Answer this, please
Gnortranermara
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Why not make race cosmetic? Just convert the bonuses to Birthsign.
What reason could there possibly be?
Lore: We could keep the 1 "free" racial utility passive, then convert the others to Birthsign. Birthsigns are in the lore and provide an easy transition to move those combat stat passives away from race.
Technical feasibility: It would be a simple new system to implement. It may need a full PTS cycle to test, but it would not be hard to do.
Player preference: Players would almost universally prefer to play with maximum customization.
Customer relations: Current racial passive changes are being perceived as a slimy cash-grab. To be fair, this perception is probably unavoidable because you can't make everyone happy, but some of these changes are really bad at the moment. The company could eliminate all such complaints by separating race from combat passives. You'll go from losing customers to retaining them.
Financial: ZOS would sell more race and name tokens as players convert from their current "meta" race to the cosmetic appearance they prefer.
Isn't this a win-win-win for just about everybody involved?
Edited by Gnortranermara on February 7, 2019 4:12PM What reason could there possibly be?
Lore: We could keep the 1 "free" racial utility passive, then convert the others to Birthsign. Birthsigns are in the lore and provide an easy transition to move those combat stat passives away from race.
Technical feasibility: It would be a simple new system to implement. It may need a full PTS cycle to test, but it would not be hard to do.
Player preference: Players would almost universally prefer to play with maximum customization.
Customer relations: Current racial passive changes are being perceived as a slimy cash-grab. To be fair, this perception is probably unavoidable because you can't make everyone happy, but some of these changes are really bad at the moment. The company could eliminate all such complaints by separating race from combat passives. You'll go from losing customers to retaining them.
Financial: ZOS would sell more race and name tokens as players convert from their current "meta" race to the cosmetic appearance they prefer.
Isn't this a win-win-win for just about everybody involved?
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stewhead2ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are numerous threads already available on this topic for you to peruse at your leisure. Enjoy.1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You first: Why couldn't you simply ask that same question in your thread title?Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.SpoilerI am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS3 -
myskyrim26✭✭✭✭✭
✭I totally agree. I would change my race in every zone. I wish I could be a Bosmer in Valenwood, Argonian in Murkmire and Altmer in Summerset. I would change races like I change outfits now. I would gladly pay for this.
Why I don't do it now? Well, racial passives...
Also, this could open more race options: Maormer, Naga... even Tsaeci if we'll have them in ESO! I'd pay a lot for that. Not lore-friendly? Why, we already have a Necromancer saving the world... Why not a Maormer Necromancer saving it?Edited by myskyrim26 on February 6, 2019 10:49PM1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Why not make race cosmetic?
Because then it's not a race. It's a costume."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."6 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why have different weights for armor?
Why have different effects for weapon types?
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Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
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Because then it's not a race. It's a costume.
Tell that to every ES game before now. Race gave initial skill/stat bonuses, but was effectively cosmetic at endgame.Edited by Gnortranermara on February 6, 2019 10:53PM9 -
myskyrim26✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »
Tell that to every ES game before now. Race gave initial skill/stat bonuses, but was effectively cosmetic at endgame.
I never even paid attention to these initial bonuses when chose my race in prevoius TES games. Benefits were next to nothing, not worth considering at all.
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭myskyrim26 wrote: »
To make more fuss and mess, I believe. To keep players busy.
Hm, yes, I see it now.
"How much damage does this dagger do?"
"20 hp."
"I see. And what about this warhammer?"
"20 hp."
"....uh huh. And this 'Legendary Apocalyptic Ancient Dragon Bone Battle Axe of Soul Sucking'?"
"20 hp."
".............alrighty then. And just out of curiosity, how about that fully armed giant robot behind you with the label 'Liberty Prime' on it?"
"20 hp.""He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zos has already answered this question very clearly
If you have not read it I suggest you read the pinned thread Gil posted about the changes shortly before the PTS went live. Your main questions are answered and it leaves no doubt.
Probably the most significant one I listed below, of which your suggestion takes this away.Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
And of course this.Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
LastSidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Financial: ZOS would sell more race and name tokens as players convert from their current "meta" race to the cosmetic appearance they prefer.
Isn't this a win-win-win for just about everybody involved?
It is a huge stretch to suggest Zos would sell more race change tokens if race was just cosmetic. Just as it is a huge stretch it be a win-win-win for everyone to abandon the history of this game and make race choice boring.Edited by idk on February 6, 2019 11:06PM1 -
myskyrim26✭✭✭✭✭
✭@idk
There will never be any unique feeling races give. There will be meta - to make a tank you need a Nord... oh wait, Imperial... No! All again. Argonian. Yeah, this, at least for 3 months.
And lore doesn't work here because it is a gameplay. As it was clearly stated many times, lore is not gameplay and gameplay is not lore. And - oh... Necromancer saving the world... You know...Edited by myskyrim26 on February 6, 2019 11:06PM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭myskyrim26 wrote: »@idk
There will never be any unique feeling races give. There will be meta - to make a tank you need a Nord... oh wait, Imperial... No! All again. Argonian. Yeah, this, at least for 3 months.
And lore doesn't work here because it is a gameplay. As it was clearly stated many times, lore is not gameplay and gameplay is not lore. And - oh... Necromancer saving the world... You know...
You contradict yourself saying there will not be uniqueness yet suggest a meta. There cannot be a meta if there is not a uniqueness to races.
Lore is very much part of the game. You can dismiss it all you want but your points fail. Surprisingly MrSkyrim has missed the point.
Besides, the points I brought up are facts. They are the answers Zos has provided that answer the questions asked in the title and the OP. If you can somehow provide something better Zos has provided to answer the question then please do. Otherwise it is just an opinion you are providing..
Edit: You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I merely stated the difference between what you posted and what I posted.Edited by idk on February 6, 2019 11:15PM0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭myskyrim26 wrote: »@idk
There will never be any unique feeling races give. There will be meta - to make a tank you need a Nord... oh wait, Imperial... No! All again. Argonian. Yeah, this, at least for 3 months.
And lore doesn't work here because it is a gameplay. As it was clearly stated many times, lore is not gameplay and gameplay is not lore. And - oh... Necromancer saving the world... You know...
You just showed why, no matter how it is explained to you, you can never understand the answer.
Meta isn't everything. You must first unlearn all that you know, grasshopper.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos has already answered this question very clearly
If you have not read it I suggest you read the pinned thread Gil posted about the changes shortly before the PTS went live. Your main questions are answered and it leaves no doubt.
Probably the most significant one I listed below, of which your suggestion takes this away.
And of course this.
I don't think this suggestion contradicts the stated goals at all.
Making race cosmetic would ENHANCE racial identities in the game, not destroy them. Every racial culture in the lore has sectors of their society that align with mag, stam, and tanky builds. Now think about it, who makes player characters? Players. And most players have an image in their head of what they want to make. Sure, there will be some fat orcs in pink bathing towels no matter what ZOS does, but the majority of players build a character based on a certain lore-based archetype from one of those cultures. But currently, those players get nudged into making their characters the "meta" race, even if the meta race doesn't match what they really want to do. So suppose I wanna play a Nord berserker warrior DPS. Can't (if I care about stats). Or a Nord frost mage. Still can't (because I do care about stats). Or a lore-appropriate Imperial Battlemage? Nope. See how racial passives are limiting racial identities?
In fact, this racial stat system absolutely destroys Alliance race population balance because people choose meta races from other alliances far more than they would if race were merely cosmetic. How many Redguards and Argonians and High Elves have crossed alliances for a DPS test or a new PvP build? The Alliances have lost their racial identities and racial passives are to blame for that. This suggestion fixes it.
And they'd still "Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns", just using a Birthsign system that allowed players to truly choose their own playstyle instead of a restrictive racial system. I'm proposing a major improvement here. The idea has been around for a while but it is uniquely suited to save the day at this moment, when the company is facing the possibility of making a lot of unhappy customers. As Gil stated, the problem is that "racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom". This suggestion would solve that problem far better than racial passives do (especially if they're mishandled).
AAAAAAAAND it'll make more money for the company when they eliminate a major customer gripe point and sell Race changes like hot cakes.Edited by Gnortranermara on February 7, 2019 7:31AM1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
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Excuse me? LOL.
You just showed that no matter what actual facts are presented to you you will never understand the answer. I provided the actual answer Zos gave us (scroll up) and you guys choose to argue with me about Zos' stance and comments. Then you reply like this.
And my reply was based on Zos' statement. Thank you.
You seem to have me confused with someone else.
Looks like maybe you responded to the @idk in the quote and thought I was talking to you.Edited by Glurin on February 6, 2019 11:40PM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭myskyrim26 wrote: »@idk
There will never be any unique feeling races give. There will be meta - to make a tank you need a Nord... oh wait, Imperial... No! All again. Argonian. Yeah, this, at least for 3 months.
And lore doesn't work here because it is a gameplay. As it was clearly stated many times, lore is not gameplay and gameplay is not lore. And - oh... Necromancer saving the world... You know...
Meta is something I am guessing more than 90% of the players really have little interest in. Most players don't have any desire to compete for leader boards and it doesn't take Meta to finish any of the games content.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Answer me this, why do we have to go around the Monopoly board and can’t go diagonal? Why do the different chess pieces have different movement restrictions? Why do face cards have a higher value? Why does mythology separate gods from mortals?
The challenge of a game is for you to “win” given a set of limitations. Else every game in existence would be “who can smash this the most with their fists?”#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Race will not be cosmetic. It never was cosmetic. It was never intended to be cosmetic.
Just. Stop.0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you just relax a bit about the passive powers? They already are 'cosmetic'.
(seriously, I picked the races for my various characters by appearance and theme. Yes, they have passives and I've put points into them, but I didn't really consider them when making the characters. In that sense, the race was 'cosmetic' for me. So, yeah. If you want the race to be 'cosmetic'.... just stop worrying so hard about the passive powers, and just pick the damn race you want.)
edit: especially since, if they did make races purely 'cosmetic'? They wouldn't then add 2 or 4% to all the classes. They'd just take the racial passives away. You wouldn't be gaining any power in some class rebalance. So just <elsa>Let It Go</elsa>...
Edited by Kiralyn2000 on February 6, 2019 11:57PM1 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Answer me this, why do we have to go around the Monopoly board and can’t go diagonal? Why do the different chess pieces have different movement restrictions? Why do face cards have a higher value? Why does mythology separate gods from mortals?
The challenge of a game is for you to “win” given a set of limitations. Else every game in existence would be “who can smash this the most with their fists?”
You speak as if you're arguing against someone who wants the passives removed from the game altogether, so you can't possibly be talking to me. I'm suggesting the improvement of moving them to Birthsign instead, which has tangible benefits for players and the company, and no downside that has stood up to scrutiny so far. It wouldn't affect gameplay in the way you're implying at all.0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »
You speak as if you're arguing against someone who wants the passives removed from the game altogether, so you can't possibly be talking to me. I'm suggesting the improvement of moving them to Birthsign instead, which has tangible benefits for players and the company, and no downside that has stood up to scrutiny so far. It wouldn't affect gameplay in the way you're implying at all.
My bad bro.
There will still always be 1 best choice if it were moved to birth signs. It just shifts the goal post. Also I don’t think the current team at Zos are capable/willing to rewrite any deep fundamentals governing the game. It seems like they are working with a set number of ingredients for this game and just adjusting dials. When something “new “ comes out it is transparently a cobble together version of an existing system.
#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭There will still always be 1 best choice if it were moved to birth signs. It just shifts the goal post. Also I don’t think the current team at Zos are capable/willing to rewrite any deep fundamentals governing the game. It seems like they are working with a set number of ingredients for this game and just adjusting dials. When something “new “ comes out it is transparently a cobble together version of an existing system.
Sure, I think it's generally true that the game's management team has limitations on what they can do. But this should be a really easy one. We know that they can manipulate skill lines, that they can make new UI's, and that they can create a new Crown Store Token. There's virtually zero technical challenges here. It's an old idea, but I saw an opportunity to bring it back up because this is a unique moment where doing this could print them free money, solve a customer satisfaction problem, and have some pretty lore-enhancing effects on the aesthetic of the game at the same time as people choose more diverse race/class combos.0 -
Jameliel✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »
Tell that to every ES game before now. Race gave initial skill/stat bonuses, but was effectively cosmetic at endgame.
ESO has moved very far away from actually being a TES game. There are many people who play this game and never played a TES game. For them the compulsion to play isnt influenced by how excellent TES III Morrowind was. They cant possibly understand how incredible ESO should be. For the vast majority of players, it's easier to make excuses for the constant changes which increase management and shareholder profits first and foremost. In the minds of these players, they formulate a fantasy where the game is created mostly for their pleasure, and not for the financial gain of those in charge. They have a difficult time grasping that their pleasure is only important to the point where they will pay money. Since they continue to pay out money regardless of what direction the game goes, ZOS continues to milk them. This will continue long after the rest of us have moved on.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with OP that race should be cosmetic. Specifically, race selection should not channel characters into stamina or magicka any more than gender does. Gender is cosmetic only and that seems to work pretty well. There are loads of ways to tweak and optimize the combat efficiency of characters while having gender and race be cosmetic.
Previous ES games had 'racials' that may have given a small starting bonus but became completely irrelevant by later in the game - by design so as to not channel characters into stereotype boxes. Shalidor was an awesome Nordic mage and, given the monumental impact our character has in each ES game, there is no reason why each character we make cannot be equally non-stereotypical.
I get that there are those who disagree but I happen to agree with OP here.
PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I pick races for toons as the toons tell me what they are. That's my bottom line, and it's not going to change. I never chase meta.
Now, really, y'all are arguing stuff that's - just silly. Race really is already non-germane, as the passives (except for a few) weren't anything important.
Pick the race you want to be, and the devil take the hindmost.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »
I don't think this suggestion contradicts the stated goals at all.
Their stated goal seem top be in line with their actions. Granted, we can all come up with ideas that in general sense seem to be in line with those stated goals but it is clear Zos intends to keep racial passives that have a combat aspect tied to each race. This is the second time they have had the opportunity to change that, the first time they considered decoupling them, and have chosen to stay the course.
Not knocking your opinion as we are all entitled to them as sometimes we come up with great ideas Zos chooses to use.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »AAAAAAAAND it'll make more money for the company when they eliminate a major customer gripe point and sell Race changes like hot cakes.
Sorry, but this is an assumption you have no foundation for. Unless you have actual basis for this statement it is empty words. You are just guessing.0