4vs4 or 6vs6 Battleground implementing

exeeter702

Well i guess ill say it again here...

8v8 bgs is the proper format for 2 team affairs. It solves premade vs pugs, the lopsided nature of 3 team format, alleviates the need for strict mmr matchmaking and lastly it improves the overall queue expedience.

Premade vs pugs

The issue here is that 4 player coordination is infinitely easier and noticeably dominant vs random groups in a 4 player group format. The larger the player count the more variables are added to make it harder to carry. An 8v8 format where premades are limited to 4 man groups still retains the incentive to play as a group but does not garuntee dominance vs the other team. Marchmaking simply prioritizes 4 man premades with other 4 man premades until the entire bg is filled. On one extreme you end up with 4 premade groups in a bg (2 on each team). On the other extreme you have a 4 man premade with 4 solos on each team. And then everything inbetween with duos and solo queues etc etc.

Lopsided non competitive format of 4v4v4
when i say non competitive, i dont pretend that there is some sleeper esport potential that is going unrealized in eso. All this means is that 3 way team formats are casual by nature in that there are only so many ways a single team can dictate the outcome of a match. I dont care what kind of hyper anecdotal examples one can churn out to try and over explain the tactical depth of 3 way capture the flag. Sorry but its a crap shoot at best. Incorporating a 3 team pvp system only means the end goal was an all inclusive gameplay pastime where fun factor is at the forefront over any desire to facilitate a system where the team that played the match better wins more often than not.

Alleviating the need for ranked matchmaking

8v8 objective based BGs where 4 man groups are limit when hitting the queue button create a scenario where queue times overall tend to be healthy and if the bgs are desgined well, a player with less skill can still have a meaningful contribution and not feel like canon fodder. On the other side, 8 man groups are large enough yet not too large that player responsibility and performance actually carries a measureable weight in the outcome of a match compared to the more hyper competitive 3v3 and 4v4 formats where each player has an equally bright spot light shined on them with expectation of performance.

Improved queue times

This goes without saying, but having to fill two teams of 8 is far more streamlined than having to fill 3 teams of 4, and if a match has to start with 6 or 7v8 its not a lost cause out of the gate. Coupled with a smart premade group sorting algorithm and bgs being more attractive for the solo queue player, you will generally have a more lively population.

I want to just bring something up that often is said on the subject to help explain one last facet that i believe eso has failed on regarding BGs.

"8v8" would just devolve into balling up and ult dumping"

When BGs are conceptualized and developed from the ground up with a particular format in mind (ctf, koth, etc etc) the above concern ceases to exist and all but gaurntees a quick loss if attempted. The issue with eso bgs is that while the maps are well done from a techncial standpoint, the fact that the bgs are meant to house mutliple different game modes, completely hamstrung any solid game mode formats from really coming to life. A map specifically desgined to house a domination or ctf game mode would have gone a long way towards engaging bgs that simultaneously mandate actual pvp exchanges WHILE also all but making sure a swift loss will ensue if objectives are ignored, which in the current state often enough you end up in situations where you are almost better off avoiding pvp in order to win, which should never be the case.

So much lost potential.

montiferus

exeeter702 wrote: »

Well i guess ill say it again here...

8v8 bgs is the proper format for 2 team affairs. It solves premade vs pugs, the lopsided nature of 3 team format, alleviates the need for strict mmr matchmaking and lastly it improves the overall queue expedience..

Not sure why it has to be 8v8. While that would be a nice option for larger groups some of use prefer something smaller.

For me and the people I run with a 4v4 would be preferable.

No reason why they can't have 2v2 all the way up to 24v24.

exeeter702

montiferus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Well i guess ill say it again here...

8v8 bgs is the proper format for 2 team affairs. It solves premade vs pugs, the lopsided nature of 3 team format, alleviates the need for strict mmr matchmaking and lastly it improves the overall queue expedience..

Not sure why it has to be 8v8. While that would be a nice option for larger groups some of use prefer something smaller.

For me and the people I run with a 4v4 would be preferable.

No reason why they can't have 2v2 all the way up to 24v24.

Because first of all, 8v8 is an even format for grouping in eso.

And second, the entire point is that bgs need to be improved. No one is talking about adding small scale 2 team arena pvp formats, which is an entirely separate discussion. 8v8 is the ideal scenario when dealing with the pug vs premade issue and the issue of having tonwork around objective play without being at the expense of incentive to actually pvp, for reasons that i explicitly expained in my post.

2v2 is terribly unbalanced, and 24v24 is abysmal and carries verry little meaningful avenues for actually performing as an individual in a match and having a measure influence on the outcome. 24 man bgs are unwieldy and devolve into shallow endeavors where the theatrics of being in a fight of that scale weighs more heavily than placing responsiblity equally among team members. That kind of experience is what cyrodil is for.

montiferus

exeeter702 wrote: »

Because first of all, 8v8 is an even format for grouping in eso.

And second, the entire point is that bgs need to be improved. No one is talking about adding small scale 2 team arena pvp formats, which is an entirely separate discussion. 8v8 is the ideal scenario when dealing with the pug vs premade issue and the issue of having tonwork around objective play without being at the expense of incentive to actually pvp, for reasons that i explicitly expained in my post.

Dont agree at all. This seems like something you want, isn't necessarily applicable to everyone and are therefore foisting it upon us. Some of us play in 3-5 man groups and there is NO reason why there shouldn't be a venue for us to compete. Im all for 8v8 but to suggest that should be the only option is beyond myopic.

And for the record I am talking about premade vs premade.

exeeter702

montiferus wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Because first of all, 8v8 is an even format for grouping in eso.

And second, the entire point is that bgs need to be improved. No one is talking about adding small scale 2 team arena pvp formats, which is an entirely separate discussion. 8v8 is the ideal scenario when dealing with the pug vs premade issue and the issue of having tonwork around objective play without being at the expense of incentive to actually pvp, for reasons that i explicitly expained in my post.

Dont agree at all. This seems like something you want, isn't necessarily applicable to everyone and are therefore foisting it upon us. Some of us play in 3-5 man groups and there is NO reason why there shouldn't be a venue for us to compete. Im all for 8v8 but to suggest that should be the only option is beyond myopic.

And for the record I am talking about premade vs premade.

Im talking about solving the issue of premades vs pugs and the overall objectives that implementing bgs into an mmo entails. Having 2v2 up to 24v24 is awful for mutliple reasons, not even mentioning the logistical headache it would cause for the devs.

3v3 and 4v4 works when class design is structured around that format, which is to say eso is compatible. 3v3 and 4v4 are generally DM style formats that do not lend themselves very well to pug an premade queue times and the issues that come of that.

Bgs on the other hand, and as they were intended to be in ESO, are smaller scale instanced pvp scenarios with objectives baked into the maps to facilitate a balanced match without the trappings of "world pvp" and the lopsided, server burdened issues that generally come with that. This is not an ESO specific thing. This is why for BGs 8v8 is an ideal format because as i explained, you limit 4 man groups to premade (as is already the case right now so nothing changes) which creates an environment where you dont have to split queues between premades or solo etc etc. Premade groups still carry an influence but a match does not end up being a lost cuase because you are only half the team. This has been dont before in many mmos and im speaking from experience here seeing where it has failed and where itnhas succeeded in numerous mmos over the last decade.

Eso pvp population in bgs currently is not robust enough to support a segregated queue pool. And 3 way team format was an attempted half measure to give everyone a chance but that isnt how it works.

Liww

I would really like this, but with resistance capped at 35% mitigation and something similar to dampening(over time healing done is reduced). It wont be fun with ball group vs ball group like zergs.

I would really like a larger open map with 2 teams and ctf mode aswel, it's generic but eso has so much cool speed sets etc that dont have anything to do in the zerg bg's we currently have.

exeeter702

Liww wrote: »

I would really like this, but with resistance capped at 35% mitigation and something similar to dampening(over time healing done is reduced). It wont be fun with ball group vs ball group like zergs.

I would really like a larger open map with 2 teams and ctf mode aswel, it's generic but eso has so much cool speed sets etc that dont have anything to do in the zerg bg's we currently have.

That is what is being said. Tdm formats with anything larger than 4 man teams is nonsesne. The 6v6 or 8v8 suggestion is in part desired along side intelligent map design made for specific game modes. The arguements that 6 or 8 player teams would just create worse ult dumping ball groups should just be ignored, as people making those claims do not know what they are talking about and likely have never stepped foot in an instanced bg before ESO.

Irylia

A ranked system for bg would be nice. Available on weekends Saturday/Sunday 12pm-12am

MalagenR

Irylia wrote: »

A ranked system for bg would be nice. Available on weekends Saturday/Sunday 12pm-12am

A true ranked system that functions similar to the WOW design would be great. High ranked teams wouldn't need to fight so constantly to maintain their ranking (because they get very minimal points from beating low ranked teams) and would more consistently fight each other during primetime.

But, you know, it's impossible to please everyone. Implementing a system like that will just cause people to complain about que duckers.

exeeter702

MalagenR wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

A ranked system for bg would be nice. Available on weekends Saturday/Sunday 12pm-12am

A true ranked system that functions similar to the WOW design would be great. High ranked teams wouldn't need to fight so constantly to maintain their ranking (because they get very minimal points from beating low ranked teams) and would more consistently fight each other during primetime.

But, you know, it's impossible to please everyone. Implementing a system like that will just cause people to complain about que duckers.

There are far more issues with that than simply upsetting a player demographic.

Ranked in wow works for a few reasons. An adequate pvp player base and a proper competitive format.

Eso bgs have neither of those two things. If you split bg queues into to catagories - ranked and unranked, queue times would be quite poor. And the very random casual factor that exists because of the 3 team format makes a ranked option a complete joke.

ecru

MalagenR wrote: »

4v4v4 is designed to balance because if you do get a premade in a 4v4v4 it gives the two non premade groups (if they are intelligent enough to figure it out) the ability to gang up on the coordinated group.

lol this post.

4v4v4 gives the premade the ability to constantly rear-end the other two pug teams while they are fighting. It gives them a bigger advantage than they would otherwise have.

BGs should be 8v8. 6v6 is still too small and would leave to teams too easily imbalanced by the presence of a few healers or exceptional players. 8v8 could allow premades to queue as a group of 4 and still queue with/against pugs with a proper matchmaking system.

It's pretty easy to figure out what to do and what not to do by just looking at every other mmo with instanced pvp. What not to do: three teams, very small teams, entire teams of premades vs pugs. That's pretty much it. ZOS got all of them wrong.

What we have is a constant chaotic mess instead of what could be normal, fun, instanced pvp.

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, I think two teams wouldn’t work well. Three larger teams would be great.

I don't know if people like you who are really rooting for this whole three team system realize, but every other game in existence has only two teams. There is nothing exceptional or different about ESO that makes two teams (again, like every other game) a bad idea.