Ruined Bow Skill Bombard = Discrepancy Between Melee Counters and Bow Counters

GrumpyDuckling

Most melee builds have awesome defensive counters against a bow build already built into their class:

Dragonknight - Reflective Scales
Nightblade - Cloak (counters basically every build)
Templar - Eclipse
Warden - Crystalized Shield
Sorcerer - Not much counter

These counters are totally fine. I understand how they work and why they exist. What I don't understand is why a bow build doesn't have the same effectiveness of defensive counters against a melee build. Once a melee enemy gap closes, and snares/roots/stuns, a bow build can dodge roll and/or use Scatter Shot and/or use Bombard to create a little bit of distance, but the melee build can immediately gap close again. There's no way to avoid it unless the player breaks LOS (which every build can do anyway).

Bombard would be a terrific option for counterplay against gap closing/melee enemies, except for the ridiculous condition that it does not immobilize enemies that are snared. This means that melee builds can gap close to their hearts content after they get hit with the first Bombard because Bombard screws itself by applying a snare!

Why should most melee builds counter the bow in a way that makes it almost entirely useless, and with the potential for permanent uptime, but the bow can't have one really effective counter against melee? Fix Bombard by removing the condition that it does not immobilize enemies that are snared.

Bombard

• Fire a burst of arrows in one shot, dealing 557 Physical Damage to enemies in front of you and immobilizing them for 2 seconds. Does not immobilize enemies that are snared.
• Even when enemies can move again, their Movement Speed is reduced by 40% for 6 seconds.
• Also immobilizes enemies hit.

TLDR: See bold

TheRealSniker

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

TheRealSniker

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

@JobooAGS
Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Thats the concept designers went by to balance and set strength sliders on the games combat

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

TheRealSniker

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went by when reading your way through the skills and passives... also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs


And btw you cant tell me DW is for burst cause:
Rending slashes is a damage over time ability
Flurry is a damage over time ability
Lascerate is a damage over time ability
Blade cloak is a damage over time ability
Steel tornado is a pressure based execute ability

While Twohanders have:
Dizzying swing as a burst ability
Onslaught as a burst ulti which ignores resistances
Executioner as a high tooltip execute
Rally as a damage buff

All of those abilites can be comboed together creating a Burst combo

FakeFox

I don't see how eclipse is a specific counter to bows, but hey.

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

TheRealSniker

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

Solariken

First, magsorc has Ball of Lightning and shields, which are awesome counters to all types of projectiles.

Second, I have to disagree with the OP suggestion. I feel like we are in an excellent place with ranged vs melee counterplay right now. The only exception is Dawnbreaker of Smiting which I feel is overperforming due to the huge, untelegraphed, instant burst. Give it back the cast time it used to have (still on the base morph btw) and I'll be a happy camper.

BaylorCorvette

I agree with @TheRealSniker , obviously specific weapon lines are better than others at certain things. Bow is fantastic for opening up / starting the fight and it also provides a nice utility by giving major expedition passively simply by roll dodging which is amazing since it frees up bar space / type of potion. Furthermore Draining Shot is a nice little tool for a CC and a heal. I've started running Bow on my back bar for the past month and a half or so in PvP and it is solid.

In summary, bow gives mobility (major expedition in the form of a passive), a burst heal, a knock back CC and a snare.

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

I did, there is nothing wrong with a viable ranged stam in the game. Every other mmo has one. Funny thing about accusing me about a lack of brain cells, meanwhile you cannot see other weapon skill line's potentials and think each skill line has a single or select few purposes, nor you can think of a fesible arguement against me.

Note, every build has its weaknesses you
cannot take every advantage every skill lime has to offer.

Even with my propsed changes, bow still has a few glaring weaknesses, such as lower weapon damage (therefore smaller heals and damage), and diffcultly with dealing with builds with range specific defences.

TheRealSniker

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

I did, there is nothing wrong with a viable ranged stam in the game. Every other mmo has one. Funny thing about accusing me about a lack of brain cells, meanwhile you cannot see other weapon skill line's potentials and think each skill line has a single or select few purposes, nor you can think of a fesible arguement against me.

Note, every build has its weaknesses you
cannot take every advantage every skill lime has to offer.

Even with my propsed changes, bow still has a few glaring weaknesses, such as lower weapon damage (therefore smaller heals and damage), and diffcultly with dealing with builds with range specific defences.

Ill be running a dual wield / dual wield build next time then and complain to the devs then to give me a burst heal cause I cant survive

Cause that makes sense
Get good and stop playing bow builds, I bet youve been farmed 1000x times over and over on that build already

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

I did, there is nothing wrong with a viable ranged stam in the game. Every other mmo has one. Funny thing about accusing me about a lack of brain cells, meanwhile you cannot see other weapon skill line's potentials and think each skill line has a single or select few purposes, nor you can think of a fesible arguement against me.

Note, every build has its weaknesses you
cannot take every advantage every skill lime has to offer.

Even with my propsed changes, bow still has a few glaring weaknesses, such as lower weapon damage (therefore smaller heals and damage), and diffcultly with dealing with builds with range specific defences.

Ill be running a dual wield / dual wield build next time then and complain to the devs then to give me a burst heal cause I cant survive

Cause that makes sense
Get good and stop playing bow builds, I bet youve been farmed 1000x times over and over on that build already

Nope, Ive been doing the farming much more often than not. Thankfully the psjjic skill line gives a spammable that pairs well with the bow tool kit and can easily avoid using snipe. In fact I posted my build a while back. Plus dw has 3 heals on it. Blood thirst, blood craze and rend/thrive in chaos. I bet if you had more than 2 brain cells you can make a build out of it. In fact, dw/dw will be my next build I will make.

TheRealSniker

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

I did, there is nothing wrong with a viable ranged stam in the game. Every other mmo has one. Funny thing about accusing me about a lack of brain cells, meanwhile you cannot see other weapon skill line's potentials and think each skill line has a single or select few purposes, nor you can think of a fesible arguement against me.

Note, every build has its weaknesses you
cannot take every advantage every skill lime has to offer.

Even with my propsed changes, bow still has a few glaring weaknesses, such as lower weapon damage (therefore smaller heals and damage), and diffcultly with dealing with builds with range specific defences.

Ill be running a dual wield / dual wield build next time then and complain to the devs then to give me a burst heal cause I cant survive

Cause that makes sense
Get good and stop playing bow builds, I bet youve been farmed 1000x times over and over on that build already

Nope, Ive been doing the farming much more often than not. Thankfully the psjjic skill line gives a spammable that pairs well with the bow tool kit and can easily avoid using snipe. In fact I posted my build a while back. Plus dw has 3 heals on it. Blood thirst, blood craze and rend/thrive in chaos. I bet if you had more than 2 brain cells you can make a build out of it. In fact, dw/dw will be my next build I will make.

Well surely then such an outstanding player as you @JobooAGS doesnt have to complain to the devs to buff their non-meta builds

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Eh? Again says who? I can easily say that 2h is a buff bar (rally/fwd momentum), dw is for burst/execute/mobility (shrouded + spin2win quick cloak and passives) and snb for cc and ult regen (reverb, heroic slash) and bow for ranged stam and mobility.

You can easily notice by what pattern the developers went, also, check out old combat guides from the games release

You cant demand buffs for something just to fit your certain agenda, it would break the game because none of you look at the bigger picture of things, this is why nobody listens to the forums
This is why forums have been long forgotten by the devs

If you are referencing old guides back when the game was vastly different from today to make your point, idk what to tell you. Its like referencing old maps to navigate travel in today' world. Not fesiable due to many factors such as borders, roads and landscapes being different.

Also the devs are changing how skills work if you havent noticed, look at sparks and blinding flashes for example

Imo all bow needs is just a proper spammable (snipe isnt one) swapping the places of rapid fire and snipe would be best for the skill line.

@JobooAGS Read my comment again before I have to question your lack of braincells...

I did, there is nothing wrong with a viable ranged stam in the game. Every other mmo has one. Funny thing about accusing me about a lack of brain cells, meanwhile you cannot see other weapon skill line's potentials and think each skill line has a single or select few purposes, nor you can think of a fesible arguement against me.

Note, every build has its weaknesses you
cannot take every advantage every skill lime has to offer.

Even with my propsed changes, bow still has a few glaring weaknesses, such as lower weapon damage (therefore smaller heals and damage), and diffcultly with dealing with builds with range specific defences.

Ill be running a dual wield / dual wield build next time then and complain to the devs then to give me a burst heal cause I cant survive

Cause that makes sense
Get good and stop playing bow builds, I bet youve been farmed 1000x times over and over on that build already

Nope, Ive been doing the farming much more often than not. Thankfully the psjjic skill line gives a spammable that pairs well with the bow tool kit and can easily avoid using snipe. In fact I posted my build a while back. Plus dw has 3 heals on it. Blood thirst, blood craze and rend/thrive in chaos. I bet if you had more than 2 brain cells you can make a build out of it. In fact, dw/dw will be my next build I will make.

Well surely then such an outstanding player as you dont have to complain to the devs to buff their non-meta builds

I only suggested the snipe and rapid fire changes to end the "snipe spammer" epidemic that seems to be plaguing bgs and cyrodill. If zos did nothing further to bow pvp wise (even to a huge extent pve wise) than what is in the natch potes, I would not mind at all.

Toc de Malsvi

Don't agree with the Immobilize change. I think Immobilize is far to prevalent as it is.

That said, Bombard is a bad skill as it stands and really could use a change. There are far too many snares available which negate the value of an Immobilize with a conditional based on snare absence.

GrumpyDuckling

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

"Choose a proper frontbar"

You lost all credibility once you said this.

NBrookus

FakeFox wrote: »

I don't see how eclipse is a specific counter to bows, but hey.

It's a perfect counter to bow users who continue to attack instead of using the get-out-of-CC-free card it is to kite away.

JobooAGS

NBrookus wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I don't see how eclipse is a specific counter to bows, but hey.

It's a perfect counter to bow users who continue to attack instead of using the get-out-of-CC-free card it is to kite away.

I see eclipse as free cc immunity, I love getting eclipsed as Im kiting, just buff during the time mark a target, get better positioning and bam, 6 seconds of free cc immunity and free to engage.

TheRealSniker

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

"Choose a proper frontbar"

You lost all credibility once you said this.

Imagine using a bow as your frontbar weapon so you can be the edgy sniper omegakek

Derra

TheRealSniker wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

And why shouldnt it be? Also, says who?

@JobooAGS
Because the game was designed around a "2bar" system, the bow was designed to be a kiting and combo opening tool, sword and board was designed to be a tank and debuff tool, the twohanders were designed to be a frontbar burst tool and the dual wield was designed to be a frontbar pressure tool

Thats the concept designers went by to balance and set strength sliders on the games combat

Well funny enough 3 out of 4 weapons fail horribly at their alledged intended design

JobooAGS

TheRealSniker wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so
Choose a proper frontbar weapon and play around your classes defensive mechanics

What youre asking for is a WEAPON SKILL LINE to have just as strong defensive mechanics as a CLASS, wtf?

"Choose a proper frontbar"

You lost all credibility once you said this.

Imagine using a bow as your frontbar weapon so you can be the edgy sniper omegakek

Imagine thinking bow front bar = snipe for everyone

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

You compare apples with pares. You mentioned counters against bow by classes and then went on comparing a weapon skill line with a playstyle (?). But in any case. Bow as a skill line does counter melee playstyle. It allows you to have the initiative since you can engage from range, it provides snares and a ranged stun.
What you are asking in this thread is to be able to spam aoe immobilizations. Not to counter any playstyle. So I am sure that most people that play pvp will politely tell you "thank you kind sir but no thank you".
Edit: potato, potato. pare, pear

GrumpyDuckling

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

You compare apples with pares. You mentioned counters against bow by classes and then went on comparing a weapon skill line with a playstyle (?). But in any case. Bow as a skill line does counter melee playstyle. It allows you to have the initiative since you can engage from range, it provides snares and a ranged stun.
What you are asking in this thread is to be able to spam aoe immobilizations. Not to counter any playstyle. So I am sure that most people that play pvp will politely tell you "thank you kind sir but no thank you".

If you want your apples and [pears] (is what I assume you meant) to make sense, then please tell me what skills classes have in their kits to counter repeated gap closings by a melee enemy. A bow is definitely a ranged weapon meant to be used mostly out of melee range -- I'm not going to make that claim about classes.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you say "Bow as a skill line does counter melee playstyle. It allows you to have the initiative since you can engage from range, it provides snares and a ranged stun." Some of this argument just doesn't make sense.

Bow has ONE skill (snipe) that can be cast at a range well outside of gap closing distance. Unless an enemy is attempting a gank, snipe is telegraphed, and really easy to counter. The snare bow skill that you refer to has a range LESS than most gap closers, and snares are near useless against gap closers (the enemy can just keep gap closing). The stun doesn't have any special distance advantages over other ranged stuns that even melee users can equip.

SodanTok

Havent used bombard in some time but I am 90% sure it could root snared targets during even summerset patch. Not even tooltip was referencing it anymore. Was it again secretly returned the same way it secretly disappeared?

Anyway, its trash skill. Awfully expensive and clunky with aiming. The whole skill from base needs to be reworked. Bow doesnt offer enough skills to design one for hard CC and other for softCC.

SodanTok

SodanTok wrote: »

Havent used bombard in some time but I am 90% sure it could root snared targets during even summerset patch. Not even tooltip was referencing it anymore. Was it again secretly returned the same way it secretly disappeared?

Anyway, its trash skill. Awfully expensive and clunky with aiming. The whole skill from base needs to be reworked. Bow doesnt offer enough skills to design one for hard CC and other for softCC.

Yeah took me 10s of trying and 10 minutes of loading screens to confirm bombard doesnt have that 'cant immobile if snared' tooltip rule and properly roots targets that are snared by stuff like caltrops of bombard itself

GrumpyDuckling

SodanTok wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Havent used bombard in some time but I am 90% sure it could root snared targets during even summerset patch. Not even tooltip was referencing it anymore. Was it again secretly returned the same way it secretly disappeared?

Anyway, its trash skill. Awfully expensive and clunky with aiming. The whole skill from base needs to be reworked. Bow doesnt offer enough skills to design one for hard CC and other for softCC.

Yeah took me 10s of trying and 10 minutes of loading screens to confirm bombard doesnt have that 'cant immobile if snared' tooltip rule and properly roots targets that are snared by stuff like caltrops of bombard itself

Wait, seriously? I've been looking at patch notes forever hoping for a revert, and are you suggesting there was a stealth revert that makes the skill the same as it used to be?

Loads up game excitedly. @SodanTok you may have just made my day.

IAVITNI

Solariken wrote: »

First, magsorc has Ball of Lightning and shields, which are awesome counters to all types of projectiles.

Second, I have to disagree with the OP suggestion. I feel like we are in an excellent place with ranged vs melee counterplay right now. The only exception is Dawnbreaker of Smiting which I feel is overperforming due to the huge, untelegraphed, instant burst. Give it back the cast time it used to have (still on the base morph btw) and I'll be a happy camper.

And this is why sorcs hate forums.

Shields are not an awesome counter to all damage. They are outperformed by dodge in any outnumbered scenario. So not "all" damage. They really work no different than vigor except that they ignore defile. But they also unrest affected by block mitigation and can be crit but can't crit. Shields are just like any other defensive mechanic at this point.

Second Ball of Lightning...it only absorbs mag

technohic

There is a good reason that restriction is on bombard. I remember when it wasn't and I can only imagine if bomb groups had that today.

Andele

TheRealSniker wrote: »

A full bow build was never viable or competetive and was never meant to do so

While i agree that defense should stick to S&S and class skills, pure ranged and pure melee builds SHOULD be viable (it would require fixing a lot of light and heavy attack coding, returning attack speed as a proper stat and using hitboxes instead of aoe checks, but it should be done).