PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Class Abilities

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for overall combat and class ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

Koolio

Just curious as to when we get Melee MNB buffs stared in July Class Rep Notes

This is taken front the JULY patch notes

Dominates ranged PvE DPS. Lots of off-healing, great sustain, strong numbers. Reps EMPHATICALLY emphasized the preferred resolution to this is *not* to nerf NB, rather to make it so the other classes feel just as strong and provide unique benefits to groups that can’t be acquired elsewhere via gear or such.
One example was Crystal Frags need to be brought up to level of Assassin’s Will
Nightblade Off Healers stepping too much on the toes of Healers
Be careful about flat out nerfs because solo Nightblades need their class tools
Melee mageblade still needs work. Need to address Concealed, Assassin’s Blade, melee tools to avoid inadvertently buffing destro
Destro is too forgiving

BaylorCorvette

A quick test on the PTS with StamSorc and I feel like the new Sorc passive "Amplitude" that replaces Implosion should actually do more damage as the target gets lower health. That was the whole point of Implosion in the first place, was to aid in execute damage. I get that Implosion was a bit over tuned for PvP (almost all my time spent in ESO is PvPing on a StamSorc), however a great compromise would be to implement Amplitude but have it increase the Sorcs damage the lower the health the target gets. That way it is still aiding in execute damage BUT not an RNG damage proc that will burst an opponent with no counter play.

Right now Amplitude feel unrewarding, having damage fall off the lower the health the target is. Sorc (StamSorc specifically) has been about being offensive, with the Speed of the class and being passively healed for doing damage (Crit Surge), so it would only make sense to have Amplitude reward that play style with more damage the more you pressure the target and stay aggressive.

Thraben

Feedback StamSorcs - PvP

StamSorcs are the most underrepresented class in the game. People are already complaining about the Warden´s Permafrost- Steeltornado combo everywhere, and it will get worse, as the only class that could compete with the StamWardens AoE damage-wise (the StamSorcs) now dies out, and will also class change to StamWarden. Because:

1) The implosion change is a catastrophe for PvP StamSorcs. Unlike a Nightblade, they don´t have any class skills to profit from its reverse execute mechanic.

-> Minimum fix: Make one morph of Mage´s Fury stamina.

2) The change to rapids makes group StamSorc useless.

-> Minimum fix: rework multiple skills to make the class otherwise useful. Bound armor´s passives should be class base passives. Additionally, rework the Negate, so that it moves with the Caster to be on par with Permafrost. Also, change the Pets to be only summoned for x seconds, like the Nightblade´s shade, so that we don´t have to waste 2 bar slots for the Clannfear

3) The promised Air Atro wasn´t delivered

-> Minimum fix: Introduce an Air Atro whose duration depends on the ulti invested, and which provides minor beserk to the caster

4) The third bar of Overload is still gone, and Overload is useless on single targets.

-> Minimum fix: Reintroduce the old Overload third bar, give its Light Attack AoE damage and "Bound Greatsword Cleave" animation and its Heavy Attack a "Bound Bow" animation and strong single target damage, and make it cause physical damage, and a bleed or minor fracture debuff. The bound weapons can still retain some lightning sparkles around them to retain the class theme of Storm Calling.


5) the Murkmire changes to Dark Deal are still there.
-> reintroduce the old Dark Deal

Summary: The direction of the changes forced upon the Non-DD- Sorcs in general and to StamSorcs in particular are objectively heavily biased against the class itself. Magsorcs should be more than Fragbots, and StamSorcs SHOULD exist. I can´t understand why Nightblades and Templars have Bound Weapons skills, and the only class that SHOULD have some has none.

Zer0oo

Please buff healing ward to actually provide a heal.

ErMurazor

Rapidchange

R.I.P PvP endgame raiding 2019.01.21

technohic

So with retreating maneuvers nerf; it sounds like we are moving the ball groups into experiencing the pain we all feel rather than address snares/roots...

frostz417

Are we not going to address the ridiculous snare and rooting? But instead nerf the only good source of the group removal?? This is ridiculous

Crixus8000

Stamsorcs have many passives that do not benefit us, we have hardly any skills and our main survivability skill, bolt escape is very clunky. We don't even have a class ult. I was really hoping for some love for stamsorcs...

StShoot

why are you even making a thread about class ability changes ? there wont be any if i understand what Rob Garrett wrote

Nerftheforums

Shadow image still bugged? Can we please have a fix for that? I know it has been only 3 months, but still
Now, it's not that it really matters since on an average evening casting it takes between 2-5s to port you back, but it's still worth some fun trolling around on Saturday and Sunday mornings when it's not laggy as hell.

Demra

Thraben wrote: »

Feedback StamSorcs - PvP

StamSorcs are the most underrepresented class in the game. People are already complaining about the Warden´s Permafrost- Steeltornado combo everywhere, and it will get worse, as the only class that could compete with the StamWardens AoE damage-wise now dies out, and will also class change to StamWarden. Because:

1) The implosion change is a catastrophe for PvP StamSorcs. Unlike a Nighblade, they don´t have any class skills to profit from it.

2) The change to rapids makes group StamSorc useless.

3) The promised Air Atro wasn´t delivered

4) The third bar of Overload is still gone, and Overload is useless on single targets.

5) the Murkmire changes to Dark Deal are still there.

Summary: The direction of the changes to the Sorc class in general and to StamSorcs in particular are objectively heavily biased against the class itself.

Exactly my thoughts. Stamsorc is my favorite class but with the removal of overload bar, nerf to dark deal sustain and now implosion the only reason left for me to play it is streak. And its not enough for me to enjoy anymore.

MaxwellC

Still waiting on a reasonable change for Stam DKs as the patch notes simply state fixes rather than adding anything to our tool-set which primarily consists of other skills that are not apart of our class line.

We still have two Stamina related abilities, no AoE damage for PvE versatility and PvP pressure, no decent direct damage ability that is not an ultimate, passives that overwhelmingly favor the magicka side, and lack of decent sustain in terms of PvP combat as PvE you can simply stay stationary and LA/HA because it is static whereas PvP is dynamic.

Thanks.

BaylorCorvette

Thraben wrote: »

Feedback StamSorcs - PvP

StamSorcs are the most underrepresented class in the game. People are already complaining about the Warden´s Permafrost- Steeltornado combo everywhere, and it will get worse, as the only class that could compete with the StamWardens AoE damage-wise now dies out, and will also class change to StamWarden. Because:

1) The implosion change is a catastrophe for PvP StamSorcs. Unlike a Nighblade, they don´t have any class skills to profit from it.

2) The change to rapids makes group StamSorc useless.

3) The promised Air Atro wasn´t delivered

4) The third bar of Overload is still gone, and Overload is useless on single targets.

5) the Murkmire changes to Dark Deal are still there.

Summary: The direction of the changes to the Sorc class in general and to StamSorcs in particular are objectively heavily biased against the class itself.

StamSorc has been my main for PvP for a little over two years now and I honestly feel like StamSorc is pretty good on live right now. However I feel that the change of Implosion to "Amplitude" is going in the wrong direction. I agree that the RNG damage proc of Implosion didn't have counter play and was a little OP. I like the general idea of Amplitude, HOWEVER (see my comments a few posts above yours) I feel like the damage Amplitude provides should go UP as the targets health goes DOWN. That would make sense, since StamSorc has been about aggressive game play (Speed of class and healing from doing damage from Crit Surge).



Also, I really like the change to Rapid / Retreating Maneuvers. I usually play in a group of 5-8. So we're all having to burn resources for snare removal. However zergs and ball groups do not have to do that on live currently with someone just spamming 1 skill for the group. I think this is solid change as it brings mobility of zergs and ball groups down to that of solo / small scale groups.

mb10

Arctic blast for wardens is absolutely useless atm

Please either revert it or give it damage or anything it just needs help

A heal that scales off max health and requires an enemy target? That also stuns with no damage but it can be dodged?
Who thought it was a good idea???

CyrusArya

Thank you for the Implosion rework. The skill on live is unengaging to use, unfulfilling to kill people with, and unfair to die to.

Amplitude is a beautiful buff to the Sorcerer in PvP and PvE that will be a factor at all times, in all fights. Two birds, one stone. Well done.

Thraben

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Also, I really like the change to Rapid / Retreating Maneuvers. I usually play in a group of 5-8. So we're all having to burn resources for snare removal. However zergs and ball groups do not have to do that on live currently with someone just spamming 1 skill for the group. I think this is solid change as it brings mobility of zergs and ball groups down to that of solo / small scale groups.

I also play 3-8, preferably. If you don´t have a StamGank Tower squad, but target keeps and enemy guild groups, it WAS more effective to have a StamSorc both for executing and providing rapids, because Magicka classes didn´t have access to Forward Momentum, and some Magicka classes where useful for zerg- busting.

Both tasks have been heavily nerfed. If I was a neutral raid leader, and not one who encourages individual playstyles and diversity, I would simply go with 3-8 StamWardens now.

Tannus15

I'm actually really interested to see how Amplitude and 3 * BT works out

however
100% Health = 10% damage
99%-90% = 9%

This seems pointless. You only get the full 10% bonus for what, the first hit?
Should be at least 100% - 95%

Colecovision

I just want to throw out that the DW nerf makes no sense at all. If you want enchantments to act like two handed weapons then make the main hand enchantment the only one that is active and let all abilities and hits from either weapon give the full effect. That's how two handed enchantments work.

With this update, I now have a full chance to proc half an enchantment when I use shrouded daggers, then a full chance to proc half an enchantment when I heavy attack and so on. So in three seconds with the gcd I get 3 chances at 1/2 of an enchantment. It's not at all equal to two handed procs. That's probably why in two years as a dw bow main, I have never gotten twice as much from dw enchantments than the bow single enchantment. Not even in the dot proc debacle. Even then the bow enchantment was worth more than either of the dw enchantments because of endless hail.

Also, it's time to address the need to get double drops and double upgrade mats and double enchantment mats with no return for any of that. If you want to make it like two handed weapons, then do it. At this point, all the benefits have been removed and the downside remains. Why? Do what you said. Make it the same if that's the goal.

StarOfElyon

@ZOS_GinaBruno Will someone at ZOS please acknowledge this: currently magicka Templars still have major survivability issues when it comes to solo PVP. The only options we have are to wear heavy armor and/or become vampires. For some of us, becoming a vampire as a Templar is extremely unappealing. One of our attacks is called Vampire's Bane, after all. And moving to heavy armor loses us our magicka passives from light armor. But light armor offers no real protection. One burst and you're done. Please, someone at ZOS address this.

BaylorCorvette

Thraben wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Also, I really like the change to Rapid / Retreating Maneuvers. I usually play in a group of 5-8. So we're all having to burn resources for snare removal. However zergs and ball groups do not have to do that on live currently with someone just spamming 1 skill for the group. I think this is solid change as it brings mobility of zergs and ball groups down to that of solo / small scale groups.

I also play 3-8, preferably. If you don´t have a StamGank Tower squad, but target keeps and enemy guild groups, it WAS more effective to have a StamSorc both for executing and providing rapids, because Magicka classes didn´t have access to Forward Momentum, and some Magicka classes where useful for zerg- busting.

Both tasks have been heavily nerfed. If I was a neutral raid leader, and not one who encourages individual playstyles and diversity, I would simply go with 3-8 StamWardens now.

My group zerg busts and we never had a rapids spammer. In our group of 8, we have two Magplars and one Magden. Rest are Stam. Sure a rapids spammer would make things easier for mobility but in a small group I rather have someone that can provide other utility or damage, etc.

Nicalas

Amplitude passive is not viable for Stamina Sorcerer. The class simply lacks any effective means to use this passive.

We do not have any class abilities in order to take advantage of this passive.

We do not have any burst damage abilities to use this passive other than Dawnbreaker and Dizzy. A ultimate and a cast time two handed skill.

Our only form of sustain is locked behind a skill line passive which forces us to double bar a tanking skill. Or another ability tied to a cast time.

Minor Beserk is stronger than the passive in its current state.

Sriivah

I really find the DW enchantment nerf incredibly unneeded and rather unfair. A 2h/bow stamina build can get a full strength absorb stam glyph and poison damage glyph, but because glyphs of the same type do not stack, my dual wield build simply can't. Given that I still have to farm for twice as long and use twice as many upgrade/enchanting mats to get two one handers instead of one 2h, sacrifice survivability and cleave damage, and now my frontbar enchantments are pretty pointless? That is a LOT of downsides. How about, instead of nerfing one handed enchantments, you make two handed passives better? They're pretty bad right now.
Also, it's a tank nerf. Tanks really did not need nerfed again.

Lord_Eomer

StarOfElyon wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Will someone at ZOS please acknowledge this: currently magicka Templars still have major survivability issues when it comes to solo PVP. The only options we have are to wear heavy armor and/or become vampires. For some of us, becoming a vampire as a Templar is extremely unappealing. One of our attacks is called Vampire's Bane, after all. And moving to heavy armor loses us our magicka passives from light armor. But light armor offers no real protection. One burst and you're done. Please, someone at ZOS address this.

Agree light armor becomes a jolk in pvp, i am still using heavy armor on my magplar

Thraben

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

My group zerg busts and we never had a rapids spammer. In our group of 8, we have two Magplars and one Magden. Rest are Stam. Sure a rapids spammer would make things easier for mobility but in a small group I rather have someone that can provide other utility or damage, etc.

Everyone can spam rapids - a good StamSorc could do it WHILE doing damage.

But it doesn´t matter anyway. Just test out out what happens if you had a StamWard only group, and you will see why everybody is doing it already. It´s shockingly easy.

Brrrofski

The new implosion is kinda stupid. I agree implosion was stupid, but it would make more sense to have you do more damage as it goes down.

_Ahala_

Arctic Blast and Bird of Prey need some love

kaevix

poggers a stamsorc change, oh implosion removal. thanks zos really needed a nerf

LiquidPony

Just sort of started getting tested, but with these (stupid, unadvised, unwanted) one-hand enchant changes ...

Is there any point in running Infused on DW weapons anymore?

If you need the sustain from Absorb Stamina, you're going to have to run it on your bow since it doesn't help that much on DW.

So that means you'd normally be running Poison/Berserker on the DW bar.

For the Berserker enchant especially, not sure it makes sense. I get ~80% uptime running it on a DW weapon. It's new reduced value is +226 Weapon Damage, 226 * .80 = 180.8. So in that case, a Nirnhoned mainhand would be more effective than Infused Berserker, no?

And for a damaging enchant, take Poison for instance, with the new DW enchant values I'm getting sub-1k DPS out of the enchant with Infused.

So are we back to Nirnhoned mainhand + Poison enchant and Infused offhand + Berserker enchant, or even Nirn + Precise?

Rukzadlithau

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Wrecking Blow

Rework this morph of Uppercut into an instant cast ability: Reduce the damage and cost accordingly.

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@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam

WreckfulAbandon

Some feedback from current stamsorc main:

Agree with the idea behind the removal of Implosion but taken with the 12% nerf to Blade and Blunt, and DW enchant nerf, don't feel like stamsorc is coming out ahead at all. Which isn't great considering that Stamden and Stamblade (and Stamplar) are generally more effective options in PvP. I guess that speaks more to stamsorc's lack of a class spammable.

Amplitude is a nice idea but it could use some refining. The 10% damage buff needs to be for 90-100% health if it's gonna work that way. I would prefer a more useful and less situational passive though. It seems like ZOS is trying to dial back the DoT meta a bit with these PTS notes (that magicka group purge set alone is gonna do serious work against DoT builds). So if stamsorc can't get a decent spammable or even stamina morph of atronach then it's effectiveness is going to be eroded.

That is, its effectiveness outside of spin2win spam in group play. Was just thinking the other day I don't want stamsorc to really get buffed because more people would use it but after seeing these changes we could use a little love.