Templar Class Identity and Skills *Warning: Long Read*

CompM4s

No to all of it. Templars are finally in a decent and balanced spot. No major changes needed, especially a complete remake that you showed. At the most small incremental changes if needed later.

Checkmath

Interestin read, cool ideas. But in general I do not like the direction of those changes. Lot of stuff would be dumbing down templars, making skills more similar to other classes' skills (stam shard is just like gripping shards or the ash cloud of dks) or giving some specs and skills too much power.

Maybe a few ideas could be implemented, which could help the templar class. But your suggestion in total would be something OP, with more similarity to other classes than before and something entirely different than what templars are now.

templesus

Yes to Stamina Shards, Magicka based shield, return of Major Mending, and major sorcery/brutality buff in the class line. No to everything else.

As someone who mains Magplar/Stamplar in PvP and PvE, I can confidently say these changes would make them OP.

Jabbs_Giggity

cpuScientist wrote: »

BUT if you had to change 1 thing only about each magPlar and stamPlar for PvP what would it be?

For me the one thing would be an ideal access to self buff Major Sorcery/Brutality like the option mentioned.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Aedric Weapons - Imbue your weapons with Aedric Powers granting Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds. Cost = 3240 Magicka, Instant, Self-cast for 20 seconds.
Morph 1 - Infuse your Weapons causing all Light/Heavy attacks and weapon abilities to do Magic Damage for 20 seconds. This would allow melee setups to use magic-based damage and restore primary resource. Cost = 3240 Magicka, Instant, Self-cast for 20 seconds.
Morph 2 - Converts to a Stamina ability. Grants Major Brutality, increasing Weapon Damage by 20% for 20 seconds. Aedric Spear abilities Heal for 20% of the damage done.
Cost = 3258 Stamina, Instant, Self-cast for 20 seconds.

Honestly, even implementing this as a rework to Imbue Weapons in Psijic Skill line would be amazing, giving all Classes the option to change Melee Physical weapons to Melee Magic and giving alternative options to the Major buffs outside of target only buffs or forcing builds in to specific weapon lines.

Would love a Magic shield option for Templar that's viable over Harness.

A lot of ideas listed probably would be OP as they are written. But if you really break down each class, other classes have more strengths than weaknesses compared to Templars. The only real argument I see in a majority of community posts is "Templars have cleanse..soooo...." which in reality the high cost of cleanse compared to how easily dots and debuffs are applied now make it utterly useless most of the time. Not to mention we are mostly forced to be Vamps for mobility, unless you grind Psijic for acceleration.
Most other classes can self heal on par or better than MagPlar spamming BoL, which when you get to that point you're just prolonging the inevitable anyways because we have no way of effectively evading, resetting and turning the fight.

StarOfElyon

Yeah, it's hard to get off your heals as a MagPlar once you get backed up. You really count on the opponent failing to finish you off while you spam BoL. That's about the only way to climb back into the fight.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Omg tldr wall o text

Also: no to everything

+1

Stx wrote: »

Templars should have a class option to gain major sorcery...

We have minor, 10%. Entropy/pots/armor sets/group. Not every classes needs to have everything.

Rikumaru

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Unforgiving Shards - Enemies in the target area are snared, reducing their movement speed by 60% for 8 seconds.

u wot

Jabbs_Giggity

md3788 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

This is just inaccurate. Blazing Spear is used by Magicka damage dealers and it is just as strong, if not stronger than Wall of Elements. Converting this to a stamina ability and forcing them to use Luminous Shards would be a straight nerf for Magplars

Blazing Spear is a great DPS skill for Magicka Templars and I never said otherwise. I mentioned my personal experience playing and theory crafting with other Templars that most do not slot this as a DPS skill, unless in PVE/Dungeons/Trials. Many of the changes suggested would absolutely allow alternative DPS skills to be slotted at better efficiency for MagPlars, while giving some Tanking options to Tanks.

You just hit on the biggest problem with balancing in ESO. Balancing for PvP affects PvE, and vise versa. While no one in PvP may use blazing, all Magplars in PvE do. There isn't another AOE dot that can replace it.

Just wanted to touch on this response. See below for comparison between Shards and Wall of Fire at base stats with no buffs/passives/sets/etc. Only this equipped is Willpower Gold Nirn Destro Fire staff to get appropriate skill-base stat on WoF.
Both skills do not include Critical multipliers.

Spear Shard: 1452 Magic Dmg, 426 Magic DoT 8 sec = 3,408; Total = 4,860
(Rank 4) Luminous: 1500 Magic Dmg, 440 Magic DoT 8 sec = 3,520; Total = 5,020
(Rank 4) Blazing: 1500 Magic Dmg, 629 Magic DoT 8 sec = 5,032; Total = 6,532

Wall of Fire: 637 Flame Dmg of 6 sec = 3,822 (20% increase to burned enemies = 4,586)
Unstable: 637 Flame Dmg of 6 sec = 3,822 (20% increase to burned enemies = 4,586) End of effect 1,020 Fire Dmg (burned 20% = 1,224); Total = 4,842/(5,810)
Blockade: 637 Flame Dmg of 8 sec = 5,096 (20% increase to burned enemies = 6,115)

So, in result 1 point to @md3788 for generalized comparison between the two. However, in PVE dugeons/Trials/etc. do you see a lot of Magplar DPS in group? I am asking because I do not do these PVE events anymore and honestly do not know. I have heard that Magplar parses can be relatively high (on a stationary dummy target that does not fight back), but do not know how welcomed they are over other classes. Making this ability a Stamina morph would open the door to many possibilities for the Templar.
Examples are Tanking. Maybe by keep the resources synergy on Luminous Shards for Magicka users would be ideal and adding the Snare to the Stamina morph for CC.
Stamina DPS would have a reasonable DoT at range from the Templar class. While on the argument of PVE vs. PVP balancing > This would help both. As a Stamina class in PVE you cannot always damage in Melee range for some mechanics and this would give an alternative option over Endless Hail. For PVP this would give a ranged DoT to pressure enemies and Snare them to allow you to position yourself in Melee range.

Brrrofski

So you just want templar buffed to high heaven basically?

Dude, even adding major mending alone is a potent enough buff let alone all the other stuff here.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Jabbs_Giggity are you comparing wall and shards to each other like a magplar dps would have to choose between them? a magplar dps will have both shards and wall. just like a magdk will have eruption and wall. just like a magsorc will have liquid lightning and wall. just like a magblade will have twisting path and wall. just like a magden will have winters revenge and wall.

Jabbs_Giggity

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jabbs_Giggity are you comparing wall and shards to each other like a magplar dps would have to choose between them? a magplar dps will have both shards and wall. just like a magdk will have eruption and wall. just like a magsorc will have liquid lightning and wall. just like a magblade will have twisting path and wall. just like a magden will have winters revenge and wall.

Thank you, as I have stated I do not play end-game PVE content. This is information that I am looking for from other players.

Jabbs_Giggity

Brrrofski wrote: »

So you just want templar buffed to high heaven basically?

Dude, even adding major mending alone is a potent enough buff let alone all the other stuff here.

No, I do not want the Templar "buffed to high heaven". Never once did I request, state, demand or imply that all reworks in OP should be implemented. I outlined class skills singularly to suggest alternative ways they could be reworked.

This is getting frustrating that many implications, of any forum post for that matter, can and will be misconstrued to the single-minded oppinion of someone who only wishes to "Troll" posts.

Templars have been gutten since launch. Truth.
Templars have been overbuffed, then immediately nerfed to the bone - patch after patch. Truth.
Templars have had individual identity ripped from this game by making "Any class do anything just as good as anyone else" - Examples are nerfing Templar healing to insanely over-buff new Warden class at its launch. Which by the way, for all you people who say Minor buffs are exculsive to each class or Insert Class shouldn't have X Major buff because This argument...Other classes have gone away from their identity to GET said buffs. Example: DK has Snare removal on Wings, Expedition on chains, Major Mending now added to both Obsidian Shield base and morphs. Wardens get Major Fracture, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Expedition, Major Endurance, Minor Berserk, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Defile, Minor Lifesteal, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Mending, Minor Toughness, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Major Ward, Minor Protection...Ugh I am exhausted from listing 60% of the buffs in the game on ONE Class for just class abilities...

Please don't sit there and insult my intelligence saying Insert statement without legitimate reasoning is not possible.

DeadlyRecluse

As a fellow templar main...

I'm a "no" on a lot of these, too. Templar feels pretty good right now, just needs the CC suite tuned up a bit, imo.

Some of these suggestions just feel like playstyle preferences--I run a dark flare build from time to time--these changes would be kind of a bummer AND make it super overpowered at the same time (homing dark flares, RIP everyone except magDKs). Same with the changes to Healing Ritual--I have a build that uses that heal heavily and it's amazing--takes a very specific playstyle, though.

The GOOD changes I see suggested are the Balanced warrior passive adjustment, a wee cost reduction on Javelin, and reducing range/increasing speed on toppling charge.

I also like the suggestions about Remembrance and adding Major Mending back into the mix, but those might be too strong.

Everything else just seems like changes for changes sake.

md3788

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

This is just inaccurate. Blazing Spear is used by Magicka damage dealers and it is just as strong, if not stronger than Wall of Elements. Converting this to a stamina ability and forcing them to use Luminous Shards would be a straight nerf for Magplars

Blazing Spear is a great DPS skill for Magicka Templars and I never said otherwise. I mentioned my personal experience playing and theory crafting with other Templars that most do not slot this as a DPS skill, unless in PVE/Dungeons/Trials. Many of the changes suggested would absolutely allow alternative DPS skills to be slotted at better efficiency for MagPlars, while giving some Tanking options to Tanks.

You just hit on the biggest problem with balancing in ESO. Balancing for PvP affects PvE, and vise versa. While no one in PvP may use blazing, all Magplars in PvE do. There isn't another AOE dot that can replace it.

Just wanted to touch on this response. See below for comparison between Shards and Wall of Fire at base stats with no buffs/passives/sets/etc. Only this equipped is Willpower Gold Nirn Destro Fire staff to get appropriate skill-base stat on WoF.
Both skills do not include Critical multipliers.

Spear Shard: 1452 Magic Dmg, 426 Magic DoT 8 sec = 3,408; Total = 4,860
(Rank 4) Luminous: 1500 Magic Dmg, 440 Magic DoT 8 sec = 3,520; Total = 5,020
(Rank 4) Blazing: 1500 Magic Dmg, 629 Magic DoT 8 sec = 5,032; Total = 6,532

Wall of Fire: 637 Flame Dmg of 6 sec = 3,822 (20% increase to burned enemies = 4,586)
Unstable: 637 Flame Dmg of 6 sec = 3,822 (20% increase to burned enemies = 4,586) End of effect 1,020 Fire Dmg (burned 20% = 1,224); Total = 4,842/(5,810)
Blockade: 637 Flame Dmg of 8 sec = 5,096 (20% increase to burned enemies = 6,115)

So, in result 1 point to @md3788 for generalized comparison between the two. However, in PVE dugeons/Trials/etc. do you see a lot of Magplar DPS in group? I am asking because I do not do these PVE events anymore and honestly do not know. I have heard that Magplar parses can be relatively high (on a stationary dummy target that does not fight back), but do not know how welcomed they are over other classes. Making this ability a Stamina morph would open the door to many possibilities for the Templar.
Examples are Tanking. Maybe by keep the resources synergy on Luminous Shards for Magicka users would be ideal and adding the Snare to the Stamina morph for CC.
Stamina DPS would have a reasonable DoT at range from the Templar class. While on the argument of PVE vs. PVP balancing > This would help both. As a Stamina class in PVE you cannot always damage in Melee range for some mechanics and this would give an alternative option over Endless Hail. For PVP this would give a ranged DoT to pressure enemies and Snare them to allow you to position yourself in Melee range.

So to clarify what I was getting at. I was speaking on how impactful it would be to remove blazing from a MagPlar because it is one of our strongest skills. I compared it to Blockade because everyone uses it and knows its strength. I wasn't implying its one or the other. ALL magplars run both in PvE. And to answer your question, yes MagPlars are used quite often in PvE dungeons and trials. MagPlars and MagBlades are the best ranged DDs in the game (MagBlades probably win out in most trials due to their innate minor Berserk). So in places like Cloudrest and vAS, you can expect to see quite a few MagPlars in most groups. Ranged is the way to go on mini-trials due to them being punishing to Stam DDs. ZOS just buffed blazing spear. Let's enjoy it for a bit.

Vapirko

As a Stamplar main I do like some of these changes. Javalin costs too much for sure and needs a small reduction as Stamplar sustain is still pretty rough in PvP. But a lot of these changes would probably make Templar’s OP. It would also be cool to see a Stamina morph of the gap closer and a few other things.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

These changes would massively overtune Templar in pvp. 3 target BoL with 2 targets receiving the full value of the spell is crazy, plus major mending.

Having blinding flashes back would be crippling to anyone fighting you in a 1v1.

I play Templar, but I don’t want pvp to turn into Elder Templars Online, especially with all of the defensive power you want to give Temps, it would turn every 1v1 into a 20 minute pool noodle slapfight.

Anti_Virus

Best idea is the major sorcery/Brutality buff idea I would love that.

Jabbs_Giggity

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

These changes would massively overtune Templar in pvp. 3 target BoL with 2 targets receiving the full value of the spell is crazy, plus major mending.

Having blinding flashes back would be crippling to anyone fighting you in a 1v1.

I play Templar, but I don’t want pvp to turn into Elder Templars Online, especially with all of the defensive power you want to give Temps, it would turn every 1v1 into a 20 minute pool noodle slapfight.

A 3 Target BoL would work as a healer support role. Literally no different than a DK or Warden getting Major Mending (which was taken from Templars to give to them) and using Resto Staff skills. Also, the third target would be a smaller heal intended for self or Ally with more health than the other two targeted. It is getting extremely tiresom hearing people complain about BoL/HtD as if it is this super great skill...Nearly all other classes now have better heals that cost way less and can target themselves with 100% uptime. Templars BoL/HtD is never guarunteed to heal self because of whacky targeting.

Blinding Flashes would give Templars an opportunity to go offensive while maintaining defense. DK's wings have 50% reduction now and Talons that root (go behind your target and they can't hit yout), NB's have Cloak and Hysteria now affects 6 targets FOR 9 SECONDS with a bugged break free, Sorcs have Class shield + 2 additional shields to access and now Pets to use as mobile LoS, Wardens have shimmering and Expedition on demand, not so sure about Necros because I didn't buy Elsweyr.

As of right now, Templars have literally the worst defense of any class in the game. Our means of Protection (minor) is tied to using a buggy channel and (major) is tied to using a Healing Ultimate that roots us. Due to the need to constantly use LoS to survive on Templars standing in Rune for the bonus is hardly ever even used...

I don't think that any of these suggestions would make Templar OP. It would give the class back its identity - which has been stripped 100% from this game in order to spread our identity across now 3 other classes.

Please really think before you post @Jimmy_The_Fixer

OrphanHelgen

There is no identity. 95% of the "identity" sets are useless. All classes is same. Just roleplay writings on the skill tooltip that change.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

A 3 Target BoL would work as a healer support role.

temps had this, you might not know this, as it was changed in Patch 2.3.5, thieves guild patch, though with the main heal being 100% and the other 2 being 50% of that, it made almost all other heals pointless, as you get 75% of your team in a 4 man dungeon from 0 health to 100% in one cast.

Jabbs_Giggity

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

A 3 Target BoL would work as a healer support role.

temps had this, you might not know this, as it was changed in Patch 2.3.5, thieves guild patch, though with the main heal being 100% and the other 2 being 50% of that, it made almost all other heals pointless, as you get 75% of your team in a 4 man dungeon from 0 health to 100% in one cast.

I did know this. But I dont see the problem with that. Isn't that the point or a healer? To keep their groups from dying?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

A 3 Target BoL would work as a healer support role.

temps had this, you might not know this, as it was changed in Patch 2.3.5, thieves guild patch, though with the main heal being 100% and the other 2 being 50% of that, it made almost all other heals pointless, as you get 75% of your team in a 4 man dungeon from 0 health to 100% in one cast.

I did know this. But I dont see the problem with that. Isn't that the point or a healer? To keep their groups from dying?

so you would be fine just one skill making all other heals obsolete?

EtTuBrutus

This is why most people shouldn't be balancing skills.

Jabbs_Giggity

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

A 3 Target BoL would work as a healer support role.

temps had this, you might not know this, as it was changed in Patch 2.3.5, thieves guild patch, though with the main heal being 100% and the other 2 being 50% of that, it made almost all other heals pointless, as you get 75% of your team in a 4 man dungeon from 0 health to 100% in one cast.

I did know this. But I dont see the problem with that. Isn't that the point or a healer? To keep their groups from dying?

so you would be fine just one skill making all other heals obsolete?

Tell me why this would make all others obsolete? Right now, each class can nearly identically match the other in terms of healing competently because ZOS has chosen the direction of "every class can do everything". Templar healing identity has been completely removed from this game, making Templars arguably laughable as healers in comparison to other classes that have easy access to Major Mending (on top of other more useful buffs) and a Resto Staff.

If you're worried about PVP healing, well we already have a 50% reduction from Battle Spirit and Major Defile is much easier to access now as a counter. Or you can drop a Negate. I doubt that Solo DPS PVPers will slot BoL over HtD as healing allies for more makes less sense than a self heal.

Simple statements like this that is both bland and uninformative shows lack of knowledge on the subject. If you're going to state an argument, provide information to backup your claim.

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

This is why most people shouldn't be balancing skills.

Not sure who you're referring to. I did not create this topic and log as "This is how to balance the Templar". I created it as a feedback of what could be done to help get Templars their identity back. I also feel that I have engaged with pretty substantial feedback on reasonings and rebuttals to all, or nearly all, arguments against any ideas.

EtTuBrutus

Im referring to you jabbs. Im not saying your ideas wouldn't be fun, but many are not necessary and most are out of line. You also seem to not know how the impact you're having on different game modes and ways to play the class.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Tell me why this would make all others obsolete?

I lived it man, I was a temp healer since Feb 2015. You started in 2017, you have no idea what it was like.

. making Templars arguably laughable as healers in comparison to other classes that have easy access to Major Mending (on top of other more useful buffs) and a Resto Staff.

You're insane to think that major mending is a big deal. Healers are always overhealing and you don't need it.

As for other classes becoming great healer, that is fantastic as far as I can see, the game needs more healers and if people want to play that role, they ought to be able to on every class.

Jabbs_Giggity

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Tell me why this would make all others obsolete?

I lived it man, I was a temp healer since Feb 2015. You started in 2017, you have no idea what it was like.

. making Templars arguably laughable as healers in comparison to other classes that have easy access to Major Mending (on top of other more useful buffs) and a Resto Staff.

You're insane to think that major mending is a big deal. Healers are always overhealing and you don't need it.

As for other classes becoming great healer, that is fantastic as far as I can see, the game needs more healers and if people want to play that role, they ought to be able to on every class.

My forum start is 2017, Yes. However, I started playing ESO on PS4 at console launch - had it preordered months before it released. I switched over to Xbox in 2017 and had to restart my account. So, I do have every idea of what it was like.

Major Mending is not as big a deal in PVE as it is in PVP because of Battle Spirit. Healers do overheal - I agree with this.

I never argued that other classes should not be able to play the Healer role. I am arguing, however, that ZOS should not have stripped the Templar identity to make it so.

Jabbs_Giggity

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im referring to you jabbs. Im not saying your ideas wouldn't be fun, but many are not necessary and most are out of line. You also seem to not know how the impact you're having on different game modes and ways to play the class.

I still don't understand what you would consider "out of line". I also explicity stated at the very beginning of the post that the extent of my experience is more versed towards PVP - BG's, Open World and IC. Not that my PVE gameplay is not experienced, just not as fun to me so I choose not to PVE unless I have to anymore.

I understand that some of the OP suggestions may seem biased towards my view of gameplay compared to another's. Do you think that by referencing a specific suggestion followed by personal feedback would clarify a better, or alternate way to update something rather than blatenly saying, "No. You're wrong" with no reasoning whatsoever would be a better way to comment?

I mean if you're going to take the time to read a forum topic, go through the comments and derive a response it should at least be dignified with a well-thought-out response.

EtTuBrutus

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im referring to you jabbs. Im not saying your ideas wouldn't be fun, but many are not necessary and most are out of line. You also seem to not know how the impact you're having on different game modes and ways to play the class.

I still don't understand what you would consider "out of line". I also explicity stated at the very beginning of the post that the extent of my experience is more versed towards PVP - BG's, Open World and IC. Not that my PVE gameplay is not experienced, just not as fun to me so I choose not to PVE unless I have to anymore.

I understand that some of the OP suggestions may seem biased towards my view of gameplay compared to another's. Do you think that by referencing a specific suggestion followed by personal feedback would clarify a better, or alternate way to update something rather than blatenly saying, "No. You're wrong" with no reasoning whatsoever would be a better way to comment?

I mean if you're going to take the time to read a forum topic, go through the comments and derive a response it should at least be dignified with a well-thought-out response.

All you do is complain, look at your post. You think nearly everything needs a buff. You're biased, misinformed as you commonly mistake how skills work, and you want to change up the way the classes work.

This is also a necro post from the beginning of the year. Let's stop. It's a trap!!

Jabbs_Giggity

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im referring to you jabbs. Im not saying your ideas wouldn't be fun, but many are not necessary and most are out of line. You also seem to not know how the impact you're having on different game modes and ways to play the class.

I still don't understand what you would consider "out of line". I also explicity stated at the very beginning of the post that the extent of my experience is more versed towards PVP - BG's, Open World and IC. Not that my PVE gameplay is not experienced, just not as fun to me so I choose not to PVE unless I have to anymore.

I understand that some of the OP suggestions may seem biased towards my view of gameplay compared to another's. Do you think that by referencing a specific suggestion followed by personal feedback would clarify a better, or alternate way to update something rather than blatenly saying, "No. You're wrong" with no reasoning whatsoever would be a better way to comment?

I mean if you're going to take the time to read a forum topic, go through the comments and derive a response it should at least be dignified with a well-thought-out response.

All you do is complain, look at your post. You think nearly everything needs a buff. You're biased, misinformed as you commonly mistake how skills work, and you want to change up the way the classes work.

This is also a necro post from the beginning of the year. Let's stop. It's a trap!!

Failing to understand your statement "this is also a necro post from the beginning of the year"...The Necromancer Class is essentially a Templar and Warden mixed together, with hints of other classes. I have not played the class personally, so I'll refrain from commenting further. However, I have never posted about the Necro other than in the Templar Class Rep forum topic thread to point out the similarities of what Templar community has been asking for that was blatenly given to the new class instead.

How am I complaining? If you consider wanting changes made to a class that has extremely clunky mechanics, poor passives that do not synergize well with with active abilities - aside from a few - and an underperforming fluidity of utilizing LA weaving (which is now a prominent way to gain DPS) as complaining then you sir are the one who is biased.

If you Main a Templar, I cannot even fathom how you would not want support change to the current class status. Then again, you haven't contributed any concrete concepts, rebuttals or suggestions to share YOUR knowledge of the Class itself.

If you don't like my Thread Post, don't comment. It's that simple. Don't just go out of your way to attempt to nuke a thread post because you are too inept to accept opposition to your own bias.