[PTS 4.3.0+] Discussion on 1H Enchant Changes

John_Falstaff

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lots of words with no evidence.
...
I really believe you are overblowing this and I am fine with the nerfs regardless, been a long time coming.

Mm-m, so you can't do math either. You know, read infused tooltip, divide by two, compare with same tooltip by number of front bar weaves halved, then again divide by two after the enchant nerf... If you did that (and maybe verified by parses like I did), you'd have found out that even theoretically (12s rotation, 4 procs out of possible 6 from front weaving), moving absorb to the nerfed infused main hand cuts stamina return by ~67.5%. But I'm done. Believe all you want; parses will disagree with you, but I don't think you ever bother looking at them.

Jeezye

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

All non S&B one handed weapons will receive half the value of an actual enchant while still receiving a full cooldown to that type of enchant.

Wait how do you know S&B weapons are excluded from this nerf?! Haven't seen that nowhere

Screamo

So just looking at it from a pve perspective: Am I correct that you think that the change is a problem, because you have to choose between using a DMG or Sutain Enchant? And also to follow up on that point isn't it a good thing(no CD on skills aka only sustain is the limit) that you have to make decisions between those?

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , sustain is a must for most races, so in most builds you will see absorb magicka/stamina glyph present. And now, with nerfs, putting it on front bar is not an option, because you will get a halved enchant (which already is less potent on front bar because it gets fewer procs there).

The issue is not about having to choose, the issue is that the number of choices dropped below that of 2H. If you're forced to use absorb glyph, now the only place for it is bow bar (it doesn't give much stamina otherwise), and that leaves two half-potency enchants to use on the front. And this is where core issue is: they do not stack, you cannot place two weapon damage glyphs to get one full-power weapon damage (on 2H, you can) or two halved poisons to make a full one (on 2H, you can). There is no way to replicate effect of a full enchant with two halves, that's there the core issue is. So 2H or staff gets a clear choice to either get WD/SD (and thus AoE and healing) or direct procs (and thus single target). No such option for DW, to get back on WD, one has to retrait main hand. Decisions are good thing. DW just got below 2H on number of possible choices it can decide on. That is the problem.

Stibbons

Shield enchant should be double now.

munster1404

My tank is also my primary questing character and I use an Infused poison damage for solo play. ZoS nerfed my damage and increase time to kill on an already low dps class.

Screamo

@John_Falstaff You can still combine a Poison Enchant with a Foulness enchant Both weapons infused you got exactly the same dmg as a single "normal" infused poison enchant. The only thing to change that is morag Tong active. Also a little fun fact in terms of single target an infused poison enchant does more dmg than a infused weapondmg on live.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@John_Falstaff this is the type of thing I wanted, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown

The DPS difference from lossing enchantments is almost a non issue. Especially this, sustain from Absorb Stamina Enchant (106.7 stamina recovery loss equivalent), which is not as bad you you keep saying. You really need to calm yourself.

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , different status effects, for one, and some buffs affect them differently (poison buff on sDKs). So no, not an identical replacement. And we're talking choices here; the choice is between weapon damage (AoE and healing) and direct procs (single target). 2H can make that choice by swapping front bar enchant, DW cannot anymore. You may only care about single target damage, but not everyone does. You said yourself that choices matter, so DW just got one choice taken away.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. You may only care about single target damage, but not everyone does

Yes they do. Otherwise people would use a two hander. AOE lights attacks, AOE dot. AOE scaling non mitigatable execute.

John_Falstaff

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , khajiits dropping to distant 5th place, not in small degree due to enchantment nerfs, and magicka as a whole pulling ahead - quoting, "Stamina DPS as a whole, took a hit with the DW nerf both in terms of damage and sustain from Absorb..." - is that what you mean? This data proves my point. Read into it. The real winner is magicka over stamina (as if newer content wasn't swarmed by ranged magicka already). And 2H will stay irrelevant just like before.

John_Falstaff

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. You may only care about single target damage, but not everyone does

Yes they do. Otherwise people would use a two hander. AOE lights attacks, AOE dot. AOE scaling non mitigatable execute.

Sheesh. Read yourself. Hardly anyone uses two-hander in PvE, people just choose between berserker and poison/disease. Now ZOS wanted to force a choice, but instead they prevented the use of either.

Screamo

@John_Falstaff there is no DK passive that buffs poison dmg, its just the status effect that gets stronger (can still proc as often as with a 2h poison enchant) and also a second status effect for free, i wouldnt complain. xD So would you say that the possibility of choosing between single target, Aoe, sustain and healing was better last patch with dualwield being able to take all three?

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , status effect from disease us completely, utterly useless in PvE since very few mobs self-heal. It's not even a DoT like poison. And no, I say that now after the nerf, 2H can choose two. DW cannot, at least without changing weapon traits (2H only has to replace enchantments).

You didn't read the thread, didn't you? Once again - if ZOS wanted to bring DW on par with 2H enchant-wise, they would only leave main hand enchant active. That would: 1) keep enchants precisely on par between DW and 2H, and 2) would not nerf tanks along the way.

Screamo

Ok but if I could only choose 2 Enchants one for my Frontbar and one for my Backbar, wouldn't that cut my choice even more?
And that Tanks got nerfed … I don't think I know a single endgame tank that doesnt use either Staff or a bow on his backbar to apply crusher. Taking S&B on both bars is good for learning to tank, but if you are learning how to tank there is no need for a full crusher enchant anyway because your group propaply wont use it to its full effect anyway

LiquidPony

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

If nothing else, the ability to run one FULL enchant needs to be an option somehow. And yes, you now need to cut the amount of tempers in half. The excuse used to be you could run two full powered enchants and that’s no longer the case.

Masel wrote: »

In the end we told them about the fact that s&b players wont like it.

Dual wield was quite a bit of dps ahead from 2h and bow, which shouldn't be that much now. That is the reason for this change.

Your proposition of elitism being the cause doesn't make sense...

For the last *** time, 2H doesn’t lack in DPS because of enchants.

Yes, 2h is not behind just because of the enchants but enchants were a big part of it, you are mistaken if you don't see that. Really, all they have to do now is make it so that the bleed from cleave is 50% stronger on the target closest to you, like sweeps/jabs, and single target DPS from 2h will be in almost the same, though still lower.

Why does 2h have to match DW DEEPS ANYWAY? Maybe it could provide group utility instead or be the equivalent of a stam healstick. I mean if it's play the way you want fine. But why nerf so many things at once when you could make positive changes that go a long way.

The answer to "why" here, which is such a bad way to ask, is because ZOS wants all weapons to be seen as viable. Right now the DPS that dual wield can put out compared to 2H is seen by most as non viable. Simple as.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Masel , and what did you tell them about the fact that two half-strength enchants don't add up to a full one? Do you also propose to retrait everything on main hand into Nirnhoned to invest into AoE (because now, unlike on 2H, you can't run full weapon damage + full absorb, some of that is bound to be halved)?

I don't see this as a problem. You have to choose between damage and sustain. Now you will say that 2h and destro users don't have to make that decision but you have shown no data to back up this claim, I would bet that even with the lower enchant time and proc rate that having a nirn/infused poison and infused disease/absorb Stam off hand with a berzerk back bar bow, will give you better DPS then a 2h using a full strength enchantment, with either infused or nirn posion or absorb Stam and berzerk or absorb Stam back bar.

IMO your last paragraph just demonstrates why the change is dumb. Enchants are not the reason that DW is better than 2H in PvE. DW has always been the PvE meta, long before we were running Infused/Infused, back when enchant damage was a trivial portion of DPS.

2H needs a crit bonus weapon and faster attacks to be viable. This change is coming at it from the wrong direction (the lazy direction, really, in typical ZOS fashion).

The primary problem I have with it, aside from having to transmute a bunch of *** again, is that it's a big nerf to Stam DPS across the board. I don't think my stamplar, stamsorc, or stamDK needed more nerfs TBH. They're already being out-DPS'd by the top magicka specs. IMO stamblades are the only over-performing stam spec and this is a ham-fisted nerf.

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , not really, because that limits your choice of enchants themselves with what goal you have in mind. You need absorb stamina because you're struggling with sustain? No more placing it on front: only back (because if on live absorb suffered 25-35% hit on front, now it will drop by 67% to the point of uselessness). You want to invest into weapon damage once your sustain is good? No cigar - can't have full weapon damage on front (and there is no second berserker in existence), so please transmute your main hand to nirnhoned. (Oh, you want to have easy way to swap between single target and more weapon damage? Tough luck, will have to farm that spare AY dagger, because changing enchantments isn't an option anymore.) And so on. See, having two full enchants gives more choices than one full and two halves.

As for tanks and staff or bow on back bar, then don't forget that you can't control target on which your Crusher will proc from area AoEs. If a mob will happen to be closer to the tank than boss at the moment of cast, then Wall or Hail will keep firing Crusher on that mob until you reapply the AoE (or mob dies).

Tsar_Gekkou

I'm really hoping at some point they halve the amount of upgrade materials needed for 1H to compensate.

Screamo

@John_Falstaff Well i guess i just don't see the point where having 2 Enchants gives me more options than having 3 Enchants but in terms of the crusher enchant, i cant remember a fight where i got a add closer to me than the actual boss. and also wouldnt that add some sort of "skill" in terms of knowing where to place your aoe in order to proc crusher on the boss?

LiquidPony

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

I'm really hoping at some point they halve the amount of upgrade materials needed for 1H to compensate.

And every 1H/DW drop in the game should drop 2 items instead of 1.

Azyle1

Ok well, according to test and my own testing....

Stam races are all pretty equal for the most part.. great.. yay..

but this is a MASSIVE nerf to stam dps. 60k on Sunday's PTR, like 53k last night. Magicka is now pulling ahead of stam, which, in an end game that was already full of magicka due to anti stam mini trials is not cool.

THIS. IS. A. PROBLEM.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , you'll be surprised how gimmicky that choice of target is - some abilities (like FoO) choose closest target as well, and I very often see how often a fireball shoots astray to some add even though I'm literally hugging the boss. When adds are nearby (or even chained in by tank so they'd die in AoEs), it's more randomness than skill. As for options, keep in mind that you don't get three enchants. You get 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 enchants, and no enchant can be combined with enchant of same type. It's a jigsaw puzzle, only pieces never match.

Screamo

@Azyle1 There are 2 Trials that are magicka favored and 5 Trials that are Stam favored. Are the Mini Trials *** for stamina? Yes they are *** for stam to play, but even if stam would pull even more dps that wouldn't change.

Azyle1

Screamo wrote: »

@Azyle1 There are 2 Trials that are magicka favored and 5 Trials that are Stam favored. Are the Mini Trials *** for stamina? Yes they are *** for stam to play, but even if stam would pull even more dps that wouldn't change.

@Screamo

Uhhhhhhhh.... NO trial is anti mag. NONE. Mag is always welcome. Stam is not in two trials, like literally, not welcome to join.

Other trials were not anti mag, they just allowed stam to come and stam always hit harder, but were squishier.

Screamo

@John_Falstaff there are 2 enchants that can't be fully used on your frontbar, which are the stam absorb and the weapon dmg. But what if you just need a little bit of sustain but dont want to loose a whole enchant over it now you still got the option to use a poison mainhand and the stam absorb offhand. Ohh you need even more sustain use an infused stam absorb offhand. Even more ok i Guess you will have to use it Backbar to get the full value, I totally agree that this will be a nerf to all dw builds, but i also think that i would always prefer having the half enchants with (in my opinion) way more diversety in terms of what i could use.

Screamo

@Azyle1 The thing is you can clear AS/CR using stam chars is it easy no. Would i recommend you using them in there? Hell no. But still would i recommend to run more than 3 mag in any other content no and there is also a reason why the top scores in most of the trials are done with way more stam chars than mag chars.

Skelfish

As far as my feedback goes, I think ZOS should implement a scale on enchants on a 1H weapon based on what is equipped on your off-hand. If you are using a shield, then the enchant is at full strength. If you have another weapon equipped, then the enchants are at half strength.

This way tanks are not feeling like they are unfairly punished or forced to run a staff backbar, and DW advantages don't quire overpower other 2H weapons anymore.

Azyle1

Screamo wrote: »

@Azyle1 The thing is you can clear AS/CR using stam chars is it easy no. Would i recommend you using them in there? Hell no. But still would i recommend to run more than 3 mag in any other content no and there is also a reason why the top scores in most of the trials are done with way more stam chars than mag chars.

But you can still bring a whole group of mag ( especially magblades ) to any former trial.

vMoL, vHoF, vHRC, etc, etc.

Can you do that with vAS and vCR? No.

I do not see how we can be arguing over this. Mag is fine, stam keeps getting nerfed.

jcm2606

Skelfish wrote: »

As far as my feedback goes, I think ZOS should implement a scale on enchants on a 1H weapon based on what is equipped on your off-hand. If you are using a shield, then the enchant is at full strength. If you have another weapon equipped, then the enchants are at half strength.

This way tanks are not feeling like they are unfairly punished or forced to run a staff backbar, and DW advantages don't quire overpower other 2H weapons anymore.

This is what should happen. Also feel there should be a mechanic where if you have two of the same enchants on both weapons, they effectively become the same glyph. Share the same cooldown, and both values are added together for the proc. That way you can either choose to run a single full strength glyph, or two weaker glyphs.

John_Falstaff

@Screamo , if you need so little sustain that is comparable with old absorb nerfed by 67% (infused stam absorb front after patch - non-infused would be even less), you sneak in a heavy attack. The difference between infused absorb on back and infused half-absorb on front (which would be like half a jewelry glyph) would be too big to care for such choice. But point in case is, that simple thing when you want sustain and weapon damage - you can't easily achieve that. 2H can, but DW can't. Welcome to farming for nirnhoned spares.

@jcm2606 has a point there, that solution would work too. But as things stand, 2H gives simply more freedom than DW enchant-wise. (And both are in such a deep hole compared to magicka thanks to those nerfs. Congratulations, ZOS.)