comparison conceiled weapon vs suprise attack

Noctus

in my opinion suprise attack is way stronger. therefore conceiled weapon should get a buff. many people just ignore that skill becouse its underwhelming
the mayor fracture on suprise attack makes that skill great. conceiled weapons speedbuff isnt that helpfull pve and pvp wise.

kypranb14_ESO

I like the speed boost from Concealed Weapon. Combined with Refreshing Path and Shadowy Disguise, I move 55% faster while invisible for a few seconds. This combined with a stun, allows me to escape virtually all threats in battlegrounds unscathed.

Noctus

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

I like the speed boost from Concealed Weapon. Combined with Refreshing Path and Shadowy Disguise, I move 55% faster while invisible for a few seconds. This combined with a stun, allows me to escape virtually all threats in battlegrounds unscathed.

u could also use the vampire skillline u will break the soundbarrier but noone will see u to tell the tale .
be honest do u rly use the skill instead of having it equiped for the passive.

i think stamina version even costs less and does higher dmg

Qbiken

Just remove fracture from surprise attack, a hard hitting spammable shouldn´t come with a powerful debuff. It´s not like stamblades lack damage anyway.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Use swallow soul?

Noctus

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Use swallow soul?

has lower damage and can be reflected. beeing hardcountered by dk is annoying and there is no other class skill that magblade can use. i might racechange that character of mine and go stamina. to many disadvantages

Starlock

It seems like the problem comes from how sneak attacks are calculated for stamina abilities versus magicka abilities. If you sneak attack with a magicka ability, the damage is just suckful compared to stamina abilities. My tank - wearing his tanking gear - can one-shot overland mobs with uppercut from sneak. Yet my magical cat - wearing more damage-focused gear - cannot one-shot overland mobs using concealed weapon from sneak. It makes no darned sense at all.

Royaji

Starlock wrote: »

It seems like the problem comes from how sneak attacks are calculated for stamina abilities versus magicka abilities. If you sneak attack with a magicka ability, the damage is just suckful compared to stamina abilities. My tank - wearing his tanking gear - can one-shot overland mobs with uppercut from sneak. Yet my magical cat - wearing more damage-focused gear - cannot one-shot overland mobs using concealed weapon from sneak. It makes no darned sense at all.

It makes perfect sense. Can your tank one shot from stealth with Surprise Attack? You are comparing two entirely different skills, a cast time skill and an instant cast spammable. And it is indeed possible to one-shot overland mobs with Crystal Blast or Dark Flare.

There is no difference in how damage in calculated between magicka and stamina.

kypranb14_ESO

Noctus wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

I like the speed boost from Concealed Weapon. Combined with Refreshing Path and Shadowy Disguise, I move 55% faster while invisible for a few seconds. This combined with a stun, allows me to escape virtually all threats in battlegrounds unscathed.

u could also use the vampire skillline u will break the soundbarrier but noone will see u to tell the tale .
be honest do u rly use the skill instead of having it equiped for the passive.

i think stamina version even costs less and does higher dmg

Vampire doesn't effect movement speed while using Shadowy Disguise, as it is invisibility not Sneak, and has no movement speed penalty.

To answer the second part of your question, yes I do use it. When a DK is spamming wings after I have bursted him down it works great as a finisher.

I am a Magicka Nightblade, the damage on Surprise Attack is garbage by comparison. because I have 45k max Magicka and ~4k Spell Damage fully buffed. Compare that to my measly 10k max Stamina, and 2k Weapon Damage fully buffed...

On a Stamblade however, Surprise Attack is a no-brainer.

Starlock

Royaji wrote: »

It makes perfect sense. Can your tank one shot from stealth with Surprise Attack? You are comparing two entirely different skills, a cast time skill and an instant cast spammable.

Okay then, well... when I briefly converted the character using concealed weapon to a stamina character using surprise attack, it was basically the same result. Surprise attack was stupidly more effective when hitting from stealth. Stupidly, stupidly so.

Noctus

Starlock wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

It makes perfect sense. Can your tank one shot from stealth with Surprise Attack? You are comparing two entirely different skills, a cast time skill and an instant cast spammable.

Okay then, well... when I briefly converted the character using concealed weapon to a stamina character using surprise attack, it was basically the same result. Surprise attack was stupidly more effective when hitting from stealth. Stupidly, stupidly so.

i wanted to say that the debuff does make a big difference but u used it on a mob for which u overstacked anyway so... u might be on to something

Royaji

You do understand why, right? Major Fracture. Try putting Ele Drain on your target before using concealed and it will be comparable in damage. But that speed buff is pretty much unreachable for any stamina build, btw.

Noctus

Royaji wrote: »

You do understand why, right? Major Fracture. Try putting Ele Drain on your target before using concealed and it will be comparable in damage. But that speed buff is pretty much unreachable for any stamina build, btw.

he used it on an overland mob so he probably overstacked anyway

Royaji

Noctus wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

You do understand why, right? Major Fracture. Try putting Ele Drain on your target before using concealed and it will be comparable in damage. But that speed buff is pretty much unreachable for any stamina build, btw.

he used it on an overland mob so he probably overstacked anyway

It's not common to hit 9100 penetration solo withouth any source of penetration, especially on stamina. And knowing Starlock by her forum posts I'm very doubtful she was using Lover, Spriggan's and something like 30-40 points in Piercing Stikes.

Starlock

Royaji wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

You do understand why, right? Major Fracture. Try putting Ele Drain on your target before using concealed and it will be comparable in damage. But that speed buff is pretty much unreachable for any stamina build, btw.

he used it on an overland mob so he probably overstacked anyway

It's not common to hit 9100 penetration solo withouth any source of penetration, especially on stamina. And knowing Starlock by her forum posts I'm very doubtful she was using Lover, Spriggan's and something like 30-40 points in Piercing Stikes.

Yeah, I don't remember exactly what I put on her but you're certainly right that I wouldn't have approached this from a min-maxing standpoint. At the time I did this, I was toying with the idea of making a dedicated nightblade healer. I didn't want two magicka nightblades, so I thought "hmm... let's convert murder claws to stamina for a bit and see how that feels for her." During that process, I was just *floored* by how much more damage she could do from stealth with stamina abilities. That was without really min-maxing it or optimizing the stamina version of her in any way. I didn't feel like the difference should have been that dramatic (like, over twice as much damage dramatic). I don't know if this is the case, but it feels like there's gotta be something different about how weapon/stamina stealth attacks are calculated relative to spell/magicka attacks for that to happen. I'll defer to the number crunchers on that one.

Iskiab

It’s the medium armour passives. Bonus weapon damage and additional crit.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Noctus wrote: »

in my opinion suprise attack is way stronger. therefore conceiled weapon should get a buff. many people just ignore that skill becouse its underwhelming
the mayor fracture on suprise attack makes that skill great. conceiled weapons speedbuff isnt that helpfull pve and pvp wise.

Or nerf Surprise attack :E

Seriously though, its the best spammable stam ability in the game.

Tonturri

Change SA to have a defensive buff and remove the offensive buff (minor prot and minor vit while on active bar? Just one?)

Change Mark to be not godawful most of the time and have it keep the armor debuff. Maybe a stam morph? See nb discord.

Change Concealed to be useful for more than repositioning or running away - damage buff along the lines of 'hitting a target with the skill makes that target take x% increased damage from the nb's next direct damage single target skill'?

What this will do
- Tone down stam nb while making up for the nerf in areas they are lacking, while at the same time
- -Providing another viable option if a stamnb wishes to continue utilizing a playstyle involving high pen - just requires a little more now, but is compensated for by some..buff to that playstyle. Breaks even (at least, that'd be the goal).
- Give magnb a dps boost in melee, attempting to revive to some extent the melee magnb playstyle which seems to be struggling. Also rewards them with higher damage for being in melee, which will help with pve dps parses but, again, require melee. Also provides synergy by specifying that the 'takes increased damage from next single target damaging skill' is NOT consumed by a light attack or other damage, allowing successive concealed weapons to gain a damage boost, and syneegizing with bow. It will provide a dps boost, but require melee and landing las/right rotation to benefit.
- Help stam nb in melee dps..? Major fracture from a dps spammable is useless in pve because it is already covered by the tank. This will allow them to benefit from slotting the skill and make things easier on the healer while at the same time leaving their dps in a trials environment alone.

Iskiab

MagNBs don’t go in melee because they lack survivability, you could double the damage and I still wouldn’t melee. I play a different class when I get a melee itch.

Plus, what would the self healing be using concealed weapon, just siphoning strikes? Ground effects alone would be enough to kill you. You’d be the equivalent of a pve trash mob where your team mates were all bosses, can be ignored and cleaved down.

Noctus

Iskiab wrote: »

MagNBs don’t go in melee because they lack survivability, you could double the damage and I still wouldn’t melee. I play a different class when I get a melee itch.

Plus, what would the self healing be using concealed weapon, just siphoning strikes? Ground effects alone would be enough to kill you. You’d be the equivalent of a pve trash mob where your team mates were all bosses, can be ignored and cleaved down.

trust me i can deal with that . i have something working allready its just i think its unfair and unbalanced that stamina gets such a great skill while the mag morph is trash in comparison its rare that ppl actually use that.

Tonturri

Iskiab wrote: »

MagNBs don’t go in melee because they lack survivability, you could double the damage and I still wouldn’t melee. I play a different class when I get a melee itch.

Plus, what would the self healing be using concealed weapon, just siphoning strikes? Ground effects alone would be enough to kill you. You’d be the equivalent of a pve trash mob where your team mates were all bosses, can be ignored and cleaved down.

There are skills in the game other than Funnel/Swallow that heal/mitigate damage.

Not sure what you're getting at. Obviously, it isn't 'optimal', but you're exaggerating here.

MartiniDaniels

Sometimes when I feel over-confident i just slot it as spammable and go as melee magblade. It actually has ~10% more damage then eleweapon or swallow soul and has very short, easy-to-weave animation. Also it allows to maintain very high uptime of major ward/resolve.. so it's great skill anyway and it rises your utilization of Zaan too

Noctus

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sometimes when I feel over-confident i just slot it as spammable and go as melee magblade. It actually has ~10% more damage then eleweapon or swallow soul and has very short, easy-to-weave animation. Also it allows to maintain very high uptime of major ward/resolve.. so it's great skill anyway and it rises your utilization of Zaan too

still mate we rly have a reason to be jealous of stamina characters unless we get a magicka melee weapon next update

MartiniDaniels

Noctus wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sometimes when I feel over-confident i just slot it as spammable and go as melee magblade. It actually has ~10% more damage then eleweapon or swallow soul and has very short, easy-to-weave animation. Also it allows to maintain very high uptime of major ward/resolve.. so it's great skill anyway and it rises your utilization of Zaan too

still mate we rly have a reason to be jealous of stamina characters unless we get a magicka melee weapon next update

I'm only in for buff of concealed weapon ready to create 3 threads and polls etc

Tonturri

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sometimes when I feel over-confident i just slot it as spammable and go as melee magblade. It actually has ~10% more damage then eleweapon or swallow soul and has very short, easy-to-weave animation. Also it allows to maintain very high uptime of major ward/resolve.. so it's great skill anyway and it rises your utilization of Zaan too

I've enjoyed using frontbar concealed, CC, gap closer, cloak, bow and backbar Swallow + some combination of shields, shade, and Grasp. Nice DoT pressure, can do range or melee, nice armor when in melee, can switch out CC for something else if I want to cloak -> concealed, and I don't have to worry about flappy wings. It's pretty great.

clocksstoppe

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

I like the speed boost from Concealed Weapon. Combined with Refreshing Path and Shadowy Disguise, I move 55% faster while invisible for a few seconds. This combined with a stun, allows me to escape virtually all threats in battlegrounds unscathed.

Too bad you also don't do any significant damage in BGs because you spend half your time running away and the other half using a subpar magicka melee spammable

Iskiab

Yea, not meaning to knock the people who enjoy it but as a pvp healer that playstyle drives me nuts.

It’s one of the reasons I like playing with stam teammates more than magicka. Vigor is such a well designed ability, stam hit it once and keep doing damage, momentum too if they like.

The people who wear light and spam shields do nothing else when attacked, that means the other team doesn’t have to worry about defense and goes full tilt. One aoe ability and they run for a tree to hide behind, meaning your team has zero chance of winning the engagement.

This is totally off topic but it’s a huge pet peeve of mine. Hitting your shield - may - be beneficial as a sorc because you can streak and turn so you keep fighting, but most sorcs are really bad and do nothing but shield. I always ask myself if it’s even worth healing them, since their armour means they’re taking a ton of damage and are doing nothing but spamming a shield that’s doing nothing, they’d die in seconds if I stopped healing them.

If you go melee magblade, and do nothing but spam shields you have to ask yourself what you’re really accomplishing. If you’re a dps who isn’t doing damage, the answer is not a lot.

Noctus

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, not meaning to knock the people who enjoy it but as a pvp healer that playstyle drives me nuts.

It’s one of the reasons I like playing with stam teammates more than magicka. Vigor is such a well designed ability, stam hit it once and keep doing damage, momentum too if they like.

The people who wear light and spam shields do nothing else when attacked, that means the other team doesn’t have to worry about defense and goes full tilt. One aoe ability and they run for a tree to hide behind, meaning your team has zero chance of winning the engagement.

This is totally off topic but it’s a huge pet peeve of mine. Hitting your shield - may - be beneficial as a sorc because you can streak and turn so you keep fighting, but most sorcs are really bad and do nothing but shield. I always ask myself if it’s even worth healing them, since their armour means they’re taking a ton of damage and are doing nothing but spamming a shield that’s doing nothing, they’d die in seconds if I stopped healing them.

If you go melee magblade, and do nothing but spam shields you have to ask yourself what you’re really accomplishing. If you’re a dps who isn’t doing damage, the answer is not a lot.

the irony is my easiest pray are magblades.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

The damage difference between magicka and stam morphs is huge - both are viable in PvE though.

On my magblade, the speed buff when sneaking or invis is really nice (using Shadow Dancer since I have not gone vamp yet). It's also an ok spammable if in melee range (8988 damage tooltip, with minor berserk buff from merciless resolve). Invisibility guarantees a crit hit, and your target is stunned. That 8988 base damage, with a crit hit from behind (or invis from the front), becomes a 15,745 damage hit on the target - then finish them off while they are still stunned - if they are solo. Note that there is no difference in damage done when you are in front or behind the target.

By contrast on my stamblade, the Surprise Attack becomes really nice for one-shotting PvE solo mobs. The 8615 tooltip (after casting merciless resolve) translates into 34.6k (with crit, less if it does not crit) from behind. However, if I attack invisibly from in front of the foe, I only get 13,480-14,990 damage.

Basically, if you attack any target from BEHIND and from stealth, you get a 2.3 times damage multiplier (and a stun on target, even if the skill does not provide one) - but ONLY if you are using a stamina-based ability or basic weapon attack. Magicka-based weapon attacks do NOT get this bonus damage (and stun) - which is the point that the OP was trying to make.

PS: using the Thief mundus for higher crit chance on both toons.

FrancisCrawford

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Vampire doesn't effect movement speed while using Shadowy Disguise, as it is invisibility not Sneak, and has no movement speed penalty.

This is a thread about Concealed Weapon. Somebody getting a speed buff from Concealed Weapon can safely be assumed to be sneaking. Indeed, the 55% buff mentioned above is almost certain 25% from sneaking with Concealed Weapon + 30% from Major Expedition + 0% from Vampire (or less likely set bonus) cancellation of the sneak speed penalty.

Correct?

FrancisCrawford

Anyhow -- I've been unhappy for years that my stamblade thief, by equipping Concealed Weapon, misses out on Surprise Attack.

But it will be moot later this month, as he's a Bosmer.