Snipe

Vapirko

NuarBlack wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

I love how people have the audacity to defend carry noob builds lol.

I've never seen one 1vx video that wasn't the current crutch meta either. Get used to it, skills and gear always carry. All these so called "skilled" 1vxers are all running the same ***. Crutching on poisons, pots, bleeds, troll king, earthgore or whatever the current broken op meta is.

Now this isn't to say the bow line couldn't use some work. But it if it truly were fixed it would make it worse not better for you potatoes that don't think you should have to be capable of having the situational awareness to deal with ranged combatants as there really is no such thing as ranged combat in eso anymore outside of some stuff from the top of keeps. The whiners got sorc nerfed into the ground, mNB still has to close to use their ult in their burst combo and dps Magden or ranged magplar haven't been a thing in a long time although ranged magplar could make a comeback. Most the time all these so called "elite" players or people who play "real builds" don't even slot a gap closer cause melee dominates pvp so badly everyone comes to them. It's trash and boring gameplay now that everyone is running HA bleed builds with ult dump combos to finish.

Also sorry but due to the time to kill (really the prevalence of self heals) a ranged defile is needed. Now a trade off of some burst damage on snipe could be doable if it came with some other adjustments to the bow line. Snipe spammers don't spam snipe necessarily cause they are bad but cause it is the only thing they have. Poison inject, then snipe till poison inject needs re-upped. So if you are going to call for adjustments at least understand the skill line. Generic whining is what got us here in the first place. Everyone cried about ranged skills so what did eso do? Increased travel time on all ranged skills. This lead to 3-4 snipes being in the air and hitting you at what appears to be the same time cause they used that dumb bandaid fix instead optimizing the net code or addmiting cyro was a failed experiment and current gen systems were never going to be able to run it properly or that large scale pvp always turns into a zerg spam fest like in every other game to date.

Then Im certain you'd be happy to upload some of your amazing 1vX vids?

NuarBlack

IAVITNI wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

@IAVITNI
I like that you are clear and reasonable, even though I disagree with you.

Here is why elites don't use snipe: it's slow. Not because it's cheap. Or a zergbad playstyle or whatever. It's slow.

Cast+ flight time. In a good, direct fight very often the combo of these two means you dont do damage but your opponent has time to do whatever. An instant cast spammable would do more damage in the same time span. Meaning snipe isnt good for many face to face, level playing field fights.

But there are times when nothing beats snipe (get caught outside a castle marked? Think you can 1vx? Killing your horse's stamina? Running with little armor and little health? Afk? Enjoy your free trip to the wayshrine).

In those moments snipe should be strong and it is.

Sorry, regarding the "elite" statement, I meant the sniper playstyle of snipe into cloak and not the skill itself. Honestly the skill in a non-sniper/ranger build is so bad for the very reasons you pointed out that the idea of using it in a normal build didn't really occur to me. Many "elite" players have tried it. But they get bored of Sniper builds. I actually find it interesting when players fit snipe into a normal build. It is eventually removed, but its still interesting.

And I agree and disagree with the last part. When someone is 1vx'ing, survives the onslaught of 5 players for a good 3 minutes, kites and isolates 1-2 and preps for a kill burst only to get stunned and dropped to execute range as a result by a 3rd sniper AND is unable to recover because of Major Defile, that is just not healthy gameplay. The only other skills that have the same impact in a 1vx are ultimates. One is more likely to survive a meteor dump than a rogue Lethal Arrow. Lethal Arrow has the potential to actually apply more pressure than dawn breaker. The DoT from a DB can only be increased so much before players die before using it, but CP allows Major Defile to become ridiculous strong and defence is carried by Cloak.

Major Defile does not impact those that get caught outside a castle marked, those who run out of stamina on a mount or those with too little mitigation. It does however, completely reverse the flow of a battle in which the 1vx'er had had complete control over the tempo until a single non-ultimate skill was cast.

Reverb Bash stuns and applies Major Defile. Unlike Lethal Arrow it is melee so it has no cast time. However, it does not hit like an Incap. Reverb is balanced.

Dizzy Swing has a cooldown, a tooltip that potentially gets as high as Lethal Arrow and stuns. With the drawback being that it is melee. But it does not apply Major Defile. The reward is that the stun prevents recovery from the high damage. Dizzy Swing, under ideal server performance, is balanced,

A simple "scoring" breakdown, where Y = +1

Reverb: 3
Stun? Y
Defile? Y
Range? N
High Tooltip? N
Instant Cast? Y

Dizzy Swing: 2
Stun? Y
Defile? N
Range? N
High Tooltip? Y
Instant Cast? N

Snipe: 4
Stun? (virtually) Y
Defile? Y
Range? Y
High Tooltip? Y
Instant Cast? N

When you consider that high tooltips on skills that stun are EXTREMELY valuable, Snipe gains more advantages over Reverb. It stuns, has a high tooltip and applies Major Defile at range. And sure, the stun is not innate to Snipe, but Meteor is not innate to Rune Cage. Didn't make that combo any less OP.

Not only are players forced to recover from the stun, but they are unable to do so due to the Major Defile. That is where my issue with snipe is. 3 of the most powerful tools in PvP are stuns, big burst and defile.What other skill is able to do all 3 consistently? They also must then spend resources to move towards the sniper, something that is hard to do after breaking free and spamming defensive skills, that are the most costly in the game.

Remove Major Defile, maybe reduce it to Minor or replace it with something else. But Major Defile on a heavy hitting ranged skill that also stuns (considering 90% of snipers use cloak, yes it does stun) is just a bit too much. The skill needs a change. It can't be the damage because that removes the purpose of Snipe. It can't be the stun because that would involve changing an entire mechanic. It HAS to be the Major Defile.

A nerf to Cloak isn't the way to go either. One, a class shouldn't be nerfed because a weapon skill is poorly balanced (Note* this does not mean over-performing or under-performing, as Snipe is doing both). The initial hit is what hurts the most and determines if you die or not, disregarding desynch. If a 1vx player keeps there defences up and survives a snipe in the middle of an x than they should have reasonable opportunity to recover. Major Defile removes that opportunity.

As for the instagibs, a lot of that has to do with desynch so no proper changes can be done until that's fixed. Though I will say it's unfair that frags had it's stun removed when lethal arrow can have the same effect on combat with the bonus of Major Defile.

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

Metemsycosis

@IAVITNI What would you replace the major defile with, if anything?

IAVITNI

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

IAVITNI

Metemsycosis wrote: »

@IAVITNI What would you replace the major defile with, if anything?

A simple question that leads to a complex answer.

I'll lead by stating that if Major Defile is removed, it MUST be replaced by something.

If I had to propose a change to ZoS, it would be to decrease cast time to 0.75 seconds and change the debuff to Minor Defile. A simple and easy (lazy) fix that leaves everyone with a salty taste in their mouth. Fits ZoS' MO perfectly imo.

I've seen proposals to switch snipe with the bow ultimate. Basically a ranged incap. In this case Snipe would need to be buffed in some respect. Rapid Fire would behave the same but with lower numbers, since it would no longer be an ultimate.

If we're talking a simple switheroo, then honestly I'm at a loss. I've thought about this before and I've theorized that the reason that ZoS tagged Major Defile onto this skill (iirc it was not always part of it) was because there is no other Major/Minor buff/debuff that would really benefit the bow skill line. Further increasing the damage would be overkill. Reducing cast time would require turning the skill into a spammable in order to adequately compensate and as mentioned above, the flight time would result in players needing to chain roll dodge to avoid the rain of snipes.

Now IF I could have the skill to perform in anyway I wanted I would give the Lethal Arrow a soft cooldown. So:

Snipe:
Plant a masterfully aimed arrow into an enemy's vital spot, dealing x Physical Damage and reduces the cost of your next roll dodge by 5%. While slotted, you blend into your surroundings. (think shuffle reskin) Cast time: 1 second

Focused Aim:
Mark the enemy hit, allowing you to hit them from further away and afflicting them with Minor Fracture, reducing their Physical Resistance. Hitting an enemy grants a stack of Focus. At 2 stacks, Focused Aim deals an additional 15% damage. Missing an enemy causes you to lose all stacks of Focus. While slotted, the cost of Sprint and Roll Dodge are reduced by 5% and you cannot be targeted by gap closers if that enemy player has not damaged you within the last 5 seconds. Cast time: 1 second

Lethal Arrows:
After every cast of Snipe this skill changes into Lethal Arrows for 5 seconds. Lethal Arrows has reduced range but fires off 3 arrows that each deal [>33% of the original Snipe tooltip]. The range of the skill is reduced with each cast but the damage is increased. The third and final cast reduces the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 50% and removes all snares but will revert the skill to Snipe.

Now I have reasons for these changes. I think a lot of them are easy to guess. Focused Aim preserves the true Snipe nature of the skill and Lethal Arrow creates a nice engagement tool and gives the bow skill line an actual spammable. There is a precedence set for skills morphing mid-combat in Merciless so it is not a big ask.

Focused Aim will probably become the new go to for "bowtards" trying to snipe in Cyrodil, (as Lethal Arrows would actually require normal levels of competency to use). It would be still very strong against block healers and perform a similar function as Major Defile in 1vx scenarios but it would not overly punish solo players that build and react properly to the initial snipe. This would arguably be a buff for zerg snipers (and sadly desynchers, but they should be banned, not balanced around)

It also allows for non-nb classes to reliably snipe. All classes would require a significant investment of resources to engage snipers. Melee would be unable to gap close and the reductions in Roll Dodge and Sprint would help Snipers outpace ranged pursuers.

Both skills get buffed in PvE and cater to different play styles.

Lastly, Lethal Arrow would give PvE "bowtards" a reason to DPS dance in pugs, so they would be harder to spot. Everyone wins.

Disclaimer* I do not equate Bow players to "bowtards". That was a term used by another in this OP, and to any experienced player there is a distinct difference between the two.

NuarBlack

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

IAVITNI

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

Sharee

IAVITNI wrote: »

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill.

Actually, its lag abuse that carries them.

Find a rock to orbit, and abuse the fact the server is unable to handle a fast-moving player, reporting to enemies he is in LOS when he in fact is not, making all their targeted abilities fail, giving the orbiter 80-90% effective mitigation.

_____X
_____O__Y
_____Z

O = the rock
Z = attackers
Y = where the attackers see their target
X = where the target actually is.

LOS (or line of sight) should be a complete non-factor when the combatants are within touching distance. The only reason why it is not so is server lag, combined with insane movement speed that the game allows(which, by the way, is completely client-side. Just saying.).

NuarBlack

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

Dude you counter yourself. The bow is a common hunting weapon that farmers had. And you are the one trying to gut it cause it is the best weapon to take down better armed combatants. Does that make it attractive to new players? Sure but it also plays an important role in balance and counter tactics at all levels. So get off your high horse with guerilla warfare and history as you are literally asking to nerf the guerrillas, rebels and shinobi cause you redcoats dont think it is fair that they shoot you off your high horse.

Last I strongly imply I stick to BGs then some how you accuse me of running in a zerg? You continue to impress with your cognitive skills. You are literally almost always out numbered in there as it is essentially 4v8. I suggest balance around BGs because they are the closest thing ESO has to a real competitive mode. Cyro is Dark Age nostalgia for RPers. No game in the history of online games has had balanced large scale and never will. That is why ESO is small potatoes when it comes to e-sports and streaming. Every legit e-sport has 5-6 players per team max. Cyro is garbage pvp content period and balance decisions will only end in failure if they are based on it. No CP or CP enabled isn't the point. If BGs had cp I'd still say BGs because it gives a more accurate picture than cyro does as a whole.

Last if you are so good at positioning and keeping buffs up then snipe should be absolutely no problem. It is very easy to LOS. Then cleanse or wait for the major defile to fall off cause they are far away no threat. No,1vXers cry about snipe cause they want everyone to have to come into their AOE ult dump range and play ring around the rosey with the tree or rock or whatever exploiting the games bad net code as it plays with pursuer's targeting.

Also thanks for admitting that all you leet solo 1vXers just pass each other by in peace cause you don't want fair fights against equally skilled and geared opponents so you can go farm potatoes.

IAVITNI

Sharee wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill.

Actually, its lag abuse that carries them.

Find a rock to orbit, and abuse the fact the server is unable to handle a fast-moving player, reporting to enemies he is in LOS when he in fact is not, making all their targeted abilities fail, giving the orbiter 80-90% effective mitigation.

_____X
_____O__Y
_____Z

O = the rock
Z = attackers
Y = where the attackers see their target
X = where the target actually is.

LOS (or line of sight) should be a complete non-factor when the combatants are within touching distance. The only reason why it is not so is server lag, combined with insane movement speed that the game allows(which, by the way, is completely client-side. Just saying.).

LoS is used when pressure becomes to great. A 1vx is possible without it.

Those players that are outnumber their opponents abuse group heals and resurrection mechanics.

I've beat people without a single 5 pc set. I didn't run it intentionally, but wrong gear gets swapped out during a build change. I've x'd like that and won 1v1s. Did my lack of gear carry me in that duel? Did the fact that I fought a single player 1v1 in an open field allow me to LoS?

No, I won those engagements because I outplayed my opponents even with a handicap. Both winning an x and losing an x should be possible.

1vx builds are all over the internet and anyone has access to them. So why can't everyone 1vx? The difference is skilled gameplay.

A new player putting on BiS PvE gear isn't going to beat vMA on the first run. They lack the skill. Skill is the dominant factor. Gear only becomes a greater factor as the skill gap decreases.

IAVITNI

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

Dude you counter yourself. The bow is a common hunting weapon that farmers had. And you are the one trying to gut it cause it is the best weapon to take down better armed combatants. Does that make it attractive to new players? Sure but it also plays an important role in balance and counter tactics at all levels. So get off your high horse with guerilla warfare and history as you are literally asking to nerf the guerrillas, rebels and shinobi cause you redcoats dont think it is fair that they shoot you off your high horse.

Last I strongly imply I stick to BGs then some how you accuse me of running in a zerg? You continue to impress with your cognitive skills. You are literally almost always out numbered in there as it is essentially 4v8. I suggest balance around BGs because they are the closest thing ESO has to a real competitive mode. Cyro is Dark Age nostalgia for RPers. No game in the history of online games has had balanced large scale and never will. That is why ESO is small potatoes when it comes to e-sports and streaming. Every legit e-sport has 5-6 players per team max. Cyro is garbage pvp content period and balance decisions will only end in failure if they are based on it. No CP or CP enabled isn't the point. If BGs had cp I'd still say BGs because it gives a more accurate picture than cyro does as a whole.

Last if you are so good at positioning and keeping buffs up then snipe should be absolutely no problem. It is very easy to LOS. Then cleanse or wait for the major defile to fall off cause they are far away no threat. No,1vXers cry about snipe cause they want everyone to have to come into their AOE ult dump range and play ring around the rosey with the tree or rock or whatever exploiting the games bad net code as it plays with pursuer's targeting.

Also thanks for admitting that all you leet solo 1vXers just pass each other by in peace cause you don't want fair fights against equally skilled and geared opponents so you can go farm potatoes.

I'm not asking to gut Snipe. Removing Major Defile and replacing it with something else would retain or even increase the overall effectiveness of Snipe but not make it ridiculous to recover from. I'm a mag sorc main. What AoEs am I dumping? Give frags Major Defile then. Is that ok with you? BGs needs more sources of Major Defile anyways.

In fact, in an ideal situation, I would agree that BGs should be the focal of PvP balance. But BGs are non-cp. So now Cyro, the PvP that helped sell on initial launch should be abandoned? No. Both aspects need to be considered at this time until CP is removed completely, or reworked so that it requires actual choice, not just a flat choice. Each tree having an individual pool of points negates the diversity and decision-making of CP entirely.

If you run BGs competitively, then you should have a group. Proper group play will outperform the Major Defile from Snipe. There are other sources of Major Defile that aren't attached to hard hitting skills that can stun. Notice how there's less complaints about those?

Snipe is overtuned against solo players and undertuned in every other area. No other non-ultimate ability has the same impact as snipe with the exception of BoL.

1vx only being possible against potatoes is a well known fact. Nobody disputes that. It simply adds diversity and unique challenge outside fighting the same people in a 1v1 in Stormhaven or Grahtwood. Every 1vx'er can duel. A proper 1vx is nothing more than several created isolation of 1v1s. Those clips of people bursting 3 people at once are actually the least impressive to most solo players outside of showcasing a build.

On top of that, a 1vx rarely occurs against a group of solo builds. Most 1vx are against group play builds, builds that rely on the presence of their teammates to cover sacrifices made to min-max. This makes isolating those builds that much more impactful. Those builds tend to lack a major aspect in either healing, damage, sustain or mitigation. The skill in a 1vx is finding and creating offensive openings and retaining the discipline to maintain defenses and not get greedy by over extending. It's a game of patience that solo players find much more exhilarating than group play for various reasons. A single mistake by the solo player can result in a death. BGs is fun, and I would prefer that over cyro if not for the fact that every player is running the latest aids meta build. The kill in a 1vx is not impressive, it's the process. The climax isn't the execute, but rather the turn. Saying solo takes no skill is like saying co-ordinated group play takes no skill. A co-ordinated group of 12 will wipe a zerg of 24. A 4 man with a healer/utility provider will sweep a 4 man with 4 pure dps. By your logic, every BG should be a stalemate since its a 4v4v4, where every team has the same numbers. Groups win because of the gap in skill. Numbers have much less impact.

Killing adds in vMA isn't impressive. It's the depth of the players situational awareness and the ability to cope with constantly changing situations that makes vMA fun. If you run vMA a million times like I have it gets stale. Spawn points are memorized and rotations become fixed. 1vx is simply a dynamic version of vMA and it is the same players that get x'd because they are literally chosen by the solo player.

If I can burst a player in a single offensive rotation without feeling any pressure then I can do the same to at least 3 players of the same skill simultaneously without LoS.

Shinshadow

Legend has it, that if you say "Sniper no sniping" three times fast, the shooter will say "Aww man!" and cease fire.

NyassaV

Sharee wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

It stuns because it’s used with CC poisons or it’s from stealth or it can snare and stun. Both stamblades and snipe are OP right now and the CC from magnum shot is the new rune prison.

Rune prison was unblockable undodgeable, and unreflectable. Magnum shot is neither.

It's borderline unbreakable

Maryal

Sharee wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

If I’m not mistaken. Zos has made it crystal clear they no longer want hard hitting abilities stunning. So how come stealth/snipe stuns? And it’s never been addressed.

Because it is the stealth attack that carries the stun, not the ability. If you want to prevent the stun, slot radiant magelight.

Agreed.

You know, if this issue came up 2 years ago, well, on second thought, I don't think this would have been much of an issue 2 years ago because back then we had a lot more experienced players who knew about game mechanics ... like how using *radiant magelight prevented the stun from stealth attacks for not only the user, but their nearby allies as well.

*while there is a distance limitation to reveal players in stealth, there is no 'distance limitation' (between you and the attacker) regarding the stun prevention when being attacked from stealth (note: if you use it properly and are still stunned, then you need to report it as a bug).

LTP issues occur far too often when players rely on their 'build' as a substitute for in-game experience (I'm talking about the kind of experience that leads to game mastery).

NBrookus

There are over 300 skills in this game. You have 10+2 skill slots. Using one of them for a single ability which is pretty much useless otherwise to prevent a portion of another single skill is by any measure a very bad counter.

When you could use Magelight to empower one of your own abilities and the detect range wasn't pathetically small, it was more justifiable.

Mintaka5

Hochstapler wrote: »

I'm not defending anything.
If you don't have room for Magelight on your bar you are doing it wrong.
As everyone that read this thread knew all along, it's a clear L2P issue, in your case.
Don't be the laughing stock of your own thread dude. lol

You're the one being laughed at. Magelight doesn't work that well, and is in no way an effective counterplay to snipe.

NuarBlack

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

Dude you counter yourself. The bow is a common hunting weapon that farmers had. And you are the one trying to gut it cause it is the best weapon to take down better armed combatants. Does that make it attractive to new players? Sure but it also plays an important role in balance and counter tactics at all levels. So get off your high horse with guerilla warfare and history as you are literally asking to nerf the guerrillas, rebels and shinobi cause you redcoats dont think it is fair that they shoot you off your high horse.

Last I strongly imply I stick to BGs then some how you accuse me of running in a zerg? You continue to impress with your cognitive skills. You are literally almost always out numbered in there as it is essentially 4v8. I suggest balance around BGs because they are the closest thing ESO has to a real competitive mode. Cyro is Dark Age nostalgia for RPers. No game in the history of online games has had balanced large scale and never will. That is why ESO is small potatoes when it comes to e-sports and streaming. Every legit e-sport has 5-6 players per team max. Cyro is garbage pvp content period and balance decisions will only end in failure if they are based on it. No CP or CP enabled isn't the point. If BGs had cp I'd still say BGs because it gives a more accurate picture than cyro does as a whole.

Last if you are so good at positioning and keeping buffs up then snipe should be absolutely no problem. It is very easy to LOS. Then cleanse or wait for the major defile to fall off cause they are far away no threat. No,1vXers cry about snipe cause they want everyone to have to come into their AOE ult dump range and play ring around the rosey with the tree or rock or whatever exploiting the games bad net code as it plays with pursuer's targeting.

Also thanks for admitting that all you leet solo 1vXers just pass each other by in peace cause you don't want fair fights against equally skilled and geared opponents so you can go farm potatoes.

I'm not asking to gut Snipe. Removing Major Defile and replacing it with something else would retain or even increase the overall effectiveness of Snipe but not make it ridiculous to recover from. I'm a mag sorc main. What AoEs am I dumping? Give frags Major Defile then. Is that ok with you? BGs needs more sources of Major Defile anyways.

In fact, in an ideal situation, I would agree that BGs should be the focal of PvP balance. But BGs are non-cp. So now Cyro, the PvP that helped sell on initial launch should be abandoned? No. Both aspects need to be considered at this time until CP is removed completely, or reworked so that it requires actual choice, not just a flat choice. Each tree having an individual pool of points negates the diversity and decision-making of CP entirely.

If you run BGs competitively, then you should have a group. Proper group play will outperform the Major Defile from Snipe. There are other sources of Major Defile that aren't attached to hard hitting skills that can stun. Notice how there's less complaints about those?

Snipe is overtuned against solo players and undertuned in every other area. No other non-ultimate ability has the same impact as snipe with the exception of BoL.

1vx only being possible against potatoes is a well known fact. Nobody disputes that. It simply adds diversity and unique challenge outside fighting the same people in a 1v1 in Stormhaven or Grahtwood. Every 1vx'er can duel. A proper 1vx is nothing more than several created isolation of 1v1s. Those clips of people bursting 3 people at once are actually the least impressive to most solo players outside of showcasing a build.

On top of that, a 1vx rarely occurs against a group of solo builds. Most 1vx are against group play builds, builds that rely on the presence of their teammates to cover sacrifices made to min-max. This makes isolating those builds that much more impactful. Those builds tend to lack a major aspect in either healing, damage, sustain or mitigation. The skill in a 1vx is finding and creating offensive openings and retaining the discipline to maintain defenses and not get greedy by over extending. It's a game of patience that solo players find much more exhilarating than group play for various reasons. A single mistake by the solo player can result in a death. BGs is fun, and I would prefer that over cyro if not for the fact that every player is running the latest aids meta build. The kill in a 1vx is not impressive, it's the process. The climax isn't the execute, but rather the turn. Saying solo takes no skill is like saying co-ordinated group play takes no skill. A co-ordinated group of 12 will wipe a zerg of 24. A 4 man with a healer/utility provider will sweep a 4 man with 4 pure dps. By your logic, every BG should be a stalemate since its a 4v4v4, where every team has the same numbers. Groups win because of the gap in skill. Numbers have much less impact.

Killing adds in vMA isn't impressive. It's the depth of the players situational awareness and the ability to cope with constantly changing situations that makes vMA fun. If you run vMA a million times like I have it gets stale. Spawn points are memorized and rotations become fixed. 1vx is simply a dynamic version of vMA and it is the same players that get x'd because they are literally chosen by the solo player.

If I can burst a player in a single offensive rotation without feeling any pressure then I can do the same to at least 3 players of the same skill simultaneously without LoS.

I'm not saying skill doesn't exist. Or that all 1vXers don't have it, I know many do. But they also rely on gear and build to do it. Shrugging off attacks cause of their build and skills they are running. (For instance 1vXing wasn't really a thing before gear mattered in cyro. Most pvpers ran naked with a weapon infact back then. 1vXing wasn't a thing till the broken Vet and CP system and gear affected you in cyro). So why shouldn't there be equally powerful offensive abilities? As long as vigor+heavy+troll king and shield stacking+Bloodspawn+surge/blood magic or any of the other combos that provide extreme tankiness and healing exist while maintaining burst potential then snipe can have a major defile. And sure crystal frags or any skill can have a major defile too, magsorc is something I play often too, more than bow for sure. And yes snipers are a weakness of magsorc. Well NB in general now cause of the way shields work but that is fine to have a weakness. They are really strong against everything else if you are running the right setup and I don't know about you but my magsorc does tons of cleave damage via curse, streak, mines, and WoE if im back baring an Ice staff for control. As that's how I handle being out numbered is use cleave to apply pressure as it quickly identifies the soft target to aim my real burst at.

You talk about 1vXing being best against group play builds, well snipe builds in most cases are these soft target group play builds that do sacrifice so what is the problem? Thats how I deal with them in BGs. If I see one in play I streak through the tanky DKs and Stamdens and hunt that guy down cause I know he poses a threat if unchecked. The same in many other games, WoW for instance you dont let a destro lock or ele shaman turret cast unharrased on you and your team. Now this doesn't work as well in cyro but that is cause cyro is garbage content. You can romanticize those rare times in history that a few men faced down large armies all you want but they are the exception not the norm. That is why they seem cool. 99 out of a hundred the better equipped and manned army won. The 300 died in the end, Spartacus died in the end, and the American revolution was still won because of conventional means and support from France. The guerrilla warefare bit, while effective, has been greatly exaggerated in American lore to feed patriotism. So at the end of the day large scale only works in RTS games and there is tons of history of why it doesn't work in other games, especially high fantasy MMOs. WoW and Rift demonstrated that thoroughly. ESO only got it cause a developer from Dark Age of Camelot was on the team and nostalgia pushed the garbage that is cyro through. It has never been critically acclaimed and caused many long time mmo pvpers to not even touch the game. It about did to me and has made me walk away for long periods too even though I've followed the game since conception being a long time elder scrolls and Bethesda fan. So it is hardly a selling point. In fact it is a push players away point. They have condensed campaigns multiple times now cause no one wants a part of it. Yet I can get a BG que to pop at 4 in the morning. They need to just announce the war is over and walk away from the failed experiment. The 3 banners war isn't even canon so no worries there. Then come up with a decent cp enabled mode.

I really have no problems with those who want to 1vX. My problem is with the forum hero 1vXers that want to hold the game back from making real progress trying to preserve their broken little part of the game.

NuarBlack

The simple fact remains is that 1vXers want snipe nerfed just cause it counters them and no other reason. They can not demonstrate the skill to be over powered in any other content aside from health desync.

Also the excuse that it is a ranged ability so that is why it shouldn't have X doesn't hold water in a game with spamable gap closers and if ranged skills posed no threat they offer no tactical threat or use if they are easy to shrug off. That is literally the point, that sniper or caster over there is a major threat or at least as big a potential threat as the heavy brawler bearing down on you. Now you have to make the tactical decision of which to deal with instead of what 1vXers want of the only choice is to ult combo those that come close cause those at range pose no significant threat.

PhoenixGrey

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Hochstapler wrote: »

I'm not defending anything.
If you don't have room for Magelight on your bar you are doing it wrong.
As everyone that read this thread knew all along, it's a clear L2P issue, in your case.
Don't be the laughing stock of your own thread dude. lol

You're the one being laughed at. Magelight doesn't work that well, and is in no way an effective counterplay to snipe.

There is no counterplay for snipe because there is no counterplay for health desync

IAVITNI

NuarBlack wrote: »

I'm not saying skill doesn't exist. Or that all 1vXers don't have it, I know many do. But they also rely on gear and build to do it. Shrugging off attacks cause of their build and skills they are running. (For instance 1vXing wasn't really a thing before gear mattered in cyro. Most pvpers ran naked with a weapon infact back then. 1vXing wasn't a thing till the broken Vet and CP system and gear affected you in cyro). So why shouldn't there be equally powerful offensive abilities? As long as vigor+heavy+troll king and shield stacking+Bloodspawn+surge/blood magic or any of the other combos that provide extreme tankiness and healing exist while maintaining burst potential then snipe can have a major defile. And sure crystal frags or any skill can have a major defile too, magsorc is something I play often too, more than bow for sure. And yes snipers are a weakness of magsorc. Well NB in general now cause of the way shields work but that is fine to have a weakness. They are really strong against everything else if you are running the right setup and I don't know about you but my magsorc does tons of cleave damage via curse, streak, mines, and WoE if im back baring an Ice staff for control. As that's how I handle being out numbered is use cleave to apply pressure as it quickly identifies the soft target to aim my real burst at.

You talk about 1vXing being best against group play builds, well snipe builds in most cases are these soft target group play builds that do sacrifice so what is the problem? Thats how I deal with them in BGs. If I see one in play I streak through the tanky DKs and Stamdens and hunt that guy down cause I know he poses a threat if unchecked. The same in many other games, WoW for instance you dont let a destro lock or ele shaman turret cast unharrased on you and your team. Now this doesn't work as well in cyro but that is cause cyro is garbage content. You can romanticize those rare times in history that a few men faced down large armies all you want but they are the exception not the norm. That is why they seem cool. 99 out of a hundred the better equipped and manned army won. The 300 died in the end, Spartacus died in the end, and the American revolution was still won because of conventional means and support from France. The guerrilla warefare bit, while effective, has been greatly exaggerated in American lore to feed patriotism. So at the end of the day large scale only works in RTS games and there is tons of history of why it doesn't work in other games, especially high fantasy MMOs. WoW and Rift demonstrated that thoroughly. ESO only got it cause a developer from Dark Age of Camelot was on the team and nostalgia pushed the garbage that is cyro through. It has never been critically acclaimed and caused many long time mmo pvpers to not even touch the game. It about did to me and has made me walk away for long periods too even though I've followed the game since conception being a long time elder scrolls and Bethesda fan. So it is hardly a selling point. In fact it is a push players away point. They have condensed campaigns multiple times now cause no one wants a part of it. Yet I can get a BG que to pop at 4 in the morning. They need to just announce the war is over and walk away from the failed experiment. The 3 banners war isn't even canon so no worries there. Then come up with a decent cp enabled mode.

I really have no problems with those who want to 1vX. My problem is with the forum hero 1vXers that want to hold the game back from making real progress trying to preserve their broken little part of the game.

No but you are belittling the importance of skill. Put a 1vx'er and a player that get's x'd in the same gear. You make it sound like they will perform at the same levels. And I'm not talking about the game years ago. I'm talking about the game now,

I don't think you understand how 1vx works. The occurrence of an actual 1vx is the same as the romanticized odds of the few winning against the many. I don't think you understand that for every 1vx clip out there, horse simulator was played for 10-20 times that. Majority of 1vx's are actually a 1v3 and those are posted for the sake of posting, not because they are actually impressive. Those players are out there for hours every day and they upload a good clip maybe once a month. And that's not even the point of all this.

From a strictly balance perspective, Snipe performs poorly in PvE and in all instances of PvP that are not a "sniper" build. In all instances besides sniping an outnumbered player or a straight gank, the sniper would be more effective performing any other task. Now ofc these are arbitrary numbers, but Snipe is useless 80% of engagements and useful in 10% and overbearing in 10%. That's not balanced. Neither is the fact that Snipe can completely reverse the flow of combat with a single cast. And engagements does not equate to time played.

Your vendetta does seem to be against 1vx'ers. "carried by sets" "entitled" etc.. Players should not be given access to high burst and Major Defile on a single skill, on top of it being ranged and almost always resulting in a stun. If Snipe was actually balanced, there would be more than just nightblades running the skill. But it isn't so there aren't.

And at least I know you are just saying anything to win an argument. Who in their right mind would give Sorcs Major Defile on Frags.

I know how to deal with snipers. This isn't about snipers. It is about snipe, specifically, Lethal Arrow. I actually rarely struggle with snipers on a magsorc, I don't care about Major Defile on a mag sorc because shields. But I do play every class. And I do know that getting hit by a Lethal Arrow that stuns, can hit between 6k-8k depending on build/situation AND apply Major Defile is huge. Name 1 other skill that deals high tooltip damage, stuns and applies a Major Debuff. Name one.

And again, considering Snipe is combined with Cloak 90% of the time, it does stun. Rune Cage pre-nerf only dealt 7k tooltip damage and can only be used every 8 seconds. It was nerfed because of the synergy it had with other skills. Same rules apply to Lethal Arrow.

Metemsycosis

Cloak only applies a critical hit, not a stun. Stun has to be from crouched-stealth. The stun isn't unique to snipe

killimandrosb16_ESO

Either you handle snipe in a 1vx situation, or in any situation, or you have to reconsider your 1vx tactics. I die to snipe, not very often, but it happens, usually while engaged in a fight with someone else. Just like I die to a well placed incap, or a well placed meteor. Its about accepting challenges occuring in a pvp situation. What makes people furious about it, is how easy the snipe tactic can seem at first. But, at the same time I know these players are usually the easiest to burst down fast if you catch them. Risk vs reward. It has nothing with fair play to do, they will probably be more annoyed by you then you by them. Because theres no way they can down you in a 1v1 situation. No way. So basically what is being preached here is nerfing the weakest player on the pvp field, because you feel disgusted by being downed by a bad player. To me, thats more a respect issue, just like passing other factions players to farm potatoes is. If you rage about being downed by a snope, but not any other abilities, thats your problem, not te snipers.
Lets take a look at whats actually WRONG with snipe; Lag making it possible to land 2-3 snipes at the same time. Now that IS an actual issue, which should be solved y zenimax, not the players. Id personally be equally frustrated if someone landed 3 dizzying swings on me, but I dont hate on the skill or the player, just the lag/bug.

Curtdogg47

The life of the archer!

People you kill don’t like you!

People on your side that you help don’t like you!

The same people on your side when you don’t jump in and help don’t like you!

Thogard

geonsocal wrote: »

Snipe = sometimes bad things happen to good people...

it's not really snipe so much as snipe plus lag that's super frustrating to deal with...

although after watching thogard's vid (one of my favorite eso vids ever), he kind of proves a very good point...

I love this vid...well done, really well done
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPZpSw68Yz8

[/quote]

@geonsocal sup dude! Just noticed this comment, thanks man. I look forward to hanging out again at the next eso LA meetup!

biminirwb17_ESO

My pvp sniper is fun to play.

I love hiding in resource towers near eval time killing the solo resource taker who thought s/he would use the npc's.

I love hitting healers who think they can out heal major defile, spamming lethal arrow while they spam BoL. They lose.

I love killing siegers who don't know how to drop siege. Then killing the nice guy who tries to rez them.

But best of all I love solo defending a keep against 8 baddies and killing them with oils and snipe, its glorious.

(By the way I do play one handed, my left arm doesn't function, so keep your insults to yourself )

Zeromaz

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Tested this recently and my snipe at least was not stunning from cloak, only from regular stealth.

Second, ranged major defile needs to exist. Your scoring system doesn't account for the fact that range doesn't mean squat in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Quit trying to ask for balance around cyro. It is hot garbarge and 1vXing shouldn't even be a thing cause cyro shouldn't be a thing. Plus you really should just get run over if you are severely out numbered. Snipe is the counter play to the other cancers in the game that all the 1vXers crutch on as healing is broken powerful.

Now of course the desync issue definitely needs fixed. Also you could brighten up the graphic of the snipe projectile to make it more visible. Last snipe actually needs a shallower arc and lower flight time. The long flight time and huge are I know are what ZoS thinks provides counter play but really it is what allows 3 snipes to be fired off before the first one hits. Plus it would give strafe/skirmisher bow builds better utility especially if the self snare was removed for at least one of the morphs.

I mean, just stealth while in Cloak. Not hard to do.

I have nothing against ranged Major Defile. It's the fact that it is attached to a high hitting skill.

And no, being out numbered does not mean you should get run over. The history of warfare IRL dictates otherwise. I mean, If a lion is attacked by a x number tuna with breathing apparatuses, up to a certain value of x, the lion will be able to win. OFC when the tuna go back, brainstorm and return with a full school of tuna also equipped with breathing apparatuses the lion will be over-run.

Major Defile is the counter to healing. Not snipe. By that logic, Major Defile on every ultimate would be acceptable because a counter to cancer builds needs to exist. And most 1vx builds run pure stats btw. Players are getting x'd by mechanics, not cancer for the most part. (I acknowledge there are cancer mechanics as well, but few streamers/youtubers post those)

I actually disagree with the visibility point. You should have to pay attention to know a snipe is coming.

100% but also 100% disagree with the flight time. It would be OP with Major Defile, so now you're just asking for too much. However, as I've proposed before, reducing the delays in the skill would help to counter-balance the removal of Major Defile. It would ofc require additional buffs/QoL changes, but it's a much more balanced start.

The point was is you are not spamming snipe stuns then. Cloaking then entering actual stealth takes time and los most the time. You are not snipe>cloak>snipe stunning people. So to say the skill has easy access to CC, major defile, and high damage is misleading at best, outright lie in most cases. A heavy attack or light attack from a bow will stun from actual stealth. Silver shards stuns from stealth. It is a stealth mechanic not a snipe mechanic.

We are not talking history and if we were we would literally be talking pay to win cause that is how history was. Landed knights who could afford mount, armor, and quality weapons vs peasants with farm tools. Good to know that is where you stand. You want carried because of your setup and be able to cream peasants cause you're entitled. There isn't one youtuber/streamer/1vXer that isnt taking advantage of something like troll king, dbos, spin2win, etc. Or whatever has been meta in the past. None are running non meta at least. I don't blame them or judge them either. I just don't think the game needs dumbed down to accommodate them. Cause again this is a game not history. A game that should be competitive and intuitively balanced. And all the 1vXer hot shots are standing in the way of that protecting the garbage that is cyro rather than getting better pvp modes that actually offer fun, balanced, competitive play. No they want to "wreck" peasants and potatoes in cyro so they can feel like leet 1vXers.

So sorry balance decisions should be made first at least with consideration to BGs as they are the closest thing we have to balanced competitive play. And right now snipe is underperforming with exception of health desync or having multiple snipes incoming before you can tell what is happening. And the major defile is still needed in there badly. A good templar or magden can make people unkillable even with major defile. Most good players cleanse it anyway. You generally are not dying due to the major defile but because of the desync and multiple snipes landing. Infact some of the more successful snipe users I've ran into lately are using the other morph. It is a needed skill that forces teams out of their templar house. Cause without it I see teams just turtle up inside the templar house and ult dump on anyone who comes in. A sniper forces those teams to have to adapt and take risks by extending their lines just like those that would invade the templar house if they want what ever objective it is setup on.

Balance should be based around no CP BGs? You realize most of the new content is balanced around CP. Do you really think the average player could clear vet dungeons without CP? I'm all for removing CP, but stating balance should be done around no CP BGs when no content is built without adjusting for CP is ignorant. Balance should be based on every aspect of the game.

I run carry sets? Please tell me what sets I run. I'm a magsorc main btw but I've x'd on every class except magblade. I also prefer to play the weakest class each patch, which I haven't decided this patch since some are equally bad. I rely on positioning and basic mechanics, mechanics available in any build to kill my opponents. And I don't expect to x on players of equal/greater skill. Most clips aren't like that. Why do you think solo players tend to run past each other?

If I were to adopt your attitude I would assume you have no idea how to survive in a 1v1 and you don't believe that you and your 3 buddys should get clapped by that 1 guy running around a tree, maintaining buffs, properly positioning and turning to burst when you and your buddys neglect to manage your buffs and resources.

You assume it's gear that carries players. Incorrect. It's skill. Gear carries average players. Skilled players use their gear to its max potential. I know 1 player that won a duel vs someone who gets frequently x'd on with nothing more than their weapons and a monster set.

It's understanding mechanics and how to use your surroundings and strategize. That's warfare 101. 1 Queen can beat 5 Pawns if maneuvered correctly. The reverse is also true. Are you going to tell me that one of the oldest strategy games in history is unbalanced? Please tell me chess is broken. Go ahead.

Your "re-telling" of history is skewed and biased. Ever heard of guerrilla warfare? Oh, idk, the American revolution where militia were the bulk of the fighting force against British regulars? How about in Japan where shinobi, whose tools were literally repurposed farming tools were able to harass the ruling shogunate with methods that have literally become mythical in modern society. There's a legend of the old man on the mountain who stopped Saladin and his massive army from razing the hassashins fortress by doing nothing more than placing a plate of cookies and a dagger in Saladin's tent. I'll even refer to Thermopylae. No, not 300 the movie, but the fact that a relatively small number of hoplites and what is assumed to be around 10,000 slave soldiers were able to halt an army numbering in millions by picking the right spot to hold their ground. Had they chosen Marathon with those numbers, they would have been swarmed on the plains.

You know how all the above were possible? Strategy and meta games. Knowing your opponent and knowing how to react. The average player is carried by their sets. A skilled player will x because they react properly and don't over extend, something that the people they x will not do. Any revolution, rebellion, uprising won by the smaller party is a testament to that. They were all won, not by pay-2-win but by persistence and waiting for their advantaged opponents to make a mistake. To show 1 sliver of an opening that could be punished. That's what all the best 1vx's are.

PvP is not about sheer numbers. I used to duel a magsorc who could buff to 8k spell damage and 50k mag. I used to beat him on a build with 2.2k spell damage and 37k mag. And this was before shield nerfs. The difference was skill and understanding mechanics. I pulled off a 2v7 on a magsorc with 1.5k buffed spell damage. Because I played smart.

You are asking for a skill that is overloaded and then incorrectly reprimanding me by stating I expect to win a 1vx because I am entitled? Maybe you should consider what you're asking. You want a single skill to allow you to deal with healbots. I want a skill to not stun, burst AND apply Major Defile. I want it to do 1 less. You want it to do everything.

Instead of spamming snipe, grab your buddies and co-ordinate negates and ultimate dumps with proxies. 1 healer can literally carry a BG group. 1 Negate can also destroy them.

If I face 3 players who don't use a single heal and do nothing but lightning destro heavy attack me when I maintain all buffs and heals and perfectly combo my burst and LoS when pressure gets to high, yes I should win. Infact I should steam roll those 3 players. In essence that is what a 1vx is. Not every solo player is on an ego high. I don't like zerging but I don't like aids infested BGs. I prefer open world because people tend to run more balanced builds there. I like to try to 1vx to push my skills.

If you were to compare the average 1vx, its nothing more than vMA, but with players instead of NPCs. That's the difference in skill gap. That skill gap IS the validation for the existence of 1vx. Take 3 of your buddies and try to jump 1 armed and trained individual with no hands. That's literally what most 1vxs feel/look like. Yes, the skill gap is that wide.

Good to know that you believe where you stand is the only position to stand. I'm done validating somebody who believes that strategy has different effects in video games and real life. Somebody who says that all wars in the past were nothing but pay to win. Because what you have effectively said is that every life sacrificed in the history of combat could have been avoided if the suits had hoofed out more money for better gear. Wars aren't won with paychecks. Money only has value because society gives it value. If society breaks down, its the blood of the people that win wars, not bank withdrawals.

Hell, I'll just say it. I play with a lot of people in the army and your statement pisses me off. The government can spend all the money in the world on soldiers, but if the individual isn't willing to invest blood, sweat and tears to practice and hone their skills and lay their life on the line when the time comes then every last penny is moot. Heart and discipline wins wars, not numbered cotton.

Wow....

UltimateBias

Sharee wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

If I’m not mistaken. Zos has made it crystal clear they no longer want hard hitting abilities stunning. So how come stealth/snipe stuns? And it’s never been addressed.

Because it is the stealth attack that carries the stun, not the ability. If you want to prevent the stun, slot radiant magelight.

100% agree.

Lord_Etrigan

Hi Everyone,

My name is Nyssa al Ghul and "I am a Snipe spammer".

I became a Snipe Spammer after the death of my beloved Magica duelwield PvP Sorc "Lady Death" at the hands Eric Wrobel with the Murkmire patch.

It's been a bitter pill to swallow and the road to recovery is very hard especialy when I see other Magic Sorc clinging to the hope that the PVP Magic Sorc will oneday be great again

Ultimate_Overlord

Hello everyone,

My name is Ultimate Over*ag and I am bad at the game.

I have been bad at the game ever since i started playing, but never really recognised it.

I used to play Magicka Sorc, but then it stopped being strong enough to carry my sorry *ss so I switched to Spamming Snipe in the back of the zerg. If you think Magic Sorc is still a reasonable class - you are wrong. If a class is not good enough to carry bads the same way Snipe does, it is dead for me

Sharee

"If it hurts me and mommy won't make it go away, i will at least try to guilt the other guy into not using it"