Wood Elf dodge roll.

simeion

By the way ZOS have been changing passive they have done a great job except with the woodelf. Why are we limiting penetration to the dodge roll. Is ZOS trying to make this a PvP only race? I dont think this is what ZOS want to do. Why is ZOS putting a timer and a limitation on this penetration bonus. No other race is have a limitation tied to another effect. If you cant keep a race buff up 100% time minus a c/d why is it there? Players cannot keep dodge rolling every two seconds to keep a penetration value up.

I agree with the dodge roll speed change. It was far to effective.

Please change the woodelf again so what ever passive you give them can have 100% up time.

Aliyavana

3 second duration isn't really appealing for 1.5k phys and spell pen, why not make it have a constant uptime? In pve, no ones going to bother dodge rolling for that bonus and this makes them a pvp only favored racial. Why not add in a bonus to sprint cost reduction for the duration? In pve stam dps may need to reposition so they don't die. or empower your next 3 casts, etc.

Inklings

simeion wrote: »

By the way ZOS have been changing passive they have done a great job except with the woodelf. Why are we limiting penetration to the dodge roll. Is ZOS trying to make this a PvP only race? I dont think this is what ZOS want to do. Why is ZOS putting a timer and a limitation on this penetration bonus. No other race is have a limitation tied to another effect. If you cant keep a race buff up 100% time minus a c/d why is it there? Players cannot keep dodge rolling every two seconds to keep a penetration value up.

I agree with the dodge roll speed change. It was far to effective.

Please change the woodelf again so what ever passive you give them can have 100% up time.

Youre gonna have to nerf something else to give them that good of a passive.

Toc de Malsvi

Aliyavana wrote: »

agreed, 3 seconds for 1.5k pen is underwhelming, why not make replace it with a sprint cost reduction or an empowering for your next 3 attacks?

The buff appears to start upon initiating the dodge roll so its likely less than 3 seconds for practical use.

GrumpyDuckling

Bosmer are hunters with a keen eye for precision. There should be a flat, unconditional bonus to penetration instead of this really weird conditional one.

It doesn't make sense for their hunter's eye to be more precise AFTER dodging and WHILE moving faster.

simeion

Inklings wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

By the way ZOS have been changing passive they have done a great job except with the woodelf. Why are we limiting penetration to the dodge roll. Is ZOS trying to make this a PvP only race? I dont think this is what ZOS want to do. Why is ZOS putting a timer and a limitation on this penetration bonus. No other race is have a limitation tied to another effect. If you cant keep a race buff up 100% time minus a c/d why is it there? Players cannot keep dodge rolling every two seconds to keep a penetration value up.

I agree with the dodge roll speed change. It was far to effective.

Please change the woodelf again so what ever passive you give them can have 100% up time.

Youre gonna have to nerf something else to give them that good of a passive.

I am fine with that. Just make the races useful in pvp and pve. Have a race passive tied to performing an action like dodge roll is a little underwhelming. There is no use for in in pve and very circumstantial in pvp.

KirinBlaze

Pretty sure the buff starts on dodge roll ACTIVATION not the end of it, so you're missing out on like a second of the buff since you...can't do anything during a dodge roll.

MincVinyl

Another thing currently if they plan to leave the dodgeroll mechanic in is that the buff is applying at the start of dodgeroll. So the 4 second buff loses ~1.5 seconds to the dodgeroll animation. In practice you will most likely only get one or two abilities off depending what they are that will even get the pen applied to it. To compare this to the bow roll passive, the bow passive starts when you stand up, meaning you get a full 4 seconds of movement speed. Test this with a buff tracker and see for yourself, but i really hope zos fixes the bosmer passive to work correctly or else we will have to wait for months for them to fix it.

I do think if the racial passive has a requirement(dodgeroll) and isn't 100% uptime it should be a better buff than that of a 100% uptime passive. Not every class is going to be spamming dodgeroll like everyone thinks. If dodgeroll spammers are the issue then there needs to be changes to how dodge fatigue works so people cant rely on spamming dodgeroll without thought.

roksolana_sowa

Bosmers never were stong but now with those changes this doudge roll staff sound like a joke, comparing to real buffs they done nothing to this rase. Better to give them real stat than this 2 sec proc which u even will not count in ure pve and will not have time to use in pvp.

Sanctum74

Penetration sounds like a great idea, but just like with snare immunity with dodge roll especially in lag you will be lucky to get one skill off not to mention doing a roll dodge is going to telegraph your burst. Hopefully they make some adjustments.

sneakymitchell

1k penetration is good enough without the need to roll dodge.
Lol 3 sec uptime for penetration reminds me of the way of the air set. But the air set has higher uptime compared to 3 secs.

Gray_Raven

"The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood Elves are nimble and quick, making them good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. Their ability to command simple creatures is well-known." -Oblivion Zenimax Studios

BlueRaven

ishotamodel wrote: »

"The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood Elves are nimble and quick, making them good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. Their ability to command simple creatures is well-known." -Oblivion Zenimax Studios

Zos; "Ok, so lets add a roll, that makes sense for life amongst the tree tops. I imagine them rolling all the time on tree branches, what's the worst that can happen?... And thieves... So give them a stealth detect, and take away stealth, that helps in thieving right?... And their ability to command simple creatures.... Lets just ignore the obvious and pretend we never read this."

Ragnaroek93

I love how Woodelves aren't allowed to have a single niche in which they're better than some *** DC races which are meta since 5 years. Not even on some bow/2h build Woodelves are allowed to be better than freaking Orcs or Redguards.

Hey let's nerf two AD races while overbuffing all three DC races. Sooooooo smart.

RavenSworn

Posted this in another thread:

Altmer tanking now has ways to have both stamina and magicka returns from shards Orbs and racials.

Also, welcome back bosmer Rollerblades.

MincVinyl

so running some math based on hundings 5 piece giving 299wd and a 2-4piece giving 129 the 2-4 piece bonus is 43.1% of the 5 piece. if the racial passive is supposed to be balanced on this purpose then the jailbreaker 10% movement speed's 2-4 piece equivalent is a 4.3%(probs up that to 5% like swift) movement speed buff on permanent uptime. which would pair with 1487 phys pen that is the 2-4 piece equivalent for pen. This would balance out with how other races are calculated based on having 2-4 piece bonuses together

If things are kept as a dodgeroll buff zos has to factor in that people must spend stam to get this buff. over and over and over. These 2-4 piece bonuses wont be worth it for any build other than stamblades who already roll off fatigue cooldown. Otherwise any other build will be lacking these buffs, making bosmer a dodgeroll meme build only.

Gray_Raven

"Redguards: Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → ]Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%."

Perhaps Bosmer can get the equivalent of this in their bow abilities?

Hunter’s Eye: Reduce the cost of your Bow Abilities by 10% After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 4 seconds. A slightly higher reduction than Redguards weapon lines, but only applied to Bow.

Although, pvp-wise I can certainly see this being favored for gank blades but not so much so that any previous means of skill/ countermeasure against them would fail.

MincVinyl

ishotamodel, that would force all bosmers to run bow on every build. The point of the race changes is to allow more freedom instead of being forced down one build path.

maybe cost reduction to roll/breakfree/sprint or something but that still kinda points bosmer towards roll dodge spamming.

another thought could be a 5% continuous movement speed buff and a snare reduction by like 22% (based off of rangers gait 5 piece 50% reduction* 0.431 to be balanced as a 2-4 piece bonus) I doubt anyone will complain about having more snare reduction methods in the game *cough cough hint hint pls zos add inclass snare immunity options*. the snare reduction would allow bosmer to maintain its "agile* nature and be a little bit speedy running around. this would also take some players away from spamming roll dodge to get the passive (which nobody likes to play against in pvp, and doesnt fit in with pve)

ive really only played pvp for the past 4 or so years whenever launch was. So i dont really know how many snares are in late game pve that the snare reduction would be worth it, but it would be nice in pve to not always be crawling from point to point when snared especially through immunities.

also im tired of playing orc on every stam class, so ima be really checking in this thread constantly to see what others think.

simeion

MincVinyl wrote: »

ishotamodel, that would force all bosmers to run bow on every build. The point of the race changes is to allow more freedom instead of being forced down one build path.

Yes and the passive should be good in PvP and PvE. The passive should not a cost requirement to proc. The idea of racial passives is 100% up time unless they need a cooldown to balance. I can understand that 1500 pen might be strong without a cooldown, then proc it another way. Right now this is the only passive requiring resources.

Juhasow

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Bosmer are hunters with a keen eye for precision. There should be a flat, unconditional bonus to penetration instead of this really weird conditional one.

It doesn't make sense for their hunter's eye to be more precise AFTER dodging and WHILE moving faster.

So You want bosmer to have 2k stam 258 stam regen and 1,5k penetration at all time ? I thought those racial changes were about balancing the racaes not destroying the balance.

MincVinyl

Juhasow the 1500 pen is equal to a 2-4 piece though, it would be essentially equal to a 129 weapon damage(2-4 piece) buff all the time. this is literally a 2-4 piece buff right now that in combat you need to pay stam for and you waste ~1.5 seconds for. not to mention you need to dodge roll every 2.5 seconds to keep this buff up with how it applies right now at the begining of the ~1.5 second dodge roll animation.

Toc de Malsvi

I think its best to go for defense/utility movement with the active dodgeroll mechanism instead of offense. I don't think you really need a big stat value here, but 1500 spell and physical resist after dodgeroll would be more useful without being overpowered. That or some small snare immunity.

simeion

Juhasow wrote: »

So You want bosmer to have 2k stam 258 stam regen and 1,5k penetration at all time ? I thought those racial changes were about balancing the racaes not destroying the balance.

It is not about having 100% completely. It is about passives not costing resources also. Not all passives should have a 100% up time that is why they have cooldowns. Bosmer is the only race that is requiring resources (3,654 stam)to get a bonus. If you want to keep the bonus up you take a global cooldown away and 33% more stam for each dodge roll. I like the idea of giving a race penetration but not under these circumstances. Also the passive leans heavy into the PvP play style. Racial passives should not lean towards PvP and PvE.

Juhasow

MincVinyl wrote: »

Juhasow the 1500 pen is equal to a 2-4 piece though, it would be essentially equal to a 129 weapon damage(2-4 piece) buff all the time. this is literally a 2-4 piece buff right now that in combat you need to pay stam for and you waste ~1.5 seconds for. not to mention you need to dodge roll every 2.5 seconds to keep this buff up with how it applies right now at the begining of the ~1.5 second dodge roll animation.

Fact that penetration can be calculated as equivalent of some different stat doesnt change the fact it'll be broken when it'll be 100% of a time as a flat value. Wood elf wood become unquestionable number 1 race for PvE stam DDs.

Gray_Raven

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think its best to go for defense/utility movement with the active dodgeroll mechanism instead of offense. I don't think you really need a big stat value here, but 1500 spell and physical resist after dodgeroll would be more useful without being overpowered. That or some small snare immunity.

This with Eternal Hunt would be interesting. Probably making them the best escape artists(Kite build perhaps). A bit of a niche playstyle in pvp, but also a useful passive alone in pve. But yes, the whole dodge roll thing is a little strange in itself.

simeion

Juhasow wrote: »

Fact that penetration can be calculated as equivalent of some different stat doesnt change the fact it'll be broken when it'll be 100% of a time as a flat value. Wood elf wood become unquestionable number 1 race for PvE stam DDs.

The amount is based off other 2-4 pieces in the game and that is how ZOS and the infinite wisdom thinks it should be done. Below is a segment out of ZOS saying they want all race passives be held to a certain value. They are trying to give each race the equivalent of 6.5 2-4 pieces of gear. Is this the perfect way to balance....time will tell.

Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
When we’re balancing numerical bonuses, this is our general procedure with the values you see. The system works by looking at the total power a bonus provides and comparing it to a bonus from a 2-4 item set. For example, if we have 2000 Stamina, we would compare that to a 2 piece value of Stamina, which is 1096. The final result would be 2000/1096 = 1.82 set bonus efficiency. We did this for each bonus a race provides so they would all be roughly equal in the power they provide.
We decided to find a healthy standard for total racial power provided and used that budget (roughly 6.5 set bonuses) for the power that each passive would grant. We used the previous version of Redguard and Altmer as our target goal. Note that some of our hybrid races will be a slightly higher value, since their power is divided. Most of the races received buffs to reach this figure.

MincVinyl

anyone calculate what bosmer would have without the dodgeroll passive currently so we could see what we could even add to get that 6.5 2-4 piece bonuses?

Tasear

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Bosmer are hunters with a keen eye for precision. There should be a flat, unconditional bonus to penetration instead of this really weird conditional one.

It doesn't make sense for their hunter's eye to be more precise AFTER dodging and WHILE moving faster.

Indeed...how did this change make sense? @Alcast

simeion

Lets see:
2000 stam is: 1.82
258 regen is: 2.00
Poison rest: 1.00
Roll/Pen: 1.50

---

6.32

This is a rough cost estimate because I dont know what the value of the roll/pen should be. I calculated it at 1.5. 1 for the 1 piece pen and 0.5 for the dodge roll speed. You still have a negative of the roll/pen costing resources and not having a 100% uptime. Because of this cost and uptime is should be less in my opinion.

Juhasow

simeion wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

So You want bosmer to have 2k stam 258 stam regen and 1,5k penetration at all time ? I thought those racial changes were about balancing the racaes not destroying the balance.

It is not about having 100% completely. It is about passives not costing resources also. Not all passives should have a 100% up time that is why they have cooldowns. Bosmer is the only race that is requiring resources (3,654 stam)to get a bonus. If you want to keep the bonus up you take a global cooldown away and 33% more stam for each dodge roll. I like the idea of giving a race penetration but not under these circumstances. Also the passive leans heavy into the PvP play style. Racial passives should not lean towards PvP and PvE.

Actually redguard , altmer and imperial are also races that requires to spend resources to get bonus. Weapon abilities or block/bash cost reduction requires to use those things 1st to get the bonus. Getting back resoucre while using class ability requires to use class ability at 1st to get the bonus. As for global cooldown dodge roll is not sharing it with abilities so You can dodge roll between abilities easily unless You're talking about some different global cooldown here. As for penetration itself I dont think it needs adjustment but redesigning it into something else maybe 1,5k resistances. In any case wood elf already is in pretty good spot , maybe not perfect but too good to give decent buff with 100% uptime or easy acces to it.

MincVinyl

also remember you are not currently getting the full 4 seconds like it says since it starts before the roll animation so it is even less valuable.

roll dodge use doesnt compare to using a class ability at all though, rolling takes way more time to cast than an ability alone, causing you to not do damage during this time interval and lose stam due to the cost. Anyways i feel zos should not be catering to roll spam playstyles to make use of the race.