So in theory, what would would need to be done for ESO to change engines?

Sylvermynx

Katheriah wrote: »

Nerds.

Yup. I love us!

Oh, and I don't personally WANT a black desert etc. style of play.... thank you very much. UGH.

Casowen

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Nerds.

Yup. I love us!

Oh, and I don't personally WANT a black desert etc. style of play.... thank you very much. UGH.

Ok, maybe not that style perse, but look at the character customization, engine and graphics. I like it alot, but hell I dont even play that game.

Yep, we are that lovely.

nafensoriel

Casowen wrote: »

/snipsnip

What you see with the Skyrim mod isn't remotely comparable to an MMO in quite bluntly any capacity.
The Skyrim CO-OP mod is basically just a light netcode more in line with what an FPS does than an MMO. The complexity difference is too massive to list in a single post so take this summery with that in mind.
With an MMO and with MMO level security the amount of data required is nearly total. Your character isn't local, your abilities are not calculated locally, your ACTIONS require a SERVER response to DO anything. If you don't set it up this way anyone can modify local values and "hack" the game rendering the persistent nature moot and your product nonviable for the majority of gamers.
For a local friendly "co-op" mod there is no storage, there is most likely no verification or cheat detection, and honestly, I highly doubt there is anything remotely resembling security for the users. The difference is its free... which absolves the makers of any liability USERS cause to other USERS.

As to the ability to transfer ESO to Skyrim.. well that wouldn't be practical. There are over 1000 quests in ESO. Transferring that data alone would take thousands of man-hours of labour. The animations would require rework as any art assets. I'm not even sure the sound files are the same format(I'd have to check).

As to it costing hundreds of millions consider it took seven years to release ESO 1.0. The AVERAGE developer salary is in excess of 90k. The size of ESO dwarfs Skyrim in map size. Whole chunks of elder scrolls GAMES exist map wise inside ESO in nearly the same scale. (except Daggerfall... but games don't get to be 1:1 the size of Great Britain today) In addition, it was mentioned in development that ESOs maps are actually enlarged to account for an MMO sized player base. Transferring that to Skyrim is so far beyond sanity you can safely say it is impossible.
Don't get your hopes too high for the CO-OP mod btw. The ID guys failed hard with FO76 release(though to be fair they did add a netcode that worked with Atlas) and they are some of the most experienced devs in the business for netcode.

---

All that said... there is plenty ZOS can do to upgrade ESO graphically... and they know it! Don't assume devs are blind, deaf, and dumb they generally LOVE their products even if gamers think them "idiots" half the time. They would absolutely love to be able to make ESO look as realistic as the Elsweyr trailers. Budget is the key issue though. Do they make a GFX upgrade that really doesn't make them any money or do they make new content that WILL keep the lights on and the payroll well.. paid?
It's a very real challenge for a development studio but trust me they can and will make improvements as they can. I highly doubt the ZOS team is any different from any other team I've met in their passion for their product.

Rain_Greyraven

Katheriah wrote: »

Nerds.

Yep we kick ass.

Sylvermynx

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Nerds.

Yep we kick ass.

Heh. "Kickin' Nass and takin' Manes".... Some things from WoW will be forever with me. That's fine - because for many years I truly loved playing.

Odnoc

You're essentially asking if you can switch the foundation to your house...

I'm curious why you're asking.

MLGProPlayer

They would need to make a new game. You can't "change" an engine.

ZOS is currently working on a new IP. Let's hope they've gone with a modern engine for that game (hopefully UE4).

Sylvermynx

Odnoc wrote: »

You're essentially asking if you can switch the foundation to your house...

I'm curious why you're asking.

IRL... here where I live.... there have been very good reasons to "switch" a house's foundations. Some of the houses here were built in the mid 1860s. Today, they're not really viable foundation-wise if people are wanting to live in the house full time. And it's not only the foundations - it's the plumbing, electrical, HVAC (if any) and so on. The people next up the hill from us bought a house that was built in the mid-60s.... and spent over $250k bringing it up to current code.

Even our house (built in 1984) needs a couple hundred k to really make it "better". But you know.... I'm too old (not to mention husband) and money's too tight....

So yeah. Houses are kind of chump change when it comes to retrofitting, if comparing to an MMO. The housing foundation retrofits were in the neighborhood of $150k each. I figure just based on what I know of how things cost me for fixes to websites and so on (I still run a few client sites, though I don't do much of the background work any more - I sub it out), changing ESO to a whole new engine would probably not come in at less than $2 mil - and that would be a low-ball estimate.

And then they would have to tell everyone that no, they couldn't port characters to the new engine. And the fallout from that would be unbelievable.

Probably not going to happen.

Ermiq

Casowen wrote: »

Ok, your argument makes sense in regards to the engine being most everything, and I dont know what was changed in comparison to the original hero engine, so this begs the question, can hero engine be modified or rewritten some more to have a more Unreal Engine/Black desert/shadow of war style of play? I dont quite buy the argument that it would cost in the range of 100's of millions of dollars, given what is currently going on with skyrim online, but that truly isnt an mmo has as been said, and it would just constitute a series of small servers that are each customized to individual mods. However as you said, the engine is everything, so do you think you know enough about the current eso engine to say that its possible to be modified again to go to a different style that would be similar to changing engines, but without actually changing engines? Adding a Physics script would be essential in what I am suggesting, or would that totally break it?

I suppose the real reason I am excited for co-op skyrim is because I can just see someone transferring most or all the quest, textures, animations, dialoge, etc from eso to a skyrim server, though I am not sure how realistic that is also. I like the better styling of ESO, but prefer the mechanics of something sort of like skyrim.

Game engine doesn't determine a style of gameplay. Actually, you're able to make any kind of gameplay. Look at games made with Unity and Unreal: there're all kinds of gameplay styles, and visual styles, and so on. Though, some engines provide better tools to create certain mechanics and genre-related features, they usually don't limit devs in terms of gameplay.
E.g., when devs make fake-non-target combat, it's not because of engine, but it's their vision of the gameplay of their game. Another example: when they don't make parkour, it's not because of engine (most likely), but because they don't think the game needs this feature.

And ESO already has physics controled by probably the most popular of physics engines - Havok. All movements of your character and your mounts are controlled by this physics engine; walking, jumping, sliding and collisions are controlled by Havok.
Again, if ESO doesn't let you carry and throw objects, it's not because of engine nor it's physics simulation capabilities, devs just don't think this features is needed.

Odnoc

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Odnoc wrote: »

You're essentially asking if you can switch the foundation to your house...

I'm curious why you're asking.

IRL... here where I live.... there have been very good reasons to "switch" a house's foundations. Some of the houses here were built in the mid 1860s. Today, they're not really viable foundation-wise if people are wanting to live in the house full time. And it's not only the foundations - it's the plumbing, electrical, HVAC (if any) and so on. The people next up the hill from us bought a house that was built in the mid-60s.... and spent over $250k bringing it up to current code.

Even our house (built in 1984) needs a couple hundred k to really make it "better". But you know.... I'm too old (not to mention husband) and money's too tight....

So yeah. Houses are kind of chump change when it comes to retrofitting, if comparing to an MMO. The housing foundation retrofits were in the neighborhood of $150k each. I figure just based on what I know of how things cost me for fixes to websites and so on (I still run a few client sites, though I don't do much of the background work any more - I sub it out), changing ESO to a whole new engine would probably not come in at less than $2 mil - and that would be a low-ball estimate.

And then they would have to tell everyone that no, they couldn't port characters to the new engine. And the fallout from that would be unbelievable.

Probably not going to happen.

Yeah, they update them here too, even "lift" houses off them due to flooding, but that's essentially what it is. Seems small, but the work involved is massive, and certainly not cheap. Many times you're better off rebuilding and starting new.

It wouldn't be difficult to port characters honestly, all it is is data in a database. Models and such might be different but stats/gear/ect.. would be very easy to convert. The cost though, I'd take your estimate and multiply it by 10 at a very minimum.

Sylvermynx

Odnoc wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Odnoc wrote: »

You're essentially asking if you can switch the foundation to your house...

I'm curious why you're asking.

IRL... here where I live.... there have been very good reasons to "switch" a house's foundations. Some of the houses here were built in the mid 1860s. Today, they're not really viable foundation-wise if people are wanting to live in the house full time. And it's not only the foundations - it's the plumbing, electrical, HVAC (if any) and so on. The people next up the hill from us bought a house that was built in the mid-60s.... and spent over $250k bringing it up to current code.

Even our house (built in 1984) needs a couple hundred k to really make it "better". But you know.... I'm too old (not to mention husband) and money's too tight....

So yeah. Houses are kind of chump change when it comes to retrofitting, if comparing to an MMO. The housing foundation retrofits were in the neighborhood of $150k each. I figure just based on what I know of how things cost me for fixes to websites and so on (I still run a few client sites, though I don't do much of the background work any more - I sub it out), changing ESO to a whole new engine would probably not come in at less than $2 mil - and that would be a low-ball estimate.

And then they would have to tell everyone that no, they couldn't port characters to the new engine. And the fallout from that would be unbelievable.

Probably not going to happen.

Yeah, they update them here too, even "lift" houses off them due to flooding, but that's essentially what it is. Seems small, but the work involved is massive, and certainly not cheap. Many times you're better off rebuilding and starting new.

It wouldn't be difficult to port characters honestly, all it is is data in a database. Models and such might be different but stats/gear/ect.. would be very easy to convert. The cost though, I'd take your estimate and multiply it by 10 at a very minimum.

Perhaps.... but I've dealt with dbs for YEARS now. Nothing is as simple as it sounds.

Murphy is alive and well, and she's just WAITING for you to decide to do a "small" change to a table.

yodased

The entire building would have to burn down in a fire and all remote backups would need to be taken out at the same time, maybe with a concentrated attack.

Sylvermynx

yodased wrote: »

The entire building would have to burn down in a fire and all remote backups would need to be taken out at the same time, maybe with a concentrated attack.

Hoo boy. That's - a serious thing there. And it's likely the entire truth.

Casowen

Eremith wrote: »

Game engine doesn't determine a style of gameplay. Actually, you're able to make any kind of gameplay. Look at games made with Unity and Unreal: there're all kinds of gameplay styles, and visual styles, and so on. Though, some engines provide better tools to create certain mechanics and genre-related features, they usually don't limit devs in terms of gameplay.
E.g., when devs make fake-non-target combat, it's not because of engine, but it's their vision of the gameplay of their game. Another example: when they don't make parkour, it's not because of engine (most likely), but because they don't think the game needs this feature.

And ESO already has physics controled by probably the most popular of physics engines - Havok. All movements of your character and your mounts are controlled by this physics engine; walking, jumping, sliding and collisions are controlled by Havok.
Again, if ESO doesn't let you carry and throw objects, it's not because of engine nor it's physics simulation capabilities, devs just don't think this features is needed.

To my understanding, the "physics in this game are purely pre animated using havok like in other hero engine games such as swtor, which has no physics engine, and neither are the physics convincing in this game in my opinion. You cannot tumble rocks for instance.

If its possible to steer the direction of the current engine to something more like what you get in BDO, shadow of war, etc, then I would be all for that, and hence changing engines really then wouldnt be necessary, but the principle of my question remains the same, but would best be reworded to something like "What would it take to make the current engine be like, oh say BDO".

1mirg

Casowen wrote: »

is "switching engines" unrealistic?

Yes and No.

Without getting too technical here... Game Engines are essentially just the Dirt Patch which you build your house on. Sure, you can 'move' your house to another location but that would require an excess amount of resources that would end up just costing more then actually rebuilding the house. So from a strictly price point perspective it's not worth it and unrealistic.

Yet when looking at this from a Architect/Geologist point of view you can see issues with the location which you've decided to build said house on which aren't very noticeable until further inspection, stuff like building a house ontop of a Supervolcano or finding out that the foundation is poor soon afterwords are perfect (but abit drastic) examples of needing to find another location for ones home.

Yes sometimes its worth switching Locations for ones home but other times it's not. As for me, I'm not a fan of the HeroEngine foundation as there are faults with it that does restrict the game. Sure converting over to a new engine like the Unreal Engine would 'improve' the game but that wouldn't solve all this games issues as it'll only affect a 'small' part of it like your performance during largescale PvP meanwhile everything else would prob just be given a graphical update later down the line. Things like the Balancing and such won't be fixed with such a change though as those are more of a building issue and not a foundation one.

nafensoriel

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They would need to make a new game. You can't "change" an engine.

ZOS is currently working on a new IP. Let's hope they've gone with a modern engine for that game (hopefully UE4).

Every time someone wants a UE4 MMO a developer crawls into a ball and cries.
UE4 isnt a good engine for everything. It's great at what it does. It's garbage otherwise.

Somehow people think FPS centric engines(which always look fantastic because they are relatively shallow under the hood) are the best for all situations. I blame youtube. It's a bad thing to believe and makes an entire generation of gamers look like idiots.

EphemeraCrawford

Some amazing knowledgeable people in this thread. I'm learning lots.

Is it feasible with this engine to upgrade character design? The textures, customization options and rubbery skeleton we have are looking "Quaint" in 2019.

Casowen

1mirg wrote: »

Casowen wrote: »

is "switching engines" unrealistic?

Yes and No.

Without getting too technical here... Game Engines are essentially just the Dirt Patch which you build your house on. Sure, you can 'move' your house to another location but that would require an excess amount of resources that would end up just costing more then actually rebuilding the house. So from a strictly price point perspective it's not worth it and unrealistic.

Yet when looking at this from a Architect/Geologist point of view you can see issues with the location which you've decided to build said house on which aren't very noticeable until further inspection, stuff like building a house ontop of a Supervolcano or finding out that the foundation is poor soon afterwords are perfect (but abit drastic) examples of needing to find another location for ones home.

Yes sometimes its worth switching Locations for ones home but other times it's not. As for me, I'm not a fan of the HeroEngine foundation as there are faults with it that does restrict the game. Sure converting over to a new engine like the Unreal Engine would 'improve' the game but that wouldn't solve all this games issues as it'll only affect a 'small' part of it like your performance during largescale PvP meanwhile everything else would prob just be given a graphical update later down the line. Things like the Balancing and such won't be fixed with such a change though as those are more of a building issue and not a foundation one.

Ok, let me reword it then, can the current hero engine be "suped up" to run more like something you would see in say BDO? Im not a fan of the current hero engine foundation either, whether its the lack of a physics engine or just that "last decade" style of mmo as I call it. I want to say the long answer to this question is just simply no, but I could be wrong.

yodased

The engine itself isn't responsible for the art direction, the assets themselves are what give you the flavor.

For instance, this game could have underwater and also have flight, it would require the entire thing to be reworked.

http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Particle_effects
http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Water_Tutorial

how to create flying spaces

http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Area_architecture

Ydrisselle

Casowen wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

Game engine doesn't determine a style of gameplay. Actually, you're able to make any kind of gameplay. Look at games made with Unity and Unreal: there're all kinds of gameplay styles, and visual styles, and so on. Though, some engines provide better tools to create certain mechanics and genre-related features, they usually don't limit devs in terms of gameplay.
E.g., when devs make fake-non-target combat, it's not because of engine, but it's their vision of the gameplay of their game. Another example: when they don't make parkour, it's not because of engine (most likely), but because they don't think the game needs this feature.

And ESO already has physics controled by probably the most popular of physics engines - Havok. All movements of your character and your mounts are controlled by this physics engine; walking, jumping, sliding and collisions are controlled by Havok.
Again, if ESO doesn't let you carry and throw objects, it's not because of engine nor it's physics simulation capabilities, devs just don't think this features is needed.

To my understanding, the "physics in this game are purely pre animated using havok like in other hero engine games such as swtor, which has no physics engine, and neither are the physics convincing in this game in my opinion. You cannot tumble rocks for instance.

If its possible to steer the direction of the current engine to something more like what you get in BDO, shadow of war, etc, then I would be all for that, and hence changing engines really then wouldnt be necessary, but the principle of my question remains the same, but would best be reworded to something like "What would it take to make the current engine be like, oh say BDO".

Let's assume it's possible in an MMO. You move a rock when you jump on it. What will happen with the next player going there? S/he should see the rock at it's new place. And the next plaer after her/him too. The game should store the position of every single little rock on the server and update their positions after somebody kick even one of them. That would cause even more communication between the server and the client than two full raid bumping into each other in Cyrodiil. I'm sure it would be possible to have movable objects in ESO, but it would cause worse lag than any event which requires a lot of people being in the same place at the same time...

Ogou

You keep saying that you want it to run more like BDO. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about the graphics, the combat? Do you just want cape physics?
All of those should be possible on the hero engine given enough time and money. At the end of the day, unless what your suggesting fits ZOS' idea of what ESO should be I don't see them spending time and money to make it happen.

Casowen

yodased wrote: »

The engine itself isn't responsible for the art direction, the assets themselves are what give you the flavor.

For instance, this game could have underwater and also have flight, it would require the entire thing to be reworked.

http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Particle_effects
http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Water_Tutorial

how to create flying spaces

http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Area_architecture

Really? I was wondering that for awhile because I first got the game when the morrowind expansion game out, and I tried going to a few under water places thinking it would be like in morrowind 2002, but nope. People here say it would cost to much to rework engine, but I believe the blur videos for instance are a waste of money, where as the engine could be reworked to have a better gaming experience, as is the whole point. I would be curious what a real estimate of what an engine rework could cost, and compare that to blur video production cost. Personally, those vids dont work on me, and I wont be spending any more money on this game most likely.

Ermiq

Casowen wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

Game engine doesn't determine a style of gameplay. Actually, you're able to make any kind of gameplay. Look at games made with Unity and Unreal: there're all kinds of gameplay styles, and visual styles, and so on. Though, some engines provide better tools to create certain mechanics and genre-related features, they usually don't limit devs in terms of gameplay.
E.g., when devs make fake-non-target combat, it's not because of engine, but it's their vision of the gameplay of their game. Another example: when they don't make parkour, it's not because of engine (most likely), but because they don't think the game needs this feature.

And ESO already has physics controled by probably the most popular of physics engines - Havok. All movements of your character and your mounts are controlled by this physics engine; walking, jumping, sliding and collisions are controlled by Havok.
Again, if ESO doesn't let you carry and throw objects, it's not because of engine nor it's physics simulation capabilities, devs just don't think this features is needed.

To my understanding, the "physics in this game are purely pre animated using havok like in other hero engine games such as swtor, which has no physics engine, and neither are the physics convincing in this game in my opinion. You cannot tumble rocks for instance.

If its possible to steer the direction of the current engine to something more like what you get in BDO, shadow of war, etc, then I would be all for that, and hence changing engines really then wouldnt be necessary, but the principle of my question remains the same, but would best be reworded to something like "What would it take to make the current engine be like, oh say BDO".

Physics can not be animated. When something is just animated to act like physics, then it's not physics. The entire sense of physics simulation is its real-time calculation which is made automatically by physics engine. In simple words, developer says that with a jump button press the character body gets some pre-defined force impulse and vector, and everything else (the whole flight trajectory while jumping) is calculated by the physics engine in real-time.
Some games don't use physics for jumping (e.g., Gothic series (and even new Pyrahnia studios game ELEX), old GTA (3, Vice City, San Andreas) and many others), as a programmer, I can see it (though I'm not entirely sure). ESO definitely uses physics for jumping, and also for simple moving on a plane terrain, here I'm pretty much sure.
Why they don't let environment to use physics? @Ydrisselle already answered: too much stuff to calculate, unnecessary additional work for the servers.

Red_Feather

So far the bestest combat I played was Dragon's Dogma. Capcom are really good at that.

nafensoriel

Casowen wrote: »

Ok, let me reword it then, can the current hero engine be "suped up" to run more like something you would see in say BDO? Im not a fan of the current hero engine foundation either, whether its the lack of a physics engine or just that "last decade" style of mmo as I call it. I want to say the long answer to this question is just simply no, but I could be wrong.

Thats oddly a very complex question with a very simple answer.
Yes.
but...
It might require exponentially more work than one might expect.

--Could the ESO art team drop 1.5m poly models into the game tomorrow?
Yep. I highly doubt the engine would care or even need an upgrade to do this.
However, it would also probably be incapable of running at any reasonable performance.
Now the question becomes can you adjust other things to get that performance back into spec? FFXV is capable of pushing an absolutely absurd amount of polygons per second but to do that it needs to get that performance back in other categories. Its a perfect counter comparison to development choices.
FFXV Example
ESO Murkmire Example
In one image we see developers who want the absolute best single quality imagery they can get. To get this they have to leave the image space fairly empty though and reduce polygons anywhere there isn't an "active focus". In some ways, this works great. High poly grass doesn't really matter when you are riding a horse and its flying by at 25mph for an example. The main challenge is that your world is very very empty looking. BDO suffers from this in many aspects as well.

In the other image, we see developers more interested in the world telling part of the story. The image space is filled with innocuous and frankly "useless" to a gameplay perspective item like mugs, traps, barrels, plants, etc. The density of ESO cities is actually really high compared to just about anyone else due to this focus. It's more comparable to a scene in witcher3 with the number of innocuous items laying around just for effect. It's equally as performance intensive but you can't have any one element be extremely taxing to do this. Your compromise is immersion for graphical fidelity.

ESO can increase its graphical fidelity yes. The engine will do whatever the art team throws at it in many cases. The users' performance won't, however. So for a moment put yourself in their shoes and become the lead developer. Decide if you want a main character who is physically gorgeous and one or two mobs who are equally as gorgeous but they all sit in a room that's basically a box... or do you want the fully immersive "the world tells a story" setting ESO currently gives you?

Casowen

Ogou wrote: »

You keep saying that you eant it to run more like BDO. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about the graphics, the combat? Do you just want cape physics?
All of those should be possible on the hero engine given enough time and money. At the end of the day, unless what your suggesting fits ZOS' idea of what ESO should be I don't see them spending time and money to make it happen.

nafensoriel wrote: »

Casowen wrote: »

Ok, let me reword it then, can the current hero engine be "suped up" to run more like something you would see in say BDO? Im not a fan of the current hero engine foundation either, whether its the lack of a physics engine or just that "last decade" style of mmo as I call it. I want to say the long answer to this question is just simply no, but I could be wrong.

Thats oddly a very complex question with a very simple answer.
Yes.
but...
It might require exponentially more work than one might expect.

--Could the ESO art team drop 1.5m poly models into the game tomorrow?
Yep. I highly doubt the engine would care or even need an upgrade to do this.
However, it would also probably be incapable of running at any reasonable performance.
Now the question becomes can you adjust other things to get that performance back into spec? FFXV is capable of pushing an absolutely absurd amount of polygons per second but to do that it needs to get that performance back in other categories. Its a perfect counter comparison to development choices.
FFXV Example
ESO Murkmire Example
In one image we see developers who want the absolute best single quality imagery they can get. To get this they have to leave the image space fairly empty though and reduce polygons anywhere there isn't an "active focus". In some ways, this works great. High poly grass doesn't really matter when you are riding a horse and its flying by at 25mph for an example. The main challenge is that your world is very very empty looking. BDO suffers from this in many aspects as well.

In the other image, we see developers more interested in the world telling part of the story. The image space is filled with innocuous and frankly "useless" to a gameplay perspective item like mugs, traps, barrels, plants, etc. The density of ESO cities is actually really high compared to just about anyone else due to this focus. It's more comparable to a scene in witcher3 with the number of innocuous items laying around just for effect. It's equally as performance intensive but you can't have any one element be extremely taxing to do this. Your compromise is immersion for graphical fidelity.

ESO can increase its graphical fidelity yes. The engine will do whatever the art team throws at it in many cases. The users' performance won't, however. So for a moment put yourself in their shoes and become the lead developer. Decide if you want a main character who is physically gorgeous and one or two mobs who are equally as gorgeous but they all sit in a room that's basically a box... or do you want the fully immersive "the world tells a story" setting ESO currently gives you?

I will be honest, I am at something of a lose for words in what I am trying to explain. Yes graphical fidelity and story is important, but what I am really trying to emphasize is that tactile environmental feedback I would get in say BDO, FFXV, warframe, etc. Im not disputing eso's world density, but it lacks that finite play-ability in games that I mentioned, partly due to having an environment with a constant physics engine. I do think this game could have both the immersion and fidelity I am saying, but given the politics, the engine will ever be enhanced again to compete with BDO or FFXV in the area of environmental tactileness simply because zenimax are not interested in that, mainly due to the history of making this game, and the fact that the current engine just isnt efficient enough like DX11/12 applications, or exponentially more work as you called it. If it where me, I would have focused my resources on this over blowing money on blur video. That failed hard with swtor in the eternal empire saga

yodased

The problem is you dont understand enough about what makes things you dont like so its difficult to get that across to people.

Just an assumption but you dont seem to enjoy the systems and art direction of eso and are somehow tying that to physics.

Z-axis is possible in this engine. But it has to be created from scratch, that choice was made at the beginning to include it. Your thinly veiled insult towards the development team comparing eso to a 2002 game shows both your contempt and utter lack of knowledge when it comes to game.

Best bet is to just accept this game isnt for you and go do things you enjoy.

VaranisArano

I went looking for info on the Blur trailers, since you seem bothered by them. Didn't find a definitive cost, but this article does a good job of explaining why companies use them: https://www.studiopigeon.com/blog/how-much-does-it-cost-to-produce-animation-and-why/

Personally, I enjoy the trailers. This one fell a little flat for me, but the Summerset one? All The Hype!


I also play Warframe. ESO is designed to mimic the Elder Scrolls single player worlds within the limitations of an MMO. In Skyrim, you can knock over stuff, but you arent bouncing off the walls. In ESO, players making further significant changes to the environment would be prohibitive. Think of the way Skyrim save games pick up bloat from things like the ash piles caused from disintegrating enemies - ESO's would be worse.

In comparison, Warframe is designed for fully interactive architecture - you can bounce off the walls - within very strict limitations. Warframe has very few interactables compared to ESO. You have more freedom of movement than you do in ESO and you also have less actions to do. There's less open world and any feedback you leave in terms of opened containers is limited to three other players and a comparatively small amount of time in the instance, unless you spend hours and hours on the Plains or Orb Vallis.

Its the difference between a questing, adventuring RPG game in an open world MMO and a run-and-gun 4-man-team of space ninjas going on instanced missions that usually take no more than twenty to thirty minutes to complete in very limited environments.

The area where ESO and Warframe do overlap is the open world areas. If I'm looking for roleplay or interactivity with the world, there I think ESO is hands down the victor over anything we get in Cetus or Fortuna. Similarly, the Plains and Fortuna have a lot of stuff to do, but its very limited in scope,. Mining, fishing, fighting, hunting, people telling me to do basic quests of preset types...Warframe gives me the freedom to move within a strictly limited amount of things to actually do.

Ultimately, this comes down to personal preference. If the tactile interaction with the environment is more important to you, you may prefer a game like Warframe where the roleplay is limited but the gameplay is well defined within those limitations. Warframe doesnt do a lot of things, but what it does, it does well. In comparison, ESO has a much greater depth to its world and its role play at the expense of interacting physically with its environment and having limited movement options.

Ogou

Casowen wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

You keep saying that you eant it to run more like BDO. What do you mean by that? Are you talking about the graphics, the combat? Do you just want cape physics?
All of those should be possible on the hero engine given enough time and money. At the end of the day, unless what your suggesting fits ZOS' idea of what ESO should be I don't see them spending time and money to make it happen.

nafensoriel wrote: »

Casowen wrote: »

Ok, let me reword it then, can the current hero engine be "suped up" to run more like something you would see in say BDO? Im not a fan of the current hero engine foundation either, whether its the lack of a physics engine or just that "last decade" style of mmo as I call it. I want to say the long answer to this question is just simply no, but I could be wrong.

Thats oddly a very complex question with a very simple answer.
Yes.
but...
It might require exponentially more work than one might expect.

--Could the ESO art team drop 1.5m poly models into the game tomorrow?
Yep. I highly doubt the engine would care or even need an upgrade to do this.
However, it would also probably be incapable of running at any reasonable performance.
Now the question becomes can you adjust other things to get that performance back into spec? FFXV is capable of pushing an absolutely absurd amount of polygons per second but to do that it needs to get that performance back in other categories. Its a perfect counter comparison to development choices.
FFXV Example
ESO Murkmire Example
In one image we see developers who want the absolute best single quality imagery they can get. To get this they have to leave the image space fairly empty though and reduce polygons anywhere there isn't an "active focus". In some ways, this works great. High poly grass doesn't really matter when you are riding a horse and its flying by at 25mph for an example. The main challenge is that your world is very very empty looking. BDO suffers from this in many aspects as well.

In the other image, we see developers more interested in the world telling part of the story. The image space is filled with innocuous and frankly "useless" to a gameplay perspective item like mugs, traps, barrels, plants, etc. The density of ESO cities is actually really high compared to just about anyone else due to this focus. It's more comparable to a scene in witcher3 with the number of innocuous items laying around just for effect. It's equally as performance intensive but you can't have any one element be extremely taxing to do this. Your compromise is immersion for graphical fidelity.

ESO can increase its graphical fidelity yes. The engine will do whatever the art team throws at it in many cases. The users' performance won't, however. So for a moment put yourself in their shoes and become the lead developer. Decide if you want a main character who is physically gorgeous and one or two mobs who are equally as gorgeous but they all sit in a room that's basically a box... or do you want the fully immersive "the world tells a story" setting ESO currently gives you?

I will be honest, I am at something of a lose for words in what I am trying to explain. Yes graphical fidelity and story is important, but what I am really trying to emphasize is that tactile environmental feedback I would get in say BDO, FFXV, warframe, etc. Im not disputing eso's world density, but it lacks that finite play-ability in games that I mentioned, partly due to having an environment with a constant physics engine. I do think this game could have both the immersion and fidelity I am saying, but given the politics, the engine will ever be enhanced again to compete with BDO or FFXV in the area of environmental tactileness simply because zenimax are not interested in that, mainly due to the history of making this game, and the fact that the current engine just isnt efficient enough like DX11/12 applications, or exponentially more work as you called it. If it where me, I would have focused my resources on this over blowing money on blur video. That failed hard with swtor in the eternal empire saga

ESO has DX11 as a minimum requirement.

rfennell_ESO

If it was feasible to change game engines WOW would have tried it already.

Blizzard/Activision certainly has the resources to do something like that and the fact that they can't port World of Warcraft to consoles with current engine certainly is a thorn in their side.

If you followed anything from Fallout76, it seems Zeni/Bethesda gave an attempt at using the "creation engine" for ESO. At the time it was just impossible (and probably still is).

But, back to Blizzard and World of Warcraft... if there was an engine in need of replacing that's it. It doesn't seem they are even looking at it and are content to constantly upgrade their 20 year old in house engine they used for Warcraft3.