Is the Hero Engine responsible of the bad performance of ESO?

killmove

Just wandering why performance is so bad.

Happy new year btw

UPrime

Complex combat that requires a lot of resources along with a lot of people in a tight spot. The reason is that the skill mechanics are too complex for that many people. Games that have a lot of people have much simpler skills. I don't mean the effects. But what the skill does on the server.

Bhaal5

Other games have something similar and have zero issues.... Bad coding equals bad performance

killmove

because i found this video on youtube speaking about SWTOR (i don't know or play this game).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO-8ugqw_Kg&t=1191s

it seems the game has similar issue with performance as ESO

zyk

According to ZOS, ESO does not use HeroEngine:

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi, folks. When we began development for ESO, we licensed the HeroEngine so that we could hit the ground running. We used it as a tool for things like area prototypes and design concepts so that we could begin honing the art style. HeroEngine was our whiteboard: a great tool to put our ideas in the game and seeing them while the production engine was in development.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/895414/#Comment_895414

Tandor

I think the causes are split between some server/coding issues, some networking/ISP issues, and some client-side issues. There are certainly some client-side things that can be done to improve things, like disabling certain addons when in Cyrodiil (or not using addons at all of course), sticking with tried and tested drivers that work, not using any form of wireless connection whether for modem/router, mouse or keyboard, and keeping a clean system with no-one else sharing the internet signal. Loading times can be reduced by limiting the number of quests you're holding. Much also depends on which part of the world you're playing from, and which ISP you're connecting through.

So if you're suffering lag while playing on a notebook with 43 addons installed on wireless equipment in Australasia while your folks are streaming a movie in the next room and your kid brother is in his room downloading p0rn then it's a bit unfair to blame ZOS for their crap servers ! That said, I don't doubt that they are working constantly on further optimisation but that sort of thing tends to be a long-term exercise with the need to ensure that small incremental changes are made and fully tested so that improving one thing doesn't break something else. Always frequent your ISP's technical forum so you can see if other people are having similar issues and whether there are any changes that the ISP can make that will improve the connection. ZOS do need to fix some things at their end, but there are all manner of workarounds that players can implement that just may improve things in the meantime.

Morgul667

Tandor wrote: »

I think the causes are split between some server/coding issues, some networking/ISP issues, and some client-side issues. There are certainly some client-side things that can be done to improve things, like disabling certain addons when in Cyrodiil (or not using addons at all of course), sticking with tried and tested drivers that work, not using any form of wireless connection whether for modem/router, mouse or keyboard, and keeping a clean system with no-one else sharing the internet signal. Much also depends on which part of the world you're playing from.

So if you're suffering lag while playing on a notebook with 43 addons installed on wireless equipment in Australasia while your folks are streaming a movie in the next room and your kid brother is in his room downloading p0rn then it's a bit unfair to blame ZOS for their crap servers ! That said, I don't doubt that they are working constantly on further optimisation but that sort of thing tends to be a long-term exercise with the need to ensure that small incremental changes are made and fully tested so that improving one thing doesn't break something else. Always frequent your ISP's technical forum so you can see if other people are having similar issues and whether there are any changes that the ISP can make that will improve the connection. ZOS do need to fix some things at their end, but there are all manner of workarounds that players can implement that just may improve things in the meantime.

Except other game work well... but sure let’s avoid the elephant inthe room and blame users. Much easier but much less efficient at problem solving

I think we all tried the game with zero addon low resolution with nobody using the connexion, yet performance is an alltime low compared to other games

zaria

Tandor wrote: »

I think the causes are split between some server/coding issues, some networking/ISP issues, and some client-side issues. There are certainly some client-side things that can be done to improve things, like disabling certain addons when in Cyrodiil (or not using addons at all of course), sticking with tried and tested drivers that work, not using any form of wireless connection whether for modem/router, mouse or keyboard, and keeping a clean system with no-one else sharing the internet signal. Much also depends on which part of the world you're playing from.

So if you're suffering lag while playing on a notebook with 43 addons installed on wireless equipment in Australasia while your folks are streaming a movie in the next room and your kid brother is in his room downloading p0rn then it's a bit unfair to blame ZOS for their crap servers ! That said, I don't doubt that they are working constantly on further optimisation but that sort of thing tends to be a long-term exercise with the need to ensure that small incremental changes are made and fully tested so that improving one thing doesn't break something else. Always frequent your ISP's technical forum so you can see if other people are having similar issues and whether there are any changes that the ISP can make that will improve the connection. ZOS do need to fix some things at their end, but there are all manner of workarounds that players can implement that just may improve things in the meantime.

This, you have client lag, here graphic and cpu. You have network delays and you have server issues.
It all adds up, note that at launch the game ran better however this was because far more code was run on the client like its
done in games like pugb. Downside with this is that its easy to cheat and that happened.

So they moved most of the calculations to servers, this increase server load and network lag a lot. In my view an more perfect solution would be to run it on client but do checks on server, if client and server data was too different force calculations onto server. You could still get cheaters but you do anyway and it would be hard.

And ESO don't use the hero engine it was used very early in development for testing out concepts while working on their own engine.

ESO is very vulnerable to this as combat is pretty fast parsed, its also has lots more calculations than you average shooter because all the effects. You and everything else stand in 20+ various AoE both damage, heals and buffs and moving 30 cm change the effects.

victory.immortalb16_ESO

Same problems in other MMo's - too many effects and too many sparkles as well as too many conditions, boons, etc and when there a lot of people all fighting in one area skills stop functioning or take 5 seconds to cast.

It's not a problem limited to ESO.

MLGProPlayer

zyk wrote: »

According to ZOS, ESO does not use HeroEngine:

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi, folks. When we began development for ESO, we licensed the HeroEngine so that we could hit the ground running. We used it as a tool for things like area prototypes and design concepts so that we could begin honing the art style. HeroEngine was our whiteboard: a great tool to put our ideas in the game and seeing them while the production engine was in development.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/895414/#Comment_895414

A Hero Engine dev recently confirmed rhat this isn't true and that ESO does indeed use the Hero Engine.

Sylosi

victory.immortalb16_ESO wrote: »

Same problems in other MMo's - too many effects and too many sparkles as well as too many conditions, boons, etc and when there a lot of people all fighting in one area skills stop functioning or take 5 seconds to cast.

It's not a problem limited to ESO.

Nah, take GW2 for example and look at their version of Cyrodil (world vs world) to compare the problems at their worst. Early on in GW2 they had big performance issues, like culling problems where zergs would be rendered late so they basically came out of nowhere at times and only appeared when they were right on top of you, but unlike this game that got fixed.

Same thing with skill lag in huge fights, it actually got better in GW2 over time, is it completely gone, no, but most of the time I can engage in an 70 vs 70 blob fight in that game with no lag issues, where as Cyrodil is a shitshow with far less numbers. You also have to remember in GW2 that you have 50 man squads and more commonly use TS / Discord for public raids, so they play far more like a guild group, much tighter, much more in sync than your pug LFG group does in Cyrodil. So they put more strain on the servers with skills being all hit more tightly together like a guild in Cyrodil does, yet we are talking a 70 man blob. And that game handles it way better than this joke.

ESO on the other hand has gone backwards, performance was way better earlier in the game, until they changed the netcode and whatever else with the patch for dealing with bots and performance went through the floor overnight and has never recovered.

SgtSilock

I don' think performance is bad, I think it's bad on consoles however but that's because of consoles.

zyk

Well, for the record, Matt Firor has also stated ESO uses a ZOS engine:

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

I seem to recall someone at ZOS explaining they were required to use the HeroEngine logo on their splash screen because they are contractually obligated to.

If ZOS wanted to hide the fact they use HeroEngine and if using the HeroEngine logo on the splash screen is optional (according to the HeroEngine rep), then why would ZOS have included it?

Benemime

zyk wrote: »

Well, for the record, Matt Firor has also stated ESO uses a ZOS engine:

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

I seem to recall someone at ZOS explaining they were required to use the HeroEngine logo on their splash screen because they are contractually obligated to.

If ZOS wanted to hide the fact they use HeroEngine and if using the HeroEngine logo on the splash screen is optional (according to the HeroEngine rep), then why would ZOS have included it?

get yours facts straight, because they straight up lied about that.

This is the real T:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

According to ZOS, ESO does not use HeroEngine:

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi, folks. When we began development for ESO, we licensed the HeroEngine so that we could hit the ground running. We used it as a tool for things like area prototypes and design concepts so that we could begin honing the art style. HeroEngine was our whiteboard: a great tool to put our ideas in the game and seeing them while the production engine was in development.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/895414/#Comment_895414

A Hero Engine dev recently confirmed rhat this isn't true and that ESO does indeed use the Hero Engine.

^ this is recent

JasonSilverSpring

Benemime wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Well, for the record, Matt Firor has also stated ESO uses a ZOS engine:

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

I seem to recall someone at ZOS explaining they were required to use the HeroEngine logo on their splash screen because they are contractually obligated to.

If ZOS wanted to hide the fact they use HeroEngine and if using the HeroEngine logo on the splash screen is optional (according to the HeroEngine rep), then why would ZOS have included it?

get yours facts straight, because they straight up lied about that.

This is the real T:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

According to ZOS, ESO does not use HeroEngine:

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi, folks. When we began development for ESO, we licensed the HeroEngine so that we could hit the ground running. We used it as a tool for things like area prototypes and design concepts so that we could begin honing the art style. HeroEngine was our whiteboard: a great tool to put our ideas in the game and seeing them while the production engine was in development.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/895414/#Comment_895414

A Hero Engine dev recently confirmed rhat this isn't true and that ESO does indeed use the Hero Engine.

^ this is recent

So, if we have contradictory statements then the newest is automatically true?

The ZOS statements come from higher level people. Why would ZOS lie about this?

killmove

it seems that this steam tread is true i just found this on Hero Engine website

http://www.heroengine.com/he-games

that means that ESO uses it, also there is the Hero Engine logo in the start video

So from what i understand ZOS lied on purpose so they can sell the game because if players come to know that the Hero Engine is being used this may cause the game not being sold as expected ?

zyk

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

So, if we have contradictory statements then the newest is automatically true?

The ZOS statements come from higher level people. Why would ZOS lie about this?

Also consider ZOS licensed HeroEngine in or before 2007 while Sarah Grant (ms.Sarrene) joined Idea Fabrik (the company that bought HeroEngine in 2010) in 2015, so it's possible she was not aware of the details of that particular deal.

In any case, we shouldn't presume Matt is lying as he was extremely clear about this in interviews.

Sylosi wrote: »

ESO on the other hand has gone backwards, performance was way better earlier in the game, until they changed the netcode and whatever else with the patch for dealing with bots and performance went through the floor overnight and has never recovered.

It should be noted this is not fact, but a theory that some players believe. ZOS has denied it.

And I mean, come on, the game obviously has no 'anti-bot' code as demonstrated by years of "why isn't zos doing anything about bots??" posts.

JasonSilverSpring

killmove wrote: »

it seems that this steam tread is true i just found this on Hero Engine website

http://www.heroengine.com/he-games

that means that ESO uses it, also there is the Hero Engine logo in the start video

So from what i understand ZOS lied on purpose so they can sell the game because if players come to know that the Hero Engine is being used this may cause the game not being sold as expected ?

They used Hero for prototyping. They probably have to include it for that reason.

Note that the page states games created with their engine. ZOS did use them early on to help create the game. Nothing on that page states they use Hero today.

EDIT: Updated to clean up accidental double quote.

zyk

double post, please delete

jcm2606

Regarding whether ESO uses the Hero Engine, this is also partially an argument of semantics. If we assume that Zenimax started out using Hero Engine, then started heavily modifying it to better suit the game's needs, could the result be considered Hero Engine?

I say this because this is likely what happened. Zenimax used Hero Engine as an early prototyping tool, then slowly started chipping away at it, replacing existing code and systems with their own, until the engine became an amalgam of Hero and in-house.

Considering this is the first MMO under ZOS' belt, I sincerely doubt they dropped Hero Engine entirely and made a completely custom engine. MMO's are very massive and very complex projects, with lots of moving parts to screw up, so if a first-time MMO developer wrote their own engine in-house without outside help (nobody in the Zenimax Media chain has MMO experience outside of ZOS), it'd be a miracle to even have running, let alone survive for many years without a complete meltdown (ESO has had many bumps along the way, but it hasn't taken a complete nosedive in server stability, yet).

Danikat

I'm currently listening to someone claim that even though 4 out of 5 devices in the house are able to connect to and using the wifi the problem MUST be with the phone line because her tablet has never had a problem before. Apparently it connected right out the box without anything needing to be set up and has always worked perfectly for the last 10 days so it's impossible for it to have a problem now.

I hear similar complaints from people at work. They CAN'T have put their password in incorrectly. Their 15 year old computer always runs all software perfectly. Their daughter teaches "computers" at school and she couldn't explain it over the phone so the only possible explanation is that "the system" is down and needs to be rebooted. (Or "pro-optimised" according to one guy.)

As a result even when I know for a fact the software in question has some problems (like one of the websites at work) I still want to look for things on the users end to fix too. Especially if I'm the user - if there's anything I can do to improve it I want to try if. Better a slight improvement than waiting for someone else to fix a problem they may not even be able to detect.

Tandor

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

it seems that this steam tread is true i just found this on Hero Engine website

http://www.heroengine.com/he-games

that means that ESO uses it, also there is the Hero Engine logo in the start video

So from what i understand ZOS lied on purpose so they can sell the game because if players come to know that the Hero Engine is being used this may cause the game not being sold as expected ?

They used Hero for prototyping. They probably have to include it for that reason.

Note that the page states games created with their engine. ZOS did use them early on to help create the game. Nothing on that page states they use Hero today.

Just to confuse matters further, the launch date given for ESO on the Hero website relates to the console launch, not the earlier PC launch. Maybe ZOS developed their own engine for the PC having used the Hero Engine for prototyping only, but then relied more substantially on the Hero Engine for the console versison?

Zer0oo

If I remember it correctly they said they use a highly customized heroes engine, which they call their own engine. Not sure where I got this maybe ESO live or somewhere else.

Problems are not perse with the Engine but with bad code optimization and the use of "old" technology. This game was developt for a single core. ...

RinaldoGandolphi

I think a more accurate term is “uses part of the hero engine”

ESO is running on a heavily modified version of hero. It’s pretty clear ZOS made some pretty big changes to the core hero engine itself. So they are not technically lying when they say they don’t use the hero engine.

They heavily modified the hero engine to make eso. It’s pretty clear the game uses some of the hero code

Alcast

ESO uses a heavily modified version of the Hero Engine. Sure it is modified but the core issues are still present and is one of the main reasons this game has so many performance issues.

Unsure how much time ZOS invests into fixing issues or trying to improve things. If its heavily modified I guess they can call it their own now but then I do not understand why they would be happy with the current performance of their own engine.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

killmove wrote: »

Just wandering why performance is so bad.

Happy new year btw

Happy New Year.
I will go technical from personal experience, and not going to blame engines etc like everyone else.

The game requires a pretty hefty CPU. Over the last 5 years (since Jan 2014 beta), only my current 8600K @ 5Ghz can hold the game. Graphics isn't that heavy but at maxed out settings it needs 6GB VRAM at least.

Also there is some issue with the engine and it requires, at least on my AMD Vega 64, to create a custom game profile and set the P7 state as the minimum speed. Otherwise the game is barely clocking the card at 1/3 of it's proper performance. (500Mhz core and around 500mhz the VRAM). Fixing that alone, it quadrupled the FPS.

Yet still, there places like dungeons where I hit the cap 144fps, and places like Vulkhel Guard that doesn't go over 70fps.
That on maxed out everything including particles, with overwrite on AA, and AF processing also.

Regardless if the game is based on Hero, or a heavily modified Hero or a "ZoS engine", is still very heavy bound on 1 thread to do most of the work, and lets not forget the engine is designed 10 years ago, where the dominating CPUs were dual cores. True we saw a lot of improvements with Summerset, especially now that is trying to use more than 2 cores and in my case all 6. But still, it needs very high clock speeds to push the game.

I urge everyone who complains about performance above, to use either the AMD overlay or the MSI Afterburner (if having Nvidia card) and check their GPU clock speeds.
If they are bellow than what is "normal" for their graphic cards, should start making custom graphic profiles. (by normal i do not mean 100mhz-200 due to heat etc but 40-50% less).

Thats an issue not only with this game, but many old MMOs today like SWG or DAOC, or even non MMOs using old engines like EU4, HOI4, CK2.
And it only takes 2 minutes to fix this.

Assuming someone doesn't try to play the game on a 2.5Ghz dual core notebook with Intel IGP.

zaria

Alcast wrote: »

ESO uses a heavily modified version of the Hero Engine. Sure it is modified but the core issues are still present and is one of the main reasons this game has so many performance issues.

Unsure how much time ZOS invests into fixing issues or trying to improve things. If its heavily modified I guess they can call it their own now but then I do not understand why they would be happy with the current performance of their own engine.

It might use an heavy modified version, that is hard to prove without looking into the libraries and how the game executes.

However an huge part of performance problems is that so much calculations run on the server, you could have much larger fights in cyrodil on launch.
However insane amount of cheating and boting had them move most to servers overloading them.

Alcast

zaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ESO uses a heavily modified version of the Hero Engine. Sure it is modified but the core issues are still present and is one of the main reasons this game has so many performance issues.

Unsure how much time ZOS invests into fixing issues or trying to improve things. If its heavily modified I guess they can call it their own now but then I do not understand why they would be happy with the current performance of their own engine.

It might use an heavy modified version, that is hard to prove without looking into the libraries and how the game executes.

However an huge part of performance problems is that so much calculations run on the server, you could have much larger fights in cyrodil on launch.
However insane amount of cheating and boting had them move most to servers overloading them.

Yes true, for me the game engine and network server/client side all go one in one. I am no dev and have no coding experience so maybe that might usually be seen as two things and not one.

Gythral

Hero Engine - probably not
Lack of hamsters - definitely

Galarthor

I don't get why ZOS is not addressing the elephant in the room: AoEs are the biggest lag drivers (at least in PvP). You can have large fights with well over 50 people and (almost) no lag when those 50 people are primarily using single target effects. But as soon as you get those AoE spamming groups the lag goes through the roof.

The easiest fix would be to get rid or drastically reduce the amount of AoE being used. And the best part is, it's very easy and cheap to implement such measures.

Yes I know, the zerglings here don't like this and will dispute the fact that they are the main drivers of lag in pvp. But everyone outside these zergs can clearly see it. Ofc zerglings can't b/c they only know the perspective from inside the zerg, where you don't see combat without zergs (and thus less lag) and you don't feel the lag as badly, b/c they are only spamming a few abilities that are not really target at anybody. As a result they don't see the direct outcomes of their actions (e.g. drop of HP bar by the exact amount of damage dealt by yourself in a timely manner) but only the outcomes of the combined actions of the group (e.g. the guys we just ran through died).

But unfortunately, ZOS hires zerglings as advisors in a similar fashion as governments hired bankers to solve the financial crises the created ... and ofc that resulted in a bail out for the banks. We can see a similar thing happening in ESO. Instead of being nerf, zergs are getting buffed with each update. Next up: crack dealers presiding over trails against drug dealers.

RexyCat

UPrime wrote: »

Complex combat that requires a lot of resources along with a lot of people in a tight spot. The reason is that the skill mechanics are too complex for that many people. Games that have a lot of people have much simpler skills. I don't mean the effects. But what the skill does on the server.

Morgul667 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I think the causes are split between some server/coding issues, some networking/ISP issues, and some client-side issues. There are certainly some client-side things that can be done to improve things, like disabling certain addons when in Cyrodiil (or not using addons at all of course), sticking with tried and tested drivers that work, not using any form of wireless connection whether for modem/router, mouse or keyboard, and keeping a clean system with no-one else sharing the internet signal. Much also depends on which part of the world you're playing from.

So if you're suffering lag while playing on a notebook with 43 addons installed on wireless equipment in Australasia while your folks are streaming a movie in the next room and your kid brother is in his room downloading p0rn then it's a bit unfair to blame ZOS for their crap servers ! That said, I don't doubt that they are working constantly on further optimisation but that sort of thing tends to be a long-term exercise with the need to ensure that small incremental changes are made and fully tested so that improving one thing doesn't break something else. Always frequent your ISP's technical forum so you can see if other people are having similar issues and whether there are any changes that the ISP can make that will improve the connection. ZOS do need to fix some things at their end, but there are all manner of workarounds that players can implement that just may improve things in the meantime.

Except other game work well... but sure let’s avoid the elephant inthe room and blame users. Much easier but much less efficient at problem solving

I think we all tried the game with zero addon low resolution with nobody using the connexion, yet performance is an alltime low compared to other games

This is a response to Tandors suggestion


Lower resolution move very often most work from GPU to CPU in games, so that is a very bad "solution" in today's world where GPU haver become much more powerful then CPU. This was a solution when GPU often didn't have that much power as CPU (single core or dual core at that time; only one thread for each core etc). In MMOs there a lot of calculation to be made even when those aren't displayed, so that would just not solve that problem.

I have also disabled most add ons and still not see any difference from loading time and other problems. This game have a lot of bugs that also adds its own layer of possible stuttering, disappearing ground (mesh/textures or what it is called) and skills that isn't working as intended when you use light staves (gets locked into heavy attack) or quickslot pots that wont activate during a fight (makes sound, but does nothing).

As for the argument that Wireless local network to router is bad for playing MMO that is a misconception as to treat all router like the have the same hardware.

A router that connect to local network (wired or wireless between router and device/computer/phone) to internet have a processing unit the same way as all computers which handle routing (=the range of IP adresses you see in a local network can be up to 255 different one in one layer; your ISP give you only one IP adresse at a time [through DHCP] (there are static which some ISP provide for those who need it, but in general an IP is dynamic which means it will change if you disconnect for some time and reconnect). Then we have the difference in quality for antenna and radio transmitters and receivers, but that doesn't mean that wireless connection locally is bad for playing games like ESO. With router following standard for 802.11 AC or better, there shouldn't be much to talk about and when ping dip down to 300 ms it is in most cases on server side that something is happening.

As an example my ping are often very much 70-130 ms range, so that is no difference from being connected fully wired (as it is still routers CPU that need to handle communication between local and public (=internet) network.

As for keyboards, mouse etc being wireless this is totally another matter then talking about router communication. Wireless devices use their own hardware to communicate like bluetooth. Very seldom they connect through the same wifi (router) as everything else in house.