Where Are The Stamina Morphs?

Wildberryjack

ZOS, will you please make more class abilities have a stamina morph? Every stamina characters build is the same, bow and duel wield with maybe two class abilities. I want to play a Sorcerer using Sorcerer abilities, but alas, yeah. I want to play a DK using DK abilities, but well, yeah. I want my bar to be full of CLASS abilities so each character plays different, not have the exact same bow and duel wield abilities on each ones bar because that's all there is. Come on ZOS, ugh ugh ugh. Ugh.

Valrien

Or we could just...you know...not

Xvorg

Wildberryjack wrote: »

ZOS, will you please make more class abilities have a stamina morph? Every stamina characters build is the same, bow and duel wield with maybe two class abilities. I want to play a Sorcerer using Sorcerer abilities, but alas, yeah. I want to play a DK using DK abilities, but well, yeah. I want my bar to be full of CLASS abilities so each character plays different, not have the exact same bow and duel wield abilities on each ones bar because that's all there is. Come on ZOS, ugh ugh ugh. Ugh.

Then, what would be the point of weapon skills?

Currently it is pretty balanced, there are similar numbers of stam and magicka skills. If you want to make more class skills stamina based, then you should do the same with stam weapons, giving magicka morphs.

Otherwise you are pigeoholing magicka into even less skills than stamina.

Wildberryjack

Since all abilities start out as magicka we can only get stamina class abilities with a morph. So:
All classes active skills from which to chose: 15
*Dragonknight stamina morphs: 2
*Nightblade stamina morphs: 4
*Sorcerer stamina morphs: 2
*Templar stamina morphs: 3
*Warden stamina morphs: 3

I'm sorry if you don't want to actually play your CLASS abilities but some of us do. I'm sure you would love it if all magicka abilities were weapon with only a few class, right? No? Well neither do stamina players.

VaranisArano

With the exception of Warden, the other classes were not designed with the current magicka/stamina split in mind. Originally, we were expected to all use magicka.

Now, with the end of soft caps and damage scaling from max resources, we have a meta where you go either magicka or stamina for damage dealing.

Problem is, without adding a third morph option (which adds more balance issues) you can't add more stamina options to the existing classes without taking away options from existing magicka builds. Moreoever, stamina builds do have greater flexibility with their weapons than magicka builds do.

In short, it may not be what you want, but it would take a lot of continuing effort for the devs to change. The newer Warden shows how a class designed for magicka AND stamina ought to function.

Xvorg

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Since all abilities start out as magicka we can only get stamina class abilities with a morph. So:
All classes active skills from which to chose: 15
*Dragonknight stamina morphs: 2
*Nightblade stamina morphs: 4
*Sorcerer stamina morphs: 2
*Templar stamina morphs: 3
*Warden stamina morphs: 3

I'm sorry if you don't want to actually play your CLASS abilities but some of us do. I'm sure you would love it if all magicka abilities were weapon with only a few class, right? No? Well neither do stamina players.

DK has more than 2. FoO escalates with magicka or stamina, and 2 of the ultimate morphs are stam based (Take Flight and Corrosive armor). They even have a passive that gives you minor brut on using petrify.
NB has more than 4 stam morphs: Incap, KB, Ambush, Relentess, SA, Leeching strikes and Power extraction, that makes 7 stam based skills
Sorc has Dark conversion, Bound armaments and hurricane
Templar has: Crescent, jabs, Javelin, Potl, and repenteance.
Warden has 4 counting bear.

I think you should do a much better research before coming here to post something.

Xvorg

VaranisArano wrote: »

With the exception of Warden, the other classes were not designed with the current magicka/stamina split in mind. Originally, we were expected to all use magicka.

Now, with the end of soft caps and damage scaling from max resources, we have a meta where you go either magicka or stamina for damage dealing.

Problem is, without adding a third morph option (which adds more balance issues) you can't add more stamina options to the existing classes without taking away options from existing magicka builds. Moreoever, stamina builds do have greater flexibility with their weapons than magicka builds do.

In short, it may not be what you want, but it would take a lot of continuing effort for the devs to change. The newer Warden shows how a class designed for magicka AND stamina ought to function.

Basically this, a 3rd morph would be a nice solution

John_Falstaff

@Xvorg , FoO may scale with stamina, but it costs magicka, and it's not buffed by CPs stamina usually invests in. Ultimates are ultimates, they're stamina- or magicka-agnostic. And mind, 15 is only the number of abilities; sum of base abilities and morphs is 45. Forty-five abilities, and only two of them stamina. OP did his research; you didn't do yours.

SodanTok

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Since all abilities start out as magicka we can only get stamina class abilities with a morph. So:
All classes active skills from which to chose: 15
*Dragonknight stamina morphs: 2
*Nightblade stamina morphs: 4
*Sorcerer stamina morphs: 2
*Templar stamina morphs: 3
*Warden stamina morphs: 3

I'm sorry if you don't want to actually play your CLASS abilities but some of us do. I'm sure you would love it if all magicka abilities were weapon with only a few class, right? No? Well neither do stamina players.

Comparing it like that is honestly just wrong. Tanking is done by spending magicka for utility and stamina on sustaining blocking, running, bashing, breaking free. That means already technically 1/3 of class skills (the tanking skills) have to be magicka or they arent much good for tanks. They would be useful in pvp in some cases but still most stamina pvp players prefer to use magicka on utility (nothing else to use it on rly). Literally same case for healing abilities (again 1/3) minus the 1 ability for self healing on stam every class should have got (unless it costs magicka but is meant for stamina - again and utility skills preferred to cost magicka).

Then you have ultimates that scales with highest and dont cost magicka/stamina. Some are too magicka centric sure, but there are good cases of elemental ultimates being great or even BiS on stamina.

So just counting skills that cost stamina and/or deal physical/poison/disease damage is just plain wrong.
Also it is totally wrong. Since nightblade has like 6 stamina morphs and 5 skills (not counting ultimates) that are usable (and used) on stamina yet you claim they have 4 morphs.

No reason to be so wrong when your point has some value. Some classes could really use 1-2 more stam abilities.

Xvorg

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Xvorg , FoO may scale with stamina, but it costs magicka, and it's not buffed by CPs stamina usually invests in. Ultimates are ultimates, they're stamina- or magicka-agnostic. And mind, 15 is only the number of abilities; sum of base abilities and morphs is 45. Forty-five abilities, and only two of them stamina. OP did his research; you didn't do yours.

Do any magicka based build uses stam ultis besides DBoS?

If we are talking about stam based skills we must include ultis, not including them is a mistake. Most rotations include the ulti to do dmg, in PvE and in PvP.

By the way, any NB, how many magicka skills has access? Class skills 11. Magicka weapon skills, 12. That makes 22 just counting weapon and class skills and considering resto staff.

Stam based skills only in the 4 weapon lines = 24

This has been discussed a lot in the last 3 years and, despite I like the idea of more stam based morphs, it cannot be in such a way in which Magicka loses and stam not only keeps what it has, but also gets extra options.

That's why the 3rd morph is a good solution but ZoS don't like it.

Calboy

When will people realise that stamina toons are weapon classes that excel in utilising the weapon lines while adding a little bit of flavour from their class.

If you want more class stamina morphs maybe just run a magicka toon.

Thorstienn

Calboy wrote: »

When will people realise that stamina toons are weapon classes that excel in utilising the weapon lines while adding a little bit of flavour from their class.

If you want more class stamina morphs maybe just run a magicka toon.

I think they would only realise that, if a new "Weapon Master" class was added, with big red writing saying, this is the stamina weapon guy... the others are Magicke... duh!

John_Falstaff

@Xvorg , if you wanted to classify ultimates not by resource they use (ultimate) but by type of damage done and side effects, then you shouldn't have included FoO into the list of stamina skills. Ultimates scale off the highest one too, but you do classify them into stamina and magicka. So take DK: together with morphs, nine ultimates. Standard - all three flame damage, so magicka. Leap - two stamina, one magicka. Magma armor - two magicka, one stamina. So six magicka, three stamina - still not sure how that's okay.

NB at least has a rounded toolkit - a spammable, an execute, and even a special proc that also can fork into stamina and magicka. DK? Two dots, one of them weak and with clunky hitbox. The rest of the toolkit is magicka; can't even use Earthen Heart passives because sustaining both FoO and Igneous is tricky without investing in magicka regen. And it's not even about efficiency, just stamina struggles for identity - when everyone's using out-of-class skills, gameplay feels way more bland.

Royaji

It's not a big secret that more class skills are magicka than stamina (offset by weapon skills, btw) but it is hilarious how some people try to count pre-morphed skills to make it sound more dramatic.

How often do you guys choose to not morph a skill?

RighteousBacon

It’s a nice thought I guess, maybe one Day it could work. But right now it’s really not a concern. Balance of the current content is more important

John_Falstaff

@Royaji , sometimes. Why not? For some utility skills morph may not worth the skill point. I've been walking with base morph of rapids for a long time before I felt the need for the Retreating ones (I don't generally do PvP).

Also, let's not start it about weapon skills. Upon careful examination, stamina has two actually useful weapon skill lines, unless you're vying for 2H (which is used for a single skill and didn't become any better with DW nerf) or narrow-specialized S&B.

MashmalloMan

It's baffling that people defend an entire mag class's skills when people who use stam classes just want 1-3 more options.

There are tons of morphs that magicka classes haven't touched in years because they under perform, whats the point in leaving that skill morph there to die.

Furthermore, they can get the FoO treatment and cost magicka, but scale off of your own resources. The same can be said about providing magicka morphs or scaling on DW/2h weapons. You could actually give people a reason to use DW again for Mag Melee classes.

Stam NB is the only stam class in a great place for versatility, with Stam Warden close second.

Looking at the sorc classes ults. Why are 5/6 Mag DD related. Stam DD/Tank/Healers get practically nothing here too.

Summon Storm Atro, both lightning dmg. Choice between aoe or single target - combine these, release Air Atro.
Overload, both lightning dmg. Choice between mag regen or range. Regen is too good to pass up, delete.
Negate, magicka dmg. Choice between dmg or healing. Healing morph is lack luster in a lot of games content.

Not only do all these morphs scale with CP a stam class doesn't have enough to invest in, but penetration they may not have due to sets. Saying they scale for your higher resource/dmg/crit isn't enough.

OP and ZOS know that many of the stamina classes lack identity or unique and interesting choices. If you disagree than you haven't read any of the last class rep meetings that highlighted this and ZOS often times agreed and acknowledged those ideas.

The real answer is to add a 3rd morph option to give more to stam DD/tank/healers, not just 1 role. Maybe redesigning CP because the current iteration hurts build diversity. With no cp, ultimates would scale properly, but no a stam DD using a magicka ult misses out on 11% dmg, 3000+ pen and 15%+ crit dmg.

I was actually excited to have more cp because we were getting closer to a day where you could make a choice to invest 1% in to physical dmg or 5% in to spell dmg due to deminishing returns, but they stopped increasing the cap, hoping they change to a perk system.

argouru

Well, the sorcerer class is a prime example of being primarily magicka-focused. There are only two 3 active skills in the class that benefit stamina-focused builds and only one of the three does damage, forcing the player to rely on weapon skills to do 99% of their damage.

Summonings do damage based off of magicka (at least that's my experience with them) making them useless for stamina builds that would really benefit from them. And what about Crystal Blast? No one takes it ever because it is too weak (working off of max magicka) for a stam build to even consider using and Crystal Fragments is just too good to pass up for a magicka-focused build, so it's basically a dead morph. If they re-worked it to run off of stamina, it would have some use, giving stamsorcs a ranged option, but the only change they ever made was to increase the damage to the splash effect. When Magisorcs already have so many better options, Crystal Blast os just too sub-optimal to be used by most players.

Stamplars aren't much better off as far as class abilities. They have no stamina-focused morphs of any healing skills and Dawn's Wrath has only one skill that works off of stamina and yeah, it's good, but I wish there was more.

Why not take all those dead, undesirable magicka-focused morphs of active skills and re-work them to run off of stamina to give stam builds more options?

And don't forget how magicka-focused builds tend to work destruction staff or resto staff skills into their fighting styles.

validifyedneb18_ESO

*Ignoring the fact that all PVE builds are pretty much the same even with magicka*

I do somewhat agree with you. Point is though that this divide was mainly build for a strictly hybrid game.

Now we have a hard line between stam and mag builds and the class skill lines which where pretty much untouched are now a problem.

Would like to see hybrids come more in to play again rather than just a fix to make it "better" for the current situation tbh.
Unification of damage and penetration types could be a start, or removal of the 5 piece bonus for armor would be a step in this direction too.

Wuuffyy

Valrien wrote: »

Or we could just...you know...not

Funny to me but annoying for most.

Also, stam is suppose to main wep skills.

katorga

John_Falstaff wrote: »

NB at least has a rounded toolkit - a spammable, an execute, and even a special proc that also can fork into stamina and magicka.

This. NB is the only class that can play stamina and not be dependent on any weapon skills for damage, or really even at all. You could play stamina with a fire staff for 8% more damage if you wanted. To me they are the only class that looks like someone took time to think about stamina. That is a pretty big difference.

sneakymitchell

Or just build it hybrid and use a Magicka Regen.

John_Falstaff

@sneakymitchell , hybrids do not work. We're not talking PvP here where you can trade damage away for utility.

And @Marshall1289 has a perfect point here. Stamina only needs a couple of skills to be given more identity. How often do you use Obsidian Shard (or really Stonefist in general)? When did you last use Shattering Rocks? Coagulated Blood? (And stamina can't even use half the passives from that skill tree that require slotted or active ability: nothing for stamina to use there). But no, people will defend their their Shattering Rocks even though they have to google for it just to recall what it does.

gepe87

Sorc: A plenty skill could be stam:

Make Lightning Flood Stam Morph > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Liquid

Make MageWrath Stam Morph, similar to Endless but stam recover per mob dead > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Endless

Make Crystal Blast Stam Morph > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Fragments

Scale Clannfear damage to stam and weapon damage, burst heal wont be affected to mag characters

Air Atronach!
Energy Overload to cone based attack

Some option that both Mag and Stamsorc would accept.

argouru

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Or just build it hybrid and use a Magicka Regen.

The problem with hybrid builds is the fact that damage is calculated by how much you have invested into the stat used to fuel an active skill. DPS builds always under-perform when being a hybrid because they are not putting most or all of their attribute points into magicka or stamina. As long as max damage is calculated by how much magicka/stamina a character has, hybrids will always be too weak to compete on DPS output.

MashmalloMan

gepe87 wrote: »

Sorc: A plenty skill could be stam:

Make Lightning Flood Stam Morph > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Liquid

Make MageWrath Stam Morph, similar to Endless but stam recover per mob dead > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Endless

Make Crystal Blast Stam Morph > MagSorcs might aprove, we use Fragments

Scale Clannfear damage to stam and weapon damage, burst heal wont be affected to mag characters

Air Atronach!
Energy Overload to cone based attack

Some option that both Mag and Stamsorc would accept.

Lightning flood will never be a stam morph, the way ZOS designed the games DD meta is around 2 ground based DOTs max. Mag DD has wall of elements and then each class has a unique 1 for mag. Stam gets Endless Hail and Caltrops. They won't ever break that mould and give Stam classes 3 ground based DOTs.

Stam classes won't want to use that clunky crystal blast skill either because of the cast time, but it's in a good place to provide Stam sorc with some interesting burst. The base ability should be changed to include the 35% chance to be instant cast, then Magicka morph does more DMG, but stamina has reduced cost and a minor debuff.

Clanfear scales from Magicka, has low tooltip DMG and actually already scales from weapon Crit instead of spell Crit and physical DMG (cp for sta DDs). This is not even for mag DD, it's a % based heal meant for tanks. This is an easy fix by scaling off max sta and it would buff tanks and provide options for stam DD. I'm thinking a bow/bow build. It actually already does 600dps on pts. It should be closer to 2-3k.

brandonv516

How many skills cost Health in the game?

2, 3?

We need more of these!

MaxwellC

Yeah seriously I'm tired of playing my Stam DK because it boils down to "What weapon, armor, quest, or AvA skill-line shall I fill my bar up with?". I got no good skills in PvP aside from take flight which still gets cancelled if you're hard CC'd at ultimate usage or if a player walks a few steps around it.

I truly want and still want new skills with the reverse this time i.e stamina then morph stamina/mag. Flames of Oblivion used to be a great skill that provided an AoE mob clear/pressure to targets but sadly was removed because of stability reasons funny that sorcerers have the same damn skill now just rebranded.

All in all this is the prime reason why I believe this game is gonna get killed this year as more games are coming to all platforms with similar things to offer i.e fantasy, rpg, lore, MMO aspects, etc. Before ESO didn't have a real competitor on Xbox but that's not for long and the current appease the casual attitude with introducing a new class yet neglecting the older ones in terms of additions is another prime reason why so many of my AvA mates have jumped ship.

I kinda feel like this is the peak for this game and they pretty much suggested that during that twitch stream which was focusing on a new class and a new story rather than adding things to the classes/game that would IMO make it more enjoyable since it's not the same old thing.

I main a Stamina DK and will only play DK, stop throwing classes in my face when I'll never touch them
/rant over.

Samsquanch

Xvorg wrote: »

Wildberryjack wrote: »

ZOS, will you please make more class abilities have a stamina morph? Every stamina characters build is the same, bow and duel wield with maybe two class abilities. I want to play a Sorcerer using Sorcerer abilities, but alas, yeah. I want to play a DK using DK abilities, but well, yeah. I want my bar to be full of CLASS abilities so each character plays different, not have the exact same bow and duel wield abilities on each ones bar because that's all there is. Come on ZOS, ugh ugh ugh. Ugh.

Then, what would be the point of weapon skills?

Currently it is pretty balanced, there are similar numbers of stam and magicka skills. If you want to make more class skills stamina based, then you should do the same with stam weapons, giving magicka morphs.

Otherwise you are pigeoholing magicka into even less skills than stamina.

Destro and resto staff abilities aren’t all magicka based?

The guy said more stamina morphs, he didn’t ask for an equivalent amount of stamina and magicka morphs.

Wildberryjack

Sorry I was away for a bit. I understand what yall are saying about the weapon abilities, and yes I missed a couple of stamina morphs so TY for pointing that out to me.

All I want is to play the CLASS not HAVE to use mostly weapon abilities for stamina characters, but there aren't enough stamina morphs. Every stamina character I have has almost an identical build because I have to use weapon abilities, so there is very little variation. It's boring. Every stamina character uses the same bow/duel wield abilities with Caltrops and only a couple class abilities. I mean, I dunno, it makes it pointless to have more than one stamina character really. Would it hurt to have some more stam morphs? Really?