Cp pvp...a thought what I'm struggling to understand

Seenoevil

Why are people so attached to cp pvp? What I dont understand is your building cp into your build...but then its automatically countered by your opponents.

43 points into siphoner negates your mag and stam and health recovery completly. Master at arms and thaumaterge are negated by thick skinned and.......damn I can't remember the direct damage reduction, the 10% elemental/physical bonus you aim for is directly negated...

Healing done and recieved has befoul to counter it... befoul a lot more generous on the diminishing returns(almost every build will have a defile built into it somewhere)

What I'm trying to say is once all is said and done all your left with is block cost/roll dodge/ sneak speed that sort of stuff and the allocation buffs at 10/ 30/75 most of these are kinda pointless barring 1 or 2 (unchained/the off balance one.. I forget what its called)

All the offense that is built into the cp tree is automatically negated by its counter part... pretty standard pvp cp allocation I'm talking about here... nothing with a massive niche to it. maybe you come away with an extra 1 % here and 2% there... essentially the entire cp system is just more math and processing servers need to go through so you can maybe regain an extra 50 stam/mag every 2 seconds or your whip will do 5k instead of 4.9. Jabs will hit for 1100k per rather then 1050.

Would it not just be simpler( and a hell of a lot less taxing on the servers) to rework battle spirit??

New version.
5k stam mag and health when in cyrodil
50% healing reduction
10% recovery bonus to everything
10% resistance bonus to everything
10% crit chance and damage boost
20% reduction on block/dodge/ sneak cost.(just round figures for argument sake)

Gives both mag and stam nice buffs and sustain, builds would have to focus on their intent, healthy pools of everything, and nice reduction on utility/defensive skills. Also keeps a separation between non cp and this version

Puts everyone on a level playing field low and high cp , your performance would be more relative to your gear choices/ traits and enchants??

What am I missing here with the cp allocation??.... to me it seems like 1 massive roundabout ying yang system to squeeze 1% here and 2 % there

CompM4s

It adds diversity to builds. Not just dps, but account for healer and tank builds.

KBKB

Because my time went into CP points...

We all have a limit on time making it the most valuable commodity

Sure as I was leveling past V16/50 I was fine tuning stats and technique

I was also banking sets and making gold

But I was also progressing. why would I play in a server that I can't utilize the reward for the amount of time I've put in to my character account?

It also feels like the real end game I could play in a scenario where my character is maxed out at full power as are the opponents my rewards for this are cheaper dodge/block better healing/regen/draining/damage etc etc

The question should be if you're at CP cap why would you play elsewhere - Its not the question because our servers are crap.

Edit, I'm not saying I love the CP system but I would have stopped playing when I was not progressing in some way shape or forma long time ago MMOs are made off that psych.

idk

CP PvP is very different than non-CP. While builds are different those in CP are there because they can be and have the CP. It is not that they are tied to it.

Just looking at how populated the non-CP campaign seems to suggest the question should be why are they there. Granted I seen people make coy comments that CP is a crutch and such but that is really a cop out.

BTW, the main reason most probably chose the CP campaign over non-CP is because they want a populated campaign since that is good for PvP. I am not being funny but people have always gravitated to the one or two campaigns that were filling up. Yes, once upon a time we did fill more than one campaign.

Seenoevil

CompM4s wrote: »

It adds diversity to builds. Not just dps, but account for healer and tank builds.

That's what I'm getting at.... what im struggling to understand.... the diversity you get from the cp tree is directly negated by your opponent...

it's used as a way to fill gaps in your build......so say if I need more healing on a build so I put 10% into quick recovery, and 10% Into to blessed then run into someone that has 20% into defile(which most people will have) the cp I've allocated is automatically null and voided, goes from 0 to +10 to 0

Wouldn't it just be easier to get rid of the lot and just have armour passive and gear sets determine your heals?? same goes from a pvp tank aspect... you want more armour mitigation build for it, everything you put in your cp is being countered before you even step foot in cyrodil, let gear sets counter gear sets... cp seems like false numbers to me..... pve however that's a different animal

I dont mean to come of arrogant but it really is rattling around and bugging me lol

Seenoevil

idk wrote: »

CP PvP is very different than non-CP. While builds are different those in CP are there because they can be and have the CP. It is not that they are tied to it.

Just looking at how populated the non-CP campaign seems to suggest the question should be why are they there. Granted I seen people make coy comments that CP is a crutch and such but that is really a cop out.

So essentially cp pvp is more a fight of who has that extra 2% here 3% there and higher skill level??

And non cp is gear set vs gear set with a lower skill ceiling(because most sets in this game are a tad broke)

Seenoevil

KBKB wrote: »

Because my time went into CP points...

We all have a limit on time making it the most valuable commodity

Sure as I was leveling past V16/50 I was fine tuning stats and technique

I was also banking sets and making gold

But I was also progressing. why would I play in a server that I can't utilize the reward for the amount of time I've put in to my character account?

It also feels like the real end game I could play in a scenario where my character is maxed out at full power as are the opponents my rewards for this are cheaper dodge/block better healing/regen/draining/damage etc etc

The question should be if you're at CP cap why would you play elsewhere - Its not the question because our servers are crap.

Edit, I'm not saying I love the CP system but I would have stopped playing when I was not progressing in some way shape or forma long time ago MMOs are made off that psych.

What if the cp was replaced with an additional caps on items?? For the Every x amount of exp you aquire you get to ""upgrade"" an item of your choice to cp 200?? Keeps a vertical progression psych??

Vapirko

It’s really not quite as simple as just having it negated, because some builds will be more enhanced in one area of their build than their opponent is in the negation of that area. Also having overall more max stat, higher recovery etc also makes it way easier to do things like kiting an evading damage. A few dodge rolls in no CP and you’re pretty much gased. That said I’ve definitely been leaning towards no CP lately. But I tend to go through phases. The different pace of combat can be refreshing.

KBKB

Seenoevil wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Because my time went into CP points...

We all have a limit on time making it the most valuable commodity

Sure as I was leveling past V16/50 I was fine tuning stats and technique

I was also banking sets and making gold

But I was also progressing. why would I play in a server that I can't utilize the reward for the amount of time I've put in to my character account?

It also feels like the real end game I could play in a scenario where my character is maxed out at full power as are the opponents my rewards for this are cheaper dodge/block better healing/regen/draining/damage etc etc

The question should be if you're at CP cap why would you play elsewhere - Its not the question because our servers are crap.

Edit, I'm not saying I love the CP system but I would have stopped playing when I was not progressing in some way shape or forma long time ago MMOs are made off that psych.

What if the cp was replaced with an additional caps on items?? For the Every x amount of exp you aquire you get to ""upgrade"" an item of your choice to cp 200?? Keeps a vertical progression psych??

@ I'd imagine the power creep from gear would be worse than that of CP% when if youre capped you are usually at diminishing returns. I never want the gear above CP 160.

Seenoevil

So if zos decided to carry on with the cp increase after this haiatus... and everyone gets to the point of diminishing returns on all things pvp related.....

Everyone(pvp respectively) will be running the exact same cp allocation, niche builds really would be at the point of an extra 1% damage/healing and the cp system will have outgrown its purpose. All the cp you've grinded for/acquired will be virtually pointless?

At least with a new system of flat increases built into the mainframe and a gear progression...

***dungeon and grinding gear stays at 160 but you can Upgrade to 200 with enough exp....there is still progression***(this is just a thought not a proposal)

What I can't understand is it seems like we are at that point already.... pvp cp clones with a little extra 2 or 3% in different things, (the stuff that has hard cp counters to)

KBKB

Seenoevil wrote: »

So if zos decided to carry on with the cp increase after this haiatus... and everyone gets to the point of diminishing returns on all things pvp related.....

Everyone(pvp respectively) will be running the exact same cp allocation, niche builds really would be at the point of an extra 1% damage/healing and the cp system will have outgrown its purpose. All the cp you've grinded for/acquired will be virtually pointless?

At least with a new system of flat increases built into the mainframe and a gear progression...

***dungeon and grinding gear stays at 160 but you can Upgrade to 200 with enough exp....there is still progression***(this is just a thought not a proposal)

What I can't understand is it seems like we are at that point already.... pvp cp clones with a little extra 2 or 3% in different things, (the stuff that has hard cp counters to)

I have 8 max toons they have 16 sets my bank would be triple that easily. Within 2 months the power gap between players who have the time/resources to max it all out vs those that don't would me mortifying and they can't have a C200 gear server due to mixing matching /people catching up piece by piece.

As I said I don't love CP at all and after 3 or so more cap increases the trees will need some more balancing no doubt

are you countering my cheap sneak? cheap block? cheap dodge? 10/30/75/120 point passives? perhaps I went into heavy defile as im running a build that keeps it up 24/7 perhaps I went with a 2H sword build because I went heavier on penetration in mage trees? Perhaps I stacked everything into DoT and very little in direct damage? or maybe I went for well fitted passives and stacked impen through champ trees? Not everyone plays the meta and copies the latest build off youtube/here some of us want to try and balance ourselves CP lets you feel like you're doing it at least even if at cap we are all countering each other (not to mention class mag/stam and gear counters).

idk

Seenoevil wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CP PvP is very different than non-CP. While builds are different those in CP are there because they can be and have the CP. It is not that they are tied to it.

Just looking at how populated the non-CP campaign seems to suggest the question should be why are they there. Granted I seen people make coy comments that CP is a crutch and such but that is really a cop out.

So essentially cp pvp is more a fight of who has that extra 2% here 3% there and higher skill level??

And non cp is gear set vs gear set with a lower skill ceiling(because most sets in this game are a tad broke)

It really seems you are just trying to read into responses what you want. Some of your responses seem to indicate an agenda vs an actual inquiry. Considering most in PvP are maxed on CP anyhow, unless they are new, your response is rather inaccurate about it coming down to who has an extra 2-3%.

BTW, Zos is not going to just do away with CP and they are not going to continue with the status quo as it has been. So hate to break

Nerftheforums

Because pvp balance in no cp environments is disgusting

Datthaw

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Because pvp balance in no cp environments is disgusting

Honestly i think its better than cp. I just started in sotha some. I see much less cheese there. Yeah sure proc sets, but to see that in cp also. The fights are cleaner, faster, not these heavy armor tank and spank builds everyone uses in cp, you can't sustain it.

I still play viv mainly but honestly the more I play sotha the more I like no cp

VaranisArano

Becase CP PVP is what I started out doing. And since I prefer large organized group play, the "your opponent negates your build" doesn't really apply. I play a healer, so the Negate I'm more worried about is the Sorc ultimate. Even on my damage dealer, I'm less concerned with how my opponenet's build counters my CPs and more with how he's going to counter my cliffracers and how I'm going to counter his dawnbreaker.

Also, I've tried No CP and didn't really care for it. During the No CP test week in Cyrodiil, it was okay? I guess? We mostly handled sustain okay and our opponents were a lot squishier. The IC minibosses on the other hand, that sucked. I enjoy No CP in Battlegrounds for the faster pace of combat and that's about it.

I guess if you were 1v1, you might reasonably be concerned that the advantage from CP is negated by your opponents also having CP, but even then, Cyrodiil has a diversity of builds that countering enemy attacks and player experience is going to have a much bigger impact on combat than whether or not your CP is canceled out.

We see this with Cyrodiil 1vXing. We'd expect the solo player to be thoroughly overwhelmed by the CP advantage of their collective foes, right? Against experienced players, they certainly are, as light attacks sap their resources and then the blocks, bashes, and interrupts take hold and the 1vXer inevitably goes down. Against inexperienced players who have the CP but not the tactics, the 1vXer can LOS and pick targets out of the group to win the fight.

In short, even in CP Cyrodiil, player skill and experience matters a lot. Our CP doesn't do the fighting for us - not if we want to win. I imagine most no CP players think the same about proc sets in No CP.

Ranger209

Seenoevil wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

It adds diversity to builds. Not just dps, but account for healer and tank builds.

That's what I'm getting at.... what im struggling to understand.... the diversity you get from the cp tree is directly negated by your opponent...

it's used as a way to fill gaps in your build......so say if I need more healing on a build so I put 10% into quick recovery, and 10% Into to blessed then run into someone that has 20% into defile(which most people will have) the cp I've allocated is automatically null and voided, goes from 0 to +10 to 0

Wouldn't it just be easier to get rid of the lot and just have armour passive and gear sets determine your heals?? same goes from a pvp tank aspect... you want more armour mitigation build for it, everything you put in your cp is being countered before you even step foot in cyrodil, let gear sets counter gear sets... cp seems like false numbers to me..... pve however that's a different animal

I dont mean to come of arrogant but it really is rattling around and bugging me lol

But then you run into someone who has nothing into defile, hence the diversity. In no CP everyone is the same, there are no CP modifiers. In CP you can build different ways that accent your individual playstyle. While there are direct counters to some CP trees people don't all spec them the same, again hence the diversity.

Seenoevil

So do cps stack??

2 people run 20% into befoul 1 runs minor defile the other major...
Putting the major defile of player A at a 40% and player B's minor defile at 30% would this debunk an enemy's healing received by 70%?? Or would 10% put into blessed and 10% into healing received negate the 20% additional the 2 attackers have increased via cp? So you only get hit with the 30% and 15% base defile??

Both attackers put 10% into siphoner
would this debuff an enemy 20% on recovery?? Or would it be treat as 10% of each attacker which your regen cp will soak up?

If they dont stack it doesn't matter how many people are on you,, majority of defensive cp will counter all the offensive??

At an extreme 20 people running 15 % into thaumaturge..... would all 20 of them have that additional 15% negated by my 15% I put into thick skinned???

I dont mean to sound like I have an agenda.i dont.i enjoy vivec and equally enjoy bgs....what I dont understand is people are saying it's all for build diversity.....but this diversity seems false...

granted if you go full d.o.t damage hit 23% extra and run into a low cp with nothing into thick skinned... your going to steam roll.... but most experience pvp players will have at least 10% into thick skinned or by gear/skill choice run cleanses , your 23% really quickly went down to 13% extra against skilled players with half decent cp.and at this point it's more about who's whos the better player....( this is just a niche build building heavy into 1 form of damage)
Basically clever cp is just an extra tool to steam roll lower... more inexperience players??

moosegod

I like CP because it allows more flexibility in play. I can put on any couple of gear sets that at least pair well and I can be competitive thanks to skill. In no-cp my gear choices matter more and my skill matters less (not much less but still). I also can tank a DB+SA and tornado combo without dumping all of my heals, which is very frequent in the no cp environment especially in BG.

Also like others have said, PvP is part endgame so that's why CP is popular. It's for experienced players who have finished leveling their character and want to test against similar players.

BNOC

Seenoevil wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CP PvP is very different than non-CP. While builds are different those in CP are there because they can be and have the CP. It is not that they are tied to it.

Just looking at how populated the non-CP campaign seems to suggest the question should be why are they there. Granted I seen people make coy comments that CP is a crutch and such but that is really a cop out.

So essentially cp pvp is more a fight of who has that extra 2% here 3% there and higher skill level??

And non cp is gear set vs gear set with a lower skill ceiling(because most sets in this game are a tad broke)

I see it the other way around and I play and enjoy both:

My opinion of the difference is that, No-CP pvp is who has that 2%, 3% left - Who's built for sustained combat and who's built for high burst. You hit harder, you get hit harder, you can't just stand and sustain forever and you can't just block forever. You have to make real decisions.

CP have options for builds without limitations, without much thought into any specific pools etc; You can just focus on getting the most stats possible and then use CP to knock everything that's shy, up. Also >50% of the time you're against players for whom it's impossible to match your stats so you have a leg up from the get-go, that's nice for people, myself included as it all but guarantees victory.

Dedicated healing is overly strong in both.

I imagine what plays a large part in why the CP campaigns is more populated than no-CP is that, people gravitate towards familiarity and new players are lured into CP campaigns by the long serving populous.

Also, there's something defeating about a "good" CP player turning up in no-CP or battlegrounds and getting smacked because they don't have unlimited resource pools or the same power and defence down every avenue, so they just don't bother again.

OP, percentage based bonuses from BS are not ideal: Players with higher CP get better returns by default and can manipulate them further if they wished.

BNOC

Seenoevil wrote: »

So do cps stack??

2 people run 20% into befoul 1 runs minor defile the other major...
Putting the major defile of player A at a 40% and player B's minor defile at 30% would this debunk an enemy's healing received by 70%?? Or would 10% put into blessed and 10% into healing received negate the 20% additional the 2 attackers have increased via cp? So you only get hit with the 30% and 15% base defile??

Both attackers put 10% into siphoner
would this debuff an enemy 20% on recovery?? Or would it be treat as 10% of each attacker which your regen cp will soak up?

If they dont stack it doesn't matter how many people are on you,, majority of defensive cp will counter all the offensive??

At an extreme 20 people running 15 % into thaumaturge..... would all 20 of them have that additional 15% negated by my 15% I put into thick skinned???

I dont mean to sound like I have an agenda.i dont.i enjoy vivec and equally enjoy bgs....what I dont understand is people are saying it's all for build diversity.....but this diversity seems false...

granted if you go full d.o.t damage hit 23% extra and run into a low cp with nothing into thick skinned... your going to steam roll.... but most experience pvp players will have at least 10% into thick skinned or by gear/skill choice run cleanses , your 23% really quickly went down to 13% extra against skilled players with half decent cp.and at this point it's more about who's whos the better player....( this is just a niche build building heavy into 1 form of damage)
Basically clever cp is just an extra tool to steam roll lower... more inexperience players??

As far as I know, major and minor buffs/debuffs can be applied at the same time.

For things like Thaum, let's say you hit 1000 on me before thaum and are now hitting 1150 at 100 Thaum where I have 0 points in Ele Defender.
If you're hitting 1150 and I put 100 points into Ele Defender, I'd expect to be hit 977.5 per hit - Though that's not exactly how it works, it's a very easy one to test.

All these things do follow similar calculation patterns as other things, someone will have more info regarding calcs - Do a forum search for CP mitigation or something for the actual math behind it all.

Seenoevil

Yeah they hit can apply at the same time...
Say player x is running duroks for major defile 20% into befoul

Player y is running fassallas guile for minor defile 20% into befoul

Player z is now affected by both major and minor defile.... but is runnin 10% healing done and 10% healing recieved 20%extra healing...

Would the 20% healing cp allocation automatically cancel both the attackers 20% cp points placed into befoul and just recieve flat major and minor defile??

Emma_Overload

Seenoevil wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

It adds diversity to builds. Not just dps, but account for healer and tank builds.

That's what I'm getting at.... what im struggling to understand.... the diversity you get from the cp tree is directly negated by your opponent...

it's used as a way to fill gaps in your build......so say if I need more healing on a build so I put 10% into quick recovery, and 10% Into to blessed then run into someone that has 20% into defile(which most people will have) the cp I've allocated is automatically null and voided, goes from 0 to +10 to 0

Wouldn't it just be easier to get rid of the lot and just have armour passive and gear sets determine your heals?? same goes from a pvp tank aspect... you want more armour mitigation build for it, everything you put in your cp is being countered before you even step foot in cyrodil, let gear sets counter gear sets... cp seems like false numbers to me..... pve however that's a different animal

I dont mean to come of arrogant but it really is rattling around and bugging me lol

Not if your opponent puts his points somewhere else. There is actually a real art to allocating CP for PvP.

jaws343

There seems to be a misguided thought that everyone sets their CP up the exact same way. And also that most builds have defile baked in. Both of which are far from true. And even if they were true, the skills being used and the set and class buffs being used need to be considered in the equation.

I have 15 characters and not a single one of them have the same defensive or offensive CP setups. Some are specced to handle a specific damage type more than others based on the playstyle of the character. Some are specced to do a specific type of damage based on the skills being used. You have a limited amount of CP and a need to spec it to the best of that characters survival and damage. Thinking that you can setup a CP allocation that handles everything but a few % here and there is amusing.

Metemsycosis

Dont forget the passives you unlock, like unchained. Also what you're saying op is only true between equal-cp opponents. And is only true if you and your opponent allocate cp similarly.

Waffennacht

What OP is asking, is why if things are relatively equal, would you be so opposed to playing no CP when it too is relatively equal?

Well OP, the answer is simple. In CP they are not relatively equal. There are players with fewer CP, there are also players without knowledge and have miss-allocated their stats.

The simple fact is for most forum-goers the CP does create an advantage and edge in combat over a large sum of their opponents and they do not wish to give up that advantage.

MalagenR

Seenoevil wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

It adds diversity to builds. Not just dps, but account for healer and tank builds.

That's what I'm getting at.... what im struggling to understand.... the diversity you get from the cp tree is directly negated by your opponent...

it's used as a way to fill gaps in your build......so say if I need more healing on a build so I put 10% into quick recovery, and 10% Into to blessed then run into someone that has 20% into defile(which most people will have) the cp I've allocated is automatically null and voided, goes from 0 to +10 to 0

Wouldn't it just be easier to get rid of the lot and just have armour passive and gear sets determine your heals?? same goes from a pvp tank aspect... you want more armour mitigation build for it, everything you put in your cp is being countered before you even step foot in cyrodil, let gear sets counter gear sets... cp seems like false numbers to me..... pve however that's a different animal

I dont mean to come of arrogant but it really is rattling around and bugging me lol

Not if your opponent doesn't know how to play or you use something other than a Meta build to play. It's more common thank you think.

ESO has a lot of room for theory crafters. The thing is, lots of people who create successful builds don't even come to the forums.

They just "PWN" people and go about their day.

Crispen_Longbow

Seenoevil wrote: »

Why are people so attached to cp pvp?

It's because of how the game has progressed over the years.

Kyne -> Under 50 Campaign. For low players to be introduced PVP. This is for beginners to learn how to pvp without going up against veteran experienced players.

Their is a major flaw with this campaign. The veterans that don't want to graduate "Cap out" to the next level and take on better competition just re-roll to fight beginners. ZOS needs to make it so that once your account has ever had a max level character you can't go into the under 50. This would allow the beginners a real chance to learn how to play.

Sotha -> NO CP.
This campaign is for those that have some experience and are ready for the next level. Thisis a way to level the playing field for a low CP character. They only have to play against other low level CP characters and not get murdered instantly if they went into the CP campaign.

Vivic - > CP. This is the main campaign. This is designed for veteran players that want to compete at end game content against the best players and guilds.

Shor -> CP (Overflow campaign)
This is the overflow campaign for veteran players to play in when the main one is pop-locked.

That was suppose to be the natural progression.

Now as new updates come out and the end game content changes it sends people to different campaigns.

• If a Guild is stacking 80 players all at once in one location on Vivec, this causes super lag which will disconnect any player that tries to render in the opposing group. After a while groups and players will want to escape this lag so they go to the 7 day "Overflow" campaign or head over to sotha. Really depends on population.
  
• If ZOS introduces overpowered siege for CP campaigns that will be murder for NO CP. So the No CP just turns into siege wars online which pushes people that want to PVP out of that campaign into the CP campaign etc.

• Other things like population imbalance, Poplocked DC to 1 bar EP etc sends players to other campaigns.

I personally don't care if its NOCP or CP. I just want to go to a campaign where you can find multiple fights throughout the map whenever I'm able to play.

Iskiab

I had the same questions. I think the answer is all the green tree passives that cannot be negated. Sustain is a lot better and sprinting, dodge rolling, break free are cheaper.

That plus you can take advantage of new players who’re probably low cp while they’re learning.

Gilvoth

i love CP pvp, it has great sustain for resources and great strengths that simply are not and dont have in non-cp pvp.
i prefer CP pvp

Seenoevil

So the takeaway I'm getting here is

*people have grinded cp they would like to use them*
*people prefer the resource management* (this one came up a lot)
*build diversity*
*people prefer to steamroller newer players with fewer cp*
*population in the server*

Seems to me the major reason you prefer cp campaign can be easily countered with a simple 43 points into siphoner.

Build diversity is in no cp campaigns... just a lot more prominent and potent.much less forgiving if you mistime a proc/burst/rebuff...much more rewarding when you avoid/soak up an incoming assault and return the favour.

The lateral progression of cp can easily be replaced with a different form of exp transferred to power.


People prefer to steam roller new people this is just...yeah....

Population I can understand,i do prefer a full campaign so I'm not playing horse simulator online for 10 minutes before each fight.

MalagenR

Seenoevil wrote: »

So the takeaway I'm getting here is

*people have grinded cp they would like to use them*
*people prefer the resource management* (this one came up a lot)
*build diversity*
*people prefer to steamroller newer players with fewer cp*
*population in the server*

Seems to me the major reason you prefer cp campaign can be easily countered with a simple 43 points into siphoner.

Build diversity is in no cp campaigns... just a lot more prominent and potent.much less forgiving if you mistime a proc/burst/rebuff...much more rewarding when you avoid/soak up an incoming assault and return the favour.

The lateral progression of cp can easily be replaced with a different form of exp transferred to power.


People prefer to steam roller new people this is just...yeah....

Population I can understand,i do prefer a full campaign so I'm not playing horse simulator online for 10 minutes before each fight.

I don't agree that No-CP offers more build diversity.