All nerfs are for pvp.

russelmmendoza

Why is that when I hear zos making a nerf its all in the name of pvp.
Is eso a pvp only game.
When they say most of the players complain about a class or skill do they count the pve players as well.
Show me a players statistics that is more than 50% of the player base is asking to nerf a class or a skill and I will accept that nerf.
It better be all the player base pvp and pve.

AMeanOne

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Why is that when I hear zos making a nerf its all in the name of pvp.

Maybe because that's what you want to hear? Sure sounds like it

russelmmendoza

Seriously, give me a playerbase percentile that all playerbase, both pvp and pve, more that 50% is asking for that nerf.

WillhelmBlack

Whining.

russelmmendoza

My asking for proof is whining?

Turelus

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Seriously, give me a playerbase percentile that all playerbase, both pvp and pve, more that 50% is asking for that nerf.

Even if more than 50% are not asking for it, it won't change the fact that ESO has joint skills in PvP and PvE. So they will always make changes for one which effects the other.

Both sides have suffered due to this over the years.

SaintSubwayy

Turelus wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Seriously, give me a playerbase percentile that all playerbase, both pvp and pve, more that 50% is asking for that nerf.

Even if more than 50% are not asking for it, it won't change the fact that ESO has joint skills in PvP and PvE. So they will always make changes for one which effects the other.

Both sides have suffered due to this over the years.

agreed, and its time they start to split this up into PVE / PVP skills, or balance this mess via Battlespirit to get PVP into a reasonable balance, while pVE changes affect Baseskills, they can set values to BS...but they wont do that

Kel

It stems from a lack of separation from the two. That's just the way it is.
If a change they make is overpowered in PvP, it needs fixed.
You wouldn't find this problem if the development was separated, but unfortunately that's not the case in ESO. If that's something you can't deal with, ESO will never make you happy. Unless the development team changes their mind, this is just the way it is.

russelmmendoza

So lets base game decision by player votes.

Ask all the players before they implement a nerf.

Both pvp and pve players.

Kel

russelmmendoza wrote: »

So lets base game decision by player votes.

Ask all the players before they implement a nerf.

Both pvp and pve players.

That's ridiculous and impractical.
I'd much rather them try to do what's best for both sides, even if you don't like the change.

You don't let the inmates run the asylum....

bitels

Nerfs are implemented for various reasons. Both thanks to PvP as well PvE. Sometimes even if no one complain about certain skills/classes/races, they still can be nerfed based only on data zenimax gathered, or based on direction they want to take with combat. Saying "all nerf are thanks to PvP" is just misleading
Give examples of nerfs you are talking about and then we can talk

VaranisArano

Nerfs don't work like that.

We players don't get nerfs (or buffs) because we players want them. Players get nerfs because the Developers want to nerf something.

If you wanted players to agree to nerfs before they happen, they'd never happen.

Nerfs (and rarely buffs) happening every single update are, whether you like it or not, an integral part of ESO ever since One Tamriel brought horizontal progression to the game.

I'm going to go in some detail below when I add to this post.

Added the more details.

Ugh, where to begin? Its a complex topic that you are trying too boil down to an extremely simplistic way of looking at nerfs. Warning: Wall of Text! Much of the following is true of buffs as well as nerfs, but we're mainly talking about nerfs in this thread.

Let's start with the WHY? Why does ZOS nerf things in PVP and PVP every single update?

ZOS nerfs things in both PVP and PVE every single update for a reason that is true for both PVE and PVP. Horizontal Progression. See, ever since One Tamriel, players progress slowly and get more powerful thanks to Champion Points. But that's slow and...boring. Players who reach the peak of performance with their builds and stay there for long periods of time are satisfied! And then they do everything and get bored. And eventually, they get bored enough to leave. That's bad for the bottom line, that is. So ZOS doesn't let players get bored. They change the meta. They nerf the overused sets. They make gameplay, class, gear, and race changes so that players, now unsatisfied with their builds performing slightly less well than before, will continue to grind until they are meta again and reach the same level of play as before.

See, its a lot cheaper and easier to keep players running around the hamster wheel with constant changes to their builds than it is to continually design new content so players will never be bored.

Note too, that this is true of both PVP and PVE. That's right, even if PVP were completely removed from ESO, the Devs would still have this reason to continually tweak and nerf your PVE builds!

TLDR: Changing things every update happens because of horizontal progression to keep players interested and grinding away. That's true even if you removed PVP.

But Varanis, my PVE builds are fine. They don't need a nerf.

Ah, but you are looking from the player perspective. Take a look at it from a developer perspective instead.

First, remember that satisfied players = happy players for a time. ZOS wants to maximize your time in game because that's profitable and good for an MMO. So they want you to be satisfied...enough that you'll grind every update to get your beloved characters back into fighting shape to follow the meta.

Second, consider it from the perspective of the dungeon and trial bosses (and the developers who design them). There is a point where player DPS or support roles are too good for the content. The Developers do not want challenging PVE content to be too easy. When it becomes too easy, expect PVE nerfs incoming soon. If the Devs never nerfed PVE for this reason, you'd see an awful lot of power creep, which has a direct impact on new content development. As the top tier of players become more powerful, old content becomes outdated and new content has to become extremely challenging. Instead ZOS periodically resets the DPS ceiling with nerfs (Morrowind was a huge example of this) so they can keep a lid on PVE difficulty.

TLDR: PVE players often don't see the need for PVE nerfs, but the Devs do.


Varanis, seriously, nerfs only happen because PVPers complain, right?
Yes and No. Some nerfs happen because PVPers complained. Some nerfs happen becuase the Devs saw an issue in PVE and wanted to address it. Some nerfs happen for the sake of changing up the meta as described above. Some nerfs happen when no one asked for them.

First, for better or for worse, ZOS balances PVE and PVP together. Like it or not, they do. They also use Battle Spirit sparingly, so even when they could choose to make something a PVP only change, they've usually chosen to let it stand in PVE as well. That's a deliberate choice by the Devs. Why this is beneficial from the Devs' perspective is another essay - ask if you want that one.

As stated above, ZOS often has both PVP and PVE reasons for nerfing/adjusting things. Usually its because it was overperforming or overused.

Let's look at three major gameplay changes, okay? Morrowind, Murkmire, and the upcoming racial changes.

Morrowind majorly nerfed sustain with the revamped champion point system and heavy attacks for regen. When we look at the patch notes (under Combat and Gameplay) we see that ZOS points out areas where things were overperforming and too effective, true in PVE and PVP. In the case of group synergies, they point out things being overused in end-game content. In the case of block changes, they specifically lay out how they expect the change to benefit PVP and PVE.

Murkmire was another big gameplay shift with major nerfs to commonly used damage shields, passive dodge, and speed effects. In the case of damage shields, this is again another example of ZOS making changes with both PVE and PVP in mind. ZOS Dev Rob Garrett pointed out that they were concerned about damage shield in both PVE and PVP making it too easy to have high defense and high offense and we see this repeated in the Patch Notes.

Finally, when I look at the upcoming racial changes, I think its hard to argue that these nerfs are being done for PVP reasons. ZOS balances PVE like its a game of King of the Hill, and right now I see an awful lot of PVE players on the PTS trying very hard to make sure their particular race doesn't slide to the bottom of the hill. Racial changes are a big PVE-oriented change that will have a much bigger impact on the end-game PVE community annd is largely driven by PVE concerns about over- and under-used races.

Those aren't exhaustive examples of nerfs that ZOS has made for PVE and PVP reasons. We could talk about Burning Spellweave, nerfed because it was the PVE meta for mag DPS. We could talk about Warhorn, nerfed so that PVE trials guilds have a reason to bring a Token Warden Teammate. We could talk about Templars, who were butchered to make the Warden special. There's a lot of nerfs and adjustments that were made for reasons other than PVP complaints.

TLDR: Sometimes, nerfs happen because of PVPer complaints. More often, nerfs happen because ZOS wants to address something in both PVE and PVP.


In conclusion (because lets be honest, my english teachers would be laughing if they saw me writing an essay about video gaming balance ), nerfs happen because ZOS wants them to happen, not because of PVP. First, even if PVP were completely removed from ESO, the Devs would still nerf builds and change gameplay in order to keep players chasing the ever changing meta and to keep a hold on power creep. Second, the Devs deliberately choose to balance PVE and PVP together even when they have Battle Spirit to let them make PVP only change. Finally, while some nerfs happen because of PVP concerns, those are definitely not the sole reason for nerfs, as seen from the Dev comments, patch notes, and implementation of those nerfs.

Even more TLDR: ESO is not the sort of game where the Devs are going to let you vote on whether or not nerfs happen. Nerfs happen when the Devs want to change up the meta and cut down on power creep. Historically, they happen for both PVE and PVP reasons with the impact on both PVE and PVP being deliberate choices by the Devs.

russelmmendoza

So what is this, a tyrant rule over the ones playing the game.

Ask all the players before you implement a decision base on not more than half of the population playing the game.

I guaranty you pvp players are not more that 50% of the playerbase.

Turelus

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Seriously, give me a playerbase percentile that all playerbase, both pvp and pve, more that 50% is asking for that nerf.

Even if more than 50% are not asking for it, it won't change the fact that ESO has joint skills in PvP and PvE. So they will always make changes for one which effects the other.

Both sides have suffered due to this over the years.

agreed, and its time they start to split this up into PVE / PVP skills, or balance this mess via Battlespirit to get PVP into a reasonable balance, while pVE changes affect Baseskills, they can set values to BS...but they wont do that

I would much prefer battle spirit was the changer.
I do agree with their design choice that a skill should work in PvP like it does in PvE so you're not learning everything twice and having to keep up with two different sets of patch notes on your skills.

brandonv516

russelmmendoza wrote: »

So lets base game decision by player votes.

Ask all the players before they implement a nerf.

Both pvp and pve players.

That would honestly not be something most people would want them spending their time on.

Sounds like a lot of man hours that could be utilized better elsewhere.

Class Reps are about the closest thing to what you are looking for but even their words can fall on deaf ears.

Kel

russelmmendoza wrote: »

So what is this, a tyrant rule over the ones playing the game.

Ask all the players before you implement a decision base on not more than half of the population playing the game.

I guaranty you pvp players are not more that 50% of the playerbase.

So, what you're asking for is a tyrannical vote based on the majority of the player base...yeah, that's much better....

And yes, Zos owns ESO, we do not. Read the ToS....every decision is theirs to make. You can voice opinion, and that's about it.
You act like among all PvE players there would be universal approval.
That's hilarious.

I remember when hitting 30k was amazing. Now players are hitting double that.
PvE is doing just fine...

Brrrofski

Thing is, it's a PvP and pve game. So either be prepared for one to have an influence the other, or find a new game where this doesn't occur.

Pretty simple really.

Feanor

This again? After 5 years it should be clear that ZOS doesn’t want skills and items to function differently in PvE and PvP (with some rare exceptions) because they believe in a unified game experience. And Battle Spirit is used for global changes only, such as the 50% reductions to damage, Healing, and shield strength. ZOS clearly doesn’t want an ever growing exception list because it’s a) confusing for new players and b) not very practical. It’s their design, like it or not.

Blaming PvP isn’t going to change that, even if it were true that nerfs are done because PvP players tend to be more vocal. In the end, I’d say the impact of changes for PvE is rather small - content gets cleared just as fast as before, and after a few days, everyone is back to their scripted routine.

WoppaBoem

PVP is killed in matter of second due to overperforming and PVE is like a drop from 50K DPS to 49K DPS or something. The new sets come out for PVE all of the time and that DPS comes back.

Yes nerfs are sometimes very important in PVP to balance the game. Yes PVE can suffer form this. But PVE is much more than only one or two specific skills that are impacted. Its very much about sets rotation of multiple skills and group collaboration.

Open your eyes a bit mate there is a whole exiting world out there.

LiraTaurwen

I see this game as a whole, pve and pvp are part of the same world and story. My character does quests and dungeons and helps npcs but it also fights for her alliance and joins in battleground fights. I think nerfing skills because they are overperforming, no matter on which side of the game, is not a bad thing. We can always adapt to these changes, just like when things change in the real world.

Besides it's normal that the real impact of an overpowered skill is noticed mostly on pvp because bosses and mobs won't complaint that our characteres are overpowered lol

xxthir13enxx

Btw...
All PVE NERF’s were requested forand voted on by the NPC Union for Equal Rights and to Counter acts of Gross Violence against their fellow NPCs
N i hear the members of the Dark Brotherhood are holding Family members of the Dev Team hostage...

InvictusApollo

It's because trial bosses do not whine when they have to face 8 nightblades

Kolache

Thank goodness balancing decisions (especially nerfs) aren't made by popular vote.

PS. PvE in this game doesn't need to be any easier than it already is.