Can MagSorc be a strong ranged dps? (pve)

Joxer61

Ok, I know it may seem like a really lame question but I aske because so many builds these are centered around being in melee range, whether its due to the monster set procs or boundless storm range or whatever. But, because of reasons I don't need to get into I need to play as a ranged dps as much as possible, and I prefer magicka. I have a NB and Templar but was looking at Sorc simply because I don't have one and thought hey, why not?
I mean yes, I can just use all ranged skills but in doing so will the build be any good? And yes, I know my skills and such come into play but just generally speaking can a magSorc be a strong ranged dps? Thanks all!!

WrathOfInnos

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

WuffyCerulei

Oh yes, with both either petsorc or non-pet sorc. A lot of builds will say Zaan for the monster set, but it’s pretty much a cheese set. Ilambris, Skoria, or Maw of the Infernal (for pet builds) do pretty good aoe wise and can be used at range.

SoLooney

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

Surazel

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

Joxer61

Surazel wrote: »

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

But looking at a purely ranged dps option, and I have a Magblade, just looking at something different. Isnt Magplar more or less melee as well due to jabs? If I can do decent enough on a magplar as ranged then I will go that route for sure. Also, isn't a Sorc rotation prett straight forward as well?

Surazel

Joxer61 wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

But looking at a purely ranged dps option, and I have a Magblade, just looking at something different. Isnt Magplar more or less melee as well due to jabs? If I can do decent enough on a magplar as ranged then I will go that route for sure. Also, isn't a Sorc rotation prett straight forward as well?

You play ele weapon on a MagPlar ranged build. No jabs....
Sorc is not static due to the different uptimes from LL (10s) wall (8s) and curse... ( 12s? Not really sure)
On MagPlar Spear and Wall have same uptime (8s) so easier in my opinion.
So pick MagPlar

Sparr0w

Magplar can out dps magblade at range, have a great exe and shards perma on the group helps out healers too

Magsorc have less dps and sustain is a lot worse, I have to run balance to sustain a light attack rotation. Really groups only bring magsorcs for conduit and their minor group buff (sorcery?), tho a lot of groups are running sorc healers now for this.

Surazel

Sparr0w wrote: »

Magplar can out dps magblade at range, have a great exe and shards perma on the group helps out healers too

Magsorc have less dps and sustain is a lot worse, I have to run balance to sustain a light attack rotation. Really groups only bring magsorcs for conduit and their minor group buff (sorcery?), tho a lot of groups are running sorc healers now for this.

Its minor prophecy
Minor sorcery is from Templar

cpuScientist

Sparr0w wrote: »

Magplar can out dps magblade at range, have a great exe and shards perma on the group helps out healers too

Magsorc have less dps and sustain is a lot worse, I have to run balance to sustain a light attack rotation. Really groups only bring magsorcs for conduit and their minor group buff (sorcery?), tho a lot of groups are running sorc healers now for this.

This! except yeah prophecy.

MagPlar is stupid easy rotation which yields higher dps has bettwr sustain and a better execute. Gives a buff and shards on melee group.

MagBlade higher dps as well and better sustain and doesn't need beserk help.

MagDen lower dps but much better sustain, so at times that DPS is better.

Sorc could be high getting pet buffs so maybe if you don't mind heavy weaves could be good. But light attack weaves are horrid till they give sustain.

WrathOfInnos

SoLooney wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

For sure both Magplar and Magblade both pull higher DPS than Sorc. I was just pointing out that Sorc is the only class that has no reason to ever be in melee range, which sounds like OP’s desire. Every Nightblade I know uses Soul Harvest at times, and Templars also have a few skills that require you to get close if you want to maximize DPS.

cpuScientist

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

For sure both Magplar and Magblade both pull higher DPS than Sorc. I was just pointing out that Sorc is the only class that has no reason to ever be in melee range, which sounds like OP’s desire. Every Nightblade I know uses Soul Harvest at times, and Templars also have a few skills that require you to get close if you want to maximize DPS.

Yeah understandable. But even without those added skills magBlade and magPlar are better ranged options with higher dps and sustain.

Somewhere

Well, if you go the non-pet route you're entirely outclassed by nightblade and templar as others have been saying. If you're willing to go with some pets, I've had a lot of success on the PTS with running a setup that's identical to a non-pet sorcerer, but you slot the twilight as well. Now that pets inherit your critical rate, CP bonuses, etc, the twilight itself can add a very sizable chunk of damage. I have been averaging a good 54k DPS solo buffed with this set up, which is certainly respectable. Ilambris works fairly well with this since you have lightning damage from the pet + liquid lightning, and fire damage from blockade + dual inferno staves if you wanted to go full range. Although I don't really think it's necessary in every situation.

Illuvatarr

Mag sorc much stronger on test with pet changes and amplitude.(inappropriate name for ability but whatever).

WrathOfInnos

cpuScientist wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

For sure both Magplar and Magblade both pull higher DPS than Sorc. I was just pointing out that Sorc is the only class that has no reason to ever be in melee range, which sounds like OP’s desire. Every Nightblade I know uses Soul Harvest at times, and Templars also have a few skills that require you to get close if you want to maximize DPS.

Yeah understandable. But even without those added skills magBlade and magPlar are better ranged options with higher dps and sustain.

Also true, and disappointing. Primarily caused by lack of Magicka sustain. Sorcs can burst nearly as well as Nightblades and Templars, but they need to give up about 5-10% of their damage potential in order to have decent Magicka recovery.

cpuScientist

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag sorc much stronger on test with pet changes and amplitude.(inappropriate name for ability but whatever).

Yeah the problem with sorc is just the sustain. Help that and it is just like the rest a really darn solid class. Just fix the sustain

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Absolutely. That said, they are behind mNB and mTemplar as ranged DPS. Certainly knock yourself out and make a sorc, but of course, I think you should have 2 or 3 of every class. haha.

The pushback is as follows. What does a sorc do for you that magic NB and Templar dont? In a raid group, more than one sorc becomes pretty redundant. In terms of damage, they go 1.NB 2. Templar. 3 Sorc. In terms of ease of rotation, they go 1. Templar 2. Sorc. 3. Nightblade.

So while I can certainly understand not wanting to play a very complicated dynamic rotation with a NB, I dont see what true advantage sorc gives you for DPS especially when a Templar is going to beat it and the rotation is as simple as it comes. Sure Magplars can be played dynamically, but the static version of their rotation doesnt leave much on the table. The same is not true for the other classes in my experience.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Surazel wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Surazel wrote: »

You should play Zaan ( if you can stay melee for sure ) or double Crit Monster set btw. No skoria pls... ( double Crit increase your dps around 4%, so if your Monster set is lower than 4% choose the crit sets )
I would go magblade or MagPlar because they outdps the Sorc.... and MagPlar Rotation is pretty easy.

Greetz
Sura

But looking at a purely ranged dps option, and I have a Magblade, just looking at something different. Isnt Magplar more or less melee as well due to jabs? If I can do decent enough on a magplar as ranged then I will go that route for sure. Also, isn't a Sorc rotation prett straight forward as well?

You play ele weapon on a MagPlar ranged build. No jabs....
Sorc is not static due to the different uptimes from LL (10s) wall (8s) and curse... ( 12s? Not really sure)
On MagPlar Spear and Wall have same uptime (8s) so easier in my opinion.
So pick MagPlar

Probably should have read the whole post before ranting, but this is what I was getting at. To make a sorc and NB sing, you need to play them dynamically. You really dont with magplar. On a magplar, I only use jabs in trash. For single target, use the psijic spammable.

Magplar rotation is so freaking easy. Its just a big circle. Magplar in the current meta is about as simple as we have seen since pet sorcs were all the rage shortly after the buffed pets the first time around. There is no easier way to break 40k on a self buffed dummy IMO. You can make use of skoria and zaan depending on how close you can get. The difference between a static (circular) and dynamic (manage everything on their own timers) rotation is closer on magplar then the other two.

Sorc rotation is trickier. You really want to juggle most of your buffs dynamically, and you have an unpredictable proc to manage. The nature of frags also means your parse is more RNG dependent. If you try to play them statically, you will see a bigger DPS loss than on magplar. Sorcs also have the worst sustain of the lot.

NB rotation is the hardest, but with risk comes a bigger upside. Not only do you want to juggle all your buffs independently, merciless is more difficult to manage than frags IMO. NBs also penalize you the most if your weave is not perfect.

robpr

Magsorc is almost ideal for ranged build, you can pull big numbers even without any monster set. Especially pet builds got buffed drastically with PTS changes and new Implosion passive. I prefer this setup, Siroria, Acuity, Master Inferno front, MA back, Shadow mundus. Of course Clench as spammable, it's cheaper even than Ele Weapon. Notice how high is Matriarch.

Grianasteri

Yes,

My magsorc has the highest DPS of all my characters (9).

Joxer61

So looking back on this you all reckon someone who struggles with rotations would be better off on a Magplar, still able to pump some decent dps and be viable in runs? Kk, thanks all!!!!
Gonna wait til patch and make a Sorc….ya never know!!!

Joxer61

Grianasteri wrote: »

Yes,

My magsorc has the highest DPS of all my characters (9).

share your build?

Vyvrhel

SoLooney wrote: »

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult.

Also the mage guild ulti.

Vyvrhel

Somewhere wrote: »

I have been averaging a good 54k DPS solo buffed with this set up, which is certainly respectable.

What is your build and gear, the standard Necro, Ilambris and Perfect Siroria?

cbritomiranda

SoLooney wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

this

Commancho

Maybe magblades are better as single target, but magsorcs can wipe hordes of trash ultra fast and they are usefull in fights with multiple bosses at once. Sorcs also have way better survivalibity thanks to still powerfull magic shields <despite what some people are claiming> and overall better magicka sustain thanks to dark exchange. You don't have to run pets if you don't want to - I don't xD

WrathOfInnos

Commancho wrote: »

Maybe magblades are better as single target, but magsorcs can wipe hordes of trash ultra fast and they are usefull in fights with multiple bosses at once. Sorcs also have way better survivalibity thanks to still powerfull magic shields <despite what some people are claiming> and overall better magicka sustain thanks to dark exchange. You don't have to run pets if you don't want to - I don't xD

Magblades and magsorcs have exactly the same strength shields. Both are capped at 50% of max health.

Sorcs are slightly better at AoE damage because Haunting Curse and Mage’s Wrath hit nearby targets (Cripple and Impale do not) and Lightning Flood is superior to Twisting Path (although Liquid Lightning is smaller. The only significant AoE is tied to pet Sorc specifically, since the Familar is fairly powerful.

Commancho

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Maybe magblades are better as single target, but magsorcs can wipe hordes of trash ultra fast and they are usefull in fights with multiple bosses at once. Sorcs also have way better survivalibity thanks to still powerfull magic shields <despite what some people are claiming> and overall better magicka sustain thanks to dark exchange. You don't have to run pets if you don't want to - I don't xD

Magblades and magsorcs have exactly the same strength shields. Both are capped at 50% of max health.

Sorcs are slightly better at AoE damage because Haunting Curse and Mage’s Wrath hit nearby targets (Cripple and Impale do not) and Lightning Flood is superior to Twisting Path (although Liquid Lightning is smaller. The only significant AoE is tied to pet Sorc specifically, since the Familar is fairly powerful.

Well sorcerer has additional bound aegies which basicly gives you immortality for 3s...

Also you need to look at the class from far perspective. Comparing most popular abilities on the bars is not very accurate. It's very easy to build a sorcerer with great AoE capabilities based on lightning. You need to also include passives and monster sets & abilities which can proc them. For example Boundless Storm procs Grothdar almost all the time. Now, if we will include in the rotation Liquid Lightning, Boundless storm, Elemental Blockade, Endless Fury as AoE execute togheter with implosion passive as execution passive, and Elemental Rage (obviously lightning) as ultimate, then add 30% reduced ultimate cost, increased dmg from lightning and lightning enchant on lightning staff and then Grothdar on the top of that then you will realise the diffrence between Magblade and Magsorc.

sevomd69

SoLooney wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes, Mag Sorc is the most suitable ranged DPS. They can make the best use of Ilambris, unlike other classes that rely on melee range for Zaan. And all of the Sorcerer ultimates can be used from range, unlike Nightblade.

Mag sorcs are strong range dps but they are outclassed by magblades if you're talking pure single target dps

You forget magblades can use skoria. May not be as strong as ilambris but it's still a great option

Magblades have a much better execute and its range is far

Sorcs and magblades can both use destro ult. I guess if you're talking about the storm atro

Sorcs are only really wanted for that conduit synergy, otherwise, mag dps is gonna be magblades preferably

Atro synergy also...

WrathOfInnos

Commancho wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Commancho wrote: »

Maybe magblades are better as single target, but magsorcs can wipe hordes of trash ultra fast and they are usefull in fights with multiple bosses at once. Sorcs also have way better survivalibity thanks to still powerfull magic shields <despite what some people are claiming> and overall better magicka sustain thanks to dark exchange. You don't have to run pets if you don't want to - I don't xD

Magblades and magsorcs have exactly the same strength shields. Both are capped at 50% of max health.

Sorcs are slightly better at AoE damage because Haunting Curse and Mage’s Wrath hit nearby targets (Cripple and Impale do not) and Lightning Flood is superior to Twisting Path (although Liquid Lightning is smaller. The only significant AoE is tied to pet Sorc specifically, since the Familar is fairly powerful.

Well sorcerer has additional bound aegies which basicly gives you immortality for 3s...

Also you need to look at the class from far perspective. Comparing most popular abilities on the bars is not very accurate. It's very easy to build a sorcerer with great AoE capabilities based on lightning. You need to also include passives and monster sets & abilities which can proc them. For example Boundless Storm procs Grothdar almost all the time. Now, if we will include in the rotation Liquid Lightning, Boundless storm, Elemental Blockade, Endless Fury as AoE execute togheter with implosion passive as execution passive, and Elemental Rage (obviously lightning) as ultimate, then add 30% reduced ultimate cost, increased dmg from lightning and lightning enchant on lightning staff and then Grothdar on the top of that then you will realise the diffrence between Magblade and Magsorc.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on a few of these. Boundless storm and Grothdarr are both melee range and don’t help either class for ranged DPS. Additionally, Boundless really shouldn’t be used is coordinated groups now that Frost Cloak hits 12 players (unless you’re lacking a Warden, which is a bad idea for Minor Toughness).

Any class can slot a lightning staff and destro ulti for good AoE, but they all give up single target damage to do so. Maybe Sorcerer sacrifices slightly less, but they’re still losing something by not using double inferno.

And Implosion no longer exists, which is one less reason to specialize in lightning damage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Just FYI, I am going to go ahead and retract some of my prior comments on this (we did get a new patch afterall).

Mag Sorc is pretty darn strong this patch. My first parse last night broke 50k on a 6 mil self buffed, and I havent touched my sorc in PVE in like a year. My CP and gear were frankly a mess, and the rotation definitely has a lot of room still for improvement.

In terms of difficulty, I still think it goes NB>Sorc>Templar, but the Sorc rotation this patch really isnt that bad, even when played dynamically. Also, if you use a Breton, sustain is simply not an issue. I am still rather blown away just how good sustain is on a Breton. I did one parse on a 3 mill dummy with an altmer, ran out of magic right around 20% dummy health (just as I got to execute), race changed, did the same thing but when the dummy died, my magic was still at 60%.

Magplar is still my recommendation if you struggle with rotation, but Sorc can definitely compete this patch. The twilight is doing close to 6k DPS without even pressing a button, and breton solves a sorcs biggest problem, sustain.