Max Mag vs. Spell Dmg

Jakx

Where are we at now with the balance between max magicka and having more spell damage?

Example.. Arcane Jewelry vs. Infused with spell damage.

Is there a point we are giving up on max magicka in favor of spell damage, ie. mundus choices, jewelry trait choices etc. Just wondering the math, thought processes, etc for choosing.

Akinos

Spell damage gives more damage, the only reason I ever go for max magicka anymore is on classes that use shields and have a max magicka passive. And for me thats just my magblade. Otherwise I almost always go for spell damage.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Lots of buffs in the game work off damage. Take Blue Betty from a Magdens skills. 20% Spell Damage buff.

If you're 50/5 MaxStat/Dmg then you will get ~ 10% increased damage from this buff.
If you're say... 30/7 then you get ~ 14% increased damage from this.

I haven't got any solid calculations about more in-game translations of this idea though.

JobooAGS

Thief mundus while stacking max magicka. There are more multipliers for max mag than for spell dmg. Like inner light (5%) mages guild passives (2% per), cp (20%) and warhorn (10%) if you are a nb you get 8% more magicka just for slotting a siphoning ability. If you are a sorc, for slotting bound agis you get 8% max magicka. Spell damage only has 20% from major sorcery and 10% from minor sorcery (templar)

Akinos

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thief mundus while stacking max magicka. There are more multipliers for max mag than for spell dmg. Like inner light (5%) mages guild passives (2% per), cp (20%) and warhorn (10%) if you are a nb you get 8% more magicka just for slotting a siphoning ability. If you are a sorc, for slotting bound agis you get 8% max magicka. Spell damage only has 20% from major sorcery and 10% from minor sorcery (templar)

Warhorn is nice when it's used, but lets be real here. You are more likely to have continuous attack from taking a resource (which is 10% more spell/weapon damage)then you are to have warhorn which only last for what? like 30 seconds?
And most people are realistically only going to have 2 maybe 3 mage guild skills slotted on one bar. So we're looking at what, 6 from mages guild maybe, 5 from inner light, 20% from CP and 8% of your a sorc or nightblade. that's 31% more max magicka? not inlcuding the mage mundus or if your a NB or a sorc.

Meanwhile a templar for example, can get up to 40% more spell damage with continuous and have it way more often without having to use ult on warhorn. Also that 10% from minor sorcery affects all allies around them.
I still think it's more beneficial to stack spell damage on non damage shield using classes like DK and Templar, imo.

Jakx

Yea its just curious because using the UESP build editor and swapping out spell damage for max magicka in some cases is an "effective spell damage" loss according to their calculations, specifically swapping from arcane to infused jewelry. The editor on my build at least still likes spell dmg over max magicka mundus.

Akinos wrote: »

Meanwhile a templar for example, can get up to 40% more spell damage with continuous and have it way more often without having to use ult on warhorn. Also that 10% from minor sorcery affects all allies around them.
I still think it's more beneficial to stack spell damage on non damage shield using classes like DK and Templar, imo.

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

ccmedaddy

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

WrathOfInnos

What is your race and class? Do you wear 5-1-1 armor weight? Do you expect to have the Warhorn buff? Do you have the Major and Minor sorcery buffs? Do you slot inner light or any other Mage’s guild skills (with passives)? And are you at least CP 300? All of these affect your answer.

Chelo

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

JobooAGS

Akinos wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thief mundus while stacking max magicka. There are more multipliers for max mag than for spell dmg. Like inner light (5%) mages guild passives (2% per), cp (20%) and warhorn (10%) if you are a nb you get 8% more magicka just for slotting a siphoning ability. If you are a sorc, for slotting bound agis you get 8% max magicka. Spell damage only has 20% from major sorcery and 10% from minor sorcery (templar)

Warhorn is nice when it's used, but lets be real here. You are more likely to have continuous attack from taking a resource (which is 10% more spell/weapon damage)then you are to have warhorn which only last for what? like 30 seconds?
And most people are realistically only going to have 2 maybe 3 mage guild skills slotted on one bar. So we're looking at what, 6 from mages guild maybe, 5 from inner light, 20% from CP and 8% of your a sorc or nightblade. that's 31% more max magicka? not inlcuding the mage mundus or if your a NB or a sorc.

Meanwhile a templar for example, can get up to 40% more spell damage with continuous and have it way more often without having to use ult on warhorn. Also that 10% from minor sorcery affects all allies around them.
I still think it's more beneficial to stack spell damage on non damage shield using classes like DK and Templar, imo.

I was going from a pve perspective which I failed to mention. My bad. In a pvp perspective, you are right. Spell damage can be more important than max mag

Major sorcery and cp cancel each other out (20%) nb and sorc (also warden if you count northern storm) + 1 mage guild (sorry for double counting the single mage guild later) and continous attack cancel each other out (10% each)

so it leaves minor sorcery (10%), sorc abilities if you are a sorc (2% each) and 10% master assassin for nbs for a single attack for spell damage
vs
warhorn (10%, not always 100% active, many cases 0% active) inner light, meteor and maybe entropy (7-11% max mag. 5 from inner light 2-6 from mage guild passives)

Edit 1: This is what I get for browsing on "recent discussions" I failed to notice that this was in the pvp block. Completely ignore me

brandonv516

Consider this:

In no CP you lose about 5k Magicka.
In no CP you lose 0 Spell Damage.

This is why Stamina Weapon Damage builds are so good.

Knootewoot

brandonv516 wrote: »

Consider this:

In no CP you lose about 5k Magicka.
In no CP you lose 0 Spell Damage.

This is why Stamina Weapon Damage builds are so good.

You mean you only lose magicka stuff but no stamina?

Weird man

Beardimus

Knootewoot wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Consider this:

In no CP you lose about 5k Magicka.
In no CP you lose 0 Spell Damage.

This is why Stamina Weapon Damage builds are so good.

You mean you only lose magicka stuff but no stamina?

Weird man

No, you lose all three. 300CP in hits a 20% gain in health, magika, stamina. Leave CP and you drop all three.

brandonv516

Knootewoot wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Consider this:

In no CP you lose about 5k Magicka.
In no CP you lose 0 Spell Damage.

This is why Stamina Weapon Damage builds are so good.

You mean you only lose magicka stuff but no stamina?

Weird man

Applies to Stamina as well with their respective damage stats.

Basically in noCP if you can build for tons of Spell Damage and still sustain you have the potential to greatly outperform a Max Magicka build.

CatchMeTrolling

Depends on the class magblade can generally have a combination of both . While a magplar leans more towards spell damage with 35-37k max but this doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t have 40k max and 3k spell damage on one.

Slack

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

JobooAGS

Slack wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

Annulent and conjured ward scale off of both. Well they scale off of max mag, but they have a maximum strength at 40-50% of your max hp.

Koensol

Slack wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

You still don't know what 'to scale' means do you? I'm almost sure I tried to explain it to you before. Your statement is false, if your health is high enough 60k magicka gives a lot bigger shields than 10k magicka.

ccmedaddy

Slack wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

No they don't.

thankyourat

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

CatchMeTrolling

thankyourat wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

Remember what light attacks scale with , which makes up a large portion of magblade dps rotation.

Torbschka

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

Remember what light attacks scale with , which makes up a large portion of magblade dps rotation.

Furthermore, what healing of mag NB is dmg based anymore? Strife Gerd reflected 24/7 and cloak is HP based, path is crap now.

WrathOfInnos

Light attacks scale just like other skills now. 10.5 Max Magicka is equivalent to 1 Spell Damage. I think the only thing that scales better with Spell Damage now is Sorcerer mines. And I believe Templar’s purifying Light, Sorc pets, and shields all scale solely off of Max Magicka.

Magblade is the class with the best Max Magicka multiplier and the worst spell damage multiplier (tied with DK and Warden). It still depends on build and buffs which is better.

thankyourat

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

Remember what light attacks scale with , which makes up a large portion of magblade dps rotation.

Light attacks scale off both of your damage stats. So to get the most out of your light attacks you need a good combination of spell damage and Max magicka.

JobooAGS

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Light attacks scale just like other skills now. 10.5 Max Magicka is equivalent to 1 Spell Damage. I think the only thing that scales better with Spell Damage now is Sorcerer mines. And I believe Templar’s purifying Light, Sorc pets, and shields all scale solely off of Max Magicka.

Magblade is the class with the best Max Magicka multiplier and the worst spell damage multiplier (tied with DK and Warden). It still depends on build and buffs which is better.

Northern storm and bound aegis both give 8% max mag

WrathOfInnos

JobooAGS wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Light attacks scale just like other skills now. 10.5 Max Magicka is equivalent to 1 Spell Damage. I think the only thing that scales better with Spell Damage now is Sorcerer mines. And I believe Templar’s purifying Light, Sorc pets, and shields all scale solely off of Max Magicka.

Magblade is the class with the best Max Magicka multiplier and the worst spell damage multiplier (tied with DK and Warden). It still depends on build and buffs which is better.

Northern storm and bound aegis both give 8% max mag

Yep that is true. However it is unlikely that a Warden will slot Northern Storm on both bars, or that a sorcerer will double bar Inner Light and Bound Aegis. Nightblades can reliably keep their 8% on both bars, while still slotting Inner Light, and not making large sacrifices like giving up skill slots or useful ultimates.

Malamar1229

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

No they don't.

They scale with magicka but are capped at 50% of your health. Having 100k magicka does *** for shields if you only have 10k health.

ccmedaddy

Malamar1229 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

What is the theory behind having more max magicka for shields now with the murkmire cap?

My magden has 53k magicka and his harness magicka is still nowhere near the 40% cap. I don't think the cap is much of a factor in PvP unless you're a magsorc with 60k magicka or something like that.

40% of what?... Magicka?
It doesn't matter if you have 10k or 60k magicka.
Your shields scale with health

No they don't.

They scale with magicka but are capped at 50% of your health. Having 100k magicka does *** for shields if you only have 10k health.

Literally no one in this thread claimed otherwise and nobody in this game has 100k magicka so what's your point?

Illuvatarr

thankyourat wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

Max magicka is always better than stacking spell damage not because it gives more damage but because you can do more with it. It is as under rated for sustained dps in pvp as the invigorating trait is for sustain.

Jakx

Illuvatarr wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

If you are a MagBlade, you have to stack Max Magicka and whoever tell you something else, is lying to you... I have 51k magicka (PvP build) and my tooltips are high as hell. Have like 45k Magicka in PvE build...

Its going to depend on the Class (because of passives)...

It depends on if you are using a damage shield or not. If you aren't using a damage shield there is no point to stack max magicka even on a magblade because spell damage will give you more damage even after all the max magicka multipliers. If you play a heavy armor or a healing based magblade spell damage will also be more beneficial because it increases your heals. Your tooltips are high because magblades have high tooltip damage abilities. This doesn't mean stacking magic is the only way to get high tooltips or that magicka gives higher tooltip damage.

Max magicka is always better than stacking spell damage not because it gives more damage but because you can do more with it. It is as under rated for sustained dps in pvp as the invigorating trait is for sustain.

11 regen on a gold piece. 77 regen on all 7 gold pieces... yea Im not sure underrated is the term you're looking for.

I think the max magicka vs. spell damage is a closer debate than some think given the opinions I've seen so far and some of the damage calculations you can run on UESP builder. The difference between swapping spell damage mundus vs. max mag mundus is nearly a wash, slight edge to spell damage for overall effectivess.

Arkangeloski

Shields cap at 40 , 50 percent of your health, raise the health cap (get as much health as you need) then just add max mag as needed to cap your shields at a desirable size, when you get to a comfortable spot with your shields then add as much spell damage as possible.

Tri jewelry and armor tri glyphs help a lot.