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Scathing Mage - again
Jeezye
✭✭✭✭✭
Discussions about this set have been brought up for at least 4 PTS rounds now, and it still hasn't received any love yet. There was a time it was best in slot, when ground AoE like NB's path and blockade where considered direct attacks and could proc the set, thus providing high uptime. However, since the changes to said abilities, the set has become useless because there's so many more sets that provide way higher uptime with much easier conditions.
Scathing Mage:
I really like the idea of the set and the tight condition tied to it, since there's few skills that actually are considered direct damage in the magicka's aresenal and the 20% chance basically make you proc it every 5th rotation, meaning once in 5 seconds. This does result in an overall uptime of ~50% when doing long parses and playing perfect rotations. However, reality will always be different, especially because you don't use a direct damage attack every GCD, stunns, movement, misses, ...
Nowadays there so many better alternatives, with the new Spell Strategist set beeing the icing on the cake. It literally just requires you to light attack the target! No condition, no cooldown, nothing.
I don't want to shed bad light on these other sets since I think they are quite balanced as is, but I want to strongly advise that the cooldown together with the proc condition of Scathing Mage make the set waay worse than its peers.
Detailed explanation of proc conditioning:
Here's the solution: Remove the Cooldown of Scathing, so it can reproc while active and overwrite its old duration, so there's a chance within the 6 seconds of uptime to refresh it. In an ideal scenario, it will take 5 seconds to proc it again so it does provide 100% uptime, however reality will be more like 60-70% from my personal guess. If the uptime proves to be too high, the ideal step would be to reduces the proc chance down from 20%, which would leave it to be exclusively viable for synergizing builds (see above). I don't recommend to remove the crit condition, since this is the real identity of the set and would result in a "growing juggling" match between its peers.
thx
Edited by Jeezye on February 2, 2019 10:35AM Scathing Mage:
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) When you deal direct Critical Damage, you have a 20% chance to increase your Spell Damage by 516. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.
(3 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) When you deal direct Critical Damage, you have a 20% chance to increase your Spell Damage by 516. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.
I really like the idea of the set and the tight condition tied to it, since there's few skills that actually are considered direct damage in the magicka's aresenal and the 20% chance basically make you proc it every 5th rotation, meaning once in 5 seconds. This does result in an overall uptime of ~50% when doing long parses and playing perfect rotations. However, reality will always be different, especially because you don't use a direct damage attack every GCD, stunns, movement, misses, ...
Nowadays there so many better alternatives, with the new Spell Strategist set beeing the icing on the cake. It literally just requires you to light attack the target! No condition, no cooldown, nothing.
I don't want to shed bad light on these other sets since I think they are quite balanced as is, but I want to strongly advise that the cooldown together with the proc condition of Scathing Mage make the set waay worse than its peers.
Detailed explanation of proc conditioning:
- you need to crit, which will already put you at a 50-60% chance for high crit builds
- this crit then has a 20% chance again to proc the set, multiplying with the other proc chance
- it is only procable with DIRECT damage attacks, meaning autoattacks and spammables like frags, curse, swallow soul, ... meaning to chances per rotation when you actually use said skills. Half the time you use other dots/aoes/healing.
- this leaves you at 0,5*0,2*2= 20% proc chance per rotation where you weave light attacks with said direct damage attacks, proccing it once every 5 seconds in an ideal stuation
- theres very few skills which do synergize with the set, and imo this is exactly the beauty of the set design. The only ones I can think of are force pulse (gives you three instances of direct damage) and sap essence (gives you one instance of damage per target hit). Both skills are not commonly used and would allow more unique "off meta" playstyles.
Here's the solution: Remove the Cooldown of Scathing, so it can reproc while active and overwrite its old duration, so there's a chance within the 6 seconds of uptime to refresh it. In an ideal scenario, it will take 5 seconds to proc it again so it does provide 100% uptime, however reality will be more like 60-70% from my personal guess. If the uptime proves to be too high, the ideal step would be to reduces the proc chance down from 20%, which would leave it to be exclusively viable for synergizing builds (see above). I don't recommend to remove the crit condition, since this is the real identity of the set and would result in a "growing juggling" match between its peers.
thx
8
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really like the idea of the set and the tight condition tied to it, since there's few skills that actually are considered direct damage in the magicka's aresenal and the 20% chance basically make you proc it every 5th rotation, meaning once in 5 seconds. This does result in an overall uptime of ~50% when doing long parses and playing perfect rotations. However, reality will always be different, especially because you don't use a direct damage attack every GCD, stunns, movement, misses, ...
Force pulse has 3 direct dmg hits in 1 GCD, as well as light atks count. Thats 4 direct dmg hits in 1.1 seconds window or so. That's a 59% chance (if you had 100% crit) to proc.To figure out the % chance of something to proc with more than 1 try, flip it to find out the % of it NOT proccing first.
80% chance to NOT proc. 4 direct dmg hits.
0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.4096
Flip it back.
1 - 0.4096 = 0.5904 (59%)
This buffs your own dmg instead of just the target. This is different than Spell Strategist that only effects 1 enemy.
This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
What you suggest would make it way better than Spell Strategist in every scenario imo. Especially with cleave direct dmg.Edited by MashmalloMan on February 2, 2019 9:59AMPC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit3 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭scathing procs off of light attacks as well, what you call "auto attacks", not sure why you call them that, nothing auto about them.This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
Yes please. Even with 74% crit on my magblade, the current proc chance is only 15%.2 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »This buffs your own dmg instead of just the target. This is different than Spell Strategist that only effects 1 enemy.
This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
What you suggest would make it way better than Spell Strategist in every scenario imo. Especially with cleave direct dmg.
Cleave?! That is a stamina ability, this is a magicka set..
You have to keep in mind it is actualyl really hard to proc the set in the first place.- you need to crit, which will already put you at a 50-60% chance for high crit builds
- this crit then has a 20% chance again to proc the set, multiplying with the other proc chance
- it is only procable with DIRECT damage attacks, meaning autoattacks and spammables like frags, curse, swallow soul, ... meaning to chances per rotation when you actually use said skills. Half the time you use other dots/aoes/healing.
- this leaves you at 0,5*0,2*2= 20% proc chance per rotation where you weave light attacks with said direct damage attacks, proccing it once every 5 seconds in an ideal stuation
- theres very few skills which do synergize with the set, and imo this is exactly the beauty of the set design. The only ones I can think of are force pulse (gives you three instances of direct damage) and sap essence (gives you one instance of damage per target hit). Both skills are not commonly used and would allow more unique "off meta" playstyles.
Edited by Jeezye on February 2, 2019 10:05AM0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »scathing procs off of light attacks as well, what you call "auto attacks", not sure why you call them that, nothing auto about them.
lol yeah coming from other games too where they're called auto attacks
edited 0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am not suggesting I would not want scathing buffed a little, however it is not a bad set. It is just some other choices are a little better. I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
And Spell Strat is best in single target fights. The proced spell damage only affects the target receiving the light attacks (which are not auto attacks as pointed out by LightSpeed).
But heck, I would not mind a reason to dust off my gold scathing mage set for raiding again.3
0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
This destroys the identity of the set encouraging for high crit builds. Rather reduce the Cooldown further and keep the crit condition, or remove the CD completly as I proposed0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »This buffs your own dmg instead of just the target. This is different than Spell Strategist that only effects 1 enemy.
This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
What you suggest would make it way better than Spell Strategist in every scenario imo. Especially with cleave direct dmg.
Cleave?! That is a stamina ability, this is a magicka set..
Cleave, as in another word for aoe. I know "cleave" is for 2h.Marshall1289 wrote: »This buffs your own dmg instead of just the target. This is different than Spell Strategist that only effects 1 enemy.
This is all it needs: 6 second duration, 4 sec cd, 20% chance on direct crit dmg to proc.
What you suggest would make it way better than Spell Strategist in every scenario imo. Especially with cleave direct dmg.- you need to crit, which will already put you at a 50-60% chance for high crit builds
- this crit then has a 20% chance again to proc the set, multiplying with the other proc chance
- it is only procable with DIRECT damage attacks, meaning autoattacks and spammables like frags, curse, swallow soul, ... meaning to chances per rotation when you actually use said skills. Half the time you use other dots/aoes/healing.
- this leaves you at 0,5*0,2*2= 20% proc chance per rotation where you weave light attacks with said direct damage attacks, proccing it once every 5 seconds in an ideal stuation
- theres very few skills which do synergize with the set, and imo this is exactly the beauty of the set design. The only ones I can think of are force pulse (gives you three instances of direct damage) and sap essence (gives you one instance of damage per target hit). Both skills are not commonly used and would allow more unique "off meta" playstyles.
I agreed to some extent. Please see my suggestion, remove the crit proc chance. Keep a 4 sec cd allowing for some overlap. 20% on just direct dmg is very high.
Edited by MashmalloMan on February 2, 2019 10:13AMPC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »scathing procs off of light attacks as well, what you call "auto attacks", not sure why you call them that, nothing auto about them.
lol yeah coming from other games too where they're called auto attacks edited
Well stop it. Auto attack means nothing in this game.. spammables like frags, curse .
Those are not spammables.
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 2, 2019 10:38AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it0 -
vingarmo✭✭✭I would leave proc conditions and proc chances as it is, but buff spell damage close to ravager's weapon damage value (when you deal melee damage, you have a 8% chance to increase your Weapon Damage by 645 for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds) since uptime of both sets very similar (around 50-60%) and they require specific class/setup to run them efficiently.2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would leave proc conditions and proc chances as it is, but buff spell damage close to ravager's weapon damage value (when you deal melee damage, you have a 8% chance to increase your Weapon Damage by 645 for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds) since uptime of both sets very similar (around 50-60%) and they require specific class/setup to run them efficiently.
Yeah that makes more sense actually.. /signedPC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you're not getting good results with this set, it's because you're not building correctly for it!
If you want high uptime on SM, you must:
1) Have high spell crit, ideally 85% or higher.
2) Use Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as your spammable due to the triple chance to proc.
3) Weave light attacks rigorously, because that gives an extra chance to proc.
It's also a good idea to use Infused damage enchants on your main bar staff. More chances to proc SM!
If you do ALL of these things, you will have very close to perfect uptime on SM.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »If you're not getting good results with this set, it's because you're not building correctly for it!
If you want high uptime on SM, you must:
1) Have high spell crit, ideally 85% or higher.
2) Use Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as your spammable due to the triple chance to proc.
3) Weave light attacks rigorously, because that gives an extra chance to proc.
It's also a good idea to use Infused damage enchants on your main bar staff. More chances to proc SM!
If you do ALL of these things, you will have very close to perfect uptime on SM.
I tried spell crit of 88% and force pulse with light attack weaving, uptime was 53%, set needs a buffEdited by Drako_Ei on July 3, 2019 2:37PM4 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭I used use this set back in the days when it proced of anything, tried using after they changed it to direct crit chance, simply was not worth it and forshadowed by newer set, heck even bsw have a higher uptime now with everyone using double fire staves.
Maybe if used scathing mage with mechanical acuity work? I have not tried it and I don't have the will to do so.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Scathing usually puts your Spell Crit high enough that Acuity is not the best option. And the Acuity procs don’t really help Scathing uptime much since it has a long cooldown. Best case for Scathing seems to be combining it with Mother’s Sorrow or False Gods, and using mismatched Spell Crit monster helm and shoulders.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it
This is the case for many sets and intended by design. It is why it offers such high SD when it is up.
You attempt to compare SM to Spell Strategist yet fail to point out it's 5pc only affects the marked target. This is significant because multiple targets are in play in many boss fights that have adds. So your comparison creates a false picture.
You want all the pluses without any negatives. You not only want it buffed but you want it to outperform all sets by a wide margin. Zos would not even consider your suggestion without reducing the SD to something more in line with Julianos at 5 pc.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it
This is the case for many sets and intended by design. It is why it offers such high SD when it is up.
You attempt to compare SM to Spell Strategist yet fail to point out it's 5pc only affects the marked target. This is significant because multiple targets are in play in many boss fights that have adds. So your comparison creates a false picture.
You want all the pluses without any negatives. You not only want it buffed but you want it to outperform all sets by a wide margin. Zos would not even consider your suggestion without reducing the SD to something more in line with Julianos at 5 pc.
That is true. Scathing is a little underpowered currently, but there’s no way it should buffed to full uptime of over 500 Spell Damage. TBH I’d actually love a set that gave around 300 Spell Damage like Julianos, with easy 100% uptime, and carrying over to back bar for up to 6s (similar to Spell Strat or Advancing Yokeda for keeping uptimes without RNG).1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »If you're not getting good results with this set, it's because you're not building correctly for it!
If you want high uptime on SM, you must:
1) Have high spell crit, ideally 85% or higher.
2) Use Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as your spammable due to the triple chance to proc.
3) Weave light attacks rigorously, because that gives an extra chance to proc.
It's also a good idea to use Infused damage enchants on your main bar staff. More chances to proc SM!
If you do ALL of these things, you will have very close to perfect uptime on SM.
I tried spell crit of 88% and force pulse with light attack weaving, uptime was 53%, set needs a buff
Something is very wrong. Your uptime should be near 90%. It's been a while since I've used SM, so I'm going to try it out when I get back from work. Maybe the set is bugged now?
#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Tyrion87✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe scathing would be perfect if they just removed the cooldown so the buff could overwrite itself, pretty much like the veiled heritance. Without the cooldown scathing could be an amazing front bar set. Currently, if scathing is frontbar'ed, most of the time when you go to your backbar you are already without the scathing buff and on cooldown.0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it
This is the case for many sets and intended by design. It is why it offers such high SD when it is up.
You attempt to compare SM to Spell Strategist yet fail to point out it's 5pc only affects the marked target. This is significant because multiple targets are in play in many boss fights that have adds. So your comparison creates a false picture.
You want all the pluses without any negatives. You not only want it buffed but you want it to outperform all sets by a wide margin. Zos would not even consider your suggestion without reducing the SD to something more in line with Julianos at 5 pc.
theres a ton of negatives as its highly uncertain to proc the buff due to its condition. I've mentioned this in the OP, and since this thread is super old and there are many many more important things to fix atm I wouldn't spend more effort into this topic0 -
jypcy✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it
This is the case for many sets and intended by design. It is why it offers such high SD when it is up.
You attempt to compare SM to Spell Strategist yet fail to point out it's 5pc only affects the marked target. This is significant because multiple targets are in play in many boss fights that have adds. So your comparison creates a false picture.
You want all the pluses without any negatives. You not only want it buffed but you want it to outperform all sets by a wide margin. Zos would not even consider your suggestion without reducing the SD to something more in line with Julianos at 5 pc.
That is true. Scathing is a little underpowered currently, but there’s no way it should buffed to full uptime of over 500 Spell Damage. TBH I’d actually love a set that gave around 300 Spell Damage like Julianos, with easy 100% uptime, and carrying over to back bar for up to 6s (similar to Spell Strat or Advancing Yokeda for keeping uptimes without RNG).
Or even turning it into a magicka take on AY that gave you stacks of increased crit for x seconds upon dealing direct damage. As others have pointed out it’s currently not all that different from BSW, so it could be nice to give magicka some more variety.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I do not think it is possible for Zos to introduce new interesting sets and still keep all that has been interesting at one point at the top. It would just be a growing juggling match.
exactly, thats why I think scathing should be exclusively viable and effective with skills that synergize with it, namely force pulse and sap. Curse explosion might be good as well, there are probably a few more
The set is already exclusively viable with direct damage. Viable does not mean BiS, just that it will work well. Heck, it works best with FP as that gives 3 chances for a crit per use.
yes but still you'll have a gap in uptime even if you specifically build for it
This is the case for many sets and intended by design. It is why it offers such high SD when it is up.
You attempt to compare SM to Spell Strategist yet fail to point out it's 5pc only affects the marked target. This is significant because multiple targets are in play in many boss fights that have adds. So your comparison creates a false picture.
You want all the pluses without any negatives. You not only want it buffed but you want it to outperform all sets by a wide margin. Zos would not even consider your suggestion without reducing the SD to something more in line with Julianos at 5 pc.
That is true. Scathing is a little underpowered currently, but there’s no way it should buffed to full uptime of over 500 Spell Damage. TBH I’d actually love a set that gave around 300 Spell Damage like Julianos, with easy 100% uptime, and carrying over to back bar for up to 6s (similar to Spell Strat or Advancing Yokeda for keeping uptimes without RNG).
Or even turning it into a magicka take on AY that gave you stacks of increased crit for x seconds upon dealing direct damage. As others have pointed out it’s currently not all that different from BSW, so it could be nice to give magicka some more variety.
Mag AY would be great. I’d even take a Mag Briarheart as a Scathing tweak. BSW is just too limiting in damage type.Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 7, 2019 2:12AM0