[Update 21 ]"Core mantra of the game - freedom"

Hellviolin

To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom.
Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

Dear developers.
"Freedom" you say, huh? What freedom you are telling us about? Yes, you've nerfed/upped some stats for each race. But actually you've changed nothing.
Why?
Because, for example:

• I can't make a Khajiit - tank or healer (PvP/PvE doesn't matter). Khajiit has no passives for it and I have to choose another races to play or forget about high-end content.
  If you didn't noticed requirements for the raids are quite strict.
• I have to create two different characters - templars! One for PvE and 2nd for PvP. Because I have to use different races to create effective builds!

What freedom are we talking about?!

How to change it? Well, I see one option: Delete all racial passives with a bonuses to any characteristics and return them with item-sets or food. Let an equipment and build decide what class you are, not a race.
Other "just for fun" passives like an Argonian's swimming or Khajiit's pocket-picking we can leave as they are. But, honestly, most of them are useless.

MartiniDaniels

Waiting comment about Voeler khajiit tank. Or how somebody tanked vet trial with maelstrom's bow.

sharquez

Did you know one of the most knowledgeable tanks in the game uses a khajiit? Player skill and gear build determines whether or not they will be good at their role, Race helps but if a player is competent at their core, that is more than enough to pull them though any meaningful content.

susmitds

You don't need race for tanking. With enough skill, you can play tank for any race.

Tanked vMOL, all crag vet trials, vet dungeons, vDSA, vBRA on Khajiit Stamblade and a Bosmer Stamplar.

Kadoin

I still find the changes better than nothing. The passives on live are honestly poorly balanced and extremely one-dimensional in my opinion. These changes should have honestly came a long time ago, probably in One Tamriel. Maybe then there would not have needed to be so many nerfs to sustain, and even certain sets.

I'm still hoping for the day CP is touched by the balance team...

Nah, they will keep ruining classes and releasing extremely powerful proc sets to compensate for it probably...

Tasear

It's your personal perception that is of error here. If race is only thing making you skilled. I don't think it's develpoers fault here.

susmitds

Tasear wrote: »

It's your personal perception that is of error here. If race is only thing making you skilled. I don't think it's develpoers fault here.

Bouldercleave

Hellviolin wrote: »

To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom.
Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

Dear developers.
"Freedom" you say, huh? What freedom you are telling us about? Yes, you've nerfed/upped some stats for each race. But actually you've changed nothing.
Why?
Because, for example:

• I can't make a Khajiit - tank or healer (PvP/PvE doesn't matter). Khajiit has no passives for it and I have to choose another races to play or forget about high-end content.
  If you didn't noticed requirements for the raids are quite strict. This is NOT ZoS' fault - it is OURS.
  
• I have to create two different characters - templars! One for PvE and 2nd for PvP. Because I have to use different races to create effective builds! That is 100% your choice. I disagree that only ONE race is "effective" and all others are not.

What freedom are we talking about?! The only thing that limits freedom is our own desire to be BiS. You do not HAVE to be a specific race to succeed in this game. If you want to be hyper competitive though, there will ALWAYS be one build/race/gear set up that performs better than the rest. That cannot ever be balanced out completely

How to change it? Well, I see one option: Delete all racial passives with a bonuses to any characteristics and return them with item-sets or food. Let an equipment and build decide what class you are, not a race.
Other "just for fun" passives like an Argonian's swimming or Khajiit's pocket-picking we can leave as they are. But, honestly, most of them are useless.

Your solution sounds boring. Why even bother having races at all if they don't offer differences?

MartiniDaniels

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Hellviolin wrote: »

To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom.
Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

Dear developers.
"Freedom" you say, huh? What freedom you are telling us about? Yes, you've nerfed/upped some stats for each race. But actually you've changed nothing.
Why?
Because, for example:

• I can't make a Khajiit - tank or healer (PvP/PvE doesn't matter). Khajiit has no passives for it and I have to choose another races to play or forget about high-end content.
  If you didn't noticed requirements for the raids are quite strict. This is NOT ZoS' fault - it is OURS.
  
• I have to create two different characters - templars! One for PvE and 2nd for PvP. Because I have to use different races to create effective builds! That is 100% your choice. I disagree that only ONE race is "effective" and all others are not.

What freedom are we talking about?! The only thing that limits freedom is our own desire to be BiS. You do not HAVE to be a specific race to succeed in this game. If you want to be hyper competitive though, there will ALWAYS be one build/race/gear set up that performs better than the rest. That cannot ever be balanced out completely

How to change it? Well, I see one option: Delete all racial passives with a bonuses to any characteristics and return them with item-sets or food. Let an equipment and build decide what class you are, not a race.
Other "just for fun" passives like an Argonian's swimming or Khajiit's pocket-picking we can leave as they are. But, honestly, most of them are useless.

Your solution sounds boring. Why even bother having races at all if they don't offer differences?

Well, if we speak about dps new changes are not so bad actually, only altmer is step higher, others are more or less comparable, so basically any race can be effective dps. If we look at tanks it's too became better, since argonian was best tank with a huge advantage even over imperial, now we have 4 viable tank races. But with healers it's still the same - breton, altmer, argonian - all others are trash. Which is really stupid because every race have healers and so they need some features, at least with proc passives. For bosmer maybe like summon wild hunt which heals ally and roots monsters around him for 5 seconds if group member fall behind 30% health, once per 30 seconds. For khajiit something like cat grace, auto block HA landing on unblocking ally, in 10 meters, once per 30 seconds etc.

zaria

Cleared most vet dlc as an Khajiit healer, only complain I got was to stay more on healing staff during the 3rd last boss as in falckreach I was too much on destro as group was doing well up to this.
HM clear on CoS as tank did not understand the HM mechanic
Yes DD was good but still not meta level.

Tommy_The_Gun

Freedom.. yeah... Argonian nerf will probably force every single argonian out there to use at lest 1 or 2 potion cooldown enchant with infused jewellery... kinda breaks build diversity imho...

ecru

sharquez wrote: »

Did you know one of the most knowledgeable tanks in the game uses a khajiit? Player skill and gear build determines whether or not they will be good at their role, Race helps but if a player is competent at their core, that is more than enough to pull them though any meaningful content.

The race you pick for a tank doesn't matter if you're a good player. On the other hand, picking a different race for stam or magicka dps can make a noticeable difference in dps or sustain.

There's no real freedom. If they wanted to give us the freedom to pick whatever race we wanted, they would have disconnected racial passives from races entirely, but they didn't.

eso_nya

Hellviolin wrote: »

To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because race changers are one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - money.

Fixed that for u

CipherNine

These changes have nothing to do with creating diversity. There is plenty of other solutions to actually do that. They know it and they haven't and have not intention of doing so. This is solely a cash grab tactic to get an influx of money from race change tokens. They know for fact people have many characters and that 1 token is no where near enough

mxxo

These changes only tighten the class race choice. Its the end of diversity.

rafaelcsmaia

Well dps wise khajiit is almost on par with altmer fully buffed (ive calculated). Of course altmers sustain and solo dps is much better, but nothing compared to live

Edit: don't get me wrong, I also find incredibly funny they mention freedom as their mantra while locking us to their crazy class and race changes

DoobZ69

If race doesn't matter then why are they changing it? These kinds of arguments are illogical. Just because someone can do something while disadvantaged doesn't mean they are simply equally capable of doing the same thing - they are permanently disadvantaged. Can you live on 15$ an hour? Sure, but this race pays 20$. Which would you chose?

A person who is making a character and would like every advantage available for that role will be eliminating their options by what is available. So the race options are automatically smaller and no longer 10 races to choose from but 2-3 at the most. A good design is if every race has something unique which makes them equally capable of doing the tank/healer/dps role. Then the choice is cosmetic as well as full of flavor.

If you find it boring that the game allows you to create a character without punishing you for your choice then I feel sorry for you. I gave them a chance to redeem themselves after Nerfmire but this was obviously for naught. Now I will only be excited for complete race passives removal announcements. They're had their many chances. No re-sub.

CipherNine

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

Bouldercleave

CipherNine wrote: »

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

By your statement, RACE should have no basis on how the racial passives should be. It has nothing to do with lore.


What you want is to be able to cherry pick passives from any race and fit it into your ideal character. That would just make the meta more precise than it already is.

Raid groups will now not care about your race as long as you have xxx gear, xxx skills, and xxx passives.


Yawn.

CipherNine

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

By your statement, RACE should have no basis on how the racial passives should be. It has nothing to do with lore.


What you want is to be able to cherry pick passives from any race and fit it into your ideal character. That would just make the meta more precise than it already is.

Raid groups will now not care about your race as long as you have xxx gear, xxx skills, and xxx passives.


Yawn.

No that is not what I was saying. lol it would not make the meta more precise than it already is. How the hell do you figure that? If we wanted to be a healer for example then we could choose the passives that fit that role. As any race. How the hell would that make the meta more precise? There would be no race meta then.

We should be to choose max health/regen or max stamina/regen or max mag/regen so we can play any role we want and be able to play any race we want. To add extra uniqueness they can give each race a few other passives that are unique.

Nope raids should not care what race you are to begin with. This is Elder Scrolls. We should be able to play whatever race we want and be whatever role we want. I don't know what world you live in but I don't think you raid at all because raids already care what gear / skills and passives you use. It's already exactly as you described. which is not a good thing.

Bouldercleave

CipherNine wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

By your statement, RACE should have no basis on how the racial passives should be. It has nothing to do with lore.


What you want is to be able to cherry pick passives from any race and fit it into your ideal character. That would just make the meta more precise than it already is.

Raid groups will now not care about your race as long as you have xxx gear, xxx skills, and xxx passives.


Yawn.

No that is not what I was saying. lol it would not make the meta more precise than it already is. How the hell do you figure that? If we wanted to be a healer for example then we could choose the passives that fit that role. As any race. How the hell would that make the meta more precise? There would be no race meta then.

We should be to choose max health/regen or max stamina/regen or max mag/regen so we can play any role we want and be able to play any race we want. To add extra uniqueness they can give each race a few other passives that are unique.

Nope raids should not care what race you are to begin with. This is Elder Scrolls. We should be able to play whatever race we want and be whatever role we want. I don't know what world you live in but I don't think you raid at all because raids already care what gear / skills and passives you use. It's already exactly as you described. which is not a good thing.

No race meta but a passives meta (and raid requirement). Don't try and tell me that raid guilds wouldn't require you to have specific passives - thus making the meta more precise. Please tell me what you can't comprehend by this statement. And is was EXACTLY what you were saying.

Your quote: "We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be." YOUR words.

CipherNine

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

By your statement, RACE should have no basis on how the racial passives should be. It has nothing to do with lore.


What you want is to be able to cherry pick passives from any race and fit it into your ideal character. That would just make the meta more precise than it already is.

Raid groups will now not care about your race as long as you have xxx gear, xxx skills, and xxx passives.


Yawn.

No that is not what I was saying. lol it would not make the meta more precise than it already is. How the hell do you figure that? If we wanted to be a healer for example then we could choose the passives that fit that role. As any race. How the hell would that make the meta more precise? There would be no race meta then.

We should be to choose max health/regen or max stamina/regen or max mag/regen so we can play any role we want and be able to play any race we want. To add extra uniqueness they can give each race a few other passives that are unique.

Nope raids should not care what race you are to begin with. This is Elder Scrolls. We should be able to play whatever race we want and be whatever role we want. I don't know what world you live in but I don't think you raid at all because raids already care what gear / skills and passives you use. It's already exactly as you described. which is not a good thing.

No race meta but a passives meta (and raid requirement) Please tell me what you can't comprehend by this statement. And is was EXACTLY what you were saying.

Your quote: "We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be." YOUR words.

You are just flat out ignoring what I am saying and "cherry picking" out parts of what I said and twisting it around. You are the one that cant comprehend what I am saying. There would be no passives meta requirement. If you could choose the passives you need for your role. Then you would obviously have the passives for the raid requirement. if you are a DPS or Healer or Tank. You would have the passives for that. It's not rocket science.

Bouldercleave

CipherNine wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

The lore should have no bases on how the racial passives should be. We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be.
The whole argument like Nords should not have mag passives is just flat out bs same with any other race.

For example. Shalidor is said to be the greatest mage of the 1st era. Guess what he is a NORD! So the lore defense is baseless. Our characters are unique beings in the world so we should be able to be unique characters in the world for however we wish to be.

By your statement, RACE should have no basis on how the racial passives should be. It has nothing to do with lore.


What you want is to be able to cherry pick passives from any race and fit it into your ideal character. That would just make the meta more precise than it already is.

Raid groups will now not care about your race as long as you have xxx gear, xxx skills, and xxx passives.


Yawn.

No that is not what I was saying. lol it would not make the meta more precise than it already is. How the hell do you figure that? If we wanted to be a healer for example then we could choose the passives that fit that role. As any race. How the hell would that make the meta more precise? There would be no race meta then.

We should be to choose max health/regen or max stamina/regen or max mag/regen so we can play any role we want and be able to play any race we want. To add extra uniqueness they can give each race a few other passives that are unique.

Nope raids should not care what race you are to begin with. This is Elder Scrolls. We should be able to play whatever race we want and be whatever role we want. I don't know what world you live in but I don't think you raid at all because raids already care what gear / skills and passives you use. It's already exactly as you described. which is not a good thing.

No race meta but a passives meta (and raid requirement) Please tell me what you can't comprehend by this statement. And is was EXACTLY what you were saying.

Your quote: "We should be able to choose the passives we want with whatever race we choose depending the roles we want to be." YOUR words.

You are just flat out ignoring what I am saying and "cherry picking" out parts of what I said and twisting it around. You are the one that cant comprehend what I am saying. There would be no passives meta requirement. If you could choose the passives you need for your role. Then you would obviously have the passives for the raid requirement. if you are a DPS or Healer or Tank. You would have the passives for that. It's not rocket science.

And you don't think that everyone would pick the exact same passives, thus killing diversity just that much more? You would see more races out there, but everyone would use the exact same passives - the ones that are OP for that period of time.

All DPS would have the same passives but be any race
All Tanks would have the same passives but be any race
All Healers would have the same passives but be any race


In essence all we would be doing is having the ability to make our avatar any race that we want it to be. Perhaps the races SHOULD have differences, and the REAL problem is that WE feel the need to pigeonhole ourselves into certain builds to chase an imaginary carrot.

CipherNine

And you don't think that everyone would pick the exact same passives, thus killing diversity just that much more? You would see more races out there, but everyone would use the exact same passives - the ones that are OP for that period of time.

All DPS would have the same passives but be any race
All Tanks would have the same passives but be any race
All Healers would have the same passives but be any race


In essence all we would be doing is having the ability to make our avatar any race that we want it to be. Perhaps the races SHOULD have differences, and the REAL problem is that WE feel the need to pigeonhole ourselves into certain builds to chase an imaginary carrot.

Having all races just as viable for every role is the exact definition of diversity. Not gonna bother with you anymore. You obviously just picked out one sentence of what I said and completely ignored the rest. Cause what you have said has nothing to do with anything I said.

Bouldercleave

CipherNine wrote: »

And you don't think that everyone would pick the exact same passives, thus killing diversity just that much more? You would see more races out there, but everyone would use the exact same passives - the ones that are OP for that period of time.

All DPS would have the same passives but be any race
All Tanks would have the same passives but be any race
All Healers would have the same passives but be any race


In essence all we would be doing is having the ability to make our avatar any race that we want it to be. Perhaps the races SHOULD have differences, and the REAL problem is that WE feel the need to pigeonhole ourselves into certain builds to chase an imaginary carrot.

Not gonna bother with you anymore. You obviously just picked out one sentence of what I said and completely ignored the rest. Cause what you have said has nothing to do with anything I said.

But is was the only sentence of what you said that was worth addressing. The rest was just useless garbage. You want to do away with racial passives all together and just pick the passives that you want - a theory that I personally disagree with.

I'm sorry that I triggered you.

Chaos2088

...Or....each race has three sets of passives, one stam, one health one magicka, and you get to choose one. Meaning that would be x3 the amount of work for Zos but literally play as you want regarding race. We can change it on the alters like we do with skill and attribute points now in the main cities. Like vampire and lycanthropy gets their skills refunded now.

As to keeping it lore friendly, scratching my head a little on that tbh with this idea.

Well maybe a race that is more inclined to a way of being like eg. Altmer leans for towards magic, they have a slight advantage over other magicka users, vice-versa for Regaurd for stam.

Kinda the same as what we have now, but with more options.....

Don't know about everyone else, but I still feel like the changes that will come have not really done much, just shuffled things around.

CipherNine

Chaos2088 wrote: »

...Or....each race has three sets of passives, one stam, one health one magicka, and you get to choose one. Meaning that would be x3 the amount of work for Zos but literally play as you want regarding race. We can change it on the alters like we do with skill and attribute points now in the main cities. Like vampire and lycanthropy gets their skills refunded now.

As to keeping it lore friendly, scratching my head a little on that tbh with this idea.

Well maybe a race that is more inclined to a way of being like eg. Altmer leans for towards magic, they have a slight advantage over other magicka users, vice-versa for Regaurd for stam.

Kinda the same as what we have now, but with more options.....

Don't know about everyone else, but I still feel like the changes that will come have not really done much, just shuffled things around.

That is basically what I said. But he can't comprehend that simple concept.

Bouldercleave

CipherNine wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

...Or....each race has three sets of passives, one stam, one health one magicka, and you get to choose one. Meaning that would be x3 the amount of work for Zos but literally play as you want regarding race. We can change it on the alters like we do with skill and attribute points now in the main cities. Like vampire and lycanthropy gets their skills refunded now.

As to keeping it lore friendly, scratching my head a little on that tbh with this idea.

Well maybe a race that is more inclined to a way of being like eg. Altmer leans for towards magic, they have a slight advantage over other magicka users, vice-versa for Regaurd for stam.

Kinda the same as what we have now, but with more options.....

Don't know about everyone else, but I still feel like the changes that will come have not really done much, just shuffled things around.

That is basically what I said. But he can't comprehend that simple concept.

I comprehend it just fine - I just disagree with you. Mommy and Daddy should have taught you that it's OK to disagree.

Chaos2088

Ok by the look of it I am totally guilty of skim reading and posting.......read the whole thing Chaos! lol

CipherNine

Bouldercleave wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

...Or....each race has three sets of passives, one stam, one health one magicka, and you get to choose one. Meaning that would be x3 the amount of work for Zos but literally play as you want regarding race. We can change it on the alters like we do with skill and attribute points now in the main cities. Like vampire and lycanthropy gets their skills refunded now.

As to keeping it lore friendly, scratching my head a little on that tbh with this idea.

Well maybe a race that is more inclined to a way of being like eg. Altmer leans for towards magic, they have a slight advantage over other magicka users, vice-versa for Regaurd for stam.

Kinda the same as what we have now, but with more options.....

Don't know about everyone else, but I still feel like the changes that will come have not really done much, just shuffled things around.

That is basically what I said. But he can't comprehend that simple concept.

I comprehend it just fine - I just disagree with you. Mommy and Daddy should have taught you that it's OK to disagree.

No you don't, cause how you said things would be. Is nothing like the idea I put forth. The fact you think there would be OP passives is evident you don't comprehend it.

Arrodisia

Not only will this update of "Freedom" just shuffle the FOTM chars around, it will also have a hefty price tag for those with many alts. That's a high price tag to push onto the player base for this freedom, especially since balancing according to ZOS is included in our ESO plus. We didn't make the balancing mistakes. They did. Why are they reselling us balance? Even if people just want to pick non meta races and matching names now for their chars because it's less punishing now , they can't because they're charging us for it. They're charging us for their imbalance. no thanks.