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Sustain in PVE DPS.
usmcjdking
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There is no point in going over the minimum in sustain at the moment for the simple fact there isn't much you can do with it. My main is a Redguard stamplar. Let's say I want to use VO, Gold Food, and an infused stamina glyph on an infused bow. GREAT, sustain out the ass and never drop below 90% - but what can I do with it? Roll dodge & sprint more when it's unnecessary? No thanks especially when I can just roll Khajiit and do the same thing with higher damage.
There's basically nothing I can do with extra sustain, outside of 1 ancient meta set that hasn't seen a lot of activity recently: 2pc Molag Kena.
The first candidate is 2pc Molag Kena. It currently reads (CP 160, Gold): When you deal damage with 2 consecutive Light Attacks you trigger Overkill for 6 seconds, which increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 516 but also increases the cost of your abilities by 20%.
Now this set isn't hard or even detrimental to proc (unless you have a cheap ultimate like incap or sweep where you can inadvertently be unable to cast your ultimate due to the sudden spike in cost), but it is fairly situational. I suggest making it less situational, but more impactful on both your damage and your sustain to allow sustain based builds the opportunity to use gear that best fits them.
REWORK Molag Kena 2pc: When you deal damage with 2 consecutive Light Attacks you trigger Overkill for 7 seconds, which increases your Weapon and Spell damage by 100, Weapon and Spell Critical by 200 and damage to low health (sub 25%) targets by 2% but also increases the cost of your abilities by 5% every second. Overkill starts weak, but ends strong. This would turn the set into an incredibly potent set for sustain races that requires a bit of finesse to maximize since the increased costs towards the end of it's duration make recasting expensive or non-damage skills such as Hail, Caltrops and buff skills very inefficient. Sustain-based races alone can probably not sustain a high uptime with 2pc MK without some more investment into sustain. A set this potent will make regeneration stats and cost reduction far more important relative to stat boosting than it currently is.
Elemental Succession: While you are in combat, you gain a rotating bonus to Flame, Shock, or Frost Damage. The active element changes every 4 seconds. Your attacks dealing damage with the active element gain 515 Spell Damage.
One of the cooler aesthetic sets, but woefully outperformed by just about everything that has damage associated with a 5PC. Rework candidate!
REWORK Elemental Succession 5pc: While you are in combat, you gain a rotating elemental bonus every 4 seconds. Fire provides 12% additional single target elemental damage. Lightning provides an additional 12% elemental AOE damage. Ice provides an additional 4,320k penetration (don't know if you can separate this from spell pen). After all elements have been rotated through, gain all three bonuses for 4 seconds. Casting an elemental skill not within the same element increases the cost by 12%. A little bit different then just stat pumping, and again, requiring a bit of ingenuity to maximize. Each buff will essentially have a 50% uptime over the course of a fight - we've removed magic damage from benefitting from this set to any meaningful degree due to the natural design of the set to boost elemental damage. Whilst this set, with a tri-element build, could avoid cost increases altogether and benefit from it, it would be highly inefficient as compared to a Breton or Argonian who can just power through it. I got inspiration for this from The Division's Alpha Bridge set, the coolest set I've ever seen in any online game ever.
Blooddrinker: Increases the damage you deal with bleed damage over time effects by 20%
This set just sucks anyways and is wildly invalidated by the new Deadly Strikes set.
REWORK Blooddrinker 5pc: Heavy Attacking any enemy (with a weapon) twice within 5 seconds while they are below 50% marks them with a scent of blood and you trigger Sensory Overload for 12 seconds, increasing all skill costs by 20% and halting all stamina gain (no glyphs, passives, regen, constitution, master's resto, heavy attacks). If your stamina drops to 5% or lower once Sensory Overload ends you become Bloodthirsty, regain half of your stamina and increase your damage by 25%. Sensory Overload has a cooldown of 30 seconds. So there are a lot of things going on with this concept. First, I want an exciting set for stam - something that requires more than just hit buttons in rotation and profit. Too low of a stam pool and you sit in Sensory Overload doing absolutely nothing because you're spent in 4 seconds. Too low stamina return and you won't have enough to get through a rotation in Sensory Overload nor will you be able to recover after maximizing damage during Bloodthirsty to be ready for another Sensory Overload dump. Too high with too much sustain and you can't burn it fast enough to trigger Bloodthirsty. The whole weapon thing bolded above excludes WWs, but much like Ele Succession above, very open to changing. Another set inspired by The Division - Lone Star.
These are ultimately just ideas being spitballed to help answer the problem of "HELP! I'm on a sustain race on a sustain heavy class and I have no recourse of how to use this sustain!" that I've been seeing recently since 4.3.2 hit the PTS. The reworks are nothing more than that - concepts. No one is interested in the numbers behind things that don't exist at the moment; instead what I would like the following discussion to look at the general idea of giving sustain heavy builds a method of achieving reasonable DPS numbers by introducing DPS sets that require sustain to operate, or adjusting current sets to provide buffs that can leverage the sustain appropriately. Do you like the idea? Do you hate them? What would you do instead to help answer the issue of oversustaining?
There's basically nothing I can do with extra sustain, outside of 1 ancient meta set that hasn't seen a lot of activity recently: 2pc Molag Kena.
The first candidate is 2pc Molag Kena. It currently reads (CP 160, Gold): When you deal damage with 2 consecutive Light Attacks you trigger Overkill for 6 seconds, which increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 516 but also increases the cost of your abilities by 20%.
Now this set isn't hard or even detrimental to proc (unless you have a cheap ultimate like incap or sweep where you can inadvertently be unable to cast your ultimate due to the sudden spike in cost), but it is fairly situational. I suggest making it less situational, but more impactful on both your damage and your sustain to allow sustain based builds the opportunity to use gear that best fits them.
REWORK Molag Kena 2pc: When you deal damage with 2 consecutive Light Attacks you trigger Overkill for 7 seconds, which increases your Weapon and Spell damage by 100, Weapon and Spell Critical by 200 and damage to low health (sub 25%) targets by 2% but also increases the cost of your abilities by 5% every second. Overkill starts weak, but ends strong. This would turn the set into an incredibly potent set for sustain races that requires a bit of finesse to maximize since the increased costs towards the end of it's duration make recasting expensive or non-damage skills such as Hail, Caltrops and buff skills very inefficient. Sustain-based races alone can probably not sustain a high uptime with 2pc MK without some more investment into sustain. A set this potent will make regeneration stats and cost reduction far more important relative to stat boosting than it currently is.
Elemental Succession: While you are in combat, you gain a rotating bonus to Flame, Shock, or Frost Damage. The active element changes every 4 seconds. Your attacks dealing damage with the active element gain 515 Spell Damage.
One of the cooler aesthetic sets, but woefully outperformed by just about everything that has damage associated with a 5PC. Rework candidate!
REWORK Elemental Succession 5pc: While you are in combat, you gain a rotating elemental bonus every 4 seconds. Fire provides 12% additional single target elemental damage. Lightning provides an additional 12% elemental AOE damage. Ice provides an additional 4,320k penetration (don't know if you can separate this from spell pen). After all elements have been rotated through, gain all three bonuses for 4 seconds. Casting an elemental skill not within the same element increases the cost by 12%. A little bit different then just stat pumping, and again, requiring a bit of ingenuity to maximize. Each buff will essentially have a 50% uptime over the course of a fight - we've removed magic damage from benefitting from this set to any meaningful degree due to the natural design of the set to boost elemental damage. Whilst this set, with a tri-element build, could avoid cost increases altogether and benefit from it, it would be highly inefficient as compared to a Breton or Argonian who can just power through it. I got inspiration for this from The Division's Alpha Bridge set, the coolest set I've ever seen in any online game ever.
Blooddrinker: Increases the damage you deal with bleed damage over time effects by 20%
This set just sucks anyways and is wildly invalidated by the new Deadly Strikes set.
REWORK Blooddrinker 5pc: Heavy Attacking any enemy (with a weapon) twice within 5 seconds while they are below 50% marks them with a scent of blood and you trigger Sensory Overload for 12 seconds, increasing all skill costs by 20% and halting all stamina gain (no glyphs, passives, regen, constitution, master's resto, heavy attacks). If your stamina drops to 5% or lower once Sensory Overload ends you become Bloodthirsty, regain half of your stamina and increase your damage by 25%. Sensory Overload has a cooldown of 30 seconds. So there are a lot of things going on with this concept. First, I want an exciting set for stam - something that requires more than just hit buttons in rotation and profit. Too low of a stam pool and you sit in Sensory Overload doing absolutely nothing because you're spent in 4 seconds. Too low stamina return and you won't have enough to get through a rotation in Sensory Overload nor will you be able to recover after maximizing damage during Bloodthirsty to be ready for another Sensory Overload dump. Too high with too much sustain and you can't burn it fast enough to trigger Bloodthirsty. The whole weapon thing bolded above excludes WWs, but much like Ele Succession above, very open to changing. Another set inspired by The Division - Lone Star.
These are ultimately just ideas being spitballed to help answer the problem of "HELP! I'm on a sustain race on a sustain heavy class and I have no recourse of how to use this sustain!" that I've been seeing recently since 4.3.2 hit the PTS. The reworks are nothing more than that - concepts. No one is interested in the numbers behind things that don't exist at the moment; instead what I would like the following discussion to look at the general idea of giving sustain heavy builds a method of achieving reasonable DPS numbers by introducing DPS sets that require sustain to operate, or adjusting current sets to provide buffs that can leverage the sustain appropriately. Do you like the idea? Do you hate them? What would you do instead to help answer the issue of oversustaining?
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IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Molag Kena will not only be 11% extra cost with Redguard new passive, would really be worth trying to make a PVP build around that if you're a Redguard.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »Molag Kena will not only be 11% extra cost with Redguard new passive, would really be worth trying to make a PVP build around that if you're a Redguard.
It's on my radar at the moment. Hard to test feasibility outside of live though.0331
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isn't the answer "don't build for massive sustain"
Don't complain that you took a sustain set, with a sustain enchant and a sustain race with sustain food, omg I've got too much sustain, what can I do!?!?
The answer is to use the sustain from being redguard to open up more damage options. Start with changing out of VO. Try TFS and Shadow instead of VO and Lover. That will lower your sustain and increase your crit damage with basically the same penetration.
Or you can just change your absorb stam enchant bow to weapon damage and run poison & disease enchants on your weapons.
Or you can save yourself some cash and run blue food instead of gold food AND have higher stats.5 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭isn't the answer "don't build for massive sustain"
Don't complain that you took a sustain set, with a sustain enchant and a sustain race with sustain food, omg I've got too much sustain, what can I do!?!?
The answer is to use the sustain from being redguard to open up more damage options. Start with changing out of VO. Try TFS and Shadow instead of VO and Lover. That will lower your sustain and increase your crit damage with basically the same penetration.
Or you can just change your absorb stam enchant bow to weapon damage and run poison & disease enchants on your weapons.
Or you can save yourself some cash and run blue food instead of gold food AND have higher stats.
You either disagree or missed the point but you weren't clear so I'm not sure where you fall out along there.
I, and almost everyone is aware that the current answer to sustain is to get rid of excess sustain. Assume I already know the how. Can you be a bit more specific as to why that solution is better than what I proposed in regards to build and racial diversity?0331
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »isn't the answer "don't build for massive sustain"
Don't complain that you took a sustain set, with a sustain enchant and a sustain race with sustain food, omg I've got too much sustain, what can I do!?!?
The answer is to use the sustain from being redguard to open up more damage options. Start with changing out of VO. Try TFS and Shadow instead of VO and Lover. That will lower your sustain and increase your crit damage with basically the same penetration.
Or you can just change your absorb stam enchant bow to weapon damage and run poison & disease enchants on your weapons.
Or you can save yourself some cash and run blue food instead of gold food AND have higher stats.
You either disagree or missed the point but you weren't clear so I'm not sure where you fall out along there.
I, and almost everyone is aware that the current answer to sustain is to get rid of excess sustain. Assume I already know the how. Can you be a bit more specific as to why that solution is better than what I proposed in regards to build and racial diversity?
Sorry, I just don't understand the issue. Maybe it's just in the way it's phrased?
You want to be able to build for huge regen and then have sets which can consume large amounts of resources to gain short bursts of increased damage on demand for PVE? Why?
My initial response was just in answer to the bold text:These are ultimately just ideas being spitballed to help answer the problem of "HELP! I'm on a sustain race on a sustain heavy class and I have no recourse of how to use this sustain!" that I've been seeing recently since 4.3.2 hit the PTS.
I don't understand why the answer isn't "ditch some sustain for raw damage".
On a side note, I agree most of those sets are pretty bad and could use some rework, but I don't understand the problem you're trying to address at all. It's like I said on live i'm a redguard with 2k+ stamina regen and my dps sucks but i'm sticking with bone pirate because there should be another set I can use to consume my crazy high stamina regen.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You want to be able to build for huge regen and then have sets which can consume large amounts of resources to gain short bursts of increased damage on demand for PVE? Why?
That would be the general gist, yes. Some sets operate from short attack windows that cannot be sustained through either hard cooldowns or resource expenditures, and almost all of those sets are defunct in PVE with the exception of Molag Kena. I personally find the bursty nature of these builds to be very fly-by-wire damage wise where the question to answer is no longer is "how do I maximize DPS over this fight" but "how do I maximize DPS during this window and during this fight".I don't understand why the answer isn't "ditch some sustain for raw damage".
I acknowledge that that is in fact an answer and more importantly the answer. I am suggesting that it's problematic that it's the only answer especially when there is no logical reason for it to be.On a side note, I agree most of those sets are pretty bad and could use some rework, but I don't understand the problem you're trying to address at all. It's like I said on live i'm a redguard with 2k+ stamina regen and my dps sucks but i'm sticking with bone pirate because there should be another set I can use to consume my crazy high stamina regen.
That would be the goal. It bothers me to a degree that I don't equip VO, Bone Pirate or any sustain set because I can't use the extra sustain. I can't build around either of these sets because on live I can't use their big 5 piece. It's perfectly understandable that a differing opinion would view sustain as a gap that needs to be filled instead of a mountain to build (ala the relationship between sustain and damage). Just trying to gauge differing opinions at the moment to get a better feel as to what the relationship between PVE DPS and sustain could be. Thanks.Edited by usmcjdking on February 6, 2019 5:05AM0331
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@2usmcjdking I get what you're saying, I'm currently running bright boast in PvE on my magsorc because magsorc sustain is so terrible that a full sustain set is worthwhile. When this update drops I'll be race changing to Breton and changing my bright boast for a more DPS focused set0 -
BaylorCorvette✭✭✭✭✭I wouldn't put a whole lot of theory crafting into anything until the racial passives are ironed out more and we have an idea of what is likely to stick when it goes live in a few weeks.Supreme Leader Corvette - StamSorc
Founder of Dominion Special Forces
YouTube - ESO & Automotive Racing
DC Zerg Busting0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think a good general rule of thumb for any set is that if it requires a whole paragraph to describe how it works - it is a pile of mess that will be so situational only three people will ever use it.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BaylorCorvette wrote: »I wouldn't put a whole lot of theory crafting into anything until the racial passives are ironed out more and we have an idea of what is likely to stick when it goes live in a few weeks.
I actually think the racial passives are fine as is. What I think is lacking is the gear selection that supports sustain builds which would obviously be strengthened by racial selection, and as beautifully put by @Tannus15, consumes large amounts of resources very quickly for bursts of damage rather than building for sustained damage.
Mechanical Acuity worked in a similiar manner which is why it was such a fun set to use. If you couldn't really manage the proc then your DPS was about trash, if you could it was amazing.Edited by usmcjdking on February 6, 2019 6:05PM0331
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validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Leave blooddrinker alone please. Its a PVP set, and very nice for people looking for a specific playstyle. As is the way with PVP.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think a good general rule of thumb for any set is that if it requires a whole paragraph to describe how it works - it is a pile of mess that will be so situational only three people will ever use it.
So your feedback is that sets that have conditional burst and proc requirements are too difficult to implement in a useful fashion and therefore not worth the effort?0331
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »I think a good general rule of thumb for any set is that if it requires a whole paragraph to describe how it works - it is a pile of mess that will be so situational only three people will ever use it.
So your feedback is that sets that have conditional burst and proc requirements are too difficult to implement in a useful fashion and therefore not worth the effort?
I'm saying that sets with too many variables are a nightmare to balance and to utilize effectively.0