So Khajiit coming is last/second last with 4.3.3 tests while Dunmer is coming 2nd in everything

nsmurfer

Test (by @susmitds ) link - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3#latest

So Dunmer DOES beats Khajiit in everything. I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.

MagDK Difference - 658
MagNB Difference - 717
MagSorc Difference - 832
MagPlar Difference - 709
MagDen Difference - 843
StamDK Difference - 692
StamNB Difference - 836
StamSorc Difference - 973
StamPlar Difference - 808
StamDen Difference - 800

also now, we have another semi-Hybrid race, i.e. Imperial.

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial
Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit.

susmitds wrote: »

using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS

They have very close DPS to Khajiit, with higher total resources, higher sustain, ultimate cost reduction. Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_RichLambert

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

cuz Khajiit are sexier than black elves.

Lyserus

outside of PVP gankers?

Why exclude those?

The numbers seem to be as balanced as it can be now, sure khajiit can use a tiny buff to catch up, but khajiit gankers are a unique playstyle that no other races can do better, excluding it isn't fair

Edit:
And why compare khajiit to dunmer only? If you have to say the imperials underperform to khajiit in all occasions except one, while khajiit also can be on top lists in magicka builds.

nsmurfer

Lyserus wrote: »

outside of PVP gankers?

Why exclude those?

The numbers seem to be as balanced as it can be now, sure khajiit can use a tiny buff to catch up, but khajiit gankers are a unique playstyle that no other races can do better, excluding it isn't fair

@Lyserus

Except you missed this part of the testing as well.

susmitds wrote: »

A few days ago, I saw a post on Dunmer getting higher critical hit damage compared to Khajiit based on rumors. @LiquidPony did a great job at breaking it down.

However, LiquidPony used an edge case of scenario of testing it with builds with very high Weapon Damage 6-9K weapon damage as that point adding Weapon Damage is reduntant and critical hit chance of those builds tend to be quite low in the first place. This is not relevant for the entire picture so I used a more PvP standard setup to test it.

Using Shacklebreaker(Prismatic on big pieces/Stamina on small pieces)+Spriggan+Velidreth/Kraagh as base, I used Snipe as the skill to test damage by. I raised CHD by 0.01 using CP after every test to find the point where Khajiit and Dunmer deals equal critical damage. I used Lover Mundus to stop Mundus from affecting the test intially. The point came at 1.97 non-racial CHD for my particular build.

Khajiit (2.07 CHD) - 41684 Snipe Crit
Dunmer (1.97 CHD) - 41677 Snipe Crit

At this point, I replaced Lover with Shadow.

Shadow Khajiit (2.20 CHD) - 42193 Snipe Crit
Shadow Dunmer (2.10 CHD) - 42311 Snipe Crit

As we see, critical damage beyond the sweet point is coming out higher for Dunmer. Now to be fair, having this high critical damage is another edge case.

But one thing is true that Dunmer+Shadow (254 Weapon Damage+0.13 CHD) will always deal more damage(crit and non crit) compared Khajiit+Warrior(232 Weapon Damage+0.10 CHD).

Lyserus

nsmurfer wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

outside of PVP gankers?

Why exclude those?

The numbers seem to be as balanced as it can be now, sure khajiit can use a tiny buff to catch up, but khajiit gankers are a unique playstyle that no other races can do better, excluding it isn't fair

@Lyserus

Except you missed this part of the testing as well.

susmitds wrote: »

A few days ago, I saw a post on Dunmer getting higher critical hit damage compared to Khajiit based on rumors. @LiquidPony did a great job at breaking it down.

However, LiquidPony used an edge case of scenario of testing it with builds with very high Weapon Damage 6-9K weapon damage as that point adding Weapon Damage is reduntant and critical hit chance of those builds tend to be quite low in the first place. This is not relevant for the entire picture so I used a more PvP standard setup to test it.

Using Shacklebreaker(Prismatic on big pieces/Stamina on small pieces)+Spriggan+Velidreth/Kraagh as base, I used Snipe as the skill to test damage by. I raised CHD by 0.01 using CP after every test to find the point where Khajiit and Dunmer deals equal critical damage. I used Lover Mundus to stop Mundus from affecting the test intially. The point came at 1.97 non-racial CHD for my particular build.

Khajiit (2.07 CHD) - 41684 Snipe Crit
Dunmer (1.97 CHD) - 41677 Snipe Crit

At this point, I replaced Lover with Shadow.

Shadow Khajiit (2.20 CHD) - 42193 Snipe Crit
Shadow Dunmer (2.10 CHD) - 42311 Snipe Crit

As we see, critical damage beyond the sweet point is coming out higher for Dunmer. Now to be fair, having this high critical damage is another edge case.

But one thing is true that Dunmer+Shadow (254 Weapon Damage+0.13 CHD) will always deal more damage(crit and non crit) compared Khajiit+Warrior(232 Weapon Damage+0.10 CHD).

khajiit also have passive to reduce the detection radius, making them still a better ganker than dunmer even with a 100 lower damage on snipe

TheDirtyPope

I never comment on these but you are freaking out about nothing. Sure, it is better in everything but by so little you won't even notice nor is it relevant outside of maybe fighting for leader boards. MAYBE. Knowing mechanics is still arguably more important. For every minute you fight, it will take you less than a second to match the Dunmer DPS. Stop complaining so much and go enjoy the game.

Jolipinator

So you posted in that topic and then made your own topic to discuss that topic?

nsmurfer

Lyserus wrote: »

khajiit also have passive to reduce the detection radius, making them still a better ganker than dunmer even with a 100 lower damage on snipe

Any ganker will tell you detection radius decrease is useless if you rely on Cloaking. Also if the damage does not crit, Khajiit bonus is useless. I am comparing with Dunmer as it is the only other hybrid.

Also Imperial is the new BiS tank and has far better sustain. @susmitds also said they will beat Khajiit if they use Lava Foot which is something only Imperials seem to enjoy the most out of, as they already have very high health to begin with.

nsmurfer

TheDirtyPope wrote: »

I never comment on these but you are freaking out about nothing. Sure, it is better in everything but by so little you won't even notice nor is it relevant outside of maybe fighting for leader boards. MAYBE. Knowing mechanics is still arguably more important. For every minute you fight, it will take you less than a second to match the Dunmer DPS. Stop complaining so much and go enjoy the game.

So why was the Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, etc complaining when they did only like 100 less DPS, getting us nerfed? If some other race does everything better, why play Khajiit in the first place?

zaria

Lyserus wrote: »

outside of PVP gankers?

Why exclude those?

The numbers seem to be as balanced as it can be now, sure khajiit can use a tiny buff to catch up, but khajiit gankers are a unique playstyle that no other races can do better, excluding it isn't fair

Edit:
And why compare khajiit to dunmer only? If you have to say the imperials underperform to khajiit in all occasions except one, while khajiit also can be on top lists in magicka builds.

Dunmer is good to compare against as they have simple passives just resouces and spell / weapon damage.
Dunmer is also not over performing in any roles but is stable good within the 1% from bis overall.

And to solve the ganker issue simply buff resources or sustain or give some crit chance.

susmitds

Yes, Khajiit could some readjustment (one of which is fairly obvious and I mentioned). A middleground between CHC and CHD should be all Khajiit needs.

And there are better ways to ask for it. Spamming threads is rude af. You call others whiners but you do the same. I am getting tired of people spamming my name in every whine thread. Please don't tag me to prove your point. I can make my own thread if and when it will need one.

Asys

easy now friend everything is gonna be awesome

I´m gonna go call whe Waaaaahmbulance for you

Seraphayel

I think Khajiit are still fine and improved a lot now -> then.

What ZOS could do is either

a) increase resources to 1000 Stamina / Magicka
b) increase regens to 100
c) increase the additional crit damage to 13-15%

I think any of those options would bring Khajiit back in line and everyone can be happy.

D0PAMINE

Im excited for Imperials.

joaaocaampos

1k of DPS is a small difference.

nine9six

nsmurfer wrote: »

TheDirtyPope wrote: »

I never comment on these but you are freaking out about nothing. Sure, it is better in everything but by so little you won't even notice nor is it relevant outside of maybe fighting for leader boards. MAYBE. Knowing mechanics is still arguably more important. For every minute you fight, it will take you less than a second to match the Dunmer DPS. Stop complaining so much and go enjoy the game.

So why was the Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, etc complaining when they did only like 100 less DPS, getting us nerfed? If some other race does everything better, why play Khajiit in the first place?

Because they like the Khajiit race? IDC where Dunmer land on a list. I'm still only going to play as a Dunmer.

nsmurfer

nine9six wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

TheDirtyPope wrote: »

I never comment on these but you are freaking out about nothing. Sure, it is better in everything but by so little you won't even notice nor is it relevant outside of maybe fighting for leader boards. MAYBE. Knowing mechanics is still arguably more important. For every minute you fight, it will take you less than a second to match the Dunmer DPS. Stop complaining so much and go enjoy the game.

So why was the Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, etc complaining when they did only like 100 less DPS, getting us nerfed? If some other race does everything better, why play Khajiit in the first place?

Because they like the Khajiit race? IDC where Dunmer land on a list. I'm still only going to play as a Dunmer.

joaaocaampos wrote: »

1k of DPS is a small difference.

You know what else is 1k DPS? The difference between Stamblade and other classes. Between stamblade and stamden it is just 300 DPS. Yet, people pretend stamblade is godmode and needs nerfs.

Why the hypocrisy?

I will be clear here, not asking for nerfs. I just want Khajiit to compete at the highest level. Which it won't do if some race is better at everything. Khajiit was 2nd in stamDPS. Now they are second last, how is it fair?

Edziu

joaaocaampos wrote: »

1k of DPS is a small difference.

and because of 500-1k dps difference khajiit got nerf to current state

small difference but it needed to be nerfed even to much

LiquidPony

nsmurfer wrote: »

Test (by @susmitds ) link - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3#latest

So Dunmer DOES beats Khajiit in everything. I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.

MagDK Difference - 658
MagNB Difference - 717
MagSorc Difference - 832
MagPlar Difference - 709
MagDen Difference - 843
StamDK Difference - 692
StamNB Difference - 836
StamSorc Difference - 973
StamPlar Difference - 808
StamDen Difference - 800

also now, we have another semi-Hybrid race, i.e. Imperial.

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial
Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit.

susmitds wrote: »

using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS

They have very close DPS to Khajiit, with higher total resources, higher sustain, ultimate cost reduction. Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_RichLambert

So I've been testing with solo parses on a stamsorc since yesterday, and I plan on putting together a full post with details later, but thought it was worth chiming in.

I'm using Rele/Advancing/Veli. Nirn + Poison/Infused + Absorb Stamina daggers, Infused Berserker vMA bow, 1 x Infused 2 x Bloodthirsty Jewelry. All Divines with stam enchants. Lover Mundus. 7 Medium. Lavafoot food. Vampire stage 2.

Completely static rotation with the following exceptions:

Imperial does 1 HA per DW pass until 50%
Khajiit does 1 HA per DW pass until 25%
Dunmer and Orc do 1 HA per DW pass all the way through
Redguard and Bosmer do all LAs the whole time

Other than that, the rotation always remains the same, which is:

1. Greater Storm Atro
2. Hail, LA Caltrops, LA Poison Inject, swap
3. LA Hurricane, LA Trap, LA Rending Slashes x 6, LA swap
4. Go to #2

Greater Storm atro dropped after Poison Injection when it's up. No changes in execute, just rinse and repeat until dead. I use this setup and this rotation because I get very consistent results with it.

The number of HAs to use was based on doing a number of test parses with each race to determine sustain viability, e.g. on an Imperial if I swap to full LAs under 50% I'm on the verge of running out of stam when the parse ends.

Preliminary averages are:

Imperial: 41558 DPS
Khajiit: 43667 DPS
Dunmer: 43654 DPS
Orc: 43706 DPS
Redguard: 42607 DPS
Bosmer: 42701 DPS

A couple of notes:

1. On Khajiit, I get slightly better DPS (about +300 on average) by moving 2% worth of CP out of Precise Strikes (currently at 66) and spreading them elsewhere. I need to do more testing on other races to see if the same CP allocation is beneficial across the board or if it specifically benefits Khajiit. Preliminary results indicate that for an Orc or Redguard, the CP change makes no difference (actually a marginal decrease), but for a Khajiit there is a clear bump in the average.
2. On Redguard and Bosmer, I get slightly better DPS by swapping DW glyphs and can still sustain fine.

Hopefully I can get the testing done tonight, double-check everything, and post results. I'll do stamden after that (I'm focusing on classes with easily repeatable rotations since there's less human error involved).

*Edit: Had a typo in the Imperial result

Also, worth noting that I'm not saying the other results are wrong and that mine are right. Rather just that one set of tests is hardly enough to have a definitive answer.

ArchMikem

nsmurfer wrote: »

Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

Because I like Khajiit.

Azyle1

LiquidPony wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Test (by @susmitds ) link - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3#latest

So Dunmer DOES beats Khajiit in everything. I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.

MagDK Difference - 658
MagNB Difference - 717
MagSorc Difference - 832
MagPlar Difference - 709
MagDen Difference - 843
StamDK Difference - 692
StamNB Difference - 836
StamSorc Difference - 973
StamPlar Difference - 808
StamDen Difference - 800

also now, we have another semi-Hybrid race, i.e. Imperial.

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial
Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit.

susmitds wrote: »

using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS

They have very close DPS to Khajiit, with higher total resources, higher sustain, ultimate cost reduction. Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_RichLambert

So I've been testing with solo parses on a stamsorc since yesterday, and I plan on putting together a full post with details later, but thought it was worth chiming in.

I'm using Rele/Advancing/Veli. Nirn + Poison/Infused + Absorb Stamina daggers, Infused Berserker vMA bow, 1 x Infused 2 x Bloodthirsty Jewelry. All Divines with stam enchants. Lover Mundus. 7 Medium. Lavafoot food. Vampire stage 2.

Completely static rotation with the following exceptions:

Imperial does 1 HA per DW pass until 50%
Khajiit does 1 HA per DW pass until 25%
Dunmer and Orc do 1 HA per DW pass all the way through
Redguard and Bosmer do all LAs the whole time

Other than that, the rotation always remains the same, which is:

1. Greater Storm Atro
2. Hail, LA Caltrops, LA Poison Inject, swap
3. LA Hurricane, LA Trap, LA Rending Slashes x 6, LA swap
4. Go to #2

Greater Storm atro dropped after Poison Injection when it's up. No changes in execute, just rinse and repeat until dead. I use this setup and this rotation because I get very consistent results with it.

The number of HAs to use was based on doing a number of test parses with each race to determine sustain viability, e.g. on an Imperial if I swap to full LAs under 50% I'm on the verge of running out of stam when the parse ends.

Preliminary averages are:

Imperial: 41958 DPS
Khajiit: 43667 DPS
Dunmer: 43654 DPS
Orc: 43706 DPS
Redguard: 42607 DPS
Bosmer: 42701 DPS

A couple of notes:

1. On Khajiit, I get slightly better DPS (about +300 on average) by moving 2% worth of CP out of Precise Strikes (currently at 66) and spreading them elsewhere. I need to do more testing on other races to see if the same CP allocation is beneficial across the board or if it specifically benefits Khajiit. Preliminary results indicate that for an Orc or Redguard, the CP change makes no difference (actually a marginal decrease), but for a Khajiit there is a clear bump in the average.
2. On Redguard and Bosmer, I get slightly better DPS by swapping DW glyphs and can still sustain fine.

Hopefully I can get the testing done tonight, double-check everything, and post results. I'll do stamden after that (I'm focusing on classes with easily repeatable rotations since there's less human error involved).

Can always count on you for good news.

zaria

Seraphayel wrote: »

I think Khajiit are still fine and improved a lot now -> then.

What ZOS could do is either

a) increase resources to 1000 Stamina / Magicka
b) increase regens to 100
c) increase the additional crit damage to 13-15%

I think any of those options would bring Khajiit back in line and everyone can be happy.

I take the regen, easier to use and don't benefit gankers who is the problem with crit damage.
But agree an Khajiit buff and useful pasives for Altmer and most of all Bosmers and we are pretty good.

mxxo

I have nothing against a Khajiit Buff as long as it is not in Magicka. Khajiit is already strong enough in Mag DPS for a non primary Magicka Race.

DKMaestro

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Bring out her dead!!!

Seriously - who cares about such minuscule deviations? I really hope that ZOS don’t read these posts.

Acrolas

I'm still waiting until Update 21 to play the Number Muncher minigame.
Soon, Troggles. Soon (TM).

srfrogg23

All of these parses look like they're at 60k+. The differences between each race/class combo is less than 1k.

1k divided by 60k equals .01666667 or 1.67% rounded.

The difference between khajit and everyone else is less than 1.67%.

I'm not sure that's a large enough difference to declare that "no one will ever play khajit, ever again".

zaria

srfrogg23 wrote: »

All of these parses look like they're at 60k+. The differences between each race/class combo is less than 1k.

1k divided by 60k equals .01666667 or 1.67% rounded.

The difference between khajit and everyone else is less than 1.67%.

I'm not sure that's a large enough difference to declare that "no one will ever play khajit, ever again".

For some reasons Altmer has been spamming forum complaining of an far weaker nerf.
Yes they should get an more useful passive.

Dunmer is in an nice spot, buff Khajiit up to around that level

Bosmer looks like need an buff to and yes more useful pasives

victory.immortalb16_ESO

Let's face it, for most of us these differences are so small they don't exist.

If you aren't perfect on your rotation you lose more than this.

In any group, the correct application and timely application of buffs will make much bigger differences than banging your head against a dummy.

Khajiit and proud:-)

asuitandtyb14_ESO

All is as Vivec wills it.

vrine

As a Khajiit tank I'm pretty stoked with their changes tbh. That's obviously from a non-dps point of view though.

Osteos

Good grief! Can you guys make up your mind. Khajiit is bis, Khajiit is garbo, Altmer is dead, the age of Bretons has begun, Dark Elves are stam now rip, Dark Elves and Khajiit are tied, Altmer are bis and Bretons stink. Did I miss anything?