wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

We’ll have to agree to disagree on a few of these. Boundless storm and Grothdarr are both melee range and don’t help either class for ranged DPS. Additionally, Boundless really shouldn’t be used is coordinated groups now that Frost Cloak hits 12 players (unless you’re lacking a Warden, which is a bad idea for Minor Toughness).

Any class can slot a lightning staff and destro ulti for good AoE, but they all give up single target damage to do so. Maybe Sorcerer sacrifices slightly less, but they’re still losing something by not using double inferno.

And Implosion no longer exists, which is one less reason to specialize in lightning damage.

Well 8m is definetly not a melee range, altough I see what do you mean. However there is no such a thing like "ranged only" DD in PVE because in order to get decent DPS you need to use two bars and include short-medium range abilites in your rotation (via most popular stam build across all classes is dw+bow which requires close range as well). To use any class to maximum you need to get into at least 5-8m range. Ofcourse it's not always possible due to some mechanics, but in this case our dps output is not optimal and it will never be.

As of the Boundless - you don't get always Warden in your group (at least in 4-man content). Besides it cost almost nothing and it lasts for 33s so why not using if it keeps Grothgar up by most of the time?

Yeah, every class can use lightning staff, but not every class gets 5% bonus damage to shock damage and since sorcerer's rotation can be based entirely on shock dmg abilities that gives us 5% extra DPS in total. It's quite easy to get gear & make build with 40-45k AoE DPS and that's enaugh for any veteran content in this game (single target wise and we are talking here about pulling this numbers in AoE!). Sorc's builds based on lightning don't need any sustain as they barely every go under 50% magicka (mostly when they need to spam damage shield in the intensive fight). For the same reasons they don't need healing at all (heals you get by Power Surge are more than enaugh).

Sure, you can go over 50-60k single target with magblade. Sure you spend milions to keep up with meta gear. Sure you can spend hundreds of hours on polishing your rotation and sustain. Honestly, how many people aim for leaderboards? OP, do you aim for the leader boards?

You can do that with a sorc on a 6 mil since monday self buffed (and you can do it with farmed/crafted gear). haha. Grothdar is great for trash, but its not much of a boss set. I also love it in VMA. Boundless is hard to make room for in PVE. The damage is a joke. In a raid, you probably get the buff from someone else, and in most 4 man content you just dont need it. Really the best excuse for boundless is for things like downstairs in VCR where you need the major expedition on +3.

As to melee and ranged, well, ranged practically speaking means close enough to hit your target with blockade. I can think of a single fight in this game where you need to spend more than a minimal amount of time outside of that, unless you are specifically following a temporary mechanic (like VAS+2 for example).

Joxer61

Commancho wrote: »

OP, do you aim for the leader boards?

nope! ')

Joxer61

Crap...realized I didn't include nor ask about Magden as a ranged option as well...silly me! That was just mean.

Vahrokh

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

But looking at a purely ranged dps option, and I have a Magblade, just looking at something different. Isnt Magplar more or less melee as well due to jabs? If I can do decent enough on a magplar as ranged then I will go that route for sure. Also, isn't a Sorc rotation prett straight forward as well?

You play ele weapon on a MagPlar ranged build. No jabs....
Sorc is not static due to the different uptimes from LL (10s) wall (8s) and curse... ( 12s? Not really sure)
On MagPlar Spear and Wall have same uptime (8s) so easier in my opinion.
So pick MagPlar

Probably should have read the whole post before ranting, but this is what I was getting at. To make a sorc and NB sing, you need to play them dynamically. You really dont with magplar. On a magplar, I only use jabs in trash. For single target, use the psijic spammable.

Magplar rotation is so freaking easy. Its just a big circle. Magplar in the current meta is about as simple as we have seen since pet sorcs were all the rage shortly after the buffed pets the first time around. There is no easier way to break 40k on a self buffed dummy IMO. You can make use of skoria and zaan depending on how close you can get. The difference between a static (circular) and dynamic (manage everything on their own timers) rotation is closer on magplar then the other two.

Sorc rotation is trickier. You really want to juggle most of your buffs dynamically, and you have an unpredictable proc to manage. The nature of frags also means your parse is more RNG dependent. If you try to play them statically, you will see a bigger DPS loss than on magplar. Sorcs also have the worst sustain of the lot.

NB rotation is the hardest, but with risk comes a bigger upside. Not only do you want to juggle all your buffs independently, merciless is more difficult to manage than frags IMO. NBs also penalize you the most if your weave is not perfect.

Did you try petsorc? Could you please post a video?

cpuScientist

OP's original question is if they can be strong ranged, which the answer is yes they can be so can a bowbow Stam or even a magDK if strong means able to complete content. Then OP asked if it wasn't straight forward and easy compared to magBlade and magPlar. magBlade is a tough harder and magPlar is alot easier.

What some including myself was simply saying was magPlar pulled higher and sustained better with a perfectly circular easy peasey lemon squeezy rotation. While sorcerer has different timer on dots *** poor sustain and an rng proc and then magBlade just has a different timer on 1 dot aswell and while not an rng proc it has arrow proc which needs to be prioritized adding a bit more complexity again. Buy are blessed with minor beserk and and good Regen aswell.

This current patch sorcerer has alot better DPS thanks to the matriarch, which in my testing does as much DPS as my liquid lightning single Target! And there is a little light at the end of the tunnel in that Breton is able to help sorcerer sustain (which still needs in class help IMHO, should not have to rely on a RACE) so now they are competitive. Will they be used more than magBlades who are blessed with minor beserk at all times have a better execute and now even greater sustain than before. Even though they are now finally close in numbers maybe maybe not. I know I'd still want as many NightBlades as I could fit if going for a score run. But even still I would take the sorcerer off healer duty and let them DPS again.

And cutting down hordes of trash is meaningless and barely any better on sorcerer.

Sorc this patch is in a great great place Nightbladeladeladelade will probably still be used most in pure score runs but the difference is miniscule. I would still suggest magPlar for simplicity if that's preferred if that matters not then whatever floats your boat.

So to answer your question yes especially this patch sorc is fantastic range option either just sustain being an issue that's greatly lessened by Breton.

NupidStoob

People have already answered OPs question thoroughly and nicely.

Sorc deals highest AOE DPS feels like a remnant from the past to me. In dedicated raids everyone will have a trashsetup and differences are hardly noticable. What will affect damage a lot more than classes in those situations are the abilities of your tanks to quickly stack adds. Magicka classes with prox det, 2 ground dots, destro ult and heavy attacks with charged lightning staves for maximum min vulnerability on the group so spin to win stamina can wreck adds harder used to be very popular.
There was hardly a difference in outgoing damage for magicka classes and even if sorc had 10k AOE DPS more than the other classes you would never just take them for that. On top of that sorcs in aoe situations face the same problems they do in single target which is bad sustain and no access to minor berserk on their own.

Vahrokh

NupidStoob wrote: »

There was hardly a difference in outgoing damage for magicka classes and even if sorc had 10k AOE DPS more than the other classes you would never just take them for that. On top of that sorcs in aoe situations face the same problems they do in single target which is bad sustain and no access to minor berserk on their own.

Plus, ZOS has diligently removed any incentive to bring AoE classes, since in the last 2 years they have created zero trash pull instances. Yes, you still have to clear a couple of spiders in vCR before the boss is "free", but that can be done by a crippled pig.

Joxer61

Yes, you ALL have been very helpful and cheers for that! Realized I had a Magden and actually had a lot fun playing that so will give it a go and see how I fair. granted, aint no speed runs or the like in the future for this kid but still like to be able to contribute and not be a "carry".
If not will look at PetSorc as well since I have been hearing some good things....and if all else fails I do have Magplar, which also got some love with the Solar Barrage change.
So again, thank you for the tips, advice, info and chat!! Cheers

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Vahrokh wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

But looking at a purely ranged dps option, and I have a Magblade, just looking at something different. Isnt Magplar more or less melee as well due to jabs? If I can do decent enough on a magplar as ranged then I will go that route for sure. Also, isn't a Sorc rotation prett straight forward as well?

You play ele weapon on a MagPlar ranged build. No jabs....
Sorc is not static due to the different uptimes from LL (10s) wall (8s) and curse... ( 12s? Not really sure)
On MagPlar Spear and Wall have same uptime (8s) so easier in my opinion.
So pick MagPlar

Probably should have read the whole post before ranting, but this is what I was getting at. To make a sorc and NB sing, you need to play them dynamically. You really dont with magplar. On a magplar, I only use jabs in trash. For single target, use the psijic spammable.

Magplar rotation is so freaking easy. Its just a big circle. Magplar in the current meta is about as simple as we have seen since pet sorcs were all the rage shortly after the buffed pets the first time around. There is no easier way to break 40k on a self buffed dummy IMO. You can make use of skoria and zaan depending on how close you can get. The difference between a static (circular) and dynamic (manage everything on their own timers) rotation is closer on magplar then the other two.

Sorc rotation is trickier. You really want to juggle most of your buffs dynamically, and you have an unpredictable proc to manage. The nature of frags also means your parse is more RNG dependent. If you try to play them statically, you will see a bigger DPS loss than on magplar. Sorcs also have the worst sustain of the lot.

NB rotation is the hardest, but with risk comes a bigger upside. Not only do you want to juggle all your buffs independently, merciless is more difficult to manage than frags IMO. NBs also penalize you the most if your weave is not perfect.

Did you try petsorc? Could you please post a video?

@Vahrokh

I have been playing a pet sorc again since the patch. This is a light attack pet sorc, not a heavy attack pet sorc. I am NOT running the Familiar, just the twilight Matriarch (the one with the heal). I dont even cast it (just make sure its summoned). I havent made any vids in a long while, but I might work on that this week. There are far better players out there than me that usually have this covered, but this is essentially what I am doing. My goal is usually to find the simplest way to pull 95% of what the big boys are pulling, and this patch, mag sorc seems to be the answer, but Magplar still serves that function as well. If you want circular, I would say magplar for ease. If you want to break into dynamic rotations, but are new to it, I think its mag sorc. If you flawless dynamic rotations are your game, NB is the way to go.

My Bars:
Front: Elemental Weapon, Frags, Mages Wrath (or Bound Aegis), Twilight, Daedric Prey, Meteor
Back: LL, Blockade, Elemental Drain (for Parsing, shield or Bound Aegis in raid), Trap, Twilight, Attro

Gear: My gear is 5 Perfect Siroria, 5 Mech Acuity, Zaan, all bloodthirsty. I tried all infused jewelry and it was several K behind on a dummy, but perhaps in certain fights it would be better. For parsing, i get best results with Fire and Lighting enchants, but for raid, I just run absorb magic. It is basically a 1k single target loss for effectively 300 mag regen. I have no issues at all running blue food in a raid. On a 6 mil, i can run parse food, and double damage enchants and sustain solo just fine as long as I use elemental drain.

Rotation: It is basically a simple dynamic rotation. You juggle LL, Blockade, Trap and Prey (in a raid I prefer Channeled Acceleration most of the time unless I can be melee), then its just elemental weapon and frag spamming. When solo, I also keep up elemental drain.

I frankly am still not sold if its even worth it to slot an execute. The parses are virtually the same when I just put bound aegis there. I am seeing 3 mill parses around 54-55, and 6 mill parses around 51-52. Sorc parses are a little RNG Heavy because of frags, and I have yet to see that rotation on the 6 mil where the stars align for the perfect parse. When they proc is also important because you do a more damage with this build on the ends (High health and low health). I tried a static rotation (LL, Blockade and trap, always in order) and it can still break 50k with decent RNG on 3 mil with no execute (havent tried on 6 mil). There are definitely people out there pushing this higher than me, but I was pretty impressed with what this was doing self buffed. It is definitely easier than Dynamic Mageblade.

I am running shadow mundus, and will post my CP when I get home. It's pretty standard stuff (I just used constellations addon). I go perhaps a little heavy on spell pen, because I usually run back room in VCR. I end up over penetrating just a touch in a full raid.

Joxer61

@Oreyn_Bearclaw , but...but...Magden!!?? lol

You making it tough now....this pet Sorc stuff looks like a winner! Cheers for your info mate.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Joxer61 wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw , but...but...Magden!!?? lol

You making it tough now....this pet Sorc stuff looks like a winner! Cheers for you info mate.

LMAO. Magden needs some love; that's for sure.

Pet sorc is def the way to go IMO. You have room for a utility skill (shield or boundless storm, or both if you dont bother with an execute) even with double barring a pet that also serves as a great heal. It is great for backroom in VCR. One thing I love is that as a sorc, you can proc frag and save it before you go through the portal. If you do that with a spectral bow proc on a mageblade, you lose it. I am killing about one more crystal on average before I have to go up to the platform. I never broke any records on my mageblade, but I could hit 50k on a dummy last patch. For me, sorc is a pretty noticable jump in damage, that is easier on the fingers.

Grianasteri

Commancho wrote: »

We’ll have to agree to disagree on a few of these. Boundless storm and Grothdarr are both melee range and don’t help either class for ranged DPS. Additionally, Boundless really shouldn’t be used is coordinated groups now that Frost Cloak hits 12 players (unless you’re lacking a Warden, which is a bad idea for Minor Toughness).

Any class can slot a lightning staff and destro ulti for good AoE, but they all give up single target damage to do so. Maybe Sorcerer sacrifices slightly less, but they’re still losing something by not using double inferno.

And Implosion no longer exists, which is one less reason to specialize in lightning damage.

Grothdarr can work for a sorc depending the build/rotation. Not all magsorc builds require ranged distance.

My magsorc (who has my highest dps of 10 characters), gets up close and personal, usually well within the range of Grothdarr, which can proc literally all the time.

I use Lightning form and Surge, which means every second I am damaging enemies close to me, and because my crit is well over 60%, at least every 2 seconds the damage is a crit and I am getting a heal of at least 2.5k. The dps created from this plus Grothdarr, can be very effective and its great survivability, particularly when adding in a shield when needed.

While many of the other sorc skills in a rotation may be ranged dot and single target, they dont actually need to be at range to be used effectively.

If a boss is dealing crazy aoe, then I may need to open up the range. Other sets like Valkyn Skoria or Llambris can then replace Grothdarr.

Anyhoo, just thought I would stand up for Grothdar!

ps, a sorc focused on shock damage can of course also keep large numbers of enemy off balance, which increases group dps.

pps, I am aware the OP is concerned with a ranged build.