Some slight adjustments (Racial Suggestions)

Silver_Strider

I'll be the 1st to admit going into this PTS that ZOS was going to flub up racials even worse than before in spectacular form only they can do. However, I was surprised to find most of the racials to be fairly well balanced when looked at a broader spectrum with one another that I could find very few flaws with them. Of course, I wouldn't be making this topic if everything was perfect, no matter how close ZOS has made it out to be. As such, I do have some minor adjustments to some of the more problematic racials that still trouble me, either from a balance perspective, lore perspective, or some combination of the 2.

Firstly, Imperials. As I'm sure pretty much everyone has already pointed out, Imperial is in a bad spot. Going from 2nd best Tank race as well as a solid Stamina DPS race to the absolute bottom of both, Imperial is in need of a lot of love in practically every way, especially considering this is a race that is locked behind a paywall that making it this horrid is nothing short of inexcusable. While it does have the largest stat total of all the races, this doesn't save it from mediocrity in the slightest when everything is said and done so I suggest the following adjustment for Imperial to make them more worthwhile.

Toughness: 2k Health ---> Unchanged
Conditioning: 2k Stamina --> Changed into Imperial Mettle: 1k Stamina + Magic
Red Diamond When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%. ---> Restore 300 Health, Stamina and Magic upon activation of a Weapon Ability. 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Block and Bash abilities by 5%

What this change would do is give Imperial an well leveled footing into any role it so desired without being the most powerful race in said role. The split into Max Stamina and Magic is lore friendly as Imperials do have lore as Battle Mages and gives some much needed flexibility to the race as a whole but coupled with a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect, the race goes from being bad at everything to being decent at everything with an extra pension for Tanking to put it in a fairly useful spot overall.

Next up, we have Argonians. While people have complained that Argonians were OP before (I disagree but whatever), that alone didn't justify them receiving nothing but nerfs this patch. Admittedly, the potion passive was fairly overtuned and due for a nerf but coupled with the complete removal of poison resistance+healing received and the small decrease in healing done, the race was overnerfed in all the areas it once excelled at while also hurting its already lack luster DPS numbers. I don't feel some slight adjustment to the race is uncalled for after all that so here's my suggestions for them

Resourceful: 1k Magic. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. ---> 500 Magic + Stamina. Restore 3600 Health, Magic and Stamina when you drink a potion
Argonian Resistance: 1k Health. 2310 Disease Resistance + Disease Status Immunity ----> 750 Health. 2310 Disease Resistance + Disease Status Immunity
Life Mender: 4% Healing Done. ----> 3% Healing Done. Upon being healed, increase Weapon + Spell Damage by 129 for 6 seconds. Just to clarify, this Weapon+Spell Damage applies to the Argonian only, not to people that they heal; We got enough damage boosting from Healers and Tanks as is without a racial passive giving into that mindset as well.

I've always felt that Argonians were probably the most lore unfriendly in terms of their racial passives. In practically every ES game leading up to Skyrim, Argonians have always been gimped in terms of their Health stat in relation to other races, with them merely being able to recover it faster than other races, much like the original Quick to Mend passive hinted too. It never payed any heed to their prowess as Assassins, their mastery of Guerilla Warfare or any of the lore that had been established over the years that I'm honestly tired of it all and felt the need to make these suggestions, at least to help Argonians truly be more than just this race that is always being more and more shoehorned into support roles only. Similar to Imperials, I split their max resources down the middle to help them out on both Stamina and Magic fronts with a situational DPS buff, at the cost of some of their Health and another nerf to their Healing done to try and make these changes as well balanced as possible. While Argonian Tanks might be a bit weaker as a result (its up for debate if the 129 Weapon/Spell damage will help a Tank out much considering their low damage numbers anyways, on top of even fewer total stats but I digress), their Healers shouldn't be largely affected, if at all, by the change while Argonian DPS get some needed buff to their numbers without overshadowing other races in either role.

Onto Nords now. While I do feel that Nord is in a relatively decent spot in terms of Tanks overall, that doesn't mean its not open to some level of criticism. Their racials are admittedly, fairly solid and let them excel more in the Tank role than any other race but I hate that despite these changes, it's still just a Tank race. It's legitimately the hardest race for me to suggest any sort of adjustment to that wouldn't push its performance into OP territory but I'm giving it a shot anyways to that it's not left in the dark either.

Stalwart: 1500 Stamina. When you take damage, gain 5 ultimate. 10 second CD ----> Unchanged
Resist Frost: 1k Health. 2310 Frost Resistance + Chilled Status Immunity. ---> 1500 Health. 2310 Frost Resistance + Chilled Status Immunity
Rugged: 3960 Physical+Spell Resistance ----> 2750 Physical+Spell Resistance. Restore 350 Stamina upon using a Class ability. 5 Second CD.

As I stated, this was probably my hardest suggestions in terms of giving a Race something to branch it out more but I really didn't have much to work with here so bare with me. I wanted to maintain Nords currently great Tanking abilities mostly in take but I had to make some adjustments. By reducing their resistance passive, it allowed for a small stamina restore to be added to them upon using a Class ability. I tried to make up for this nerf to resistance by increasing Nords Health by 500 and while I know that won't make up for over a 1k loss in resistances, it was to try and help out Nord DPS just a bit without breaking the bank. I'm sure some of you may disagree with the adjustment and I'm open to feedback on it since it's not my greatest suggestion at all but one that I felt I needed to try anyways.

That's it for my more large scale adjustment but I do have 1 final nitpick, namely with Bosmer's Hunter's Eye. While I'm totally fine with Khajiit and Bosmer finally getting their own unique passives, this passive just rubs me the wrong way on so many levels that I just had to mention it as well. After the catastrophe that was the Swift Meta, I cannot even begin to rationalize the thought process in giving Woodelves back that power but even worse; This is the very definition of going 1 step forward and 2 steps back. It's illogical, it's idiotic and I can't keep quiet about it. It NEEDS to be changed.

Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds. ----> Ignore the Movement Speed penalty while in Crouch.
Increase the range of your Bow abilities by 2m. Increase your Stealth Detection radius by 3m.

This is a much more lore friendly, balanced and universally useful passive than the current form of the passive. It gives credit to Bosmer's advance skill with the bow, their thieving nature and has uses in both PvP and PvE, whereas the current form is highly restricted in PvE and largely favors PvP.

Edit: If the movement speed adjustment for Hunter's Eye is a bit much, then a speed buff akin to Concealed Weapon would also work.

IronWooshu

How about no on the Nord changes (which are a huge nerf) and just change the ultimate regeneration to in combat rather than when taking damage. That right there completely opens up the class, the 4k resists are awesome, leave them.

As for Imperials behind a paywall so is every other class. I had to buy ESO to play as a Nord so why does Imperial deserve special treatment over every other race behind a paywall?

susmitds

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Sneak speed bonus will be overpowered for Bosmer from the PvP perspective, as there won't be any reason to play any other race for NBs, while becoming somewhat useless for other classes. The 20% speed bonus is a very good one, if you build around it and it also stacks with the bow passive for a total of 50% move speed. You can keep dodging in stealth to be faster while sneaking, than your sprint speed.

I don't understand why everybody want their race to be a BiS DPS race. There will always be the top 5 and the bottom 4. Better to have the tanking specialized on the bottom 4 than with no tanking/support bonuses. Tankier races tend to be better for PvP.

Dracan_Fontom

susmitds wrote: »

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Sneak speed bonus will be overpowered for Bosmer from the PvP perspective, as there won't be any reason to play any other race for NBs, while becoming somewhat useless for other classes. The 20% speed bonus is a very good one, if you build around it and it also stacks with the bow passive for a total of 50% move speed. You can keep dodging in stealth to be faster while sneaking, than your sprint speed.

I don't understand why everybody want their race to be a BiS DPS race. There will always be the top 5 and the bottom 4. Better to have the tanking specialized on the bottom 4 than with no tanking/support bonuses. Tankier races tend to be better for PvP.

Personally, I highly disagree with your thoughts on the Argonian Changes. In order to even get the buff you need to be healed, and yes while most healers will run a hot of sorts, a mere 129 boost in their damage stats is hardly any cause to be overpowered. Look at Altmer for example, they get double the number of spell damage and they are still considered top 3. The Top 2 - Bretons and Khajiits - are unique due to their passives.

A Breton has so much sustain that they are capable of using blue max stat food without any hindrance, while Khajiit's damage is based on RNG procs with crit. In addition to their unique passives that let them excell in their own right, all of the races mentioned have higher magic stat pools that Argonian, with the exception of Khajiit cause do not know their added bonuses off the top of my head. If the change above was to be implemented, then the stats would have a larger increase. Another thing is that the potion passive only works every 45s and for only 3k rss. Bretons get their sustain at all times and Altmer could probably get close to the numbers that Argonians get but again I'm not sure cause I don't know the values and don't really care to calculate the numbers.

As for tanking. Please inform on how extra damage will possibly make them more useful because as of right now the tank and healer's role is to be a dps enabler.

Silver_Strider

susmitds wrote: »

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Sneak speed bonus will be overpowered for Bosmer from the PvP perspective, as there won't be any reason to play any other race for NBs, while becoming somewhat useless for other classes. The 20% speed bonus is a very good one, if you build around it and it also stacks with the bow passive for a total of 50% move speed. You can keep dodging in stealth to be faster while sneaking, than your sprint speed.

I don't understand why everybody want their race to be a BiS DPS race. There will always be the top 5 and the bottom 4. Better to have the tanking specialized on the bottom 4 than with no tanking/support bonuses. Tankier races tend to be better for PvP.

Let's break down this argument.
Going by these numbers a magic Argonian is currently behind a Magic Khajiit by roughly 1k DPS. With the reduced magic from 1k to 500, Argonian is effectively losing ~50 Spell damage which is offset by the 129 Spell Damage for an effective gain of 79 spell damage. If 79 spell damage is all it takes to bridge a 1k DPS difference between Argonians and Khajiit, which on average isn't even the highest DPS spec of the Magic races than maybe you would have a point but let's be realistic here, 79 spell damage wouldn't even elevate Argonian's DPS by 500, let alone 1k DPS and that's just to tie with Magic Khajiit. Now a case might be possible for the stamina side of the spectrum as we're effectively giving Argonian 179 Weapon damage from the combined nature of the 500 Stamina and 129 Weapon Damage on Life Mender, but that's still less weapon damage than the 2k Stamina that Redguards or Woodelves get while having slightly worse stamina sustain numbers as well meaning we won't even break into the top 5 in that area either

Your argument that it would somehow break Argonians is already tenuous at best but let's go a step further. This 129 Weapon/Spell Damage only applies when an Argonian is healed, meaning that unless you play specific classes that heal themselves for using their abilities, you won't have this buff going 100% of the time and on the Stamina spectrum, you'd either need to have Vigor going 24/7 which can be resource intensive or take the lesser used Heal morphs of DW abilities, resulting in lower base DPS that is offset by the passive. Either way, since it's only applying on getting healed so if you aren't getting damaged, you aren't getting much in terms of this passive. So in the absolute best case scenario, Argonian would STILL be the weakest Magic DPS race of them all while also being one of the weaker Stamina DPS races. The only real argument to be had is on the PvP side of the game where the burst resources will be helpful but let's look at what Argonians have lost; 250 Health, all 5% of healing received, 2% healing done, Poison Status immunity and 1000 tri resources from the potion passive. The argument is now devoid of all merit because it was the combined power of all those effects that made Argonians a threat in PvP and that's all gone now.

Now, as for the BiS Tank argument, with my suggested changes, that wouldn't be true either. With Argonian now losing 250 health as well as having half the Magic/Stamina of Imperials, Imperials are going to have much higher resources to play with than an Argonian. The new Red Diamond makes the resource difference between Argonians and Imperial 20 extra resource/sec in Argonian's favor, which is hardly game breaking in the slightest and in the case of Infused Potion Enchanted Jewelry, you're losing even more max resources, i.e. damage just to sustain yourself and let's be real, that sustain doesn't matter if you're even remotely adapt at maintaining yourself, like how every Tank that isn't an Argonian currently is. It's a crutch for Tanking at best and considering that Nords get a nice boost to their group utility in the form of Ultimate regen, I fail to see how Argonians would remain BiS tanks. They'll be good tanks, sure but anyone can be a good tank.

Now that's I've completely destroyed your 1st point, let's move on to Bosmer. Vampirism is a thing. It's a very common thing in PvP because it offers the exact same sneak passive suggestion that I'm giving to Bosmer but that really isn't all there is to Vampire, is it? No, there's Mist form, Undeath, and the regen passives as well, to say nothing of the people that go Vampire just for the sake of RP. However, since you want to argue the validity of PvP, let's go ahead and argue that the current iteration of Hunter's Eye would do nothing but return the Swift Meta that PvP had prior to Murkmire when no one could land a hit because of the wonky hit detection but make that exclusively to Woodelves and make it even WORSE because the 20% speed increase is greater than the 12% nerf to Swift Jewelry so a Woodelf would be absolutely horrible in terms of balance in that regard. Now make them a Vampire Woodelf and you have an even bigger problem because the "broken" suggestion I listened is now in effect as well, making Bosmer the quintessential race for PvP. Not only does their regen passive put them in the absolute best spot to abuse the ever living hell out of Hunter's Eye via dodge builds but coupled with being speedy little vampiric nightmares that become damn near impossible to kill, should you actually get a hit off on them in the 1st place can you TRULY argue that my suggestion is busted? No, you really can't.

Would you like to discuss this further or have I made my point?

Tigerseye

You can't balance racials, in isolation anyway, because they're all chalk and cheese.

Or, chalk, cheese, wood, chicken, banana, plastic, mushroom and aluminium, to give a slightly more accurate (but, still not complicated enough) analogy.

That is, partly, why they were such a stupid idea, in the first place.

In all games.

Not to mention that you also have PVP, as well as PVE, to consider.

So, even if you could, somehow, balance a load of (largely) unrelated things, it is higly unlikely that you could do it for both game modes, simultaneously.

With skills (and cp points), you could (if you chose) give all classes and weapons exactly the same basic options, masked behind fancy words relating to their class's/weapon's flavour.

Therefore, you could (if you chose) balance them.

With racials you can't (or they don't) because, apparently, racial flavour>balance.

Silver_Strider

Tigerseye wrote: »

You can't balance racials, in isolation anyway, because they're all chalk and cheese.
Or, chalk, cheese, wood, chicken, banana, plastic, mushroom and aluminium, to give a slightly more accurate (but, still not complicated enough) analogy.
That is, partly, why they were such a stupid idea, in the first place.
In all games.
Not to mention that you also have PVP, as well as PVE, to consider.
So, even if you could, somehow, balance a load of (largely) unrelated things, it is higly unlikely that you could do it for both game modes, simultaneously.
With skills (and cp points), you could (if you chose) give all classes and weapons exactly the same basic options, masked behind fancy words relating to their class's/weapon's flavour.
Therefore, you could (if you chose) balance them.
With racials you can't (or they don't) because, apparently, racial flavour>balance.

Personally, I agree that the game would be better off without racials but I'm just working with what I have and trying to balance them as closely as possible to minimize their differences while still maintaining some of the "uniqueness" that everyone claims they have.

Lucky28

Orc should get 1000-1500 health and stam, 500 is too low.

Silver_Strider

Lucky28 wrote: »

Orc should get 1000-1500 health and stam, 500 is too low.

A case can be made to improve their Health but their stamina is iffy with the rest of their passives. Right now, Dunmer and Orc have a fairly balanced trade off, with Dunmer having more resources for more burst damage and Orc having more sustained damage. A stamina buff to Orc would put their damage higher and coupled with their sustain, would increase their lead on not only Dunmer but all other Stamina races so I don't see that happening.

SodanTok

Absolutely horrendous bosmer suggestion based on totally wrongly understood problem of what you call swift meta. I am not saying 20% speed isnt strong but its totally uncomparable to anything like 60% passive move speed with 100% uptime on any build in combat.

sionIV

The only race in serious need of changes is the Imperial. They're not just the worst race in the game with these changes, it's also the most boring race in the game.

Silver_Strider

SodanTok wrote: »

Absolutely horrendous bosmer suggestion based on totally wrongly understood problem of what you call swift meta. I am not saying 20% speed isnt strong but its totally uncomparable to anything like 60% passive move speed with 100% uptime on any build in combat.

You're right that mechanically, it's impossible to get 100% now but you wouldn't need to build for 100%. You'd just build a dodge roll build with Bosmer, utilize a bow for Major Expedition to couple Hunter's Eye + Swift Jewelry and you got yourself a damn near unkillable Woodelf that either dodges everything or can't get hit because wonky hit detection that they can abuse until dodge fatigue wears off to continue the process ad nauseam and that's a problem I'm attempting to nip in the bud before it gets out of hand.

phantasmalD

susmitds wrote: »

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Argonian sustain is not that god like on current PTS, it's merely decent. It's 3600 of every resource per potion scoffed which is about equivalent to 160 regen. Sure, it's 160 for every resource but when did you last care about HP and secondary resource regen in PVE? For all intent and purposes it's only a 160 primary resource regen that isn't buffed by normal regen buffs (like for example Minor Endurance).

In comparision Altmer are getting (575/6)*2 = 192 conditional primary resource regen while also having a constant 258 spell power (the latter affected by buffs). And Altmer aren't even the top DPS race (Also, side note: the 258 spell power gives you stronger heals and way more flexible than 4% healing done)

Compare to Orcs who are getting (380/4)*2 = 190 Stam+Hp regen while also having a constant 258 weapon damage.

Argos are def not gonna be BiS for tanks as all they have is suboptimal regen that can only really be fully utilized in PvP.
Having a conditional damage buff would merely even the field.

Kulvar

phantasmalD wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Argonian sustain is not that god like on current PTS, it's merely decent. It's 3600 of every resource per potion scoffed which is about equivalent to 160 regen. Sure, it's 160 for every resource but when did you last care about HP and secondary resource regen in PVE? For all intent and purposes it's only a 160 primary resource regen that isn't buffed by normal regen buffs (like for example Minor Endurance).

In comparision Altmer are getting (575/6)*2 = 192 conditional primary resource regen while also having a constant 258 spell power (the latter affected by buffs). And Altmer aren't even the top DPS race (Also, side note: the 258 spell power gives you stronger heals and way more flexible than 4% healing done)

Compare to Orcs who are getting (380/4)*2 = 190 Stam+Hp regen while also having a constant 258 weapon damage.

Argos are def not gonna be BiS for tanks as all they have is suboptimal regen that can only really be fully utilized in PvP.
Having a conditional damage buff would merely even the field.

Altmer are around +100 magicka/stamina recovery, their racial is not boosted by recovery multipliers.
Orcs are around +100 Stamina/Health recovery for the same reason.

The worst thing with Argonian racial Resourceful is that nowadays you use potion every 47s to refresh the bonus and that's all. Because of the way potions are designed, I would see the effect replaced to last over the duration of the potion (like: Restore 4200 Magicka or Stamina, based on your higher, over 30s when drinking a potion).
Would be PvP nerf, but a PvE up.

phantasmalD

Kulvar wrote: »

[
Altmer are around +100 magicka/stamina recovery, their racial is not boosted by recovery multipliers.
Orcs are around +100 Stamina/Health recovery for the same reason.

How did you arrive to that conclusion?

Regen ticks every two seconds. That's why I said Altmers are getting 192 recovery. 575/6 = 96 resource/SECOND. But as I said, recovery ticks every two seconds so that equals 192 recovery. Same goes for Orcs.
The only thing that makes either of these recoveries smaller is your rotation, aka how often do you use a class or weapon skill.

I find it cute that you rechecked my math for Altmers and Orcs but not Argonians. For the record, 3600/45 = 80/SECOND which equals to 160 recovery (times three cause it's for every resource).

Kulvar

phantasmalD wrote: »

How did you arrive to that conclusion?

Regen ticks every two seconds. That's why I said Altmers are getting 192 recovery. 575/6 = 96 resource/SECOND. But as I said, recovery ticks every two seconds so that equals 192 recovery. Same goes for Orcs.
The only thing that makes either of these recoveries smaller is your rotation, aka how often do you use a class or weapon skill.

I find it cute that you rechecked my math for Altmers and Orcs but not Argonians. For the record, 3600/45 = 80/SECOND which equals to 160 recovery (times three cause it's for every resource).

Just a quick exemple of several bonus to magicka recovery on a Nightblade:
Vampirism +10%
Refreshing Shadows +15%
75 CP Arcanist +14%
Minor Intellect +10%
Major Intellect +20%

So even if 575 * 2 / 6 = 190 magicka restored every 2 seconds, if you convert the value into magicka recovery it must be lowered by the magicka recovery multiplier.
So 190 magicka restored every 2 seconds is similar to 100 magicka recovery.

phantasmalD

Kulvar wrote: »

Just a quick exemple of several bonus to magicka recovery on a Nightblade:
Vampirism +10%
Refreshing Shadows +15%
75 CP Arcanist +14%
Minor Intellect +10%
Major Intellect +20%

So even if 575 * 2 / 6 = 190 magicka restored every 2 seconds, if you convert the value into magicka recovery it must be lowered by the magicka recovery multiplier.
So 190 magicka restored every 2 seconds is similar to 100 magicka recovery.

Hmm, alright, that's a fair point.
However, this point is moot while comparing Argonians to Altmers since Resourceful is also not getting boosted by those numbers, this would only really matter when comparing them with a race that gets actual real recovery bonus.

Iirc regen multipliers are additive so using your bonuses we get 69% boost. 100/169 = 0.591716
Multiplying with this number we would get the equivalent unbuffed regen.
192*0.5917 = 113 regen
160*0.5917 = 94 regen

This makes it easier to compare their sustain to Khajiit or Bosmer but doesn't really change the initial premise that Altmer have better magicka recovery than Argonians. Tho I'm not sure if you were even debating that.

Kulvar

You're right, I was not disagreeing on your comparison Altmer recovery vs Argonian recovery passive. Just pointing that X restored ressource is not equal to the same amount of ressource recovery.

Altmer
575 / 6s = 96 stamina or magicka restored per second

Argonian
3600 / 45s = 80 health, stamina, and magicka restored per second

Argonian with lowered potion cooldown
3600 / 35s = 103 health, stamina, and magicka restored per second

But Argonian racial restore all three pool (if emptied enough) while Almter racial restore only 1 pool over time.
Also, racials are not supposed to be compared on 1 to 1 but as a whole.
A race could have 6 small bonuses while an other will only have 2 or 3 strong bonuses.

The issue Argonian have is that all their racials do not work well together.
• +1000 Max Health
• +1000 Max Magicka
• Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when drinking a potion
• +4% Healing Done
• +2310 Disease resistance
• Immunity to the Diseased status effect

As a Healer you benefit from them all. As a Stam DPS you benefit from only one of them.
I would like Argonian racials would be better tailored around being more versatile, but less impactful in PvP. Which was the main issue with their potion racial. But I'm almost happy with how it is.

Don't get me wrong on one thing : I love racials that aren't just flat bonuses.

A wish I have is to see improvement to "Quick to Mend" by adding the effect "Increase the duration of potion effects by 15s".
High level potion are already permanently active, so it wouldn't provide more bonus in itself.
But the increased duration of the potion effect means room to trigger the Resourceful passive when it's more appropriate. It increase the skill ceiling in PvE.
We could achieve the same result with lower potion cooldown, but I think it's important for it to be there from the beginning.

Priyasekarssk

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I'll be the 1st to admit going into this PTS that ZOS was going to flub up racials even worse than before in spectacular form only they can do. However, I was surprised to find most of the racials to be fairly well balanced when looked at a broader spectrum with one another that I could find very few flaws with them. Of course, I wouldn't be making this topic if everything was perfect, no matter how close ZOS has made it out to be. As such, I do have some minor adjustments to some of the more problematic racials that still trouble me, either from a balance perspective, lore perspective, or some combination of the 2.

Firstly, Imperials. As I'm sure pretty much everyone has already pointed out, Imperial is in a bad spot. Going from 2nd best Tank race as well as a solid Stamina DPS race to the absolute bottom of both, Imperial is in need of a lot of love in practically every way, especially considering this is a race that is locked behind a paywall that making it this horrid is nothing short of inexcusable. While it does have the largest stat total of all the races, this doesn't save it from mediocrity in the slightest when everything is said and done so I suggest the following adjustment for Imperial to make them more worthwhile.

Toughness: 2k Health ---> Unchanged
Conditioning: 2k Stamina --> Changed into Imperial Mettle: 1k Stamina + Magic
Red Diamond When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%. ---> Restore 300 Health, Stamina and Magic upon activation of a Weapon Ability. 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Block and Bash abilities by 5%

What this change would do is give Imperial an well leveled footing into any role it so desired without being the most powerful race in said role. The split into Max Stamina and Magic is lore friendly as Imperials do have lore as Battle Mages and gives some much needed flexibility to the race as a whole but coupled with a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect, the race goes from being bad at everything to being decent at everything with an extra pension for Tanking to put it in a fairly useful spot overall.

Next up, we have Argonians. While people have complained that Argonians were OP before (I disagree but whatever), that alone didn't justify them receiving nothing but nerfs this patch. Admittedly, the potion passive was fairly overtuned and due for a nerf but coupled with the complete removal of poison resistance+healing received and the small decrease in healing done, the race was overnerfed in all the areas it once excelled at while also hurting its already lack luster DPS numbers. I don't feel some slight adjustment to the race is uncalled for after all that so here's my suggestions for them

Resourceful: 1k Magic. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. ---> 500 Magic + Stamina. Restore 3600 Health, Magic and Stamina when you drink a potion
Argonian Resistance: 1k Health. 2310 Disease Resistance + Disease Status Immunity ----> 750 Health. 2310 Disease Resistance + Disease Status Immunity
Life Mender: 4% Healing Done. ----> 3% Healing Done. Upon being healed, increase Weapon + Spell Damage by 129 for 6 seconds. Just to clarify, this Weapon+Spell Damage applies to the Argonian only, not to people that they heal; We got enough damage boosting from Healers and Tanks as is without a racial passive giving into that mindset as well.

I've always felt that Argonians were probably the most lore unfriendly in terms of their racial passives. In practically every ES game leading up to Skyrim, Argonians have always been gimped in terms of their Health stat in relation to other races, with them merely being able to recover it faster than other races, much like the original Quick to Mend passive hinted too. It never payed any heed to their prowess as Assassins, their mastery of Guerilla Warfare or any of the lore that had been established over the years that I'm honestly tired of it all and felt the need to make these suggestions, at least to help Argonians truly be more than just this race that is always being more and more shoehorned into support roles only. Similar to Imperials, I split their max resources down the middle to help them out on both Stamina and Magic fronts with a situational DPS buff, at the cost of some of their Health and another nerf to their Healing done to try and make these changes as well balanced as possible. While Argonian Tanks might be a bit weaker as a result (its up for debate if the 129 Weapon/Spell damage will help a Tank out much considering their low damage numbers anyways, on top of even fewer total stats but I digress), their Healers shouldn't be largely affected, if at all, by the change while Argonian DPS get some needed buff to their numbers without overshadowing other races in either role.

Onto Nords now. While I do feel that Nord is in a relatively decent spot in terms of Tanks overall, that doesn't mean its not open to some level of criticism. Their racials are admittedly, fairly solid and let them excel more in the Tank role than any other race but I hate that despite these changes, it's still just a Tank race. It's legitimately the hardest race for me to suggest any sort of adjustment to that wouldn't push its performance into OP territory but I'm giving it a shot anyways to that it's not left in the dark either.

Stalwart: 1500 Stamina. When you take damage, gain 5 ultimate. 10 second CD ----> Unchanged
Resist Frost: 1k Health. 2310 Frost Resistance + Chilled Status Immunity. ---> 1500 Health. 2310 Frost Resistance + Chilled Status Immunity
Rugged: 3960 Physical+Spell Resistance ----> 2750 Physical+Spell Resistance. Restore 350 Stamina upon using a Class ability. 5 Second CD.

As I stated, this was probably my hardest suggestions in terms of giving a Race something to branch it out more but I really didn't have much to work with here so bare with me. I wanted to maintain Nords currently great Tanking abilities mostly in take but I had to make some adjustments. By reducing their resistance passive, it allowed for a small stamina restore to be added to them upon using a Class ability. I tried to make up for this nerf to resistance by increasing Nords Health by 500 and while I know that won't make up for over a 1k loss in resistances, it was to try and help out Nord DPS just a bit without breaking the bank. I'm sure some of you may disagree with the adjustment and I'm open to feedback on it since it's not my greatest suggestion at all but one that I felt I needed to try anyways.

That's it for my more large scale adjustment but I do have 1 final nitpick, namely with Bosmer's Hunter's Eye. While I'm totally fine with Khajiit and Bosmer finally getting their own unique passives, this passive just rubs me the wrong way on so many levels that I just had to mention it as well. After the catastrophe that was the Swift Meta, I cannot even begin to rationalize the thought process in giving Woodelves back that power but even worse; This is the very definition of going 1 step forward and 2 steps back. It's illogical, it's idiotic and I can't keep quiet about it. It NEEDS to be changed.

Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds. ----> Ignore the Movement Speed penalty while in Crouch.
Increase the range of your Bow abilities by 2m. Increase your Stealth Detection radius by 3m.

This is a much more lore friendly, balanced and universally useful passive than the current form of the passive. It gives credit to Bosmer's advance skill with the bow, their thieving nature and has uses in both PvP and PvE, whereas the current form is highly restricted in PvE and largely favors PvP.

Edit: If the movement speed adjustment for Hunter's Eye is a bit much, then a speed buff akin to Concealed Weapon would also work.

So basically you want everything get to buffed for EP.
Where are your numbers ? Any can come to forums and beg. Argonian is pretty fine based on numbers of set bonuses. Orcs needs some nerf to be inline with other races and Imperial needs buff. Thats it.

nsmurfer

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

So basically you want everything get to buffed for EP.
Where are your numbers ? Any can come to forums and beg. Argonian is pretty fine based on numbers of set bonuses. Orcs needs some nerf to be inline with other races and Imperial needs buff. Thats it.

This. ^^^

actual feedback needs actual data.

HatchetHaro

nsmurfer wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

So basically you want everything get to buffed for EP.
Where are your numbers ? Any can come to forums and beg. Argonian is pretty fine based on numbers of set bonuses. Orcs needs some nerf to be inline with other races and Imperial needs buff. Thats it.

This. ^^^

actual feedback needs actual data.

Then let's talk numbers and actual data.

Basing these racial passives on set bonuses doesn't mean anything other than a misguided sense of "balance" without knowing the mechanics of the game.

Take, for example, Argonians; their potion passive grants 4620 Magicka, Stamina, and Health on live every time you consume a potion, which has a cooldown of 45 seconds but is really about 46 seconds most of the time. That means they have effectively 100 Magicka, Stamina, and Health regen every second.

We begin with that "effectively"; in reality that Argonian regen is lower, because "effectively" only takes into account the effectiveness over an infinite amount of time. If, say, we measure it in a 2-minute timeframe instead, an Argonian would be able to chug two potions, but the last 30 seconds of that timeframe they would be left with no regen; it becomes, over that 2-minute timeframe, effectively 77 Magicka, Stamina, and Health regen every second. Of course, it gets closer to the limit of 100 regen/s the longer the timeframe is, but when it comes to a trial boss like, say, Varlariel, this is the regen you'll be seeing.

But sure, let's say that they have an effective 100 Magicka, Stamina, and Health regen every second; this means they have 200 recovery in every resource. A set bonus is 129 recovery in one resource, so this means that Argonians have 1.55 set bonuses for each resource, which means that the Argonian Resourceful passive is effectively 4.65 set bonuses, right?

Sure!

Except here's the thing: you don't need two out of three of those resources most of the time. In most circumstances, you only need one of them. Most of the time, the only bonus that would be useful to you is only worth 1.55 set bonuses. Even in the rare instance where you would need two of them, such as sometimes while tanking or sometimes in PvP, it is still equivalent to only 3.1 set bonuses for that one potion chug. In my >5600 hours of playing this game (only Argonians) and counting, I very rarely if ever needed the sustain in more than one resource at a time.

Based on numbers of set bonuses, Argonians may be fine, but based on actual usage scenarios, one to two of those bonuses would be underpowered, and the remaining one would just be useless.

If you want data, I have data. Seriously in-depth data. Fact of the matter is that Argonians excelled at utility and nothing more, and with these massive nerfs to their utility they become useless at anything. And I'm not saying that the nerfs were bad, either; I'm perfectly fine with the utility nerfs, but they need something to give them more viability at the damage dealing role, so they'd be at least decent at something without being overpowered.

susmitds wrote: »

Apart from the Imperial suggestions, all of the rest sound broken. Argonians get any damage bonus, they will compete top level with other races for DPS, as their natural sustain will still be great, while still staying a BiS tanking race.

Holy crap, this is honestly the most misguided claim I've read in a long time.

A 129 Weapon and Spell Damage bonus does not even come close to being on the same level as Dunmer, even they have an additional 250 Magicka and 1250 Stamina along with their extra 129 Weapon and Spell Damage compared to Argonians. Giving Argonians just an extra 129 Spell Damage isn't even going to put them anywhere near being competitive for DPS; it just makes them a bit more viable and much less useless.

Right now, on PTS4.3.1, Argonians are about 2.33% more effective than Nords in terms of Magicka DPS, and Dunmer are about 4.68% more effective than Nords. Giving Argonians an extra 129 Spell Damage is only going to bring their effectiveness up to about 3.5% better than Nords, tops, not even counting in the fact that Dunmer also have 250 more base Magicka.

Oh, also, their sustain is just on par with Altmer, and only so in long fights; in shorter fights such as Varlariel, they will miss out in some of that "effective sustain" because the Resourceful passive only happens once every 45 seconds.

susmitds wrote: »

I don't understand why everybody want their race to be a BiS DPS race. There will always be the top 5 and the bottom 4. Better to have the tanking specialized on the bottom 4 than with no tanking/support bonuses. Tankier races tend to be better for PvP.

Once you have been denied entry into certain groups, or even removed from different groups simply due to the fact that you run a non-BiS race, even though you have repeatedly demonstrated yourself to be better than your peers in terms of trial mechanics and DPS performance, you'll understand exactly what the problem is.

Fact of the matter is that the elitism from these end-game communities bleed out. You've got people like Alcast writing guides saying "these are the best races", and this mindset bleeds into the community where racial differences shouldn't even be a matter of concern, such as progression groups. End-game raiders are already kicking people out of groups simply because they run a Khajiit rather than a Redguard stamplar. The racial passives are forcing people to run something that is considered "BiS" rather than letting them run what they like for even the tinest competitive edge, and ultimately it ruins the enjoyment of the game for the many of us who have built an identity on the races we love and are attached to in the Elder Scrolls franchise.