Support gifting Crown Items / Subs / Chapters

richo262

ZOS has stated they consider trading gold for Crown items as legitimate as it is in-game to in-game. However it would be nice if they properly support it.

Such as, Player A wants gold, Player B wants Crown Item
Player A and B engage in a trade window
Player A can now browse the Crown Store and place an item (not yet purchased) in the window
Player B can place the gold in the trade window
Player A and B both confirm.
Player A makes the purchase and Gifts to Player B, Player B sends gold all at the same time.

On-top of this, it would be nice to have a system where Player A can purchase a 6 Month (non-recurring) Sub and Chapters to also trade to Player B, where instead of Player A using crowns, they use fiat money.

Billdor

No this sounds awful.

richo262

Billdor wrote: »

No this sounds awful.

Nice contribution. So, it sounds awful to have a similar approach to how we securely trade game items, for trading crown item? Does the standard trading window repulse you or something? Where did the trading window touch you?

xxthir13enxx

It would be nice...
But... ZOS chose their wording very carefully there...the fact they called it a Gift removed their responsibility...a gift is a 1 way exchange...given freely of your own choice. from 1 person to another.
ZOS merely stated they would not Punish those who choose to Sell their Gifts as it still technically violates the ToS.

Billdor

richo262 wrote: »

Billdor wrote: »

No this sounds awful.

Nice contribution. So, it sounds awful to have a similar approach to how we securely trade game items, for trading crown item? Does the standard trading window repulse you or something? Where did the trading window touch you?

Trading gold for crowns is a mutual trust agreement which gives a sense of opportunity and community. Just because someone disagrees with your idea doesn't make their opinion invalid, grow up.

richo262

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

It would be nice...
But... ZOS chose their wording very carefully there...the fact they called it a Gift removed their responsibility...a gift is a 1 way exchange...given freely of your own choice. from 1 person to another.
ZOS merely stated they would not Punish those who choose to Sell their Gifts as it still technically violates the ToS.

Interesting position, and I agree with the technical term of Gift.

However, I'd say ZOS is doing more than 'turning a blind eye', ZOS is encouraging it given their recent 'gift X crowns per month for a free pet', they know full well that the majority of the gifts have gold coming back to the gifter.

I'm pretty sure I saw a Gina post where she stated that in-game to in-game transfers are fine, it is just in-game to real $$ they have an issue with. I myself got stung in a trade once, and ZOS didn't say, 'you shouldn't do that', they just gave me my gold back.

All my position is, is to add a degree of security to facilitate the trade, and on top of that, if they allow the purchasing of 6 month subs / chapters in-game that would remove any urge the average player may have to sell gold (if their only intention was to sell enough to purchase a sub / chapter) and keep it all in-game. ZOS still taking their deserved $$ as at least 1 party is paying with fiat.

It would also severely damage the gold bot market. Think about it, the gold bot market only exists because people are prepared to pay $$ for gold. If those that were prepared to pay $$ for gold could do it in-game and not transfer $$, but a Chapter or a Sub, ZOS can do huge damage to the botters business model as those prepared to pay $$ for gold would opt to do it within the game in a safe exchange environment rather than some dodgey site.

richo262

Billdor wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Billdor wrote: »

No this sounds awful.

Nice contribution. So, it sounds awful to have a similar approach to how we securely trade game items, for trading crown item? Does the standard trading window repulse you or something? Where did the trading window touch you?

Trading gold for crowns is a mutual trust agreement which gives a sense of opportunity and community. Just because someone disagrees with your idea doesn't make their opinion invalid, grow up.

I would say that purely in-game items have more of a reason to be 'mutual trust' rather than crowns, which is often purchased with real money. Being stung with in game gold or mats is a lesson, being stung with real money is a crime.

bluebird

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

It would be nice...
But... ZOS chose their wording very carefully there...the fact they called it a Gift removed their responsibility...a gift is a 1 way exchange...given freely of your own choice. from 1 person to another.
ZOS merely stated they would not Punish those who choose to Sell their Gifts as it still technically violates the ToS.

I assume it's a typo, since gift to gold exchange does not technically violate the ToS. Trading ingame currencies is allowed, and crown gifting is exchanging ingame gold pixels for ingame cosmetic pixels, and it's the same as ingame gold for ingame cloth, ingame gold for ingame jewelry, etc. Only the trading of real world currency for ingame resources like account sellers and gold farmers are violations. Gina and others (iirc) have confirmed it's OK

However I agree that the Gifting system is a way to avoid responsibility. They know that people will use that to trade, they just chose not to implement a secure trading system like currency exchange tabs on guild traders or some special token redemption system like other games do (for some reason, even though those would be much better and have worked well for those other games). I don't understand why it's better to get constant scam complaint tickets than to create a secure system that would increase player confidence and increase ZOS's crown sales overall, but who knows Maybe there are some technical limitations that make OP's and my ideas impossible, I don't know, but I certainly agree that the gifting system could use some improvement.

richo262

.

Billdor

richo262 wrote: »

Billdor wrote: »

No this sounds awful.

Nice contribution. So, it sounds awful to have a similar approach to how we securely trade game items, for trading crown item? Does the standard trading window repulse you or something? Where did the trading window touch you?

Trading gold for crowns is a mutual trust agreement which gives a sense of opportunity and community. Just because someone disagrees with your idea doesn't make their opinion invalid, grow up.

richo262 wrote: »

Billdor wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Billdor wrote: »

No this sounds awful.

Nice contribution. So, it sounds awful to have a similar approach to how we securely trade game items, for trading crown item? Does the standard trading window repulse you or something? Where did the trading window touch you?

Trading gold for crowns is a mutual trust agreement which gives a sense of opportunity and community. Just because someone disagrees with your idea doesn't make their opinion invalid, grow up.

I would say that purely in-game items have more of a reason to be 'mutual trust' rather than crowns, which is often purchased with real money. Being stung with in game gold or mats is a lesson, being stung with real money is a crime.

Then I guess you have not read the ToS/EULA of most online games where the money you use to purchase in-game items is actually paying for a license to use them. ZoS doesn't directly support the in-game transactions for Gold > Crowns. Its a grey area, just like in WoW where you buy Raid carries for gold.

As a fellow above stated:

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

It would be nice...
But... ZOS chose their wording very carefully there...the fact they called it a Gift removed their responsibility...a gift is a 1 way exchange...given freely of your own choice. from 1 person to another.
ZOS merely stated they would not Punish those who choose to Sell their Gifts as it still technically violates the ToS.

NoTimeToWait

richo262 wrote: »

I would say that purely in-game items have more of a reason to be 'mutual trust' rather than crowns, which is often purchased with real money. Being stung with in game gold or mats is a lesson, being stung with real money is a crime.

You won't be stung as a crown seller if your policy is "buyer's money first". You have multiple choices: price your crowns so that people would agree to pay first, use mutually agreeable broker (a guild master), use crown trading exchange. It's either you take some risks, or lose some profit.

While it would be nice to have such a trading window, it would be nice to see the efforts of ZOS developers directed to more crucial issues.

Seeing how current guild bank gold depositing works, how high latency trading works... I won't enjoy using any kind of in-game exchange interface. Basically not a few years ago, one could completely lose the money he deposited in the guild bank due to reasons unknown. I don't know if it ever was fixed.
Basically, we have issues with bank inventory integrity from time to time, when people lose items from their storage. So, I don't think it is a good idea to add such functionality to the game

Soldier224

richo262 wrote: »

ZOS has stated they consider trading gold for Crown items as legitimate

I am against the gift Feature. The only Idea i would support is that the gift feature will be removed. Nobody need that to make an other person a gift. In my eyes it is a P2W element. I don´t want to support a boost.

bluebird

@Billdor Source for those interpretations of the ToS? Because here's Gina confirming that it's fine.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417563/moved/p1
'To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited'

ZOS aren't ignorant, they know exactly what they created in allowing crown gifting, all OP is asking for is a better and more secure system to do what they already green-lighted.

JKorr

One of my guild masters set up an escrow service.

Person who wants to buy a gift/crowns informs the gm they want to buy item X, and are willing to pay X amount per crown.

Person who wants to sell crowns informs the gm they want to sell X number of crowns, and at what price [or that they will accept the going price whatever it might be].

The gm matches the buyer to the seller.

The gift is bought/sent, and the seller informs the gm. The buyer receives the gift and informs the gm the transaction was completed. The gm sends the gold once the exchange was completed.

If any step isn't completed, of course the transaction isn't either.

No one in the guild has had any problems with doing things this way.

richo262

Soldier224 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

ZOS has stated they consider trading gold for Crown items as legitimate

I am against the gift Feature. The only Idea i would support is that the gift feature will be removed. Nobody need that to make an other person a gift. In my eyes it is a P2W element. I don´t want to support a boost.

Crown store is either content or cosmetics, there is no P2W in it. Unless you are considering that the zone sets in the content are P2W, in which case, ZOS should either release content for free? Or should not make content at all? If you can gift it to yourself without P2W I fail to see how gifting it to another becomes P2W.

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I would say that purely in-game items have more of a reason to be 'mutual trust' rather than crowns, which is often purchased with real money. Being stung with in game gold or mats is a lesson, being stung with real money is a crime.

You won't be stung as a crown seller if your policy is "buyer's money first". You have multiple choices: price your crowns so that people would agree to pay first, use mutually agreeable broker (a guild master), use crown trading exchange. It's either you take some risks, or lose some profit.

While it would be nice to have such a trading window, it would be nice to see the efforts of ZOS developers directed to more crucial issues.

I agree, caution should be taken by the person using fiat / crown. Although, a healthy market also requires confidence on both sides.

richo262

Billdor wrote: »

Then I guess you have not read the ToS/EULA of most online games where the money you use to purchase in-game items is actually paying for a license to use them. ZoS doesn't directly support the in-game transactions for Gold > Crowns. Its a grey area, just like in WoW where you buy Raid carries for gold.

What part of the ToS/EULA are you referring to?

Katahdin

I would prefer a system like the trade window for crown store items for gold exchanges to cut down on the potential for getting scammed.

I've traded a few crowns only with fellow guild members and yes I always use the "send me the gold first" policy. But it would be nice to do it all and once in a trade window

I do not agree with the ESO+ subs for gold though. That should remain as is.

richo262

Katahdin wrote: »

I would prefer a system like the trade window for crown store items for gold exchanges to cut down on the potential for getting scammed.

I've traded a few crowns only with fellow guild members and yes I always use the "send me the gold first" policy. But it would be nice to do it all and once in a trade window

I do not agree with the ESO+ subs for gold though. That should remain as is.

I didn't consider ESO+ subs for gold at first, just Chapters, but then I figured, if they are both paid for with one player paying $$ for another players gold, it makes no difference. Obviously the Sub cannot be recurring. ZOS still gets the $$, whether it was paid by Player A or Player B makes little difference to ZOS.

I think one of the strongest reasons for this is the damage it would do to the gold bot farmers that sell the gold for fiat outside of the game. If all people willing to pay $$ for gold were directed to an in game system, where they purchase Subs / Chapters for other players in exchange for gold it would put the gold farmers out of business and people that are prepared to pay fiat for $$ would much rather do it in-game that off-game on a dodgy website. Furthermore, ZOS gets the $$, not the website. If Player A is prepared to pay $$ for gold and Player B is prepared to spend gold for a Chapter, all parties, including ZOS win, the gold farmer is then cut out of the equation as the demand for their services would dry up.

bluebird

Katahdin wrote: »

I would prefer a system like the trade window for crown store items for gold exchanges to cut down on the potential for getting scammed.

I've traded a few crowns only with fellow guild members and yes I always use the "send me the gold first" policy. But it would be nice to do it all and once in a trade window

I do not agree with the ESO+ subs for gold though. That should remain as is.

There is a case to be made for subs for gold, the way WoW handled it:
- Player 1 buys a Token, which costs more than 1 month sub.
- Player 2 buys the Token from Player 1 for gold, and can redeem it for 1 month sub.
- Everyone wins, and the game company got more money than they would've got from a regular subscriber.

richo262

bluebird wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I would prefer a system like the trade window for crown store items for gold exchanges to cut down on the potential for getting scammed.

I've traded a few crowns only with fellow guild members and yes I always use the "send me the gold first" policy. But it would be nice to do it all and once in a trade window

I do not agree with the ESO+ subs for gold though. That should remain as is.

There is a case to be made for subs for gold, the way WoW handled it:
- Player 1 buys a Token, which costs more than 1 month sub.
- Player 2 buys the Token from Player 1 for gold, and can redeem it for 1 month sub.
- Everyone wins, and the game company got more money than they would've got from a regular subscriber.

^ This.

If they price it more or the same as a standard sub is fine by me, ideally price it at a point that is a same or better ratio than the gold farmers to knock them out.

spartaxoxo

Seems like they should do it like the COD system instead, claiming the item removes the coin from your inventory.

richo262

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seems like they should do it like the COD system instead, claiming the item removes the coin from your inventory.

The only problem with that is, what if Player A purchases it and sends it COD to Player B, and Player B doesn't claim it, does ZOS refund Player A?

The reason for the trade window is it allows for a 'tentative purchase' where Player A doesn't completely commit to the purchase until Player B adds their gold and confirms. That is the moment where the Credit Card / Paypal will activate on Player A's end and should no issue be found, the purchase is confirmed and the trade is made.

Alternatively, or additionally, have the Sub / Chapter a Token that can be listed on the guild stores. Where Player A knows full well that the token may not sell.

Billdor

bluebird wrote: »

@Billdor Source for those interpretations of the ToS? Because here's Gina confirming that it's fine.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417563/moved/p1
'To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited'

ZOS aren't ignorant, they know exactly what they created in allowing crown gifting, all OP is asking for is a better and more secure system to do what they already green-lighted.

Allowed and supported are two different things take it with a pinch of salt.

richo262

That is the purpose of this thread, to shift it from allowed to supported.

Soldier224

richo262 wrote: »

Crown store is either content or cosmetics, there is no P2W in it. Unless you are considering that the zone sets in the content are P2W, in which case, ZOS should either release content for free? Or should not make content at all? If you can gift it to yourself without P2W I fail to see how gifting it to another becomes P2W.

It is allowed to give an other Person gold for an Crownstore Item. So you can buy with real Money an Crownstore Item und sell it for Gold ingame. With Gold you can buy Sets and many rare things in ESO. That is P2W.

Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> gold -> Set =P2W
Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> gold -> to be Pulled through Raids =P2W
Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> to be Pulledl through Raids =P2W

-> = sell it for

I think it is not the goal of ZOS that a Player can do that or that players do that. But they have this allowed. And that is bad.

Katahdin

Soldier224 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

Crown store is either content or cosmetics, there is no P2W in it. Unless you are considering that the zone sets in the content are P2W, in which case, ZOS should either release content for free? Or should not make content at all? If you can gift it to yourself without P2W I fail to see how gifting it to another becomes P2W.

It is allowed to give an other Person gold for an Crownstore Item. So you can buy with real Money an Crownstore Item und sell it for Gold ingame. With Gold you can buy Sets and many rare things in ESO. That is P2W.

Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> gold -> Set -> P2W
Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> gold -> to be Pulled through Raids -> P2W
Real Money -> Crownstoreitem -> to be Pulledl through Raids -> P2W

-> = sell it for

You don't need to sell crown store items to get enough gold for rare items or pay for runs.

There are people that had 100s of millions of gold without ever selling a crown.

ZoS has said selling runs is legit. So what if they paid for a run to get that skin? How does that in any way hurt you or me or anyone else?

Answer: it doesnt. Getting a skin is not winning the game

Soldier224

Katahdin wrote: »

You don't need to sell crown store items to get enough gold for rare items or pay for runs.

There are people that had 100s of millions of gold without ever selling a crown.

ZoS has said selling runs is legit. So what if they paid for a run to get that skin? How does that in any way hurt you or me or anyone else?

1. It devalue my benefits. When I have long farmed for an Item and i´m proud that i have the item get and then hearing that another person have buy it for real Money without doing anything then it diminishes my success.

2. Two Players fresh on level 50. One Player buy his equip with gold that he have buy with real money. The other Player has not enough money for buying gold. Both meet each other on the Battleground. Who will have an advantage?

3. Many people have many gold. This gold was defunct. Now when all players want to buy with Gold Crownitems it come back in the Economic cycle. That would messes up the market.

4. When Point 3 would be the reality. It gives an inflation. For normal gamers many items would less and less affordable when they dont buy Gold too.

Katahdin

Soldier224 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

You don't need to sell crown store items to get enough gold for rare items or pay for runs.

There are people that had 100s of millions of gold without ever selling a crown.

ZoS has said selling runs is legit. So what if they paid for a run to get that skin? How does that in any way hurt you or me or anyone else?

1. It devalue my benefits. When I have long farmed for an Item and i´m proud that i have the item get and then hearing that another person have buy it for real Money without doing anything then it diminishes my success.

translation: I won't be the special snowflake I want to be. Sorry this is an MMO, you're no different than anyone else

2. Two Players fresh on level 50. One Player buy his equip with gold that he have buy with real money. The other Player has not enough money for buying gold. Both meet each other on the Battleground. Who will have an advantage?

again, you do not need to buy gold or sell crowns to have lots of gold. There are people in game that have millions of gold by farming like madmen and selling drops or buying low off traders and selling higher.
You can buy whatever you want with just a little work in game without buying from gold sellers or selling crowns.

Skill and combat knowledge will be the biggest factor between 2 players on the battle field.

3. Many people have many gold. This gold was defunct. Now when all players want to buy with Gold Crownitems it come back in the Economic cycle. That would messes up the market.

crown items can not be resold and other than motifs can not be found in game. Other than motif market, the economy is not effected. It keeps the motif market in check so that farmers can't charge millions of gold for 1 page of the dungeon dlc motifs or Welkynar motif. I would argue that having those motif drop like water from the anniversary event did more to crash the motif market than being able to trade crowns for gold did and no one but the motif farmers are complaining about that

4. When Point 3 would be the reality. It gives an inflation. For normal gamers many items would less and less affordable when they dont buy Gold too.

see my response to point 3 again. Most crown items can not be resold. Those that can (motifs) keep prices down not up


You are all hung up on people buying gold. No one has to buy gold to do any of the things you mention. It is easy to get gold by just playing the game.

As far as gold sellers, there were lots of them when the game launched. You would see them advertise in every map.
I have not seen one in years.

I've spent 26 millon in gold buying houses. All of that gold was earned in game by farming things to sell on traders and stealing items from npcs and fencing them, not from selling crowns or buying gold from gold sellers

Soldier224

Katahdin wrote: »

...

Sorry but attack me without arguments change not my opinion.

When it is easy to farm Million of gold, nobody would buy gold. But some do that.

Katahdin

Soldier224 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

...

Sorry but attack me without arguments change not my opinion.

When it is easy to farm Million of gold, nobody would buy gold. But some do that.

Some might but it is not the huge problem you make it out to be. Those people either are too lazy or have more money than time.

Farming gold IS easy but it does take some
Effort and focus to do it .

I play 3-4 hours a day.
I've spent 26 millon in gold buying houses.
I have millions in my bank now.

All of that gold was earned in game by farming things to sell on traders and stealing items from npcs and fencing them, not from selling crowns or buying gold from gold sellers.

I am small potatos compared to people with 100s of millions of gold they earned by farming or flipping items, not buy buying from gold sellers or selling crowns

Eliminating crowns for gold transactions will do nothing to stop people from buying runs for gear or skins

Soldier224

Katahdin wrote: »

...

Some buy gold. And some have Millions of Gold. Both are minorities. You close yourself to others. I know many players which have not so many gold, because they don´t have the time to farming or patience for save up.

The danger is there, that more and more players will buy gold with real money. Because it is allowed. They have nothing to worry about. Maybe at this time, it is not a big problem. But that it gives the possibility is enough for me to be against this feature.

That i see the diminishes of my success has nothing to do with that i want to be a bad snowflake. It is natural. MMO´s are games where the players measure each other. There are not for nothing leaderboards in PvP. To be a "Snowflake" is part of an MMO. Many players want to create something what they make different than others.