2018 End Year PVP Review - State of PVP & Balancing

ZarkingFrued

Proc sets are what is wrong with ESO

Kensei_ESO

Listened to the whole video - I love hearing people's perspective on combat balance but there are only a few things there I agree with.

Bleeds not crittable is an interesting suggestion. I agree there should be some trade-off for the advantages of bleeds and how cheap they are to apply. Leave Master's DW alone though.

NO STAMINA CLASS MORPHS. It's already an abomination that magical abilities cost stamina, and stamina morphs take away from magicka options. Stamina "classes" should never have been anything more than class passives, buff skills, and weapon abilities. We do need more weapons added to the game though, absolutely.

I wasn't crazy about the class balance suggestions either, but your statements about how the classes feel overall is on point.

katorga

Solariken wrote: »

NO STAMINA CLASS MORPHS. It's already an abomination that magical abilities cost stamina, and stamina morphs take away from magicka options. Stamina "classes" should never have been anything more than class passives, buff skills, and weapon abilities. We do need more weapons added to the game though, absolutely.

That is a spot on assessment, but it goes back further. At release with soft caps on stats, and ALL class skills costing magicka, the game forced you into a hybrid mode. You invested in every resource because diminishing returns from soft caps forced you to. Magicka classes had stam for defense, and stamina weapon users had magicka for utility.If I recall correctly, even staves scaled off weapon dmg/weapon crit.

Once soft caps were removed and you could stack endless resources and regen, the model started to fall apart. That one change begat the streak nerfs, roll dodge nerfs, endless block nerfs, endless shield nerfs. Proc sets, bleeds, elemental status effects and other sources of passive damage made sense in a softcap game, and became totally OP once caps were removed.

CyrusArya

Skimmed through your commentary on Templars and I have to personally disagree. I don’t think Magplar needs any buffs, it’s in a very balanced state right now. Putting root and snare immunity on purge would definitely overload the skill. Also, in general, I feel Magplar is both stronger and more complete than Stamplar atm. That is the spec that needs a little bit of love. Stamplar has the worst healing of any stam class and has seen a net 38% nerf to heals since homesteads+10% crit healing loss. The class was initially balanced around having access to mending, but lost that without any compensation. It needs to have class passives adjused to be more applicable to the stamina playstyle as right now almost half the passives are irrelevant. But it doesn’t need big buffs as the class is solid, just some minor tuning.

Minno

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skimmed through your commentary on Templars and I have to personally disagree. I don’t think Magplar needs any buffs, it’s in a very balanced state right now. Putting root and snare immunity on purge would definitely overload the skill. Also, in general, I feel Magplar is both stronger and more complete than Stamplar atm. That is the spec that needs a little bit of love. Stamplar has the worst healing of any stam class and has seen a net 38% nerf to heals since homesteads+10% crit healing loss. The class was initially balanced around having access to mending, but lost that without any compensation. It needs to have class passives adjused to be more applicable to the stamina playstyle as right now almost half the passives are irrelevant. But it doesn’t need big buffs as the class is solid, just some minor tuning.

agreed.

Xvorg

crusnik91 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Disagree completely on proc sets. They take skill from the game and proc sets are 1 reason this game cannot be an esport and hence gets no support from dev's regarding performance.

Minno wrote: »

He would be the first class rep that overwhelming enjoys proc sets.

You do know proc sets are widely used in pve and in pvp as well right. There so many interesting proc set which varies from
- Debuffs proc set like alkosh to Wizard's Riposte or something like Infallible Mage/Durok's Bane
- Weapon/spell damage proc sets like veiled heritance, Burning Spellweave, Sacthing Mage etc etc
- Defensive proc sets like bloodspawn, pirate skeleton, Brands of Imperium, Meridia’s Blessed Armor
- Resource proc sets like trappings, Bloodthorn, Desert rose, Engine Guardian, Barkskin, Essence Thief
- Pet summoning proc sets like Maw of infenal, Shadowrend, Morkuldin
- Healing proc sets like Earthgore, Chokethorn, Nightflame, Troll king
- Snare proc sets like winterborn, Spawn of Mephala, tremorscale
- And of course your typical Damaging proc sets Viper, Caluurion, Skoria, sheer venom etc etc

Imagine take all these away from the game. The state of pve and pvp would've been so dull.
And 1 more thing to mention is proc sets aren't all just about damage proc sets that's the biggest misunderstood thing in the video. Besides that, I did mention ZOS should be cautious about creating damaging type of procs sets and always include different conditions + cooldowns to make they aren't overpowered.

I like livewire on a mag toon with a shock staff. Applies concussion and blockade could add extra dmg if you have exploiter unlocked. That's like 18% extra dmg but you must work a lot to make it effective and it is not free dmg (unless you run skoria)

Xvorg

Rispat wrote: »

PS: In overall, ppl in cyrodill now are not rewarded for smart playing, they are rewarded for grouping up and hitting objects.
Bring us more action to cyrodill.

This

Xvorg

katorga wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NO STAMINA CLASS MORPHS. It's already an abomination that magical abilities cost stamina, and stamina morphs take away from magicka options. Stamina "classes" should never have been anything more than class passives, buff skills, and weapon abilities. We do need more weapons added to the game though, absolutely.

That is a spot on assessment, but it goes back further. At release with soft caps on stats, and ALL class skills costing magicka, the game forced you into a hybrid mode. You invested in every resource because diminishing returns from soft caps forced you to. Magicka classes had stam for defense, and stamina weapon users had magicka for utility.If I recall correctly, even staves scaled off weapon dmg/weapon crit.

Once soft caps were removed and you could stack endless resources and regen, the model started to fall apart. That one change begat the streak nerfs, roll dodge nerfs, endless block nerfs, endless shield nerfs. Proc sets, bleeds, elemental status effects and other sources of passive damage made sense in a softcap game, and became totally OP once caps were removed.

Most of us are really fond of that time when you could slot DW main bar and flame staff back bar

crusnik91

Derra wrote: »

crusnik91 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´d love if you gave the keypoints of the video in text form aswell - i think it makes discussion a lot easier in a medium like the forum. Which then gives devs or classreps the chance to pick up on key points.

done!

Armor types are missing

hue hue not anymore!

MalagenR

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skimmed through your commentary on Templars and I have to personally disagree. I don’t think Magplar needs any buffs, it’s in a very balanced state right now. Putting root and snare immunity on purge would definitely overload the skill. Also, in general, I feel Magplar is both stronger and more complete than Stamplar atm. That is the spec that needs a little bit of love. Stamplar has the worst healing of any stam class and has seen a net 38% nerf to heals since homesteads+10% crit healing loss. The class was initially balanced around having access to mending, but lost that without any compensation. It needs to have class passives adjused to be more applicable to the stamina playstyle as right now almost half the passives are irrelevant. But it doesn’t need big buffs as the class is solid, just some minor tuning.

I found the shield nerf to suck but the amount of other changes in Murkmire including new gear sets off set this change. Build diversity is at the highest it's ever been on MagSorc and I also see plenty of DK's, Temps, etc. running strange new builds, NB's too.

Wardens are almost all exclusively running the rooting build, whatever build that is.

I think the PVP is actually fairly balanced. I mean......the fact that some 1v1's are going 15+ minutes in a group PVP game is astounding. It really actually betrays a level of balance that people want and are getting but don't think they are. The only real issue right now is bleeds with WW / Torug, which is really a bug that needs fixing. But other than that, I can't think of any SIGNIFICANTLY GLARING issues.

I think all the crying about permaroot in BG's is because it's an AOE CC that only requires 1 person to be running it and they are quick que'ing and the counter builds to this set up are not common so the teams they end up on have no way of dealing with it.

crusnik91

CyrusArya wrote: »

Stamplar has the worst healing of any stam class and has seen a net 38% nerf to heals since homesteads+10% crit healing loss. The class was initially balanced around having access to mending, but lost that without any compensation.

Templars still have Minor mending and stamplars have access to cleanse to remove all kinds of healing/damage/DoT debuffs. Classes like stam sorc, stam dk have to take it all to the face and outheal them. of course the Minor protection stamplar received from the new patch helps a lot too.
Besides that, Stamplars have really solid offensive passives like Piercing Spear and Burning Light. In addition to Power of the light minor fracture debuff stamplar hits really really hard. So to be fair u can't have everything or else you would be stronger than a stam warden

Minno

crusnik91 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Stamplar has the worst healing of any stam class and has seen a net 38% nerf to heals since homesteads+10% crit healing loss. The class was initially balanced around having access to mending, but lost that without any compensation.

Templars still have Minor mending and stamplars have access to cleanse to remove all kinds of healing/damage/DoT debuffs. Classes like stam sorc, stam dk have to take it all to the face and outheal them. of course the Minor protection stamplar received from the new patch helps a lot too.
Besides that, Stamplars have really solid offensive passives like Piercing Spear and Burning Light. In addition to Power of the light minor fracture debuff stamplar hits really really hard. So to be fair u can't have everything or else you would be stronger than a stam warden

That just means DK and warden self healing will be gettinga Nerf and bleeds to not be touch. Hard package to sell to the community, since a stamDk can heal back to full similar to a magplar but with better damage.

Unless @CyrusArya and i are playing different games.

Kidgangster101

Am I the only one to think they buffed light attacks slightly too much? I see so many death recaps that I see light at acme doing more damage then people's heavy attacks.

I'm not saying it is wrong to have light attacks mean something, but if it completely kills the heavy attack damage wise then what's the point of a heavy attack other then getting resources back?

Not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to see if I'm the only one with this opinion.

MalagenR

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Am I the only one to think they buffed light attacks slightly too much? I see so many death recaps that I see light at acme doing more damage then people's heavy attacks.

I'm not saying it is wrong to have light attacks mean something, but if it completely kills the heavy attack damage wise then what's the point of a heavy attack other then getting resources back?

Not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to see if I'm the only one with this opinion.

I think they did this to increase the pace of PVP, 1v1's between good players can last upwards of 20+ minutes, so by buffing light attack damage and making resource return cost you kill time it looks to speed up the pace of PVP. By costing you time if you're trying to get resources and increasing your kill speed if you're not.

CyrusArya

crusnik91 wrote: »

Templars still have Minor mending and stamplars have access to cleanse to remove all kinds of healing/damage/DoT debuffs. Classes like stam sorc, stam dk have to take it all to the face and outheal them. of course the Minor protection stamplar received from the new patch helps a lot too.
Besides that, Stamplars have really solid offensive passives like Piercing Spear and Burning Light. In addition to Power of the light minor fracture debuff stamplar hits really really hard. So to be fair u can't have everything or else you would be stronger than a stam warden

I was pretty explicit that the class is generally in a good place. Doesn’t mean there isnt room for improvement. Idk why you’re listing off passives and skills as if I can’t also do that for any class. Offensively, Stamplar is in a great spot. Defensively, there could be some polish. A few good passives doesn’t justify, for example, a passive dedicated to resing people quicker. But hey I guess there’s a chance of getting a free soul gem so it balances out right?

I never said Stamplar has no good passives. You’re missing my point, which is that the devs have stated they were ok with Stamplar passives being generally lackluster because it had access to major mending. But that was removed, and we just lost more and more healing over time. So by ZOS’ own logic, if major mending is what justified weaker passives, then the loss of mending should inherently mean that the passives need to be looked at. Very simple rhetoric.

crusnik91

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Am I the only one to think they buffed light attacks slightly too much? I see so many death recaps that I see light at acme doing more damage then people's heavy attacks.

I'm not saying it is wrong to have light attacks mean something, but if it completely kills the heavy attack damage wise then what's the point of a heavy attack other then getting resources back?

Not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to see if I'm the only one with this opinion.

Either ppl are running light attack buffing sets or perhaps u should invest points into the cp tree to reduce damage from light attacks. That's what I would do for sure

Didgerion

Good Video!

Hope to see more videos like this one from different experienced players.

I have few remarks here on the balance too.
Power of Light + Proc Sets is unbalanced. The skill makes proc sets 20% more effective and that's a raw unbalance right there.
Power of Light + already an unbalanced Bleed damage makes thinks even more unbalanced.
I think Power of light needs adjustments. For example Let it copy only direct damage skills and release 30% as additional damage instead of 20%.
Also power of light is too strong in team play - but a lot of other things are too strong in team play ...so maybe it is not a good idea to touch that.

Cloak is too good and it has no good counters. It provides the following:
- The launched attacks go missing
- Total immunity for DOT damage
- The TAB targeting resets
- Gives Major ward and major resolve
- Gives a guaranteed crit on next attack
- Channeled heavy attacks don't restore resources when interrupted by cloak.
- The positioning advantage
- First hit advantage
- Fight reset.

No other skill has so many advantages in a battle field as cloak does - certainly something has to be adjusted here.

Kidgangster101

crusnik91 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Am I the only one to think they buffed light attacks slightly too much? I see so many death recaps that I see light at acme doing more damage then people's heavy attacks.

I'm not saying it is wrong to have light attacks mean something, but if it completely kills the heavy attack damage wise then what's the point of a heavy attack other then getting resources back?

Not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to see if I'm the only one with this opinion.

Either ppl are running light attack buffing sets or perhaps u should invest points into the cp tree to reduce damage from light attacks. That's what I would do for sure

I agree but CP doesn't help in battlegrounds and that is where I am most of my time.

Iskiab

I understand trying to be comprehensive, but don’t touch healthy offering. NBs are good pvp healers almost entirely because of that ability, it’s the rest of the tool kit that’s garbage.

You should limit feedback to things you’ve tried/tested.

crusnik91

Iskiab wrote: »

I understand trying to be comprehensive, but don’t touch healthy offering. NBs are good pvp healers almost entirely because of that ability, it’s the rest of the tool kit that’s garbage.

You should limit feedback to things you’ve tried/tested.

To be fair the reason why I said the skill isnt good is because u are forced to be a healer with resto staff skills to make that skill useful. Mainly due to the fact that NB doesnt have good self heal skills in their own class skill line. another thing is NB doesnt have any source of major or minor mending so being a healer isn't effective compare to templars or warden. Thus I suggest a rework on the skill. Perhaps a low magicka or stamina cost for each morph and it has a lower health reduction tooltip. that could make the skill more attractive for players who doesnt want to play a pure magNB healer.
Just my thoughts in general for that skill. Didnt really express them properly in the video

Vapirko

Always enjoy your pov. Always fairly balanced and unbiased, you should be a class rep. The only part I didn’t agree with was Templar’s, I think both stamina and magicka are in a very good spot right now. But you mentioned those weren’t your strong points. I’ve seen some really good year reviews but also some that are just hammering on the heavy OP bandwagon, same old fury/ravager/7th QQ and it’s really sad to see. I really don’t think sets are currently the problem with PvP, not armor type either (I main a medium stamplar), and I wish people would get off those sets because they are still useful but I really wouldn’t call them OP. I’d say that necropotance is equally useful for magicka. I do get that more people have a hard time defending against the burst that stamina brings in general. And again I think it’s the ball group spin to win, permafrost, ult dump groups that give these sets a bad name. But what people don’t realize is that it’s not gonna matter what sets those groups wear. The gameplay that ZOS creates is almost destroying PvP from the inside out.

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I really agree with you on a lot of points(some little disappointments but overall we seem to be in a similar mindset), but its the devs who should watch this video and take notes, not me.

Personally I think you would make a fine class rep as you play many different things which makes you a lot less biased than some class reps that don't give a damn outside of their few favourite specs.

He would be the first class rep that overwhelming enjoys proc sets.

His builds are a fairly balanced mix and if you listened he said he enjoys proc sets and thinks they’re fine so long as they have active conditions for the proc that are limited.

Iskiab

crusnik91 wrote: »

To be fair the reason why I said the skill isnt good is because u are forced to be a healer with resto staff skills to make that skill useful. Mainly due to the fact that NB doesnt have good self heal skills in their own class skill line. another thing is NB doesnt have any source of major or minor mending so being a healer isn't effective compare to templars or warden. Thus I suggest a rework on the skill.

Agreed that NBs have to use a resto staff, I don’t think NBs are weaker in pvp than templars though. PvE yes, PvP no. It’s just a different style than other classes, I have a Templar and NB healer and prefer healing on my NB. Everyone convinced me templars were better so I tried one out which showed me the strength of the NB.

No major mending, but malevolent offering provides minor. In exchange of not having enough healing abilities or any stuns NBs have minor resolve and major evasion. Healing with health sounds terrible so I didn’t use MO for a while, but the burst healing potential is amazing, better than a Templar, and if a Templar tried they’d run out of magicka.

What works is malevolent offering and the aoe that heals the group (can’t remember the name). What doesn’t work is everything else. Refreshing path is good on paper but the area’s too small for pvp. It needs to be increased to something like the size of Templar’s ritual.

The dot on malevolent was probably designed with the healing from funnel health and refreshing path to counteract it, and in this regard it’s a design failure. However, the issue is funnel health and refreshing path.

katorga

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skimmed through your commentary on Templars and I have to personally disagree. I don’t think Magplar needs any buffs, it’s in a very balanced state right now. Putting root and snare immunity on purge would definitely overload the skill. Also, in general, I feel Magplar is both stronger and more complete than Stamplar atm.

Stamina NB and Warden are the only stamina classes that are complete and well designed. Everything else is just thrill of getting past all of the disadvantages. Warden was designed from the ground up with stamina in mind, and with NB they did a really great job of picking the right skills to offer stam versions of.

NB is the only class you could play stamina with ONLY class skills on your bar. No other class can say that, even Warden.

crusnik91

Iskiab wrote: »

The dot on malevolent was probably designed with the healing from funnel health and refreshing path to counteract it, and in this regard it’s a design failure. However, the issue is funnel health and refreshing path.

Yup that's what I meant.
The good thing about templars BoL is that it can heal yourself or your friendlies that's why imo it is one of the best heals in the game. There is more flexibility to it compare to MO. Surely MO could work for magnb healers but other than that playstyle option I wouldnt see many ppl using it