Why is PvP Dominated by a Tank Meta?

Elong

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

I agree with some points, and disagree with many others.

One thing in particular that I noticed you didn't touch on (nor does most of the community) is the severe disparity in heavy stamina versus heavy magicka. It is so much easier to build a viable damage setup in heavy armor as a stamina spec than a magicka spec.

There are very few reasons to run heavy armor in magicka unless you're trying to build as a pure tank (such as healer spec, bshield templar, etc.). On the other hand, you can run 1 of a long list of heavy stamina sets and have insane weapon damage.

Not sure why this isn't noted more in these type of discussions.

wtb magicka 7th or fury >:D

On a real note, 100% this isn't touched on often, and really needs to be.

Because it’s not as great as you think it is. That’s why it’s not talked about much. Heavy armor is not what most people make it out to be. Not anymore. I much prefer playing in medium these days with the exception of Stamina DK which I believe synergizes very well with heavy. But most people just talk out of their ass when it comes to heavy armor. They get beat by someone they can’t kill and assume their opponent wore heavy or that it was the reason they couldn’t do enough damage. For all it’s mentioning Fury doesn’t stack that well. You need to take crit damage and most people have a very low crit chance. It’s hard to take enough damage fast enough in this day and age of eso to get fury up high enough to even surpass humdinger rage. 7th is a bit better, but you can easily argue that spell strategist is better than both. So stop complaining.

It's hard to tell if heavy is good or not when you play in the middle of 40 people am I right Vapriko?

Waffennacht

1vX has become increasingly impossible to do with a pure damage build. Mobility Nerfs also encourage tanky builds as you're forced to take damage while repositioning

To face multiple opponents and have the maximum chance at survival, you build tanky

Agreed with above poster that said Nerfs have encouraged players finding survivability via armor over abilities.

DisgracefulMind

bmesi wrote: »

@DisgracefulMind ur strong

ty ily

bmesi

YA YW

technohic

I keep going back and forth. The raw mitigation and damage of heavy is nice but reduced ability cost, increased mobility, damage, and recovery is nice in medium. Just cannot eat the damage in the open like you can with heavy, but if your crit resist is high enough, thats really what counts with bleeds out there. They could use reducing the cost of shuffle a little more yet.

Also; as to the point of why it doesnt work as well with magicka; I think a lot of that goes with how light gives some penetration. Sure; the raw damage is not as high for heavy mag armor; but the passives are nice. Just another reason I like higher crit resist better than more armor. You cant penetrate crit resist and crits are where the bigger bursts come from.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

I would add one thing though, "heavy" does not necessarily mean tank. Those heavy beserkers sets like Fury and 7th Legion are legit damage setups and combine some of the resilience of heavy with potentially a lot of damage, especially when using bleeds, which do not care what armor you (or your opponent) is using.

Personally i think this is somewhat putting the cart before the horse.
The problem regarding stam builds is for a large part in my opinion that: truth, seventh, ravager, fury, veiled are hands down the best flat dmg sets you can and all of those are heavy.

Contrary to that medium has a lot of proccsets which are mostly niche or subpar (considering that weapondmg = healing = defense for stamina).

I kinda like the brawler builds myself - but overall i think they promote the wrong gameplay approach. Why did zos put all of the best stamina dmg sets in the defensive armor class and on top make them so good that they outweight the hypothetical loss of offense for not chosing medium?

I´m also 99% sure if magica had anything coming close to these sets available for heavyarmor we´d see a lot less light armor wearers aswell.
Can you imagine magica fury on a templar or DK?

Vapirko

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

I agree with some points, and disagree with many others.

One thing in particular that I noticed you didn't touch on (nor does most of the community) is the severe disparity in heavy stamina versus heavy magicka. It is so much easier to build a viable damage setup in heavy armor as a stamina spec than a magicka spec.

There are very few reasons to run heavy armor in magicka unless you're trying to build as a pure tank (such as healer spec, bshield templar, etc.). On the other hand, you can run 1 of a long list of heavy stamina sets and have insane weapon damage.

Not sure why this isn't noted more in these type of discussions.

wtb magicka 7th or fury >:D

On a real note, 100% this isn't touched on often, and really needs to be.

Because it’s not as great as you think it is. That’s why it’s not talked about much. Heavy armor is not what most people make it out to be. Not anymore. I much prefer playing in medium these days with the exception of Stamina DK which I believe synergizes very well with heavy. But most people just talk out of their ass when it comes to heavy armor. They get beat by someone they can’t kill and assume their opponent wore heavy or that it was the reason they couldn’t do enough damage. For all it’s mentioning Fury doesn’t stack that well. You need to take crit damage and most people have a very low crit chance. It’s hard to take enough damage fast enough in this day and age of eso to get fury up high enough to even surpass humdinger rage. 7th is a bit better, but you can easily argue that spell strategist is better than both. So stop complaining.

Mmm I think you should really not assume why someone has an opinion or not.

I wasn't really complaining, but I do think the fact that there are much stronger sets available to stamina builds through heavy armor than there are magicka options shows. You mention spell strat, but it's a light set, that's not what I was even responding about.

I'd also say you're not fighting the right amount of people to really get the full effect of fury. Both 7th and Fury are suuuuper strong. :-D

Spell strat is a light but unless you’ve never touched this game before you should know you can wear it on jewelry/weapon etc. Not sure why I have to spell this out for you. So it doesn’t really matter that it’s light and that the stamina sets are heavy. I assume you have played? But you should also know that right now if you’re fighting enough people to get fury pumping then you’re fighting potato’s as it’s currently very difficult to take on even a couple of decent/good players for any period of time. Against potato’s almost any decent combo do sets is strong. My point being that while 7th is pretty great, Fury isn’t great unless maybe you’re backed up by a healer, but since spell strat can be worn with heavy if you so choose, stamina doesn’t have any inherent advantage with those two sets. Spell strat is stronger than 7th and over fury it gives you the full proc on a target of your choice when you choose and you don’t have to take any damage.

technohic

I ran 7th last night. The proc is so unreliable. I mean ravager has better reliability on my stamplar since I can go aggressive any time to get the proc when I need it rather than random procs when taking damage but often not when taking burst due to lag making it take 2 seconds to break free.

At any rate; I think that's the heart of it all. Trying to roll or sprint then use an ability making use of medium. Just gets to be frustrating. Even on my stamblade as a non-ganker, but using cloak to suppress DOTs and allow some vigor ticks and getting a delay. Going for the extra damage even is likely to not pay as lag can cause you to miss your burst window. And shadow image, even if it wasn't broken; casting it and it never shows or trying to cast again because it didn't only to suddenly teleport to tg ed one that decided to show up 2 seconds late.

I mean you might as well turtle up and just spin2win for just the off chance you hit someone

thankyourat

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

I agree with some points, and disagree with many others.

One thing in particular that I noticed you didn't touch on (nor does most of the community) is the severe disparity in heavy stamina versus heavy magicka. It is so much easier to build a viable damage setup in heavy armor as a stamina spec than a magicka spec.

There are very few reasons to run heavy armor in magicka unless you're trying to build as a pure tank (such as healer spec, bshield templar, etc.). On the other hand, you can run 1 of a long list of heavy stamina sets and have insane weapon damage.

Not sure why this isn't noted more in these type of discussions.

wtb magicka 7th or fury >:D

On a real note, 100% this isn't touched on often, and really needs to be.

Because it’s not as great as you think it is. That’s why it’s not talked about much. Heavy armor is not what most people make it out to be. Not anymore. I much prefer playing in medium these days with the exception of Stamina DK which I believe synergizes very well with heavy. But most people just talk out of their ass when it comes to heavy armor. They get beat by someone they can’t kill and assume their opponent wore heavy or that it was the reason they couldn’t do enough damage. For all it’s mentioning Fury doesn’t stack that well. You need to take crit damage and most people have a very low crit chance. It’s hard to take enough damage fast enough in this day and age of eso to get fury up high enough to even surpass humdinger rage. 7th is a bit better, but you can easily argue that spell strategist is better than both. So stop complaining.

Mmm I think you should really not assume why someone has an opinion or not.

I wasn't really complaining, but I do think the fact that there are much stronger sets available to stamina builds through heavy armor than there are magicka options shows. You mention spell strat, but it's a light set, that's not what I was even responding about.

I'd also say you're not fighting the right amount of people to really get the full effect of fury. Both 7th and Fury are suuuuper strong. :-D

Spell strat is a light but unless you’ve never touched this game before you should know you can wear it on jewelry/weapon etc. Not sure why I have to spell this out for you. So it doesn’t really matter that it’s light and that the stamina sets are heavy. I assume you have played? But you should also know that right now if you’re fighting enough people to get fury pumping then you’re fighting potato’s as it’s currently very difficult to take on even a couple of decent/good players for any period of time. Against potato’s almost any decent combo do sets is strong. My point being that while 7th is pretty great, Fury isn’t great unless maybe you’re backed up by a healer, but since spell strat can be worn with heavy if you so choose, stamina doesn’t have any inherent advantage with those two sets. Spell strat is stronger than 7th and over fury it gives you the full proc on a target of your choice when you choose and you don’t have to take any damage.

Fury and seventh are both better than spell strategist because they increase your heals and spell strategist doesn't meaning fury and seventh are both more versatile. Also fury and seventh can be combined. There isn't a heavy armor Magicka damage set that you can combine with spell strategist. Your best bet is a heavy armor crafted set like julianos or shackle breaker both of which are no where near close to seventh or fury

thankyourat

The reason I think there is a tank meta is because heavy armor is just better for PvP. In both light and medium double damage sets aren't really viable outside of duels. So while light and medium both have more damage than heavy armor once you start adding survivability to your build heavy armor will start to out damage light and medium because you don't have to build survivability to your build. So heavy allows you to have damage and survivability while light and medium you have to build for one or the other. A heavy armor build that uses two damage sets will have more damage and survivability than a light/medium build with one defensive set and one damage set.

I think the main problem is with CP, build combinations and external damage sources it too easy to build a heavy armor build that can easily burst a light/medium armor build while a light/medium armor build can only burst a heavy armor build if they are using double damage sets which isn't viable for open world PvP.

DisgracefulMind

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

I agree with some points, and disagree with many others.

One thing in particular that I noticed you didn't touch on (nor does most of the community) is the severe disparity in heavy stamina versus heavy magicka. It is so much easier to build a viable damage setup in heavy armor as a stamina spec than a magicka spec.

There are very few reasons to run heavy armor in magicka unless you're trying to build as a pure tank (such as healer spec, bshield templar, etc.). On the other hand, you can run 1 of a long list of heavy stamina sets and have insane weapon damage.

Not sure why this isn't noted more in these type of discussions.

wtb magicka 7th or fury >:D

On a real note, 100% this isn't touched on often, and really needs to be.

Because it’s not as great as you think it is. That’s why it’s not talked about much. Heavy armor is not what most people make it out to be. Not anymore. I much prefer playing in medium these days with the exception of Stamina DK which I believe synergizes very well with heavy. But most people just talk out of their ass when it comes to heavy armor. They get beat by someone they can’t kill and assume their opponent wore heavy or that it was the reason they couldn’t do enough damage. For all it’s mentioning Fury doesn’t stack that well. You need to take crit damage and most people have a very low crit chance. It’s hard to take enough damage fast enough in this day and age of eso to get fury up high enough to even surpass humdinger rage. 7th is a bit better, but you can easily argue that spell strategist is better than both. So stop complaining.

Mmm I think you should really not assume why someone has an opinion or not.

I wasn't really complaining, but I do think the fact that there are much stronger sets available to stamina builds through heavy armor than there are magicka options shows. You mention spell strat, but it's a light set, that's not what I was even responding about.

I'd also say you're not fighting the right amount of people to really get the full effect of fury. Both 7th and Fury are suuuuper strong. :-D

Spell strat is a light but unless you’ve never touched this game before you should know you can wear it on jewelry/weapon etc. Not sure why I have to spell this out for you. So it doesn’t really matter that it’s light and that the stamina sets are heavy. I assume you have played? But you should also know that right now if you’re fighting enough people to get fury pumping then you’re fighting potato’s as it’s currently very difficult to take on even a couple of decent/good players for any period of time. Against potato’s almost any decent combo do sets is strong. My point being that while 7th is pretty great, Fury isn’t great unless maybe you’re backed up by a healer, but since spell strat can be worn with heavy if you so choose, stamina doesn’t have any inherent advantage with those two sets. Spell strat is stronger than 7th and over fury it gives you the full proc on a target of your choice when you choose and you don’t have to take any damage.

I could have a conversation with you, but you're one of those people that assumes they need to talk down to every individual they come across it would seem (I shouldn't assume, but I can't think of any other reason why you would carry on such a nasty tone for no reason).

The original point you went on about isn't correct, and if you're needing to have a healer with you to gain the advantages of Fury, I really don't know what to tell you.

Spell strat is great in 1v1, some open world builds, and such, but it doesn't impact your healing at all, even if it's a good damage boost on your target. That being said, again the point being that it's a light armor set, and the comment you were responding to was one that was targeted at the fact that there are no comparable heavy armor magicka sets to the heavy armor stamina ones.

I hope you have a fantastic day and really take a step back and learn how to talk to other people! :-D

Ruckly

There are also a hand-full of heavy armor magicka sets that don't have a stamina comparison. A stamina soulshine would be nasty in the hands of snipe spammers. A stamina rattlecage (Dreugh King Slayer is comparable but not as good) would make life easy for stamina nightblades. Juggernaut probably works better for casters.

If there were magicka versions of some of these sets that require taking hits to proc I don't think it would work to well because most magicka builds are ranged except magicka DK whereas most stamina builds are melee except bow users. If sorc could use magicka fury and pop the S&B ult then fire off a battery in the last 2 seconds of the ult that would be pretty strong don't you think? Or a magicka DK with magicka fury and S&B ult since take flight is cheap anyways. Once those stacks are up the hot from healing staff and regen pots or the strength of shields would be multiplied. The cost of using those sets that require procs for stamina suers is you are likely going to be in melee range and inside overlaps fields of fire. And you take as much siege damage as any other armor combination except the one set that reduces siege damage. If there were a magicka version people would complain the game is imbalanced because magicka skills provide more mobility for certain classes and more control on damage intake.

Besides that if a magicka classes wants ultimate damage in heavy they can do spell strat and clever alchemist or spell strat and a more well rounded crafted heavy set.

Ruckly

An idea that might be good although it would be for light armor sets is a proc off taking shield damage for sorcs. The idea as a whole would be more complicated than the first sentence to offer variety to sorcs i.e. a set with a 5 piece bonus which you can choose from a number of different 5 piece bonus options that proc off shields. Or you can make it a passive but that would be restrictive. Maybe add an extra gear slot in the next chapter? This idea buried in Tank Meta domination will probably never see any light.

technohic

@JackDaniell you ask the question; but isn't this your video?

https://youtu.be/DsIz7L830Ks

If you can kill by procs that have no respect to damage , max stat, and penetration stats light or medium armor provide, and with no resources consumed; then why would you not turtle up?

What's more is they release a new set every update to make sure there's something else to move to.

Xvorg

I can't play in heavy. I try and try and just can't, so I go light or medium depending if it's stam or magicka... but maybe that's because I learnt, long ago, that I can't win all the fights.

I kill often buy I die often. With heavy I can't kill often and I die almost the same than in medium or light.

Ruckly

I decided to play a light armor toon something I had planned for a while but I didn't have the gear prepped but seeing this thread I took a look at how weak light armor is compared to heavy. I went 5 piece Jorvuld's Guidance all blue no impen(no clue what traits are on it other than it not being impen) + either Skooma Smuggler frost staff or War Maiden fire staff depending on what I'm fighting + Mighty Chudan. It works I expected to get fragged by snipers but I lived. The 8.4 second shield and Panacea seems to make it possible. It works in BGs too. It's not a super 17-0 BG build but I am usually at around even maybe more deaths than kills but I get heals off so I would say I am par for the course. This on a templar.

I almost wish I had a magicka DK. 42 seconds of major expedition + the dot from Panacea lets you run in the middle and with ball groups and with a magicka DK you could spam talons for 5 seconds .

Steelshiv

I honestly don't mind the tank meta. Gives me a Target to charge ultimate on. Also, most of them are so stacked in defense that they have 0 burst. After I'm done charging ulti on em I typically play the lute real quick as thanks then move along.

Iskras

Solution: zerg it