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The furniture item cap is a lie

Carbonised
Carbonised
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Time and time again we have heard that the item cap is there because ZOS simply cannot offer us more item slots due to "performance reasons". From how ZOS, and some apologetic players, make it sound like, the entire game would implode into a black hole the moment we pass the magical 700 item limit.

Well, preparing for decorating my Observatory home, I put about 500 items in a small, closed space to get an overview of my items. This is how it looked:

i5BvgsY.jpg

About 500 items, big and small, most of them animated or casting light sources. Now, I'm playing on an older laptop, and while I did notice a decrease in fps when in this room with all the items, it was still very playable and nowhere near threatening to the existance of this place or another. I had visitors over, and they also said they had a slight decrease in fps, but nothing very noticable.
If I can fit 500 animated and light casting items in a tiny space like this, when why in hell's blazes can't I fit more than 700 items in an overblown mansion cositing of several separated zones. The item limit is a lie, there is nothing preventing this.

Also, do notice that the latest DLC upped the limit for "special collectibles" to 100 items, that is, 100 items exceeding the 700 "normal" item limit. These 100 "extra" items can unfortunately only be used for undaunted trophies. So clearly these homes can hold 800 items, zos just decided for us that 100 of these should be spent/wasted on undaunted trophies. If you're not into that, you can't use your 100 slots for anything else, and they're just wasted. The item cap is a lie. Zos could easily increase it, but for reasons unknown, they will not.
  • thatlaurachick
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    nuvak wrote: »
    I would guess the problems are not in the rendering, so having light sources and putting it in a small space misses the point. Probably the problems are in sceneloading, server-databases or similar places, I assume the engine was not made for loading that many dynamic objects and scales badly at some point. Of course that means you could probably put >500 even in a small house, but they also want to make a distinction there.

    You know the bug where you get endless loading screens entering houses? It could be this kind of stuff they want to minimize, and not a fps-issue.

    This is the correct answer. The reason furniture grouping was implemented in game wasn't because ZOS likes us, but most likely becasue EHT was spamming the server with individual item move requests.
    Unfortunately Necessary Signature:

    MAX CP, played since beta, yes I know the game. Also worked in software dev/ops so yes, I know what I'm talking about.

    If you read this and rolled your eyes, maybe you need to stop assuming women don't know ***.
  • nuvak
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    That does nothing to explain why:
    • 100 slots have been reserved solely for undaunted trophies
    • the limit for smaller houses is significantly lower than 700 (try decorating Saint Delyn with 30 items)
    • they haven't implemented the "merging" of smaller items into a single, larger item with only 1 object, sort of what you can already do with the parent/child function in game
    • They want you to be able to place all trophies. Of course there is some margin and headroom, which they probably use here. It's not that anything would break with 701 items, nor with 800. It's not a hard cap, it's a soft one, probably derived from testing and worst case scenarios.
    • As I said, they want to differentiate the house sizes. Of course it's bad for the small houses, but it's another incentive to buy a bigger home. Could you imagine the uproar if a big house would only have 50 places more than the small one? Sure, you can critizise these two decisions, but it proofs nothing with respect to technical difficulties.
    • Merging smaller items would yield nothing if it's not done completely, that is down to merging the objects itself in the database. You would essential create a new item for any merged, and that information has to be passed to any client visiting the house, which has to do the same merging ... doesn't sound like a good strategy. Not impossible, and if the engine had been developed with this situation in mind, it probably would be easier now to increase the cap. But I assume it has not, and now the devs are working around the limitations, but keeping their fingers off of any real big change to the engine. Grouping can lower the traffic and is convenient, but if it comes to loading, the game will just look up what's in the group and load the pieces, one for one.
    Edited by nuvak on December 1, 2018 4:18PM
  • Jayne_Doe
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    @nuvak I'm sorry but you're not adressing any of the issues I mentioned, you're just spreading smoke screens around. "They want you to be able to place all trophies?" how does that even justify taking 100 furniture slots and designating them specifically for one type of furnishings, instead of having the player choose. "They want to differentiate house sizes", how does that even justify having an extremely tiny limit of 30 items, even with double items for eso+?
    But it's ok, it's not your job to answer this anyway, you're not zos. I made my post simply to prove that even my old laptop can manage 500 lights and animated items in a small location just fine, and to raise a stir about continually increasing the limit for collectible furnishings, while not even once having raised the limit of "normal" items ever since housing began 2 years ago.

    As far as trophies, which are collectibles. Is it possible that because they are a collectible and can be placed in all homes simultaneously, that they aren't treated as an actual item? Or, at least not treated in the same way as furnishing items, which are inventory items. It's just a guess that because they are collectibles, they don't work the same way as traditional inventory furnishings.

    As for the size of the space. I really don't think that matters. If ZOS allowed it, we could place 700 items in all of our homes.
    We all know that homes are not all the same size in each category. I can put the same number of items in Snugpod as I can in Twin Arches, e.g. So, I think the limit on the smaller homes is arbitrary, designed to make the 700 slot limit on the notables look better. Want more space? Buy a larger home (even though, technically, we could give you that 700 slots on your small/medium home). Also, I can put 700 items in Tel Galen, a notable, even though it's quite a bit smaller than many of the other notables.

    So in your experiment, I don't think it matters that you can fit 500 in just one room. People have been doing that already, blocking off parts of their home so that they can make the smaller portion they're decorating look more cluttered/lived in. ZOS have provided a variety of sizes in homes to fit various budgets and desires (some players really don't want giant monstrosities). But, the size of the space doesn't matter in terms of how many objects you can place in it. You can only place 100/200 objects in a small home because that's the number of slots that ZOS has allowed for a small home. Not because the space can't handle more, but because they want to offer more slots at the next tier of homes, all the way up to the performance limit they've set at 350/700.

    At least, that's my take on it. Now, whether or not 700 is truly the max, I have no idea, and I'm not arguing that it's not possible that we could have more than 700. Just that how big or small a space is doesn't matter in terms of how many objects can actually fit in it (aside from the arbitrary limits ZOS have placed on them). As for the trophies, I'm speculating that they work differently from standard inventory items, but I don't know anything about coding, so it could be that they want to cater to the players who "have to show off every trophy in the same home." So, maybe we are capped at 700 because they want to keep expanding a category of furnishings that I don't care one whit about.
  • Nestor
    Nestor
    Community Ambassador
    Here is a counter to the OP. How is it in ZOS Interest to keep the item count at some limit? Don't say money because you know they would put the upgrades on the Crown Store in a minute if that was their angle. I bet their marketing people are just as frustrated as we are.

    Also, no where in the OP did I see more than one player, or any dueling going on, which the item limit also has to take into consideration.
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"

  • mayasunrising
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Also, no where in the OP did I see more than one player, or any dueling going on, which the item limit also has to take into consideration.

    My understanding of the issues is this as well. More specifically it has to do with calculating collision detecting. Maybe it's fine on the older lap top (spec would be handy for ZOS by the way and "Older" is relative as far as what people use to game) with the system calculating collision for one person running around? But what about two dueling? Three? More? But (again as I understanding this becomes exponentially more taxing on systems and would eventually - and rather quickly - start to cause crashes. Since most games are designed to cater to the lowest common denominator as far as systems go (hence minimum system specs) ZOS has likely selected their soft limit based off "older" systems.

    Anyway, I'm mostly just talking out my butt. lol In the end I wish I could have more slots to, but honestly I've seen people do some seriously amazing stuff with what we have and wonder some times if we just need to be more creative? Myself included.

  • Carbonised
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Here is a counter to the OP. How is it in ZOS Interest to keep the item count at some limit? Don't say money because you know they would put the upgrades on the Crown Store in a minute if that was their angle. I bet their marketing people are just as frustrated as we are.

    Also, no where in the OP did I see more than one player, or any dueling going on, which the item limit also has to take into consideration.

    Of course it's money. With a low item cap they intend to sell more houses, as people can't make all their ideas come true in just 1 house, or 2.

    Other than that, your guess is as good as mine. They have refused to answer all questions about this ridiculous cap, and the only thing we heard was something mentioned when they had players over to playtest Summerset, weren't you onw of them?

    In any case, it would really be appropriate to have an official statement about this very low item cap, and what they're intending to do about it, considering the many, many complaints they have gotten over this by now. But we all now that when it comes to the crown store, or monetization, ZOS is as tight lipped as ever, and we never get a response. Which makes it safe to assume that they're keeping the item cap low, for monetization reasons.
  • Sotha_Sil
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    R_K wrote: »
    Also, please watch my FPS...

    Performance (1,890 Animated Effects & ~450 Furnishings) of Essential Housing Tools on a Potato CPU



    completely unrelated note but... how did you do that ?! is there a furnishing for portals?
    Edited by Sotha_Sil on December 5, 2018 8:09PM
    Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!
  • mayasunrising
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    Sotha_Sil wrote: »
    R_K wrote: »
    Also, please watch my FPS...

    Performance (1,890 Animated Effects & ~450 Furnishings) of Essential Housing Tools on a Potato CPU



    completely unrelated note but... how did you do that ?! is there a furnishing for portals?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/447659/customize-your-home-with-3d-essential-effects-tm-beta-from-essential-housing-tools#latest

    B)
  • R_K
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    Sotha_Sil wrote: »
    R_K wrote: »
    Also, please watch my FPS...

    Performance (1,890 Animated Effects & ~450 Furnishings) of Essential Housing Tools on a Potato CPU



    completely unrelated note but... how did you do that ?! is there a furnishing for portals?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/447659/customize-your-home-with-3d-essential-effects-tm-beta-from-essential-housing-tools#latest

    B)

    @mayasunrising <3 :wink:
    @Cardinal05 // Geezus Take The Heal (PC, NA) // Divine Design Alliance
    Add-on Developer // Essential Housing Tools - Magic Carpet - DecoTrack - Guild Alert
  • R_K
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    Nestor wrote: »
    None of the threads I see on the item cap, including this one, are talking about how they have 1000 pieces of furniture and no place to put it. People complain about not being able to put more that the 300 to 700 items we currently have a cap on.

    So, no it is not a ploy to sell more houses, especially as there are 15, or more zones worth that have houses that sell for in game gold. In other words, this would be the stupidest marketing strategy to sell more houses. It makes no sense. I have seen some dumb marketing in my 55 years on this planet, but this would be up/down there with New Coke.

    I also have to wonder how much this limit is a real problem for most folks. I have the Daggerfall Overlook and I use it for a warehouse. I have 700 items in there, and I don't really know where I could put something else and see it. And have it aethestically pleasing. I am sure there is a bunch of small clutter people want to fill their houses with, so it's not inconcievable that some could use more slots.

    Now, instead of accusing ZOS of some unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that requires them to be mean uncaring individuals cackling over the plight of their customers, request something that can be done. Be constructive. The performance issue is real, no matter how much you don't want it to be. Because that just deflates the ZOS devs are meanies argument. And no one has yet show a fully loaded house with a full load of players and dueling going on.

    Instead, ask for interiors to be seperate cell loads from exteriors. Then there can be more furniture in a house. Yes you get a cell load, but it is a small price to pay for a solution that can be implimented in days or weeks and does not require a complete overhaul of the engine.

    @Nestor Two suggestions: Consider the tone of your public forum replies given your role and use spell check.
    @Cardinal05 // Geezus Take The Heal (PC, NA) // Divine Design Alliance
    Add-on Developer // Essential Housing Tools - Magic Carpet - DecoTrack - Guild Alert
  • immozz01
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    wth does a post about max item limit that is actually giving proof turn into personal qqing and changing the subject?...…

    stick to the topic in the way it is presented.

    gj @R_K , from what I was reading in other posts, the technical issue is basically the ancient versions of xbox and the number of players you put it in a house? (more of a personal question to verify)

    ESO is running on several platforms, all with different specs and possibilities, obviously ZOS could easily allow more slots for PC, because pc can easily handle it. Why not give access to that with an addon? everyone's own choice and risk if they use it or not.
  • Aurelle1
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    If I may say so, the separate cells notion is sensible, but is something that has already been requested in many threads. There's nothing new about the idea, and nothing much in the way of player concern about the loading screens. And most comments have indeed said that the loading screens are a small price to pay for increased item limits.

    It's down to @ZO$ who have so far declined to even discuss it, and are clearly not fussed about actually doing anything about it, or anything else for that matter.

    And you may think that you came down on both sides of the issue regarding people wanting that increased item limit, but you are heavily biased towards the opinion that, and I quote you here..... 'it's not inconceivable that some could use more slots'. This statement does not reflect the vast number of unhappy home owners who very much do want more slots.

    I also take issue with the fact that you say that 'And, no I am not guessing as to why the limit is in place, I know why the limit is in place. I got that information straight from the game designers in a face to face conversation.'. Has it not occurred to you that, as a community ambassador, the designers might just be feeding you information that they want relayed back to the housing player base?
  • Tigerseye
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    Nestor wrote: »

    I also have to wonder how much this limit is a real problem for most folks. I have the Daggerfall Overlook and I use it for a warehouse. I have 700 items in there, and I don't really know where I could put something else and see it. And have it aethestically pleasing. I am sure there is a bunch of small clutter people want to fill their houses with, so it's not inconcievable that some could use more slots.

    I have warehouse houses, as well, at (or near) item cap most of the time (although, they're not Notables, in my case) and yes, they tend to look fairly full.

    Especially the ones that have a fairly small house on a larger plot.

    As opposed to, say, the Artaeum house, or the Hew's Bane Palace; both of which have very large interior spaces.

    However, I think that is; a) due to the visual nature of randomly placed clutter vs properly placed furnishings, b) that we tend to store more large items of furniture in houses than we do lots of little items and c) that we don't, also, try to furnish the gardens of our warehouses very much.

    Or, alternatively, if we dump things near the entrance, we don't then try to also furnish the interior of the warehouse home.

    It is perfectly possible to fill a large interior with large items, within the current item cap, but not being able to use any/many medium and small items results in a lack of visual variety and causes the place to look unfinished and/or unlived in.

    Come and see my Hew's Bane Palace for an example of that.

    I've made it into a kind of bar/tearoom/restaurant and although it is nearly fully furnished at 700 slots, it is still somewhat cold and impersonal (and a little dark in the bedrooms).

    No one would say it is cluttered-looking (although, it does have a lot of lights!).

    Even 25/50 more traditional furnishing slots would make a big difference when it comes to finishing design concepts and/or making large interiors look at least somewhat lived in.

    If that had to be at the expense of losing the ability to place up to 100 trophies (in that particular house), then I would be absolutely fine with that, personally.

    I doubt most people do housing to have all their trophies displayed in multiple houses and even if they do, they would then, presumably, be happy to stick at the lower traditional furnishings limit.

    They could let you place traditional furnishing number 351/701, but with a message saying that you were now in the bonus allocation of 25/50 additional traditional furnishings and could, therefore, not place any trophies.

    ...and if you had already placed trophies, it could warn you that placing furnishing number 351/701 would cause those trophies to be automatically removed (confirm/deny).

    I appreciate this would mean extra work for the devs, but so many people complain about the furnishing cap (not just on here, but also in guild chat etc.) and don't buy the larger houses because of it, that I think it would be worthwhile.

    Also, the fact the larger interiors then looked better decorated would be a free advert; because it would encourage other players to buy these larger houses.

  • Tigerseye
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    Nestor wrote: »
    All I said was if you want some relief, here is what to ask for. The concern people have about seperate cells is the loading screens. If ZOS knows that people would be OK with it, they would be more inclined to change it.

    I would, personally, really prefer to avoid this, if at all possible.

    It would put me off ever going into my houses, where the entrance to the property is outside the house - or going into the garden, where the entrance is inside the house.

    I feel the toggle Trophies on/off solution (with more traditional furnishings allowed, if off) would be far more acceptable to most people.

    Edited by Tigerseye on December 6, 2018 1:44AM
  • The_Last_Titan
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    I would like the 2 "instances" per house, just click the house on the map says go to inside or outside, section 1 or 2, whichever way. I just wayshrine there anyways, i could teleport inside my house. They would have to work on some houses though, like figure out how to make coldharbour estate 2 zones (one up top, one on the bottom level below?), some houses that don't have an exterior, separate loads for 1st and 2nd floors, adding a door to separate rooms, etc... it would take some effort but would be worth it.
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