How much do the three factions appreciate foreigners / individuals who changed sides?

Seraphayel

Hey there,

I am very curious about this topic and would like to hear your opinion on this. How do you think judge the three factions members from other races / factions that just pledged loyalty to their cause?

I am usually playing a "foreign" race, e.g at the moment a Khajiit in the Daggerfall Covenant, prior to that a Dark Elf in the Aldmeri Dominion. Based on your opinion and experiences with the faction storylines, how much would the DC appreciate me as a Khajiit joining their forces? Are there racial differences worth mentioning (Altmer racism etc.)?

ArchMikem

I have three Khajiit, all pact. When it comes to them, i think the animosity doesnt reside with Race. Take the Nords, they dont care what you are as long as youre decent in a fight. The Argonians hold no ill will towards all.

We just ignore the Dunmer.

Dracan_Fontom

The only instance of this I can recall in the game is in Grahtwood, on the southern coast heading towards Southpoint(?). A questline concerning a recently migrated tribe of Argonian are located here and the Dominion has you investigate the tribe because they are suspicious of the tribe being spies if I remember correctly.

By this logic, I would get that in lore all three Alliances would be wary of the other races aiding them in their side of the war.

TiaFrye

I have all my characters in the Covenant and it's mostly altmer, but also bosmer, nord, argonian, imperial, and one single breton which is cosplay character.

There is a lot NPC in each faction's cities that is 'foreign', but not all of them are refuges. Hell, one of the noble houses of Rivenspire has an altmer count, bosmer and kajjit. So DC mostly good with it.

Robo_Hobo

Bretons, Redguards and Orcs don't necessarily have any particular reason to hold distrust for the Khajiit, other than the Khajiit's own stereotype reputation of being thieves and smugglers, and their Dominion affiliation.

Knehaten Flu did a number on the royal family of Wayrest before Emeric though, so some Bretons might blame Khajiit for somehow spreading it all the way there, even though they didn't create the flu.

With Bretons being all about backalley deals and all, I'm sure they aren't new to the concepts of working with foreigners for trade. You can probably win over most Orcs with displays of strength and skill, same for the Redguards, although Crown Redguards will probably always hate your guts unless you personally help them.

If you grew up in Daggerfall territory, all the better, but if you didn't, then it would be a point of questioning of why you would choose to help the Covenant when the Altmer helped save your people during the worst times of the Knehaten Flu. You could come up with a few answers for why that is.

Dracan_Fontom

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Bretons, Redguards and Orcs don't necessarily have any particular reason to hold distrust for the Khajiit, other than the Khajiit's own stereotype reputation of being thieves and smugglers, and their Dominion affiliation.

Knehaten Flu did a number on the royal family of Wayrest before Emeric though, so some Bretons might blame Khajiit for somehow spreading it all the way there, even though they didn't create the flu.

With Bretons being all about backalley deals and all, I'm sure they aren't new to the concepts of working with foreigners for trade. You can probably win over most Orcs with displays of strength and skill, same for the Redguards, although Crown Redguards will probably always hate your guts unless you personally help them.

If you grew up in Daggerfall territory, all the better, but if you didn't, then it would be a point of questioning of why you would choose to help the Covenant when the Altmer helped save your people during the worst times of the Knehaten Flu. You could come up with a few answers for why that is.

I would think Argonians would be more likely to be blame for the flu rather than the Khajiit.

AlienSlof

To be honest, the alliances don't make a whole lot of sense anyway, and are created by proximity to each other on the map. Khajiit and Bosmer are old enemies, so too are Orcs and Bretons, yet they are thrown in together and expected to suddenly get along after centuries of enmity. Why would former slaves want anything to do with Dunmer? I wouldn't!

Dracan_Fontom

AlienSlof wrote: »

To be honest, the alliances don't make a whole lot of sense anyway, and are created by proximity to each other on the map. Khajiit and Bosmer are old enemies, so too are Orcs and Bretons, yet they are thrown in together and expected to suddenly get along after centuries of enmity. Why would former slaves want anything to do with Dunmer? I wouldn't!

The Pact was form in desperation when the Akaviri invaded Eastern Tamriel.

As for the Bosmeri/Khajiit and Breton/Orsimer/Redguards... I'm not exactly sure why.

Thraben

Seraphayel wrote: »

Hey there,

I am very curious about this topic and would like to hear your opinion on this. How do you think judge the three factions members from other races / factions that just pledged loyalty to their cause?

I am usually playing a "foreign" race, e.g at the moment a Khajiit in the Daggerfall Covenant, prior to that a Dark Elf in the Aldmeri Dominion. Based on your opinion and experiences with the faction storylines, how much would the DC appreciate me as a Khajiit joining their forces? Are there racial differences worth mentioning (Altmer racism etc.)?

Well, one of my Chars is a Telvanni fighting for the Covenant. However, we have also an INDORIL fighting for the Covenant in our guild - and this is much harder to explain


Khajiit:
The setting makes it clear that DC ist the most open minded faction. But toleration does not imply trust: Bretons have a history of weak loyalities, and if Bretons don´t even trust one another, why should they trust a Khajiit? That being said, a Khajiit would have good reasons to fight for the Covenant, because it provides the greatest degree of freedom for its citizens. Fighting for the Dominion means fighting for your home, but also fighting for a future where strange elves want to teach you "how to behave properly".
Things get really interesting if Khajiit fight for the Pact: Khajiit find Argonians disgusting, and they are the main slavery target for the Dunmer as long as those can´t enslave their Argonian "allies". Only the Nord are not outright hostile to them, and even they think of them as thieves, skooma dealers and notorious liers.

Argonians:
They have every reason to hate the Dark Elves so that it´s reasonable to fight for other alliances.

Orsimer:
Though no one really likes them, most people would trust them once they have pledged allegiance to their cause. Additionally, they have VERY good reasons not to ally with the Bretons.

Humans:
Though a redguard may be perceived as more trustworthy than an Imperial, most won´t be inclined to join the Dominion except for reasons like love, greed, or opportunism.

Dunmer:
In theory, non-pact dunmer like House Telvanni or Ashlanders want to see the pact destroyed. In practice, they are even more xenophobic than the main dunmer society, so it would be rather hard to join a foreign alliance. On the other hand, some Hlaalu would sell out their mother if the price is right, and most Telvanni don´t give a s..t about political alliances, so you could see them fighting for another alliance just because the Dwemer ruin they want to investigate is in its territory, or just because some Indoril disturbed their research 300 years ago.

Altmer:
Verandis actually fights for the Covenant, and so could other "native" High Elves of High Rock like the Direnni. Finding reasons to fight for the pact would be hard. But they could be the same as for a Telvanni.

Bosmer:
Like the Khajiit, freedom is often more important to them than the concept of "homeland".

Merlin13KAGL

I've always taken issue with the required Alliance loyalty based strictly on location in the first place. I was always of the mind that everyone should begin neutral, or perhaps slightly aligned to their place of origin (and this Alliance).

Beyond that, actions, both the character's and the alliances', would ultimately be the determining factor regarding where loyalty truly lays.

Birthplace alone does not automatically inspire allegiance. One does not automatically align with a country's actions or methods simply because they were born there. This rings true now more than ever.

I don't think any faction would take issue with a loyal fighter taking up arms, so long as the loyalty was proven and consistent.

If nothing else, a body is a body ~ one more target that is not you.

eso_nya

To me the alliances feel like "enemy of my enemy" relationships and in that, they'd take anyone fighting for their cause. If u havent done, do the "Honors Rest" quest in orsinium, shows how much the the dc factions (should) trust each other.

Nyladreas

ArchMikem wrote: »

I have three Khajiit, all pact. When it comes to them, i think the animosity doesnt reside with Race. Take the Nords, they dont care what you are as long as youre decent in a fight. The Argonians hold no ill will towards all.

We just ignore the Dunmer.

Dunmer are okay with them too. It's really just two houses and then those influenced by them.

With that being said... I'm a pact Khajiit too, and there's no other faction I'd rather be.

EvilAutoTech

Thraben wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Hey there,

I am very curious about this topic and would like to hear your opinion on this. How do you think judge the three factions members from other races / factions that just pledged loyalty to their cause?

I am usually playing a "foreign" race, e.g at the moment a Khajiit in the Daggerfall Covenant, prior to that a Dark Elf in the Aldmeri Dominion. Based on your opinion and experiences with the faction storylines, how much would the DC appreciate me as a Khajiit joining their forces? Are there racial differences worth mentioning (Altmer racism etc.)?

Well, one of my Chars is a Telvanni fighting for the Covenant. However, we have also an INDORIL fighting for the Covenant in our guild - and this is much harder to explain


Khajiit:
The setting makes it clear that DC ist the most open minded faction. But toleration does not imply trust: Bretons have a history of weak loyalities, and if Bretons don´t even trust one another, why should they trust a Khajiit? That being said, a Khajiit would have good reasons to fight for the Covenant, because it provides the greatest degree of freedom for its citizens. Fighting for the Dominion means fighting for your home, but also fighting for a future where strange elves want to teach you "how to behave properly".
Things get really interesting if Khajiit fight for the Pact: Khajiit find Argonians disgusting, and they are the main slavery target for the Dunmer as long as those can´t enslave their Argonian "allies". Only the Nord are not outright hostile to them, and even they think of them as thieves, skooma dealers and notorious liers.

Argonians:
They have every reason to hate the Dark Elves so that it´s reasonable to fight for other alliances.

Orsimer:
Though no one really likes them, most people would trust them once they have pledged allegiance to their cause. Additionally, they have VERY good reasons not to ally with the Bretons.

Humans:
Though a redguard may be perceived as more trustworthy than an Imperial, most won´t be inclined to join the Dominion except for reasons like love, greed, or opportunism.

Dunmer:
In theory, non-pact dunmer like House Telvanni or Ashlanders want to see the pact destroyed. In practice, they are even more xenophobic than the main dunmer society, so it would be rather hard to join a foreign alliance. On the other hand, some Hlaalu would sell out their mother if the price is right, and most Telvanni don´t give a s..t about political alliances, so you could see them fighting for another alliance just because the Dwemer ruin they want to investigate is in its territory, or just because some Indoril disturbed their research 300 years ago.

Altmer:
Verandis actually fights for the Covenant, and so could other "native" High Elves of High Rock like the Direnni. Finding reasons to fight for the pact would be hard. But they could be the same as for a Telvanni.

Bosmer:
Like the Khajiit, freedom is often more important to them than the concept of "homeland".

Your post makes it seem like you believe only Redguard are human.

What of Breton, Imperial and Nord?

Ertosi

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Hey there,

I am very curious about this topic and would like to hear your opinion on this. How do you think judge the three factions members from other races / factions that just pledged loyalty to their cause?

I am usually playing a "foreign" race, e.g at the moment a Khajiit in the Daggerfall Covenant, prior to that a Dark Elf in the Aldmeri Dominion. Based on your opinion and experiences with the faction storylines, how much would the DC appreciate me as a Khajiit joining their forces? Are there racial differences worth mentioning (Altmer racism etc.)?

Well, one of my Chars is a Telvanni fighting for the Covenant. However, we have also an INDORIL fighting for the Covenant in our guild - and this is much harder to explain


Khajiit:
The setting makes it clear that DC ist the most open minded faction. But toleration does not imply trust: Bretons have a history of weak loyalities, and if Bretons don´t even trust one another, why should they trust a Khajiit? That being said, a Khajiit would have good reasons to fight for the Covenant, because it provides the greatest degree of freedom for its citizens. Fighting for the Dominion means fighting for your home, but also fighting for a future where strange elves want to teach you "how to behave properly".
Things get really interesting if Khajiit fight for the Pact: Khajiit find Argonians disgusting, and they are the main slavery target for the Dunmer as long as those can´t enslave their Argonian "allies". Only the Nord are not outright hostile to them, and even they think of them as thieves, skooma dealers and notorious liers.

Argonians:
They have every reason to hate the Dark Elves so that it´s reasonable to fight for other alliances.

Orsimer:
Though no one really likes them, most people would trust them once they have pledged allegiance to their cause. Additionally, they have VERY good reasons not to ally with the Bretons.

Humans:
Though a redguard may be perceived as more trustworthy than an Imperial, most won´t be inclined to join the Dominion except for reasons like love, greed, or opportunism.

Dunmer:
In theory, non-pact dunmer like House Telvanni or Ashlanders want to see the pact destroyed. In practice, they are even more xenophobic than the main dunmer society, so it would be rather hard to join a foreign alliance. On the other hand, some Hlaalu would sell out their mother if the price is right, and most Telvanni don´t give a s..t about political alliances, so you could see them fighting for another alliance just because the Dwemer ruin they want to investigate is in its territory, or just because some Indoril disturbed their research 300 years ago.

Altmer:
Verandis actually fights for the Covenant, and so could other "native" High Elves of High Rock like the Direnni. Finding reasons to fight for the pact would be hard. But they could be the same as for a Telvanni.

Bosmer:
Like the Khajiit, freedom is often more important to them than the concept of "homeland".

Your post makes it seem like you believe only Redguard are human.

What of Breton, Imperial and Nord?

Not sure about him but my main, an Orc, is happy to be DC and often boasts how proud he is that Orcs have joined forces with the only two real races of Men. If pressed, he explains that Nords are sissy little milk drinkers and Imperials are just High Elves with clipped ears. He's equally proud to say their alliance is the only one without any of "those stinkin' elven races"... don't try to explain to him where Orcs came from.

Varana

Many regions also have members of other races living there since generations, esp. on the edges and in the cities. So while it may not be very common, race alone doesn't mean you're immediately seen as one of the enemy.

Also, in many regions, the Alliance War is not the topic dominating everyday life. It's something that's mostly happening far away in Cyrodiil. There are exceptions but not everywhere.

Actual defectors - people coming from the regions held by another alliance, and trying to serve in the military of their new alliance - will most probably have greater difficulty.

Urvoth

Considering there’s NPCs of opposing alliances within each other’s capitol cities, I don’t think they care too much.

Seraphayel

Ah so my Khajiit can feel save and welcomed in the Daggerfall Covenant - puuuuurrfect.

phairdon

Makes no difference to me. People can play whatever race they choose, in whichever alliance they choose, as far as I am concerned.

gepe87

Im waiting racial update to change my AD MagSorc Dunmer to Bosmer and still be a min-maxer for both pve and pvp. Love the Dominion but not so much being Altmer.

EvilCroc

One of my alts is argonian in AD. She rejects the Pact with "former" slavers. And she is shadowscale in DB.
And I'm going to create a Direnni Altmer in DC when the Necromancer class will be released.
One last problem for me I have no Idea about proper lore background about covenant race character in EP. Reachmen breton will not fight for Pact. Orc? Redguard?

Varana

There are definitely Orc strongholds in Skyrim, so the character could come from one of those.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Orc_Strongholds
And it wouldn't be impossible to imagine a few of those strongholds in some regions of Morrowind at the Skyrim border.

Or the character could just come from a family of Orcs or Redguards who've been living in "EP territory" for generations. There are a few people of all races scattered throughout the cities of every alliance. There is a Redguard mage and a trader in Mournhold, for instance.

supaskrub

Thraben wrote: »

Khajiit:
The setting makes it clear that DC ist the most open minded faction. But toleration does not imply trust: Bretons have a history of weak loyalities, and if Bretons don´t even trust one another, why should they trust a Khajiit? That being said, a Khajiit would have good reasons to fight for the Covenant, because it provides the greatest degree of freedom for its citizens. Fighting for the Dominion means fighting for your home, but also fighting for a future where strange elves want to teach you "how to behave properly".
Things get really interesting if Khajiit fight for the Pact: Khajiit find Argonians disgusting, and they are the main slavery target for the Dunmer as long as those can´t enslave their Argonian "allies". Only the Nord are not outright hostile to them, and even they think of them as thieves, skooma dealers and notorious liars.

It’s official.... I am a Nord.

ebls_BR

Really? in no normal cincurstances a Dunmer would be accepted in AD or an Altmer in EP (unless they were spies). Their religion is so different and conflicted that both would even fight after life. Did you ever play another TES besides Skyrim? Altmers and Dunmers are almost antagonic...

A Nord also rarely would fight for an Elf (they always fought elves for survival and land), and Redguard have a history fighting elves for thousands of years, so they distrust elves.

And you can see Khajiits slaves in Stonefalls, Deshan and Vvardenfell, so... Do you really think a Khajiit would fight for a slave master when on the other side you have a queen offering equality among her race and the Khajiits?

You may have exceptions, like Verandis, but this cannot explain having a legion of altmers, khajiits or bretons in EP or Dunmers, nords and redguards in AD, like we see today in PVP.

Races like Argonians and Orcs, have all the reason to fight for any other faction.

Ashlanders and Telvanni may hate the Ebonheart Pact, but do you know who they hate more? An Altmer who follow the AD and pray for Auri-El. If the AD would win the 3 banner wars, Tribunal and Daedric cult would be abolished, period.

Seraphayel

So Daggerfall Covenant seems to be the "nicest" or most ethical / open minded overall due to the absence of Elves... interesting.

Varana

ebls_BR wrote: »

Really? in no normal cincurstances a Dunmer would be accepted in AD or an Altmer in EP (unless they were spies). Their religion is so different and conflicted that both would even fight after life. Did you ever play another TES besides Skyrim? Altmers and Dunmers are almost antagonic...

First, race does not imply culture or religion. In Morrowind, you have Dunmer in the Imperial Cult and even a Breton in the Tribunal Temple. Dunmer who were born outside of Morrowind, will have a different culture from native Morrowinders, and can easily follow a different religion. Also, conversions are a thing.

Second, yes, in theory, Dunmer and Altmer don't get along particularly well. In "reality", that's not so clear-cut. Even the Telvanni take retainers from all over Tamriel, including Altmer. Apart from that, the Dominion is not only Altmer.

People find ways to get along with each other, even in spite of "ideological enmity".

ebls_BR

Seraphayel wrote: »

So Daggerfall Covenant seems to be the "nicest" or most ethical / open minded overall due to the absence of Elves... interesting.

Yep, that's why even being an Argonian fan and having the treacherous race of all (Bretons), I play for DC. As I said in another topic, men cannot trust elves.

Every elf race enslave another race: Dunmers enslave Argonians, Khajiits, humans and even other elves; Ayleids enslaved humans and beasts races; even Altmers enslaved other groups (goblings). Through history they praticed genocide, eugeny, magical and genetic experiences with other races, they formed pacts with Daedra and evil creatures to keep a racial dominancy; etc.
Humans did a lot of horrible things too (Alessian Empire slaughtered Ayleids; Talos used the Numidian; Redguards killed all lefted hand elves). But it was always for survival and never was a racial supremacy thing...

To be honest the most civilized, tolerant and prosperous empire was the 3rd Empire (3rd Era), where any race would be really treated as equal.

Thraben

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Your post makes it seem like you believe only Redguard are human.

What of Breton, Imperial and Nord?

The whole sentence was: most [humans]....

Generally, martial cultures like Redguard, Nord or Colovian likely trust a non-human when s/he has earned their respect; but only then. All of them have also a racial bias against Alliances with Elves.

Bretons and Nibenese, on the other hand, make friends more quickly, but their friendship does not generate the same level of loyality. Thus, they are more opportunistic and don´t need "good" reasons to team up with foreign alliances.

---

I see no problem if a non- Nord human joins the pact if they have some relationship with Nords, but a Khajiit in the Pact would require a lot of explanation: It is both against instinct (Khajiit despise Argonians) and against common sense (Dunmer enslave Khajiit).

An Orc, though, might be even attracted by the values of the Pact: They have a history of "good fights" with Pact peoples, who have never betrayed and backstabbed them the way the Bretons or Altmer have. The Code of Malacath shares a lot of ideals with those of the Pact, while the Orsinium Orcs have shown multiple times that they are not immune to the "corrupting" influences of the High Rock society (in Malacath´s view).

Azurya

Since Open Beta I started with a dunmer in the Pact, she got stuck in the argonian village at Mournhold and ZOS was not able to get her freed for weeks, so I started another char, again a pact dunmer, she got stuck somewhere in stairs, and again that was it.
Then I started in the covenant, 2017 I leveled my two pact dunmeri to toplevel. One got the job as my banking char, the other joined the pact forces in Cyrodil, no problems, though many look a bit strange whenever I call for the battle in the chat, but yeah what can I do......
Cya later today on the battle field!

ebls_BR

Varana wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

Really? in no normal cincurstances a Dunmer would be accepted in AD or an Altmer in EP (unless they were spies). Their religion is so different and conflicted that both would even fight after life. Did you ever play another TES besides Skyrim? Altmers and Dunmers are almost antagonic...

First, race does not imply culture or religion. In Morrowind, you have Dunmer in the Imperial Cult and even a Breton in the Tribunal Temple. Dunmer who were born outside of Morrowind, will have a different culture from native Morrowinders, and can easily follow a different religion. Also, conversions are a thing.

Second, yes, in theory, Dunmer and Altmer don't get along particularly well. In "reality", that's not so clear-cut. Even the Telvanni take retainers from all over Tamriel, including Altmer. Apart from that, the Dominion is not only Altmer.

People find ways to get along with each other, even in spite of "ideological enmity".

Not in our real world, but say that to a Khajiit when his/her birth, species and all their life is guided by the lunnar lattice. In that circunstance, try to convince a Khajiit in not follow the belief of Jone and Jode.
Or explain to an Argonian why they shouldn't pray for their hist or Sithis (all their life is connected to both).
Try to explain that (religion and race are not fundamentally interconnected) to a Chimer or a Trinimac follower being tranformed in a dunmer or Orc independent of what he or she believe. In TES world, race is fundamental intertwined with religion, culture, which god or entity you pray.

As I said before, you can find exceptions (mage and fighters guild members, for instance), but a few examples wouldn't break the rule (cough..., explorer pack).

"Dunmer and Altmer don't get allong" lol. In every other game they usually distrust or hate each other.

Cously

DC would accept everyone regardless of their race, it's just how the faction is structured, although...to be really honest I'm not convinced about the acceptance of/by orcs of the covenant but that wouldn't be because of race but history.

AD would have only altmers with khajiit pets if was not under the Queen, she stroke me as a compassionate leader that would accept anyone willing to make a better world with rainbows and unicorns.

EP wouldn't trust anyone of any race other than theirs. If you look at the own alliance it's not exactly roses and champagne with Nords, Dunmer and Argonians, each distrust the other and are together not because ideology but as "enemy of my enemy is my friend". If they can't fully trust members of different races inside their own faction races can you imagine "outlanders". That makes it the most dramatic and interesting faction in my opinion although I'm a DC loyalist.

Varana

ebls_BR wrote: »

Not in our real world, but say that to a Khajiit when his/her birth, species and all their life is guided by the lunnar lattice. In that circunstance, try to convince a Khajiit in not follow the belief of Jone and Jode.
Or explain to an Argonian why they shouldn't pray for their hist or Sithis (all their life is connected to both).
Try to explain that (religion and race are not fundamentally interconnected) to a Chimer or a Trinimac follower being tranformed in a dunmer or Orc independent of what he or she believe. In TES world, race is fundamental intertwined with religion, culture, which god or entity you pray.

The Chimer or transformed Trinimac followers are ancient history (if the latter should even be taken remotely literally). "Modern-day" Dunmer and Orcs (even in 2E ESO) haven't experienced either. So with a few exceptions like the Tribunal themselves, or maybe Divayth "Mary Sue" Fyr, I can't explain that to anyone because they're all dead. And those remaining candidates don't strike me as particularly fervent ideologues.

Race and culture and religion are usually intertwined. But there is always room for alternative lives. It is not hardcoded; not even with Khajiit or Argonians. (Quite a few stories revolve around Argonians essentially losing their connection to the Hist.) That's also one of the advantages of polytheism - you can easily incorporate other gods into your personal belief system. Having your form determined by the moons, doesn't preclude you from praying to various other gods (the Khajiit have a whole pantheon of their own, after all, with several deities overlapping with the Tamrielic mainstream). Most importantly, being a Khajiit or even following their religion, doesn't determine political alliance or place of residence. Khajiit can famously be found all over Tamriel, and a Khajiit living and trading in Solitude has no meaningful connections to the Aldmeri Dominion.

We can see a pattern of common beliefs, allegiances, and cultures. But they are not pre-determined and inescapable.