Nerf S&B (sword & shield)

kaithuzar

Nerf the amount damage mitigation obtained through blocking with a sword & shield.

Yea I said it.
Somebody had to say it.
It had to be said.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe blocking with a sword & shield provides more damage mitigation than anything else in game. (If it’s not the most, then it might be 2nd to major protection, but it’s much easier to build for blocking & much more prevalent in Cyrodiil)

Heavy armor isn’t the problem, permanent blocking isn’t even the problem, it’s that the amount of damage mitigation is too damn high.

If I can pump 4.5k fully buffed spell damage w/16k spell penetration & it still takes 3 others to kill you in game; that’s just ridiculous.

Especially if you can turn around, ult dump & have enough damage to kill.

Either tank or deal damage, the ability to rely on ult & pumping out small 1-2k damaging attacks while mitigating 5-10k+ incoming attacks & coming out ahead just seems absurd.

Toc de Malsvi

Its been said before, this might be the first thread on it. However there have been several posts attempting to draw attention to it.

Royaji

I'm gonna grab some popcorn. This is gonna be good.

Notarikon777

Hm ? What did you just said ? Oh, another pvp called -for-nerf !
Good point ! Shield don't mitigate damage, weapons don't do damage, and we'll love each other and live in peace.
We're finished, shut down the servers please !
Grab popcorn too...

Sparr0w

You know just blocking in general reduces damage, doesn't need to be with S&B?

eso_nya

kaithuzar wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe blocking with a sword & shield provides more damage mitigation than anything else in game.

u r wrong.

blocking with s&b is the 2nd to worst source of mitigation in the game. only blocking w/o s&b is worse.

blocking reduces incoming dmg by 50% at a cost of stamina. e.g. "blocking" 10k dmg "costs" u ~2k stamina and 5k hp. u can heavily invest in blockcostreducers (7x armortrait, 3x jewelry enchantment, 5pc boni) to reduce the stamina cost. ontop of that, your stamina regen stops while u r blocking.

armorrating at cap (~33k; u can get there w/ 7x light armor and u can push up around 65k armorrating) also reduces incoming dmg by 50%, but without a staminacost. 10k dmg "cost" u 5k hp.

red cp reduce dmg w/o any real tradeoff. sets/skills/potions offer maim/protection to reduce dmg before block and armor apply.

read up paulsimmons posts about mitigation for further details on how all the mitigations stack with each other and a nice math example on how to get your mitigation high enough that blocking makes only the difference between 96% and 98% mitigation.

best thing for mitigation: dodge and dmgshields. no dmg taken to hp at minor magicka or stamina cost.

geonsocal

I wish SnB had a skill similiar to repentanace...

yeah, I said it...

katorga

If I can pump 4.5k fully buffed spell damage w/16k spell penetration & it still takes 3 others to kill you in game; that’s just ridiculous.

So what you are really saying is you want to force everyone to play exactly like you. Personally I like the diversity and the the fact that I can run into someone who just hard counters my build. It encourages cooperative, tactical play.

Sparr0w

katorga wrote: »

If I can pump 4.5k fully buffed spell damage w/16k spell penetration & it still takes 3 others to kill you in game; that’s just ridiculous.

So what you are really saying is you want to force everyone to play exactly like you. Personally I like the diversity and the the fact that I can run into someone who just hard counters my build. It encourages cooperative, tactical play.

Like if you're a magblade and encounter a DK with wings. Yup best get running.

kaithuzar

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

umagon

If ultimate dumps are the problem then how does changing block help? Ultimate scaling off of resource pools are part of the problem. As a tank I can tell you it is easy to get around 36K health 35k stam with 3k weapon damage. And still have 4.8k crit res and about 25k phy/spell res. One hand and shield does not factor into those stats much. Ultimates should have never been in the game, they are just psychological power up mechanisms to keep the dopamine loop going.

Merlin13KAGL

20% additional block mitigation isn't what's keeping you and three other people from taking someone down.

kaithuzar

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

20% additional block mitigation isn't what's keeping you and three other people from taking someone down.

You’re right, it’s the combination of all sources of damage mitigation. I’m specifically calling out blocking with sword & shield because I feel it’s too strong especially when combined with other types of mitigation.

paulsimonps

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Minno

kaithuzar wrote: »

For those that think I’m wrong I’ll direct you here: (take a look at the graph)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

What that spreadsheet doesn't tell you is what impact dots have on blocking. Basically it can't because dots deal full damage on blocks lol.

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

kaithuzar

I’ll admit this is somewhat mis-labeled/misleading as my actual complaint is damage mitigation through blocking but you have to admit that a title with “nerf s&b” turns more heads if only to attract more people including trolls.

I know & agree frost staff is basically the same.

kaithuzar

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

You’re pretty on point. I do prioritize direct damage attacks but I also use sap.

But looking at the state of magblade what else is there? Cripple is the only “useful” dot we have; IMO it’s not even worth using & splitting up CP points to make it useful.

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

Minno

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

You’re pretty on point. I do prioritize direct damage attacks but I also use sap.

But looking at the state of magblade what else is there? Cripple is the only “useful” dot we have; IMO it’s not even worth using & splitting up CP points to make it useful.

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

stats don't replace knowledge of the counters. If you start throwing out a bunch of direct dmg, all it takes is a dodge roll and one block for your target's healing to overcome the damage.

I havent played nightblade that much, but aside from the 8% max mag, wouldnt wall of elements give you better benefit?
10% penetration, AOE unpurged, procs enchants/poisons on cooldown, ice variant snares while chilled enemeies are immobilzed.

Diversify your attacks. You need a cc, a range ability, a GCD ignoring DOT and an AOE along with a variety of defensive options as well (block, dodge, LOS, etc). And you need the sustain to extend fights in your favor to look for mistakes to exploit.

idk

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

CyrusArya

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

No. It shouldn't. And your mentality with this logic demonstrates exactly whats wrong with 99% of people who whine for nerfs. The critical component that your calculus leaves out is the most important one of all: player skill. All the stats in the world shouldnt allow you to "overtake/overpower" players that are better than you. The good magblades who play proper builds dont struggle to take out any opponent barring a DK using wings.

ccmedaddy

CyrusArya wrote: »

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

Not surprised. This thread has 'Nightblade crybaby' written all over it. These people won't stop until every single defense mechanism besides cloaked is nerfed to uselesness lol.

Beffagorn

kaithuzar wrote: »

CP points

Well, there's your problem.

Your opinion is based on a CP scenario. Nothing is balanced in there and people should stop trying to balance the game around CPs because it simply is impossible.

Blocking is 100% fine in no CP pvp, no issue whatsoever (If anything it became very slightly too weak in recent times, compared to dodge rolling)

Royaji

CyrusArya wrote: »

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

No. It shouldn't. And your mentality with this logic demonstrates exactly whats wrong with 99% of people who whine for nerfs. The critical component that your calculus leaves out is the most important one of all: player skill. All the stats in the world shouldnt allow you to "overtake/overpower" players that are better than you. The good magblades who play proper builds dont struggle to take out any opponent barring a DK using wings.

Ah, thank you. I'm glad I brought some popcorn.

And since this thread is a joke anyway... Cloak technically gives 100% mitigation against all direct damage attacks (and DoTs too!). So it is even more disgusting than s&b or ice staff blocking. Your stats will not be enough to "overtake/overpower" a cloaking nightblade, should we nerf them too?

kaithuzar

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

You’re pretty on point. I do prioritize direct damage attacks but I also use sap.

But looking at the state of magblade what else is there? Cripple is the only “useful” dot we have; IMO it’s not even worth using & splitting up CP points to make it useful.

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

stats don't replace knowledge of the counters. If you start throwing out a bunch of direct dmg, all it takes is a dodge roll and one block for your target's healing to overcome the damage.

I havent played nightblade that much, but aside from the 8% max mag, wouldnt wall of elements give you better benefit?
10% penetration, AOE unpurged, procs enchants/poisons on cooldown, ice variant snares while chilled enemeies are immobilzed.

Diversify your attacks. You need a cc, a range ability, a GCD ignoring DOT and an AOE along with a variety of defensive options as well (block, dodge, LOS, etc). And you need the sustain to extend fights in your favor to look for mistakes to exploit.

CC = fear
Range = assassins will (merciless resolve)
GCD Ignoring Dot = I don’t understand why this would be necessary unless specifically building for a “dot playstyle”, such as a dk proc’ing skoria
Aoe = sap

DocFrost72

My tank has 30k resists, cp specced at max, and sword+staff and I nearly lose all 41k of my health blocking certain trial and dlc dungeon attacks.

How much are you talking you want to remove from the 20%?

kaithuzar

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

The_Brosteen

In a world of nerf bleed threads one soul had the courage to stand up to those cheesy s&b builds that deal 1-3k dps. Not all heros wear capes. Never change eso forums, never change.

DocFrost72

kaithuzar wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LOL. Someone who does not have any idea of PvE tanking needs.

I agree that it is wrong someone can build for strong survival and still do decent damage, but OPs idea is short sighted and ill thought.

This is a pvp thread. I haven’t stated anything about pve, I know full well this type of change “COULD” affect pve; but that’s largely up to their implementation. I’m merely stating what I view as a problem from a pvp perspective.

ZOS doesn't balance pvp and PvE separate anymore. Battle spirit is not likely to change. Hence, my concern.

Minno

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

At the very least this gave me a good laugh. I feel for poor op, btw you are aware of the fact that Ice staff has the same damage mitigation like sword and board, where is the outrage over that? I mean Ice staff Wardens can be a huge pain in PvP. Why not complain about their mitigation?

Because OP is using all direct damage attacks and is trying to solo tanking warden zergs lol.

You’re pretty on point. I do prioritize direct damage attacks but I also use sap.

But looking at the state of magblade what else is there? Cripple is the only “useful” dot we have; IMO it’s not even worth using & splitting up CP points to make it useful.

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

stats don't replace knowledge of the counters. If you start throwing out a bunch of direct dmg, all it takes is a dodge roll and one block for your target's healing to overcome the damage.

I havent played nightblade that much, but aside from the 8% max mag, wouldnt wall of elements give you better benefit?
10% penetration, AOE unpurged, procs enchants/poisons on cooldown, ice variant snares while chilled enemeies are immobilzed.

Diversify your attacks. You need a cc, a range ability, a GCD ignoring DOT and an AOE along with a variety of defensive options as well (block, dodge, LOS, etc). And you need the sustain to extend fights in your favor to look for mistakes to exploit.

CC = fear
Range = assassins will (merciless resolve)
GCD Ignoring Dot = I don’t understand why this would be necessary unless specifically building for a “dot playstyle”, such as a dk proc’ing skoria
Aoe = sap

You want an impactful dot so you don't have to waste precious global cooldowns providing pressure. And certain abilities give you 2/3 of these so its even more important to search out and find the sets/abilities you need to handle a wide assortment of builds.

For example, wall of elements is both an AOE and a GCD ignoring dot. The frost variant also provides a soft CC in the form of snares, and if you used force pulse/frost enchants, you will have essentially a free immobilze as well.

Look at bleed builds for another example, they don't have skoria, but bleeds provide something direct damage or stright up AOE cannot; a way to push damage while you are defending against burst or trying to stretch enemies apart.

Fear is your strongest CC. Damn thing drops block instantly on targets lol.

kaithuzar

CyrusArya wrote: »

For context, the OP is a perma cloaking Xv1 Nightblade. Im sick and tired of bad players screaming for nerfs to compensate for their inability to play well.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Shouldn’t buffed 4.5k spell damage, 16k penetration, 45% crit & 92% increased crit damage (according to an addons I use) ~60 points into inc crit dmg cp + race against time psijic skill;
Shouldn’t this scale of direct damage (glass canon style build) be enough to overtake/overpower any opponent?

No. It shouldn't. And your mentality with this logic demonstrates exactly whats wrong with 99% of people who whine for nerfs. The critical component that your calculus leaves out is the most important one of all: player skill. All the stats in the world shouldnt allow you to "overtake/overpower" players that are better than you. The good magblades who play proper builds dont struggle to take out any opponent barring a DK using wings.

O’rly & the MAJOR point your calculus leaves out is:
“There are no good magblades anymore, especially not solo.”

I can name all of 3 “decent” magblades in PC NA that play on vivec; can you?
I would love to hear about all these “good magblades that don’t have issues open world”, but the fact of the matter is they’ve all quit or re-rolled.