question for motif dev team, this will be deleted VERY FAST

BoneShatterer

i have to ask... being a long time player of the TES franchise up to now.... and having plowed skyrim, NOT ESO, to the point where i can simply make a wizard 0-81-0 and still turn any player made monster into a my personnal toilet paper and having tryed each mod so far.......

i have to ask the guys making the motifs.... is the owner of the mod immersive armor and immersive weapon being paid for the copying of the stuff he created over the years that zenimax and bethesda are using ?

because really... i took a moment yesterday and noticed that scalecaller is copyed from immersive weapons and armor mods. weirldy enough i went throgh the motifs and noticed that there is alot of motifs copyed from the immerisve weapons and armor mods that youguys are claiming as your own creation.....

so yeah is the maker of this mod recieiving anything?

Salvas_Aren

The maker of the mod you mention did not make all of them himself, afaik.

However, he made some good looking ones, and I can remember that they startet using his armors or very similar ones, at least since the release of Orsinium.

BoneShatterer

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

The maker of the mod you mention did not make all of them himself, afaik.

However, he made some good looking ones, and I can remember that they startet using his armors or very similar ones, at least since the release of Orsinium.

iirc same it was a mix of various modders who gave him the right but im still curious to know if hes aware of this or not

Jameliel

BoneShatterer wrote: »

i have to ask... being a long time player of the TES franchise up to now.... and having plowed skyrim, NOT ESO, to the point where i can simply make a wizard 0-81-0 and still turn any player made monster into a my personnal toilet paper and having tryed each mod so far.......

i have to ask the guys making the motifs.... is the owner of the mod immersive armor and immersive weapon being paid for the copying of the stuff he created over the years that zenimax and bethesda are using ?

because really... i took a moment yesterday and noticed that scalecaller is copyed from immersive weapons and armor mods. weirldy enough i went throgh the motifs and noticed that there is alot of motifs copyed from the immerisve weapons and armor mods that youguys are claiming as your own creation.....

so yeah is the maker of this mod recieiving anything?

From what I've seen, there is less than a 1% chance you will get a reply from any dev here. I have several emails and addresses you can try if you PM me.

therift

Bethesda can copy any modder's designs, ideas, or any content in the mod as they see fit, because Bethesda owns the mod.

Read the EULA for the creation kits for Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO. You will see that all copyright passes from the mod author to Bethesda as soon as the mod is distributed

Mods are derivative works of Bethesda copyrights. Even if the specific language in the EULA were not present, the author of the mod would have a very difficult time defending against a Bethesda copyright claim. The EULA carves Bethesda's ownership in stone.

edit: modified sentence #5 for clarity

MrGraves

therift wrote: »

Bethesda can copy any modder's designs, ideas, or any content in the mod as they see fit, because Bethesda owns the mod.

Read the EULA for the creation kits for Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO. You will see that all copyright passes from the mod author to Bethesda as soon as the mod is distributed

Mods are derivative works of Bethesda copyrights. Even if the specific language in the EULA were not present, the author of the mod would have a very difficult time defending against a Bethesda copyright claim. The EULA carves Bethesda's ownership in stone.

edit: modified sentence #5 for clarity

I'm not sure how that would hold up for all mods though since alot of mods are ripping meshes/textures from other games. Even immersive armours is using assests from CD Projekt. Which isnt to say that the modders DESIGNS belong to CD Projekt because they used some assests from them on some armours. But not every mod 100% belongs to bethesda I don't think. IDK. Maybe they will start making thomas the tank engine games though now since that was added into skyrim with mods.


I don't really think Zeni is copying immersive armours though IMO atleast in the case of the scalecaller thing. I'm not really sure which armour OP is thinking looks like scalecaller though? i can only guess and my best guess is the dragonhide robes. (correct me if i'm wrong) in wheich case I'm pretty sure the dragonhide robes is based on Dragonscale, a base game skyrim armour. and Scalecaller is probably kinda based on the dragon styled things from skyrim liek dragonscale and the dragon priests. IDK about the other armours though.

therift

" But not every mod 100% belongs to bethesda I don't think. IDK. Maybe they will start making thomas the tank engine games though now since that was added into skyrim with mods."

You would be thinking incorrectly, for two reasons:

1) The mods are derivative works.

2) The mod author surrenders any and all copyright upon distribution according to the EULA signed by the mod author.


Regarding Thomas the Tank Engine(tm): I have seen videos of that mod. It's cute. Thomas is intellectual property owned by HIT Entertainment, which is now a subsidiary of Mattel. Mattel could, at any time, sue the author of that mod for copyright infringement. The fact that Mattel has not done so should not be taken as permission.

Any intellectual property that belongs to someone else that is used by a mod author is problematic unless the mod author has secured copyright permission or used public domain or royalty-free intellectual property. Perhaps the copyright owners are unaware of the theft 'borrowing'. Perhaps they don't care. Perhaps they are individuals without the means to pursue the thieves 'borrowers'. Or perhaps they're biding their time, counting downloads, until the infringement claim runs to tens of millions of dollars. It is largely irrelevant if the mod was provided for free or not.

Which gets back to OP's original question.

Those mod authors surrendered their copyright on intellectual property to Bethesda. Case closed

Those mod authors also assured Bethesda that everything used in the mod was their own creation, or public domain, or came with permission of the copyright holder(s). If they used intellectual property or copyrighted material belonging to someone else, and if Bethesda were to pursued by the IP/copyright owner(s)...

...the mod author could be subject to a lawsuit from both Bethesda and the owners of the IP/copyright that was infringed.

Imagine spending the rest of your life paying off a judgment because you thought it would be cool to make it possible for thousands of Skyrim fans around the world to fight Thomas the Tank(tm) instead of a dragon.

Certainly food for thought.

MrGraves

I mean the thomas thing was kinda a joke but not really my point.

I don't think the person who made the mod (immersive armors, not the thomas mod) is using their own things/ideas entirely. It would be like making a Star Trek fan character then later a character of somewhat similar design appears in the franchise and trying to sue for them copying your character when you copied their stuff to make that character. If that makes sense? Though I'm pretty sure Zenimax isn't copying the mod for designs in this case.


What I mean't by the Thomas mod is that the thing with the EULA also depends on if Bethesda CAN legally own the things you make in creation kit. Such as the Thomas thing being not the case. Which obviously the Modder, also does not own Thomas, but neither does Bethesda. I wasn't trying to discredit your point, I was just pointing out that there's sometimes a little more too it than just Bethesda's word on such a thing. Because Bethesda would get in trouble for using Thomas which doesn't belong to them, even if their EULA does state that. All the things that people use CK to make a mod with still have to be made legally with the person making the mod having the rights/being able to say they can hand the intellectual property to Bethesda.

Salvas_Aren

One thing you also should consider is the question whether a modder CAN transfer any copyrights to Bethesda.

I don't want to sound rude, but I believe this is a typical American thingy that ppl always consider ToSes, EULAs etc. valid just because they are there.

I rather tend to question such terms and clauses. It feels like you borrow a knife to carve a fancy spoon and the owner of the knife owns the spoon (or rather the design of it) once you're done. Therefore, it's no surprise that many legal systems would not allow such a transfer of copyright.

What I would see as a problem, or rather a reason, why Bethesda might indeed claim ownership of such a mod might be the heavy use of Bethesda-made content. Some of the armors look like they are just rearrangements of vanilla meshes.

MrGraves

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

One thing you also should consider is the question whether a modder CAN transfer any copyrights to Bethesda.

I don't want to sound rude, but I believe this is a typical American thingy that ppl always consider ToSes, EULAs etc. valid just because they are there.

I rather tend to question such terms and clauses. It feels like you borrow a knife to carve a fancy spoon and the owner of the knife owns the spoon (or rather the design of it) once you're done. Therefore, it's no surprise that many legal systems would not allow such a transfer of copyright.

What I would see as a problem, or rather a reason, why Bethesda might indeed claim ownership of such a mod might be the heavy use of Bethesda-made content. Some of the armors look like they are just rearrangements of vanilla meshes.

^ the mod did give credit to skyims assests too which I think is probably not just using CK. The EULA I think though MAY be valid in some cases. Though for the most part alot of it is to prevent users from using copyrighted things they do not own (Things not in the game that's being modified and not owned by the creator) And to prevent the user of CK from profiting off of a mod which is using assests which the creator of said mod does not own. In which case why would the modder be profitting from zenimax using his work/ideas IF it had been the case of zenimax using his work. (though it seems pretty obvious he's using bethesda's work not just with CK but the idea of the dragonhide and assests from skyrim)

therift

"I mean the thomas thing was kinda a joke but not really my point."

Oh, I understand. But it was a great example to use to illustrate some of the perils in creating content derived from or incorporating intellectual property owned by others.

Your Star Trek(c) example touches on the areas of fan fiction and 'fair use' exceptions to copyright law, which can best be summarized as 'flexible' and judged on a case-by-case example. And yes, you make sense, and you're correct... you can't claim and defend copyright on something you create that is derived from someone else's intellectual property, except in certain circumstances.

Saturday Night Live made several sketches that were parodies of Star Trek(c). These are clearly 'fair use' derivatives of IP owned by CBS/Paramount and would probably be safe from infringement claims. However, if someone were to recreate one of those parodies, and perhaps use Jim Carrey's lines verbatim, then that individual would be infringing on NBC. In fact, NBC once sued E! Entertainment to prevent E! from re-broadcasting those parodies.


You are correct on your final point as well. A mod author who uses someone else's IP cannot transfer copyright ownership of that IP to Bethesda (which is implied by the 'don't use unpermitted stuff you don't own') clause of the EULA. But I imagine if such a thing were to happen, and if Bethesda had to respond to a valid copyright claim against a mod that had been distributed, that they would not sit idly by and take hits because some damn fool doesn't understand what 'copyright' and 'permission' mean.

therift

"I rather tend to question such terms and clauses. It feels like you borrow a knife to carve a fancy spoon and the owner of the knife owns the spoon (or rather the design of it) once you're done. Therefore, it's no surprise that many legal systems would not allow such a transfer of copyright."

Interesting proposition.

Staying within your analogy, the spoon would be a new intellectual property unless it copied the design of the knife. That's a simplistic answer, but if we subject the analogy to too much analysis, it ceases to be useful.

Under American copyright law, it is very difficult to create new intellectual property derived from someone else's intellectual property, unless it is clearly within the 'fair use' doctrine. Art (such as a comedic parody sketch) and scholarly research are two common examples. Fair Use is not something that can be given a clear definition in all cases and variations; these are often decided individually in court. Bear in mind Bethesda is a U.S. subsidiary of a U.S. firm. They would most likely avail themselves of U.S. law wherever possible.

Author J.K. Rowling once won a lawsuit against an American citizen for copyright infringement. A fan had created an online encyclopedia of her Harry Potter(c) fantasy universe. Initially, the website was small, and even won praise from Rowling for it's quality as fan fiction (Fair Use doctrine as well as limited copyright use permission).

However, this fan was a touch obsessive. The simple encyclopedia grew in time to a massive work that attracted interest from an American book publisher to produce a printed version. This was outside Rowling's limited permission, so Rowling and Warner Bros. sued to prevent publication, won a small settlement, and won control over the fan-created website, which subsequently became the basis of a printed encyclopedia produced by Rowling.

The lesson is that anything created that is derived from another's intellectual property, excepting Fair Use purposes, is essentially the property of the entity from whom the work is derived. Another lesson is that although the original IP owner may give limited permission, if you annoy her, she might just take back everything you created that was derived from her IP.

The lesson for mod authors, or for any content creator working within someone else's creation, is to be damn careful, to be thorough in documenting permissions or public domain, and to expect to surrender ownership either at the time of creation or anytime the orginal IP owner cares to take possession.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Welcome to corporations. Masters of being on the right side of the law, with a big enough legal team. Very weak when it comes to innovation once they get established.

Fortunately, The Elder Scrolls has a very ravenous fan base and Zeni/Beth/etc can just suck creativity and talent from their own fans free of charge. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of ideas eventually used come from fans but are never acknowledged or credited. That is why Bethesda wanted paid mods for skyrim. So they could sell the communities ideas right back to them. It's a funny time to be alive.

IsharaMeradin

therift wrote: »

Bethesda can copy any modder's designs, ideas, or any content in the mod as they see fit, because Bethesda owns the mod.

Read the EULA for the creation kits for Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO. You will see that all copyright passes from the mod author to Bethesda as soon as the mod is distributed

Mods are derivative works of Bethesda copyrights. Even if the specific language in the EULA were not present, the author of the mod would have a very difficult time defending against a Bethesda copyright claim. The EULA carves Bethesda's ownership in stone.

edit: modified sentence #5 for clarity

I have to disagree on just one point. The passing of rights and the protecting of those rights as listed in the EULA is not a passing of ownership. If Bethesda wanted to claim ownership of any mod created by the EULA, the EULA would have indicated "ownership" rather than "rights". A "right" is the allowance of a certain action. "Ownership" is gaining complete control over a product.

This does not mean that they cannot use mod ideas / assets, they can. What it does mean is that they cannot tell a mod author to remove their mod from a particular hosting site provided that hosting site fits within the criteria mentioned within the EULA. This is why Nexus Mods has the rules that they have, to ensure a safe place to host mod files not just for Bethesda games but for any game that can be modded.

therift

"Welcome to corporations. Masters of being on the right side of the law, with a big enough legal team. Very weak when it comes to innovation once they get established."

Copyright laws protect corporations an individuals equally.

Two examples:

1) My daughter is an artist, specifically with digital art and anime style fantasy characters. By the time she turned 18, she had to pursue infringement claims three times to protect her intellectual property. Her first case, when she was just 14, was won without any help from me. The third case was won against a corporation. Copyright thieves are everywhere.

2) An American couple own a photography studio and operate a blog that discusses techniques in photographic art. An Australian follower sent them pictures taken of a display of iPod(tm) accessories in a mid-size Australian retail chain store. The iPod(tm) accesory packaging incorporated one of the couple's photographs, specifically a photographic art piece of the wife that had been lifted from their blog and modified to suit the packaging.

The couple hired both an American and an Australian law firm to sue the accessory manufacturer for copyright infringement. The case stretched for months before being adjudicated in the couple's favor. They spent substantially more in legal fees than they recovered in damages, but they succeeded in their primary goal, which was to force the accessory manufacture to recall some 300,000 products that had been shipped to retail, cancel a print run of additional packaging, and to compel repackaging of every single accessory the manufacturer had produced to date.

The lessons to be learned are that copyright law will protect you no matter how young you may be or how minor your work may be considered, and that you can fight, win, and punish IP thieves wherever copyright protection exists.

therift

"Fortunately, The Elder Scrolls has a very ravenous fan base and Zeni/Beth/etc can just suck creativity and talent from their own fans free of charge. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of ideas eventually used come from fans but are never acknowledged or credited. That is why Bethesda wanted paid mods for skyrim. So they could sell the communities ideas right back to them. It's a funny time to be alive."

When you create something derived from someone else's ideas, and you agree to surrender your idea as a condition of publishing, your creativity isn't being 'sucked' from you, and you aren't owed a penny.

If that bothers you, then what you should do is create your own fantasy realm, as thousands of authors have done, and reap the rewards from your creativity, rather than squandering that creativity by leeching off someone else's creativity.

You could be the next J.K. Rowling, or the next Christopher Weaver. It's always better to be a creator instead of a follower.

eso_lags

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Welcome to corporations. Masters of being on the right side of the law, with a big enough legal team. Very weak when it comes to innovation once they get established.

Fortunately, The Elder Scrolls has a very ravenous fan base and Zeni/Beth/etc can just suck creativity and talent from their own fans free of charge. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of ideas eventually used come from fans but are never acknowledged or credited. That is why Bethesda wanted paid mods for skyrim. So they could sell the communities ideas right back to them. It's a funny time to be alive.

Agreed. I mean this particular issue doesn't seem that bad to me, tbh, because if its going to make for something cool in the game, and they have access to it, then great. But it just seems like zos always does the bare minimum in this game.. There is so much missed opportunity and major game breaking issues, that seem to persist through the years, in this game.. It just seems like a pattern of cutting corners, and trying to cash grab at all costs, in eso.

Im not sure if developers just get lazy when they get a loyal fan base, or if the cost of doing business, today, is too high.. I mean the creation club definitely seemed like a shady mess but at least most Bethesda games were amazing up until fallout 4, which was passable. But eso and fallout 76? Eso has so much potential but just needs to have some issues actually acknowledged and some more care put into it.. It seems like the dev team loved the game when they made it, but now it seems like a lot of that has faded. But fallout 76 just seems like a cash grab. And i actually like 76 a bit, but thats only because im a fallout fan.

myskyrim26

BoneShatterer wrote: »

i have to ask the guys making the motifs.... is the owner of the mod immersive armor and immersive weapon being paid for the copying of the stuff he created over the years that zenimax and bethesda are using ?

Why on the earth do you think you have the right to ask this question? It is not your business. You don't have any reason to ask the devs or the mod owner. It is a matter between those 2 parties, and you have nothing to do with it.
Maybe the author wasn't paid. Maybe he was paid. Maybe he is actually the one who creates ESO motifs - maybe he was offered a job, full-time, or part-time, whatever. Anyway, it is NOT your business.

therift

IsharaMeradin wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Bethesda can copy any modder's designs, ideas, or any content in the mod as they see fit, because Bethesda owns the mod.

Read the EULA for the creation kits for Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO. You will see that all copyright passes from the mod author to Bethesda as soon as the mod is distributed

Mods are derivative works of Bethesda copyrights. Even if the specific language in the EULA were not present, the author of the mod would have a very difficult time defending against a Bethesda copyright claim. The EULA carves Bethesda's ownership in stone.

edit: modified sentence #5 for clarity

I have to disagree on just one point. The passing of rights and the protecting of those rights as listed in the EULA is not a passing of ownership. If Bethesda wanted to claim ownership of any mod created by the EULA, the EULA would have indicated "ownership" rather than "rights". A "right" is the allowance of a certain action. "Ownership" is gaining complete control over a product.

This does not mean that they cannot use mod ideas / assets, they can. What it does mean is that they cannot tell a mod author to remove their mod from a particular hosting site provided that hosting site fits within the criteria mentioned within the EULA. This is why Nexus Mods has the rules that they have, to ensure a safe place to host mod files not just for Bethesda games but for any game that can be modded.

I agree with you. I'm writing all this using a small tablet, which isn't easy, and I've been somewhat loose with the finer points of 'ownership' versus 'rights'. The distinction is important precisely as you have stated.

Salvas_Aren also touched on this issue in post #9.

Writing on a tiny tablet also makes it looking up reference sources difficult. Considering the examples I have added, it would have been better to provide links for interested readers to read the source material themselves.

SaintSubwayy

therift wrote: »

2) The mod author surrenders any and all copyright upon distribution according to the EULA signed by the mod author.

I wouldnt be sure if this would hold up IF a mod is trying to sue Bethesda for stealiing his intelectual Property.

This could backfire onto Betheasda...but I guess good lawyers make the difference here xD

Jimmy

This is a NON-Issue.

Bethesda owns every design inputted into the mods that are created for any Elder Scrolls game. The author of the mod AGREED to this when they certainly read the fine print for mod creation.

Move along.

zaria

therift wrote: »

Bethesda can copy any modder's designs, ideas, or any content in the mod as they see fit, because Bethesda owns the mod.

Read the EULA for the creation kits for Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO. You will see that all copyright passes from the mod author to Bethesda as soon as the mod is distributed

Mods are derivative works of Bethesda copyrights. Even if the specific language in the EULA were not present, the author of the mod would have a very difficult time defending against a Bethesda copyright claim. The EULA carves Bethesda's ownership in stone.

edit: modified sentence #5 for clarity

They own the mod, they do not own the underlying 3d model of the armor that is owned by its creator.
And yes you could sell the armor for use in poser or other software before making it an Skyrim mod.
You can also continue to do that afterward.
Purpose of saying they own all mods is simply that you can not sell your mods without Bethesda agreement.

And obvious you can not sue Bethesda for copying their mod in games. Lots of features like containers who look open and plants look harvested was first an mod.

driosketch

I'm not familiar with this mod. There are already such long detailed posts in this thread. But for my own curiosity's sake, does anyone have pic of an example?

tactx

driosketch wrote: »

I'm not familiar with this mod. There are already such long detailed posts in this thread. But for my own curiosity's sake, does anyone have pic of an example?

This exactly. I would like to see some comparison screenshots of a few examples.

Merlin13KAGL

tactx wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

I'm not familiar with this mod. There are already such long detailed posts in this thread. But for my own curiosity's sake, does anyone have pic of an example?

This exactly. I would like to see some comparison screenshots of a few examples.

I expect that's more work than OP cares to put forth for a clickbait thread.

Stratloc

For a thread that will be deleted VERY FAST it has been around for quite a while now

G1Countdown

Define "very fast"

Stratloc

G1Countdown wrote: »

Define "very fast"

VERY FAST

Salvas_Aren

Jimmy wrote: »

This is a NON-Issue.

Bethesda owns every design inputted into the mods that are created for any Elder Scrolls game. The author of the mod AGREED to this when they certainly read the fine print for mod creation.

Move along.

Take into consideration that some legal systems might declare such agreements null and void per se. If the modder is not an American, this could be important.

ghastley

I don't believe it. I took a look at the Immersive Armours collection, and there's no sign of a Tasset Obsession. And the Pauldrons all fit properly.

Konstant_Tel_Necris

Can you please provide screenshots for comparison? Because from what I saw scalecaller is done in Dragon Priest style what belongs to Bethesda from beginning, while Immersive Armors mostly are mashup of vanilla Skyrim assets.