PvP is unbalanced, and it CANNOT be fixed.

KhajiitFelix

It's time to learn this. You cried for 4 years, and what are the results? Cancerous PvP. But is this new? NOPE. In the entire gaming history, there almost wasn't any game that has balanced PvP. One of the problems why PvP is so unbalanced is greed. Yes, greed. I'm sure ZOS knows if they are going nerf nightblades to be on par with other classes, they are going to risk to lose 1/3 of the players, and that will hurt ZOS money. But if everyone will quit PvP and go PvE, one of my nightmares might come true. Every toxic PvP player will flood PvE community with even more elitism, salt for doing [edit] DPS and with players whining to nerfs trials. Please ZOS, stop listening to these PvP saltlords and trying to make the entire game for them when they don't even deserve it.

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

Please ZOS, don't listen to PvPers. It will only ruin your game.

Checkmath

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's time to learn this. You cried for 4 years, and what are the results? Cancerous PvP. But is this new? NOPE. In the entire gaming history, there almost wasn't any game that has balanced PvP. One of the problems why PvP is so unbalanced is greed. Yes, greed. I'm sure ZOS knows if they are going nerf nightblades to be on par with other classes, they are going to risk to lose 1/3 of the players, and that will hurt ZOS money. But if everyone will quit PvP and go PvE, one of my nightmares might come true. Every toxic PvP player will flood PvE community with even more elitism, salt for doing *** DPS and with players whining to nerfs trials. Please ZOS, stop listening to these PvP saltlords and trying to make the entire game for them when they don't even deserve it.

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

Please ZOS, don't listen to PvPers. It will only ruin your game.

I do not think, that what you described is very accurate.

Yes PvP is never really balanced, but in my opinion we are in a really good state right now. Nightblades are currently the top class for dps in PvE and also stamina nightblades in PvP are a bit too strong in many opinions. Tweaking it somehow to not touch magicka nightblades too much (magicka nightblades are not top dog in PvP anymore, still in PvE they are) would help the game for sure.

Nightblades are on the radar of the devs because they are so strong currently. So I would not say, that ZOS does not dare to touch them for the reason of greed. Also the number of 1/3 of players is just made up and is nowhere accurate. Additionally, PvP players, who get upset about the state of PvP or about their class being nerfed, would rather leave ESO than going for the PvE content. Only the people, which actually play PvE regularly might leave PvP in such a case, but those are not the toxic ones.

SaintSubwayy

Checkmath wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's time to learn this. You cried for 4 years, and what are the results? Cancerous PvP. But is this new? NOPE. In the entire gaming history, there almost wasn't any game that has balanced PvP. One of the problems why PvP is so unbalanced is greed. Yes, greed. I'm sure ZOS knows if they are going nerf nightblades to be on par with other classes, they are going to risk to lose 1/3 of the players, and that will hurt ZOS money. But if everyone will quit PvP and go PvE, one of my nightmares might come true. Every toxic PvP player will flood PvE community with even more elitism, salt for doing *** DPS and with players whining to nerfs trials. Please ZOS, stop listening to these PvP saltlords and trying to make the entire game for them when they don't even deserve it.

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

Please ZOS, don't listen to PvPers. It will only ruin your game.

I do not think, that what you described is very accurate.

Yes PvP is never really balanced, but in my opinion we are in a really good state right now. Nightblades are currently the top class for dps in PvE and also stamina nightblades in PvP are a bit too strong in many opinions. Tweaking it somehow to not touch magicka nightblades too much (magicka nightblades are not top dog in PvP anymore, still in PvE they are) would help the game for sure.

Nightblades are on the radar of the devs because they are so strong currently. So I would not say, that ZOS does not dare to touch them for the reason of greed. Also the number of 1/3 of players is just made up and is nowhere accurate. Additionally, PvP players, who get upset about the state of PvP or about their class being nerfed, would rather leave ESO than going for the PvE content. Only the people, which actually play PvE regularly might leave PvP in such a case, but those are not the toxic ones.

I think personally that the NB kit is way overloaded with its passives, but a very big reason templars and NB are so strong in PVE atm is their 10% Crit dmg done passive, which is way stronger than any other passive from other classes in PVE.

either other clases would need a similar passive, which adds the same power lvl, or NB and Templars ned to loos theirs, but again nerfs arent the way to go, if they are the only option then we'll have to deal with that.

profundidob16_ESO

When are people going to realize that balance can happen on several levels and in ESO pvp it happens at a global level, just like it does in the game of paper-rock-scissors.

That means that by itself rock vs scissors or rock vs paper is not balanced and never will be. This is the result of well intended game design as in "by choice", not a mistake and not something that is supposed to be fixed. So stop asking for it

In an infinite number of hand throws however both paper,rock and scissors will each win about 33% of the hand throws on average. There's your balance.

KhajiitFelix

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

When are people going to realize that balance can happen on several levels and in ESO pvp it happens at a global level, just like it does in the game of paper-rock-scissors.

That means that by itself rock vs scissors or rock vs paper is not balanced and never will be. This is the result of well intended game design as in "by choice", not a mistake and not something that is supposed to be fixed. So stop asking for it

In an infinite number of hand throws however both paper,rock and scissors will each win about 33% of the hand throws on average. There's your balance.

PvP balance at the cost of PvE balance.

profundidob16_ESO

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

When are people going to realize that balance can happen on several levels and in ESO pvp it happens at a global level, just like it does in the game of paper-rock-scissors.

That means that by itself rock vs scissors or rock vs paper is not balanced and never will be. This is the result of well intended game design as in "by choice", not a mistake and not something that is supposed to be fixed. So stop asking for it

In an infinite number of hand throws however both paper,rock and scissors will each win about 33% of the hand throws on average. There's your balance.

PvP balance at the cost of PvE balance.

Amen to that brother !

Checkmath

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

When are people going to realize that balance can happen on several levels and in ESO pvp it happens at a global level, just like it does in the game of paper-rock-scissors.

That means that by itself rock vs scissors or rock vs paper is not balanced and never will be. This is the result of well intended game design as in "by choice", not a mistake and not something that is supposed to be fixed. So stop asking for it

In an infinite number of hand throws however both paper,rock and scissors will each win about 33% of the hand throws on average. There's your balance.

PvP balance at the cost of PvE balance.

Also applies the other way round, but hey....nobody cares then?

Vildebill

Hmm do I sense a nerf nightblade thread?

Also, nerf sorcs!

KhajiitFelix

Vildebill wrote: »

Hmm do I sense a nerf nightblade thread?

Also, nerf sorcs!

Hmm do I sense a NB main that will protect his cheap class by any way possible?

VaranisArano

1. If ZOS were really worried about losing players due to class nerfs, Sorcs would like a word about #Nerfmire and their damage shields. And Templars would like a word about being butchered to make Wardens decent healers.

Yeah, ZOS doesn't flinch from class nerfs.


2. "Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads."

Have you heard of a set called "Earthgore"? Vet Bloodroot Forge? Awesome healing set used in PVP as well as PVE?

Sure, Earthgore got nerfed because its effects were absolutely overpowered when used in stacks of 12 players in PVP. But as far as I know, Vet Bloodroot Forge is still sitting there, ready for every player who wants a challenge.

Not to mention the vAS weapons, vMA bows, and every other Trial set that PVPers use where the content they come from hasn't been nerfed so those lazy PVPers can get it.



Just saying, your examples are a little overblown.

IMO, most nerfs happen when things are overused, overpowered in both PVE and PVP, or ZOS wants to shake up the meta so that all the little meta-chasing PVP and PVE players will run the rat race of grinding for yet another update.

White wabbit

Population unbalance yep you got that right

KhajiitFelix

VaranisArano wrote: »

1. If ZOS were really worried about losing players due to class nerfs, Sorcs would like a word about #Nerfmire and their damage shields. And Templars would like a word about being butchered to make Wardens decent healers.

Yeah, ZOS doesn't flinch from class nerfs.


2. "Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads."

Have you heard of a set called "Earthgore"? Vet Bloodroot Forge? Awesome healing set used in PVP as well as PVE?

Sure, Earthgore got nerfed because its effects were absolutely overpowered when used in stacks of 12 players in PVP. But as far as I know, Vet Bloodroot Forge is still sitting there, ready for every player who wants a challenge.

Not to mention the vAS weapons, vMA bows, and every other Trial set that PVPers use hasn't been nerfed.



Just saying, your examples are a little overblown.

IMO, most nerfs happen when things are overused, overpowered in both PVE and PVP, or ZOS wants to shake up the meta so that all the little meta-chasing PVP and PVE players will run the rat race of grinding for yet another update.

Lol almost every sorc said that they got bored of that class and they switched. And ZOS heard that and nerfed that class to Oblivion.

Earthgore can be bought and vBF is pretty hard.

hakan

High elves have the most population iirc. Sth around 32 percent? i dont think high elves make good stamblade, so yeah..

Salty sorc cries. Mhm delicious.

joseayalac

Damn dude OP sure knows how to whine!
Just enjoy the game ! After all games are for fun

VaranisArano

hakan wrote: »

High elves have the most population iirc. Sth around 32 percent? i dont think high elves make good stamblade, so yeah..

Salty sorc cries. Mhm delicious.

As of April 2018 (pre-summerset, so its probably gone up some), Altmer were 14.98% of all characters on PC/Mac.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26349

Now, that's a rather generic number and doesn't necessarily do justice to the PVE end-game community where the percentage may be higher, but that's the last known statistic I've heard of.

KhajiitFelix

hakan wrote: »

High elves have the most population iirc. Sth around 32 percent? i dont think high elves make good stamblade, so yeah..

Salty sorc cries. Mhm delicious.

I'm a DK but ok

SaintSubwayy

Crazy idea on how to balance PVP, really crazy tho

Remove Cyro and BGs from the Game

there problem solved, now we can all go back to questing

valeriiya

PvP and PVE need to be separated and balanced differently.

KhajiitFelix

valeriiya wrote: »

PvP and PVE need to be separated and balanced differently.

This

Mintaka5

Checkmath wrote: »

Nightblades are on the radar of the devs because they are so strong currently. So I would not say, that ZOS does not dare to touch them for the reason of greed. Also the number of 1/3 of players is just made up and is nowhere accurate. Additionally, PvP players, who get upset about the state of PvP or about their class being nerfed, would rather leave ESO than going for the PvE content. Only the people, which actually play PvE regularly might leave PvP in such a case, but those are not the toxic ones.

On the radar? They should be on the chopping block NOW! And I don't mean NBs in general, but specifically the poison stealth builds. I mean they go after sorcs all the time, nerfing skills that don't really need it, yet overtly OP skills and build mechanics on NBs go untouched. I agree there is no balance, because devs simply ignore one thing and go after another, and it's not IMO based on game data, or actual build performances. The devs and class reps are playing political favorites with our classes and builds, and should cut that crap already.

They nerfed magicka shields, sorcs took a nerf hit in the last 3 patches, and yet NBs on both sides (magicka/stamina) remain stronger than ever. Mornings on Vivec have brought me to encounter players who run very strong NB builds, and everything about them cannot be countered. I have a whole bar dedicated to defense, and nothing works through the excessive bleed damage. And how in the world does a class known for being the squishiest, sustain so much health?

Cut the *** ZOS and fix this *** game already!

AcadianPaladin

I do believe PvP and PvE are two different games. If I consider heavy armor, impen, crit, CC, snipe and how differently they function in these two environments, it pretty much makes the case.

Forgive me as I'm a PvE player whose PvP expertise does not exceed that necessary to earn vigor/caltrops on a few of my characters. I hear so many complaints about class balance in PvP would there be any merit to simply having one PvP class - 'Gladiator' perhaps? That seems like like it would certainly level the playing field since all PvPers would have access to the exact same skills and PvP would become much more a matter of pure player skill? Not trying to be a smart atronach or anything, just curious.

VaranisArano

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I do believe PvP and PvE are two different games. If I consider heavy armor, impen, crit, CC, snipe and how differently they function in these two environments, it pretty much makes the case.

Forgive me as I'm a PvE player whose PvP expertise does not exceed that necessary to earn vigor/caltrops on a few of my characters. I hear so many complaints about class balance in PvP would there be any merit to simply having one PvP class - 'Gladiator' perhaps? That seems like like it would certainly level the playing field since all PvPers would have access to the exact same skills and PvP would become much more a matter of pure player skill? Not trying to be a smart atronach or anything, just curious.

The problem with having a single PVP class like "Gladiator" is that PVP in ESO is designed for group content. Cyrodiil is groups of 2 to 24. Battlegrounds is 4v4v4.

More specifically, Cyrodiil is gankers, bombers, solo players, 1vXers, small groups, PUG raids, resource farmers, large organized raids, and many more playstyles. The skills, strengths and weaknesses of all the classes are all on show in Cyrodiil, and to some extent, in Battlegrounds as well. That all goes away if you have groups of "Gladiators" duking it out.

If you want to really boil it down to player skill, I'd suggest joining a Dueling Tournament where you can set the rules to eliminate certain sets, etc.

Unless this "Gladiator" class had access to every class skill to pick from, honestly, that change would make Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds a much less diverse and interesting place.

MisterBigglesworth

I thought this thread was going to be about some sort of structural flaw that literally prevents ZOS from balancing PvP.

But no.

No, it's just a thread where the OP's opinion is "PvP is unbalanced, and it SHOULDN'T be fixed."

KhajiitFelix

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I thought this thread was going to be about some sort of structural flaw that literally prevents ZOS from balancing PvP.

But no.

No, it's just a thread where the OP's opinion is "PvP is unbalanced, and it SHOULDN'T be fixed."

Cost to balance it is too high

Mrsinister2

It seems pretty good somtimes you kill sometimes you die sometimes you feel really strong other times your wrecked before you get a skill off but wtf do I know

p00tx

Ummm...how do you think we ended up with these stupid racial changes that we're all stuck with now? I'll give you a hint...not PvP. It was PvEers demanding to be able to roleplay an Imperial Magden Fairy Princess while running competitive end game content, and screaming that there should be perfect parity between races with no obvious bis race. PvPers don't give a crap which race they're playing, as long as it works and produces results.

It is impossible to create perfect parity/balance when there is competition involved. Don't blame it on PvPers, blame it on Zos for not applying their already existing algorithms to creating sets with bifurcated dmg output based on the target (NPC vs player).

"A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads."

Really? Seriously? Earthgore, Zaan, Thurvoken, Balorghs...all monster helms gained by doing difficult vet DLC content, and all used extensively in PvP. We didn't whine. We got it together and got our butts into those dungeons to farm this stuff. No, many of us didn't enjoy it, but we did it because that's just how the game works. Good grief you are a real piece of work...

StarOfElyon

Checkmath wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's time to learn this. You cried for 4 years, and what are the results? Cancerous PvP. But is this new? NOPE. In the entire gaming history, there almost wasn't any game that has balanced PvP. One of the problems why PvP is so unbalanced is greed. Yes, greed. I'm sure ZOS knows if they are going nerf nightblades to be on par with other classes, they are going to risk to lose 1/3 of the players, and that will hurt ZOS money. But if everyone will quit PvP and go PvE, one of my nightmares might come true. Every toxic PvP player will flood PvE community with even more elitism, salt for doing *** DPS and with players whining to nerfs trials. Please ZOS, stop listening to these PvP saltlords and trying to make the entire game for them when they don't even deserve it.

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

Please ZOS, don't listen to PvPers. It will only ruin your game.

I do not think, that what you described is very accurate.

Yes PvP is never really balanced, but in my opinion we are in a really good state right now. Nightblades are currently the top class for dps in PvE and also stamina nightblades in PvP are a bit too strong in many opinions. Tweaking it somehow to not touch magicka nightblades too much (magicka nightblades are not top dog in PvP anymore, still in PvE they are) would help the game for sure.

Nightblades are on the radar of the devs because they are so strong currently. So I would not say, that ZOS does not dare to touch them for the reason of greed. Also the number of 1/3 of players is just made up and is nowhere accurate. Additionally, PvP players, who get upset about the state of PvP or about their class being nerfed, would rather leave ESO than going for the PvE content. Only the people, which actually play PvE regularly might leave PvP in such a case, but those are not the toxic ones.

The only reason NBs give me a tough time is that they are able to attack from cloak with super high damage. They can run from a fight with you and wait for you to engage with someone else and then sneak attack you. This creates a scenario where I'm constantly taking huge damage against someone I can't see. It's not a lack of skill, it's not due to a bad build, nor is it because of any mistake I made. It's cheesy fighting that's actually encouraged by the game. This creates a feeling of unfairness and turns to bitterness. Having said that, when I can counter their cloak I have a much better experience fighting them. I don't have to win; as long as I can have an opponent that I can see and hit, I'm fine. So while I'm not making threads for NB to be nerfed, I don't have any sympathy for nightblade players either, especially the cloak crutchers. If they get nerfed, good. If they don't, oh well.

Ragnarock41

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's time to learn this. You cried for 4 years, and what are the results? Cancerous PvP. But is this new? NOPE. In the entire gaming history, there almost wasn't any game that has balanced PvP. One of the problems why PvP is so unbalanced is greed. Yes, greed. I'm sure ZOS knows if they are going nerf nightblades to be on par with other classes, they are going to risk to lose 1/3 of the players, and that will hurt ZOS money. But if everyone will quit PvP and go PvE, one of my nightmares might come true. Every toxic PvP player will flood PvE community with even more elitism, salt for doing *** DPS and with players whining to nerfs trials. Please ZOS, stop listening to these PvP saltlords and trying to make the entire game for them when they don't even deserve it.

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

Please ZOS, don't listen to PvPers. It will only ruin your game.

I love how you think PvE players are so peaceful and aren't salty/elitist at all. While the truth is that PvE players have no chance to show their true face due to how easy the game is. Even with that, we still see tons of people crying because they were kicked from their PvE guilds because of not having X class/ Y gear setups.

Such things don't happen in PvP. I don't remember getting kicked from a guild due to inferior gear or an odd class choice for a role. And the nightblade dominance happened because ''the one who must not be named'', kept buffing them patch after patch , and If I recall correctly, Rich Lambert went so far to say ''git gud'' to everyone asking for nerfs. ( Not sure if that was Rich saying this line but it wasn't a suprise either way)

So TL;DR : Nightblade dominance happened because devs favor them, not because players play them. Players in PvP will always go for the strongest setups.

Aurielle

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

A lot of PvE sets and skills are nerfed because of salt produced by PvP players. Just imagine hardest dungeon or trial dropping the best PvP set. PvP players will whine so hard that forums will be flooded with "Nerf X because I can't get Y" threads.

LOL. Do you know how many PVPers have Balorgh? Zaan? Perfected Blackrose weapons? Stop crying and spouting nonsense.

AcadianPaladin

VaranisArano wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I do believe PvP and PvE are two different games. If I consider heavy armor, impen, crit, CC, snipe and how differently they function in these two environments, it pretty much makes the case.

Forgive me as I'm a PvE player whose PvP expertise does not exceed that necessary to earn vigor/caltrops on a few of my characters. I hear so many complaints about class balance in PvP would there be any merit to simply having one PvP class - 'Gladiator' perhaps? That seems like like it would certainly level the playing field since all PvPers would have access to the exact same skills and PvP would become much more a matter of pure player skill? Not trying to be a smart atronach or anything, just curious.

The problem with having a single PVP class like "Gladiator" is that PVP in ESO is designed for group content. Cyrodiil is groups of 2 to 24. Battlegrounds is 4v4v4.

More specifically, Cyrodiil is gankers, bombers, solo players, 1vXers, small groups, PUG raids, resource farmers, large organized raids, and many more playstyles. The skills, strengths and weaknesses of all the classes are all on show in Cyrodiil, and to some extent, in Battlegrounds as well. That all goes away if you have groups of "Gladiators" duking it out.

If you want to really boil it down to player skill, I'd suggest joining a Dueling Tournament where you can set the rules to eliminate certain sets, etc.

Unless this "Gladiator" class had access to every class skill to pick from, honestly, that change would make Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds a much less diverse and interesting place.

@VaranisArano thanks for sharing your insightful explanation.

yodased

Always see rock paper scissors being touted out as clever, but it never actually makes sense. Roshambo it only works because of arbitrary rules, in what world does paper beat rock? Oh because some chinese dude wanted it that way and it symbolizes veto power.

Balance comes by restriction. Limiting variables that can enter into bridge conneCtions and you control the chaos. This game embraces it, run towards it even. Want full capped dps and invisibility? Yaaaas. Want capped defense plus raid healing? Yaaaaaas! Want ranged high damage stuns that also debuffs? Yaaaaas Want melee characters that negate ranged and can pull ranged into melee? Yaaaaass

The concept of singular rule warfare or controlled engagements are way gone here.

Best you can hope is the pendulum swings your way for a bit