bg premade problem

Edziu

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Competitive PvP should be competitive.

ESO BGs are falling to category "Competitive PvP" yet they are nowhere near competitive.

Competitive PvP has some sort of ranking system, ESO BGs has none. Cumulative "leaderboard" is not a competitive leaderboard.

So, competitivness is a term that has no place in this thread.

you forgot to add to this availability fo many many proc sets, enchants/dot builds where it takes no skill to kill anyone especially on bg's where is no cp thanks which pvp will never be able to get even way to be competitive

Thogard

Zer0oo wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Premades aren’t really a problem at the highest level because most of the pugs you’d get put with are just as good if not better than the premades you’re going up against.

The problem are duo or trio queues with artificially inflated MMRs due to their group size... they get bumped up to the high MMR matches and they have no idea how to play competitively at that level and they just get farmed and doublestuffed.

I’d take four ultra-high MMR solo queuers that know how to work the map over a premade trio any day of the week. And I’d take Stam sorcs or good mag sorcs over a healer any day is the week. But if I see a teammate guarding another teammate I realize that there’s practically nothing I can do to win because both of them are just gonna set up kills that’ll get stolen by the other team with good timing.

Often times in pc NA high MMR BGs, if we see healer/guard heavy premades queueing in that get placed against solo queuers it’s the easiest match you can hope for at that level since they move so slow and predictably and are so easy to sandwich and kill steal from

You would take a mag sorc over a healer? mag sorc is for me the second most useless class in higher mmrs

A good healer is stronger than anything else in my opinion. For me is a good healer someone with enough heals to keep you alive for some time while still doing good damage. (Not just some healing spam templer)

It’s not even close.

But we’re assuming that none of the pugs are weak and all know how to kite / position.

Sharee

Thogard wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

That's why we have a solo queue, eh?

Clearly group activity =/= clearly premade group activity.

We don’t have a solo queue. The thing is literally called the group finder.., that’s because it finds a group for you before putting you into the match.

Fine.

We have a "queue that allows players to queue into battlegrounds without forming a group first". Happy?
Okay. Now, for the simplicity of communication, let's call it a "solo queue".

With semantics behind us, lets look at the facts:

1, Solo queue exists.
2, It exists, therefore it is meant to be used.
3, Therefore, any argument "its a group activity, if you don't make a premade its your own fault" is wrong. It is not a "fault" to use a mechanic that is meant to be used.
4, if using the solo queue results in an unsatisfactory experience, it means solo queueing mechanic is broken, and needs to be fixed(not ignored!). Thus, this thread.

Olupajmibanan

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

That's why we have a solo queue, eh?

Clearly group activity =/= clearly premade group activity.

We don’t have a solo queue. The thing is literally called the group finder.., that’s because it finds a group for you before putting you into the match.

Fine.

We have a "queue that allows players to queue into battlegrounds without forming a group first". Happy?
Okay. Now, for the simplicity of communication, let's call it a "solo queue".

With semantics behind us, lets look at the facts:

1, Solo queue exists.
2, It exists, therefore it is meant to be used.
3, Therefore, any argument "its a group activity, if you don't make a premade its your own fault" is wrong. It is not a "fault" to use a mechanic that is meant to be used.
4, if using the solo queue results in an unsatisfactory experience, it means solo queueing mechanic is broken, and needs to be fixed(not ignored!). Thus, this thread.

Actually, their argument "find your own group" does not work either. The premade MMR-altering coeficient for being group is the reason.

I have three characters with very high MMR. When I logged with my friends (who don't have that high MMR, and don't play BGs often) as any of these three characters, we end up against organized premade consisting of EU stars (hint: one's name is similar to the name of hazard card game). We got utterly stomped, so it was bad experience for my friends, for me and also for the opposing premade who had no sport in it.

You are getting punished for playing solo, you are getting punished for playing in 4-premade if not made from high-end BG players. Any options left? What will these guys suggest now? Play with your friends but as characters you don't like? Make new character (same class as my three favourite) just to be able to play with friends?

Karmanorway

I have this problem with BGs too. I have played it a lot solo which went fine, No premades except when its really late.

Not Long ago i went in there with friends and we got crushed over and over again by premades. How do i know they were premades? Both teams had argonian Magden for healing and snare, + templar healer and two spin2win DDs.

It was like that 5 matches in a row, and not even the same players...

Olupajmibanan

Karmanorway wrote: »

I have this problem with BGs too. I have played it a lot solo which went fine, No premades except when its really late.

Not Long ago i went in there with friends and we got crushed over and over again by premades. How do i know they were premades? Both teams had argonian Magden for healing and snare, + templar healer and two spin2win DDs.

It was like that 5 matches in a row, and not even the same players...

I found a workaround for this. Not very consistent but works. Exclude Deathmatch from your queue. When I log with my friends, we usually meet the ultra premades on deathmatches. I suspect, they specifically log deathmatch and have builds adapted to that exact mode.

Since we excluded deathmatches, we encounter much less uber premades.

Solariken

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

I have this problem with BGs too. I have played it a lot solo which went fine, No premades except when its really late.

Not Long ago i went in there with friends and we got crushed over and over again by premades. How do i know they were premades? Both teams had argonian Magden for healing and snare, + templar healer and two spin2win DDs.

It was like that 5 matches in a row, and not even the same players...

I found a workaround for this. Not very consistent but works. Exclude Deathmatch from your queue. When I log with my friends, we usually meet the ultra premades on deathmatches. I suspect, they specifically log deathmatch and have builds adapted to that exact mode.

Since we excluded deathmatches, we encounter much less uber premades.

Yeah this generally works well, but it feels bad because deathmatch is the most fun mode (when it's not being abused/exploited).

exeeter702

The higher up you get with a given character in regards to mmr, the less premades are an issue since 4 strong players are nearly just as good as a premade. especially when you consider the lopsided anti competitive nature of the 3 team format.

The problem is at the foundation of bgs as they exist in eso.

separate queues for premade groups was never going to work since the player pool is not healthy enough to support that type of division if reasonable queue times were desired. Premades whould have to wait and organize queues with other premades to avoid very long waits. And since most premades that try to arrange matchups already with the current system that prioritizes placing premades agaisnt other premades, this is a redundant point to even make.

while not specifically relating to premades vs pugs, mmr matchmaking or ranked vs unranked also doesnt work for the same reasons: there simply isnt enough players to have such a robust and devided matchmaking algorithm for variable player tiers without drastically increasing queue times for all.

I say this time and time again and i will take this to my grave.... 8v8 bgs with unique maps designed around specific objective (as opposed to universal maps that cater to all game types) should have been the format from the begining. 8v8 with objectives designed to all but guarantee a loss if a given team tries to zerg a single point with all 8 members, that generally stomps out the weaker arguments like "8 player ult dumping ball groups would be terrible" that i have seen countless times expressed.

In an 8 man team format, you limit premades to 4 players and the matchmaking does the rest to sort out duos, trios, and solos for both sides to achieve a sort of balance. A fully premade filled bg would consist of 4 4 man teams. A 4 man premade still has agency in influencing the outcome of a match but still have 4 other players, either 4 solos, 2 duos or a trio + solo on their team. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of bgs being a pubstomp for a solo queue player facing up against grouped players.

The added benefit here is queue times would actually be BETTER because there is less matchmaking work that has to be done on the systems end because it doesnt have to sort out 3 different teams based on mmr and group composition. All it has to do is sort out the various different groups in queue and put them on 2 teams of 8.

4+4
3+1+4
3+1+2+2

So on and so forth,

4v4 bgs are just dm arenas
6v6 is not an even format for eso group systems
12v12 is unwieldy and allows players to get away with playing poorly and get carried

8v8 gives premades a healthy queue, it allows all players to have a meaningful impact on a match and forces all players to require playing well, and it allows solo queus to face premades and not be a guarunteed blowout.

Urvoth

Zer0oo wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Premades aren’t really a problem at the highest level because most of the pugs you’d get put with are just as good if not better than the premades you’re going up against.

The problem are duo or trio queues with artificially inflated MMRs due to their group size... they get bumped up to the high MMR matches and they have no idea how to play competitively at that level and they just get farmed and doublestuffed.

I’d take four ultra-high MMR solo queuers that know how to work the map over a premade trio any day of the week. And I’d take Stam sorcs or good mag sorcs over a healer any day is the week. But if I see a teammate guarding another teammate I realize that there’s practically nothing I can do to win because both of them are just gonna set up kills that’ll get stolen by the other team with good timing.

Often times in pc NA high MMR BGs, if we see healer/guard heavy premades queueing in that get placed against solo queuers it’s the easiest match you can hope for at that level since they move so slow and predictably and are so easy to sandwich and kill steal from

You would take a mag sorc over a healer? mag sorc is for me the second most useless class in higher mmrs

A good healer is stronger than anything else in my opinion. For me is a good healer someone with enough heals to keep you alive for some time while still doing good damage. (Not just some healing spam templer)

Healers are a lot stronger in bad team comps, but aren't nearly as useful for optimal groups. A group with a mix of 3 competent stamdens/stamsorcs/stamplars and a magsorc isn't going to need a healer. Having a single magsorc on a team is pretty useful because of the execute, but having more than one just becomes redundant and makes the overall team too squishy.

idk

Biro123 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Not really. If it was meant to be a group experience, it would only let you join if you were already in a group.

Some want it to be a group experience, some want it to be a solo experience. So separate them and let both be happy. How can that be difficult to understand?

Your reasoning is flawed. It is group content without any doubt.. In no way is it solo because you get placed with a group even if you queue solo. How can that be difficult to understand? It is so obvious.

Urvoth

Biro123 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Another whiner thread. If you don't want to make your own group then do duels, there is your 1 V 1. I mean what are you going to do make a post every time you die? I mean idc if they separate it but I just see this as a lazy request to lower the ceiling once again. Why should you be rewarded for not being good or not putting in the work to have a good group in Bgs or Cyro? If you feel healers and tankys make the group better then be one yourself for your random team.

Wow - the elitism BS here is real..

I've seen many a player in open-world that, in their small group, takes a whole zerg to kill - yet when alone, drops to just little old me.

Am I bad because I don't want to put a 4-man group together? or am I bad because I can only kill them when its a 1v1? Or are they bad because they need their 4-man group to carry them?

The average player skill in cyro is way lower than in BGs, though. Half the players in cyro are free kills, and it’s pretty easy for a competent group to fight a much larger noob squad. You can’t hide behind the Zerg in BGs, so everyone that plays them a lot is way more competent than your typical zergling.

qbit

Nerf groups.

kaiage

Let me check the EP charge on the Mortuum Vivicus…… If it appeases me, I'll fight with you random mercenaries.

Just so you know if the EP charge on that Vivicus reaches full... all the other factions are DUST!

514 reasons to be in Cyrodiil instead.

Bashev

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups, though I get the feeling that depending on the queue population it just sticks everyone together sometimes.

Coming up against premades as a pug is definitely a problem. But not all the groups that stomp you are premades.

I've been in pugs where everyone just got it together and stomped the opposition. I've got a screenshot of a pug I was in that won a death match with 0 deaths.
I'm pretty sure the other teams would have thought we were a premade (if i was on the other team I would too) but everyone just worked well together and we had 2 healers.

This. Usually when i play with my warden semi tank semi heal, my pug group wins 90% of the games.
The problem is not so much premades vs pugs but groups with healers and group whit dps only. I think ZoS should try to put at least one healer in each group.

Sharee

exeeter702 wrote: »

separate queues for premade groups was never going to work since the player pool is not healthy enough to support that type of division if reasonable queue times were desired.

Chicken and egg problem. How many potential new BG players tried out BGs and gave up on them completely after encountering a premade, thus reducing the player pool?

Take me for example. I am missing from the BG player pool because of the fact there is no such division (had enough of that BS after several years in SWTOR).

exeeter702

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

separate queues for premade groups was never going to work since the player pool is not healthy enough to support that type of division if reasonable queue times were desired.

Chicken and egg problem. How many potential new BG players tried out BGs and gave up on them completely after encountering a premade, thus reducing the player pool?

Take me for example. I am missing from the BG player pool because of the fact there is no such division (had enough of that BS after several years in SWTOR).

Doesnt matter, the scale of said problem is larger than the scenario that you are describing. If BGs were designed the right way, solo queuing wouldnt be so miserable. There is simply not enough players to support that division within an mmo of varying player types.

I find your swtor complaint curious. Swtor had separations between ranked and unranked and queue times were absolutely atrocious for ranked. And non ranked premades were rarely an issue over the course of swtors lifespan. In my entire 5 years of solo pvp in wzs, i have NEVER had an issue where premades were a significant problem. And that is in an mmo that does not limit premades to 4 players on a team of 8.

Creating premade and solo queues solves no problems and punishes players that want to play together with awful waiting times. Where is the line drawn? Duos, and solos get their own queue? What about 3 mans? They need a fourth player who will have to be solo queued and spoiler alert, a 3 man premade can pubstomp solos just as bad.

So what is your solution within the confinements of the 3 team 4 man structure of eso bgs? You are ok with getting curb stomped by 3 man premades so long as they arent 4 man premades? Or are you in favor of a purely solo queue were only non partied players are put in a match at the result of screwing over everyone with longer queue times accross the board?

EDIT: I just want to state that i give eso pvp players or those who desire getting good at pvp a little more credit than giving up on bgs entirely after encountering a single premade. That is some fairly weak resolve.

Sharee

exeeter702 wrote: »

EDIT: I just want to state that i give eso pvp players or those who desire getting good at pvp a little more credit than giving up on bgs entirely after encountering a single premade. That is some fairly weak resolve.

The problem is that the new player did not queue into the BG to "get good at pvp". He queued to find out whether he likes it or not. Nobody will invest time to "get good" or "have resolve" to do so if the activity is not fun for him in the firstplace.

If you put such a player against a premade, its an instant turn-off. He will turn on the heel and never look back. And then you wonder why the BG player pool is so small.

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find your swtor complaint curious. Swtor had separations between ranked and unranked and queue times were absolutely atrocious for ranked. And non ranked premades were rarely an issue over the course of swtors lifespan.

Oh really.

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=874018

Thread title: "The premade problem"

First sentence: "I know there are hundreds of different forum threads on this subject..."

Mayrael

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Competitive PvP should be competitive.

If you want competitive PvP then why do you insist on stompig pugs with your premade?

Simply this.

Thogard

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

EDIT: I just want to state that i give eso pvp players or those who desire getting good at pvp a little more credit than giving up on bgs entirely after encountering a single premade. That is some fairly weak resolve.

The problem is that the new player did not queue into the BG to "get good at pvp". He queued to find out whether he likes it or not. Nobody will invest time to "get good" or "have resolve" to do so if the activity is not fun for him in the firstplace.

If you put such a player against a premade, its an instant turn-off. He will turn on the heel and never look back. And then you wonder why the BG player pool is so small.

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find your swtor complaint curious. Swtor had separations between ranked and unranked and queue times were absolutely atrocious for ranked. And non ranked premades were rarely an issue over the course of swtors lifespan.

Oh really.

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=874018

Thread title: "The premade problem"

First sentence: "I know there are hundreds of different forum threads on this subject..."

Brand new players to BGs won’t get premades. The MMR system artificially inflates the rating of the premades solely because they’re premades.

Premades arent a problem at the bottom or the top, but they are a problem in the middle and upper middle. I did some queues today on a mid MMR character and it was painful - none of my teammates could kite the enemy premades, they would get mowed over and then it would just be me vs the 4... And the third team would also get mowed over. I need the pugs to be able to kite / stay alive a little longer to be effective against a premade

exeeter702

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

EDIT: I just want to state that i give eso pvp players or those who desire getting good at pvp a little more credit than giving up on bgs entirely after encountering a single premade. That is some fairly weak resolve.

The problem is that the new player did not queue into the BG to "get good at pvp". He queued to find out whether he likes it or not. Nobody will invest time to "get good" or "have resolve" to do so if the activity is not fun for him in the firstplace.

If you put such a player against a premade, its an instant turn-off. He will turn on the heel and never look back. And then you wonder why the BG player pool is so small.

exeeter702 wrote: »

I find your swtor complaint curious. Swtor had separations between ranked and unranked and queue times were absolutely atrocious for ranked. And non ranked premades were rarely an issue over the course of swtors lifespan.

Oh really.

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=874018

Thread title: "The premade problem"

First sentence: "I know there are hundreds of different forum threads on this subject..."

Hyperbolic forum nonsense. And swtor does not limit premade counts to half the size of a team.

A new player can try bgs and get blown up just as bad agaisnt 4 solo queued experienced players who are simply playing on alts, which is very common since mmr is tied to character not player and high mmr queues are awful. And even then premades are not stomping solos in low mmr matches witch such frequency to turn away new players. You are painting a scenario to support a narrative that doesnt exist.

Again, a bg match is not a long term investment and a new player giving up on the pvp content entirely because of a few blowout games is pretty sad.

Sharee

exeeter702 wrote: »

A new player can try bgs and get blown up just as bad agaisnt 4 solo queued experienced players who are simply playing on alts, which is very common since mmr is tied to character not player and high mmr queues are awful.

There just so happen to be 4 solo queued experienced players all on new toons. They just so happen to be all put on the same team. And there just so happen to be no such players on the newbies team.

The best you can say about the above is that it isn't completely impossible. But very common? Tell me more about that hyperbolic forum nonsense.

exeeter702

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

A new player can try bgs and get blown up just as bad agaisnt 4 solo queued experienced players who are simply playing on alts, which is very common since mmr is tied to character not player and high mmr queues are awful.

There just so happen to be 4 solo queued experienced players all on new toons. They just so happen to be all put on the same team. And there just so happen to be no such players on the newbies team.

The best you can say about the above is that it isn't completely impossible. But very common? Tell me more about that hyperbolic forum nonsense.

Are you serious right now? The point is a new player wouldnt know any better to begin with. And low mmr bgs often have a handful of experienced players on alts. Based on your postion on this subject i have to assume you do not participate in bgs here enough to see it. Otherwise i dont what to tell you.

Premades at low mmr is not an issue

Premades at high mmr can be depending on the skill level of said premade.

New players that avoid bgs because of the occasional premade in low mmr, were likely not going to stick around regardless.

max_only

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

A new player can try bgs and get blown up just as bad agaisnt 4 solo queued experienced players who are simply playing on alts, which is very common since mmr is tied to character not player and high mmr queues are awful.

There just so happen to be 4 solo queued experienced players all on new toons. They just so happen to be all put on the same team. And there just so happen to be no such players on the newbies team.

The best you can say about the above is that it isn't completely impossible. But very common? Tell me more about that hyperbolic forum nonsense.

This has been my experience in below 50 BGs. +1

Sharee

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

A new player can try bgs and get blown up just as bad agaisnt 4 solo queued experienced players who are simply playing on alts, which is very common since mmr is tied to character not player and high mmr queues are awful.

There just so happen to be 4 solo queued experienced players all on new toons. They just so happen to be all put on the same team. And there just so happen to be no such players on the newbies team.

The best you can say about the above is that it isn't completely impossible. But very common? Tell me more about that hyperbolic forum nonsense.

Are you serious right now? The point is a new player wouldnt know any better to begin with. And low mmr bgs often have a handful of experienced players on alts.

Yes. But they are generally distributed across the teams. They are not very commonly all put on the same team like you would have people believe. Thus they are not a problem. The newbie knows he is a newbie. He expects to die. But he also expects there will be a fun fight. A few veteran players mixed into all 3 teams deliver just that. As opposed to a premade which will only cause frustration on the receiving end.