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New Khajiit vs Altmer for magicka

rafaelcsmaia
rafaelcsmaia
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For those wondering the actual differences now, ive made a quick calculation using uesp's build simulator and manually adjusting the spell and magicka bonus that both races get. By getting the generated tooltips i could make a rough estimate of the actual dps difference on paper between them.

Bear in mind those are estimates, actual dps tests have a higher deviation due to rotation, crit luck, procs, etc. Also since khajiit's damage comes mostly from crit, any group buffs that increase your base crit modifier will inflate the damage towards the cat.

This test was made using siroria and bsw, both unprocced, only major sorcery activated

qJAf5Bg.png

This one is with siroria maxed and bsw procced.

0NO6Qzm.png

This last one is with aggressive horn on (Max mag and stam + 15% crit dmg)

WMFFEwp.png

A few observations:
  • Since I adjusted the new boni manually, a small deviation may exist from actual ingame values, but should be a maximum of less than 200 magicka or 20 spell power, nothing major.
  • This test was made using a sorcerer, any class that has crit modifier passives, like templar and nighblade, will lean towards khajiit a little bit
  • Khajiits have 75 magicka recovery vs altmers new magicka adrenaline rush, which translates to roughly 192 regen
  • All those tests considered that the new class max stats will be added after % increases (It wouldnt make sense if this new changes didnt work like that, in the end the changes would be minimal)
  • Tooltip analysis reflect the damage on paper, which is the best way to assume something works better, instead of relying on various parses with different deviations.

Conclusion: In an optimal raid setup, khajiit has a little less sustain and about the same dps as an altmer. The dps difference will range from 2.6% with only major sorcery to as little as 0.8% fully buffed

Edited by rafaelcsmaia on January 17, 2019 11:18AM
  • Alcast
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  • Masel
    Masel
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    It isnt only fast, it is also not comprehensive..
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  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    Masel wrote: »
    It isnt only fast, it is also not comprehensive..

    Well I did what I could with the tools I have, most of the time my calculations work ok for me.

    Feel free to add any information you consider important in this matter so I can improve it.

    Also its only a tooltip comparison considering crit modifiers, just to have an idea of it.
  • myskyrim26
    myskyrim26
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    So many numbers, so hard for me to get it (it is just me, not the people doing math). But what is the result? I have an Altmer sorc, can I reroll to Khajiit now? Can he be a magsorc, petsorc?
    Edited by myskyrim26 on January 17, 2019 12:53PM
  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

    That's and interesting point, I was assuming the new buffs would work like foods, addig in the end so they adjusted the amount of magicka you get (Mostly because Gilliam told it was meant to avoid insane stacking). You're right, if all % modifiers affect it, it will stay the same or even give more stats.

    Also regarding the sustain, it indeed plays a big factor, but it highly depends on your rotation and setup, thats why I didnt consider it (I play console so it's kinda tough to analyze combat metrics and drain/regen ratios), also I just wanted to make a rough comparison of pure dps output based on numbers, and only between khajiit and altmer. I'm still in doubt regarding breton with blue food vs altmer and regen food though.
  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    myskyrim26 wrote: »
    So many numbers, so hard for me to get it (it is just me, not the people doing math). But what is the result? I have an Altmer sorc, can I reroll to Khajiit now? Can he be a magsorc, petsorc?

    It will output more damage than on live, however sustain will be a little less than altmer and a lot less than breton.

    If you can sustain dmg gap is not that big.

    If you can't sustain, then you might lose more, but its still too early to be able to know, not until ppl test it on PTS.
  • Altaryan
    Altaryan
    Quick note on your calculations masel :
    Bosmer sustain may be affected by CPs, medium armor passives, etc. Giving them possibly a better effective Regen than redguard.
    Edited by Altaryan on January 17, 2019 1:10PM
  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    So I made 6 dunmer all to be pve Magicka DPS. The race is now more suited to stamina DPS. So to make up for that, I get a single race change token. Ezclap boys

    Ikr, some people have more than 10 toons, I feel sad for them
  • kiLLahweSPe
    kiLLahweSPe
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    Always that "Sustain" nonsense, every class can almost sustain infinite already. Thats more dumbing down and catering to the roleplayers who cried their *** Khajiit Sorcerer wasnt viable.
    Edited by kiLLahweSPe on January 17, 2019 4:01PM
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Always that "Sustain" nonsense, every class can almost sustain infinite already. Thats more dumbing down and catering to the roleplayers who cried their *** Khajiit Sorcerer wasnt viable.

    I hope you've given some thought to the idea that you also have to do comparable damage while sustaining. Simply not running out of stamina or magicka doesn't make you viable yet.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on January 17, 2019 4:09PM
  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    Always that "Sustain" nonsense, every class can almost sustain infinite already. Thats more dumbing down and catering to the roleplayers who cried their *** Khajiit Sorcerer wasnt viable.

    I hope you've given some thought to the idea that you also have to do comparable damage while sustaining. Simply not running out of stamina or magicka doesn't make you viable yet.

    Exactly, you can slap drinks + 3 regen glyphs and sustain as much button mashing as humanly possible, but you dps will still be less.
  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
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    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
    3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

    In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
    Formula is the same as above.

    Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:

    7rv9hZc.jpg

    Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.

    5qtz0N3.jpg

    With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

    Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:

    4qwYmTQ.jpg

    And the other way around:

    2feAwG0.jpg

    It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

    Really interesting thanks !

  • sneakymitchell
    sneakymitchell
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    Well a balanced that is needed. Very little difference with the two. Probably same with a non magic race.
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Dk Stam
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
    3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

    In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
    Formula is the same as above.

    Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:

    7rv9hZc.jpg

    Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.

    5qtz0N3.jpg

    With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

    Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:

    4qwYmTQ.jpg

    And the other way around:

    2feAwG0.jpg

    It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

    1. A change to flat stats is a buff or nerf depending on your role. If you had 40k health, switching to +2k instead of +12% means you will get less health than you had before. So it's situational. BUT it's way better for balance - it is going to help equalise. I think there should be no % amps in this game - 4 years ago they were fine but these days they are WAY too effective.

    3. Did you take Nords ultigen into consideration for sustain (if playing DK) or extra DPS via additional ultimates? It's also the only race that can increase the damage of a trial, via more frequent horns. That's a pretty big thing.
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
    3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

    In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
    Formula is the same as above.

    Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:

    7rv9hZc.jpg

    Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.

    5qtz0N3.jpg

    With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

    Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:

    4qwYmTQ.jpg

    And the other way around:

    2feAwG0.jpg

    It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

    @Masel So really they did a decent job of balancing?

    Seems for stam, RG and Woodelf have the best sustain, Dunmer and Orc have the most power and then Khajiit is sitting there in a weird, but very, very viable spot.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @Masel , I wonder if the comparison was done using any buffs? Or it's base values without any scaling from Minor Brutality, Minor Force or anything else?

    Also, I don't think that remark about the updated Adrenaline Rush being less effective holds true; a lot of DoT-like abilities are actually direct damage, no? I think Caltrops will consistently proc it, and Caltrops are always on the ground.
  • Svenja
    Svenja
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    I just don't understand how the flat stats are a buff compared to the 10% I get on the Live server now. That depends heavily on the build you run.
    @Masel Could you explain that please? The 10% from my racials buff everything - even the Max magicka from my food (and from the mundus stone, if I use that one). On my breton templar healer on Live, the 10% passive gives me ~3.5k Magicka because it gets added "at the end", after everything. Base value, Glyphs, Set bonuses, CP-%-Bonus, Food, Mundus...
    I rarely slot Inner Light because I usually don't have the space for it in a raid situation. So my only modifiers are the 20% from CP and 2-6% Undaunted mettle. And horn when it's active.
    So how can the 2k I get instead as a flat value be better? If they get added to the base value I have, they get buffed by 20% from CP, 6% Undaunted (max) and 10% Horn when it's active.
    That would net me 2790 or something. That's still worse than the 10% I get on live, and I didn't even add the Horn buff to my calculation for the 3.5k on Live.
    I don't get it.

    Even with the formula for the Max Ressources you posted in this thead here I can't wrap my head around how it will be a buff for people who aren't running around with like 25k Max ressources (which is basically no one) or people who just can't stack a lot of modifiers (Inner Light, mages Guild Skill, Warden Ulti...). That's certainly not the case for everyone.:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online

    Maximum Magicka =((142 * Level + 858 + 111 * Attribute Flat Magicka + Item Flat Magicka + Set Flat Magicka)*(1 + 0.004 * min(CP.Magicka, 100) - 0.00002 * pow(min(CP.Magicka, 100), 2)) + Food Flat Magicka + Mundus Flat Magicka + Skill2 Flat Magicka)*(1 + Skill % Magicka + Buff % Magicka)

    What am I missing here, or did i missunderstand you?
    Edited by Svenja on January 18, 2019 3:35PM
    PC | EU
    Svea Rochaud | Templar Healer | AD
    Flawless Conqueror - Immortal Redeemer - Tick-Tock-Tormentor
    ~ Mind Control ~ Beyond Infinity ~
  • katorga
    katorga
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    Svenja wrote: »
    I just don't understand how the flat stats are a buff compared to the 10% I get on the Live server now. That depends heavily on the build you run.

    Long term, flat stats are a "nerf", sort of. I think they are trying to get ahead of power inflation over time, re-implementing soft caps through another mechanism. Over time, I would expect ALL positive percentage increases to be replaced with flat amounts, for example, Nightblade's siphoning passive would go from +8% mag to +1000 mag.

    Percentage reductions would stay the same because of diminishing returns, and percentage heal increases like Major mending would stay the same because a flat amount would overbuff small heal over time ticks.

    Once the percentage increases are gone, you are open to really expanding what you do with armor sets. Instead of one line of being 1096 stat , 129 regen or damage, you can make unique, new sets based on more than just the 5th piece. It opens up things like Necropotene II with three lines of 2000 mag and a 4000 mag fifth piece, something totally unbalanced in the current setup. Progression through gear has more long term, marketable viability to keep players interested.

    Face it, if progression means logging in each new DLC to allocate your 30 new CP when you are hundreds of CP over cap, and grind a bit for 1 or 2 sets that are only marginally different from what you already have is no way to keep a player base long term.



    Edited by katorga on January 18, 2019 4:12PM
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
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    I don't mind the flat stats at all. The only thing that hurts is the fact that Dunmer are now ranked 4th in damage as mDKs.

    You know how many people have Dunmer mDKs?

    Why, ZOS? :'(

    We didn't make fire-slinging Dunmer mDKs just so that they could be converted into stamina characters.

    Edit: Sorry for derailing. I'd prefer a khajiit sorc over Altmer. Because [snip] those disgusting high elf snobs.
    Edited by Savos_Saren on January 18, 2019 5:08PM
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Svenja
    Svenja
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    I am not argueing that the changes don't make sense, I just got confused because Masel wrote in several topics that people on the forums need to understand the 2k flat stats are buffs and not nerfs.
    In my eyes, that's just not the case and I would like to understand the reasoning behind that claim, because people already tend to quote and preach that and for my characters, it's simply not the case as I see it. Depends on the build tho. :) (But you need quite a lot of modifiers for this to become a buff.)

    It's not that I don't like that change, the more %-modifiers the system has, the less understandable it becomes. For a newer player it's very unclear where his stats come from, I get questions like "The game shows me I get 111 Magicka for one Attribute point, but when I really allocate it, it's way more, like 160. How come?" quite often. The game doesn't explain that stuff very well.
    Edited by Svenja on January 18, 2019 5:09PM
    PC | EU
    Svea Rochaud | Templar Healer | AD
    Flawless Conqueror - Immortal Redeemer - Tick-Tock-Tormentor
    ~ Mind Control ~ Beyond Infinity ~
  • sage2000
    sage2000
    ✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    definetely became better.

    You've asserted this but as far as I can see you haven't demonstrated it. It seems to me like this would only be the case if you were running with a low stat pool prior to the changes. Otherwise it's a nerf.

    As long as the races are relatively close to each other (or offer other offsetting benefits, like Breton sustain) I'm not too bothered by that, but no need to mollify people by telling them it's a buff unless you can prove that. If you can, great.
    Edited by sage2000 on January 18, 2019 10:03PM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    sage2000 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    definetely became better.

    You've asserted this but as far as I can see you haven't demonstrated it. It seems to me like this would only be the case if you were running with a low stat pool prior to the changes. Otherwise it's a nerf.

    As long as the races are relatively close to each other (or offer other offsetting benefits, like Breton sustain) I'm not too bothered by that, but no need to mollify people by telling them it's a buff unless you can prove that. If you can, great.

    What you said is exactly what my point was. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

    QP7Qi7L.jpg

    This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
    This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

    But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

    There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it.

    Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further.

    I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

    To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
    Edited by Masel on January 18, 2019 11:25PM
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • sage2000
    sage2000
    ✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    sage2000 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    definetely became better.

    You've asserted this but as far as I can see you haven't demonstrated it. It seems to me like this would only be the case if you were running with a low stat pool prior to the changes. Otherwise it's a nerf.

    As long as the races are relatively close to each other (or offer other offsetting benefits, like Breton sustain) I'm not too bothered by that, but no need to mollify people by telling them it's a buff unless you can prove that. If you can, great.

    What you said is exactly what my point was. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

    QP7Qi7L.jpg

    This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
    This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

    But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

    There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it.

    Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further.

    I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

    To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

    Thank you for clarifying your thought process. Honestly, I hope your approach is correct, but since others have put forth conflicting models I guess we'll have to wait for the PTS before we know anything definitive.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    sage2000 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    sage2000 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    definetely became better.

    You've asserted this but as far as I can see you haven't demonstrated it. It seems to me like this would only be the case if you were running with a low stat pool prior to the changes. Otherwise it's a nerf.

    As long as the races are relatively close to each other (or offer other offsetting benefits, like Breton sustain) I'm not too bothered by that, but no need to mollify people by telling them it's a buff unless you can prove that. If you can, great.

    What you said is exactly what my point was. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

    QP7Qi7L.jpg

    This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
    This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

    But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

    There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it.

    Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further.

    I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

    To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

    Thank you for clarifying your thought process. Honestly, I hope your approach is correct, but since others have put forth conflicting models I guess we'll have to wait for the PTS before we know anything definitive.

    My model is exactly the one from UESP, and that is based on millions of ingame data observations. Any "subjective" tests that arent based on that i take with a grain of salt...
    Edited by Masel on January 19, 2019 12:34AM
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
    ✭✭✭
    Why not give a dunmer something like base extra 100 flame damage to all flame damage skills to help makeup for the damage loss that MagDK's received. Because if not then I might as well change to either a Khajiit or Altmer. Even better would be to give us extra damage within the DK's own skill line to help makeup for the lost but they need to add it to all of our flame damaging abilities and not just 1 or 2 of them.
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
    ✭✭✭
    Hotdog_23 wrote: »
    Why not give a dunmer something like base extra 100 flame damage to all flame damage skills to help makeup for the damage loss that MagDK's received. Because if not then I might as well change to either a Khajiit or Altmer. Even better would be to give us extra damage within the DK's own skill line to help makeup for the lost but they need to add it to all of our flame damaging abilities and not just 1 or 2 of them.

    And if they buff your flame damage as DK it only makes khajiit and altmer even better. If you want to buff that specific combination you should look at the final damage results on monday and propose a change that is a mix of buffs to DK and Dunmer and you have to look on the impact that could possibly have on all other combinations.

    Also you should lower the distance between the races to a point where each of them is a great choice instead of just buffing Dunmer to be the best. (And yes I know that you did not say that you wanted to do this. I just wanted to add it here as a reminder)
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