bg premade problem

Noctus

its getting annoying beeing stomped by premade groups in pvp.... especially when they consist of healers and tanks. its very hard to get a kill then. please give us 2 vs 2 gamemode or anything smaller. would split the community but atleast it wont make less ppl play bg becouse of 4/3/2 group situations or the premade stomp. someone having such situations when starting out pvp as a new player will quit pvp definately

Noctus

erased

NoMoreChillies

is there not a premade queue separate from individual queue?

LAME

LordGavus

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups, though I get the feeling that depending on the queue population it just sticks everyone together sometimes.

Coming up against premades as a pug is definitely a problem. But not all the groups that stomp you are premades.

I've been in pugs where everyone just got it together and stomped the opposition. I've got a screenshot of a pug I was in that won a death match with 0 deaths.
I'm pretty sure the other teams would have thought we were a premade (if i was on the other team I would too) but everyone just worked well together and we had 2 healers.

max_only

Premades are the worst. They need to remove the ability to have premade teams altogether or have mandatory voice coms on pc like a FPS game would.

I was leveling through BGs last weekend and there was an obvious Premade team playing, because 3 matches in a row they were together and the rest of us were scrambled. It got to the point where we just stopped playing with them lol. Green and Purple sought each other out on the battlefield and ignored Red (the premade) because as soon as they found us 8, it was a slaughterhouse. No chance at all. All 8 of us would Rez back and look for each other in another spot far from the last until Red found us again. Annoying to say the least. In at least one battle they weren’t even doing the objective, just farming kills on the other two teams. Literally the chaos ball was dropped and forgotten.

Noctus

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups, though I get the feeling that depending on the queue population it just sticks everyone together sometimes.

Coming up against premades as a pug is definitely a problem. But not all the groups that stomp you are premades.

I've been in pugs where everyone just got it together and stomped the opposition. I've got a screenshot of a pug I was in that won a death match with 0 deaths.
I'm pretty sure the other teams would have thought we were a premade (if i was on the other team I would too) but everyone just worked well together and we had 2 healers.

i think there is an imbalance with healing abilities and dps abilities. like vigor dealing 14 to 17 k heals to self and 12to14 k heals to others depending on ur gear. as i stated on another thread any dps ability with those numbers would be best in slot,
im certain that heal focused characters and classes are loosing less matches than others. also had a match once with 4 dk in enemy team spaming reflect and vigor to keep each other alive that was nuts. this is why i went to forum about the reflect it made 50 % of my team useless against that group. for magblades there is just no counter to this at the moment. vigor gave no chance to kill them as magicka class for the duration of their reflect.

idk

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

Everyone has the choice to start grouping with others. Competitive PvP should be competitive.

Noctus

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

Everyone has the choice to start grouping with others. Competitive PvP should be competitive.

what about competetive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 then ;D

ChunkyCat

ZoS don’t care.

LordGavus

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

Everyone has the choice to start grouping with others. Competitive PvP should be competitive.

Are you sure there's not separate queues?
It seems to me that whenever I queue in a group I'm waiting a good 5+ minutes. Where as queing separate is almost instant.

Dunno, might just be me?

I do agree that premades shouldn't be penalised with longer queues, but there is also nothing competitive about premades rolling pugs.

All that said however, I only see a truly dominate bg team once every 9-10 games. At least half the games are competitive and for every 500-0-0 stomping there is a game where every team is within a few points.

Qbiken

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

Everyone has the choice to start grouping with others. Competitive PvP should be competitive.

If BG´s were actually competitive PvP you would have a point. But in order for it to be somewhat competitive I feel BG´s need a few changes:

* First of all, let me know what my actual MMR rating is. You can´t have competitive PvP if you can´t measure and compare things. And the current BG leaderboard isn't´ a very good measurement in my opinion.

* As far as I know your MMR is basically based on the number of games you´ve played with that character, and doesn´t take into consideration whether you win or lose. This is in need of a change (assuming what I wrote in my previous sentence is correct).

Gnozo

Noctus wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups, though I get the feeling that depending on the queue population it just sticks everyone together sometimes.

Coming up against premades as a pug is definitely a problem. But not all the groups that stomp you are premades.

I've been in pugs where everyone just got it together and stomped the opposition. I've got a screenshot of a pug I was in that won a death match with 0 deaths.
I'm pretty sure the other teams would have thought we were a premade (if i was on the other team I would too) but everyone just worked well together and we had 2 healers.

i think there is an imbalance with healing abilities and dps abilities. like vigor dealing 14 to 17 k heals to self and 12to14 k heals to others depending on ur gear. as i stated on another thread any dps ability with those numbers would be best in slot,
im certain that heal focused characters and classes are loosing less matches than others. also had a match once with 4 dk in enemy team spaming reflect and vigor to keep each other alive that was nuts. this is why i went to forum about the reflect it made 50 % of my team useless against that group. for magblades there is just no counter to this at the moment. vigor gave no chance to kill them as magicka class for the duration of their reflect.

So many wrong Informations there.

17k vigor is maybe the tooltip with cp enabled. Bgs are without cp. And also then 17k vigor tooltip is hard to get execpt in stamdk with major mending.

And 17k is before battlespirit wich makes it maybe 8.5k heal over 5 seconds. The tick is then 1700 hps without defile in cp. In no cp this is about 1.200 ticks. And a "DD" who cant out dps 1.200 hps vigor isnt a DD tbh.

Magblade could switch to crushing shock if they see a DK with 100% Wings uptime for example. And btw, no stamdk can maintain 100% uptime on wings. So timing is everything you need.

Sharee

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

Biro123

It's why I don't do bg's.

Im in cyrodill every day, but won't do bg's.

This is why the queues aren't big enough to separate them on the first place.

When cyrodill eventually dies, I'll quit the game rather than move to bg's that has premades Vs pugs.

Olupajmibanan

Separate solo/duo (duo premades aren't much of a problem, from experience these perform worse than two solos) and full 4-premade queue would solve a lot, but ZoS simply does not care. Their primary interest is PvE. They obviously don't know how to create, balance and keep competitive PvP environment.
The proof of this is the list of players sorted by time played in descending order that ZoS calls a leaderboard.

Kadoin

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

is there not a premade queue separate from individual queue?

LAME

No there is not. It gets better when you have 2x premade from the same guild. I've had 8 players hound me in BGs 24/7 because I had past 25 kills and 0 deaths. Luckily that usually results in more kills Quite satisfying to make two pre-made groups colluding angry and so are the tells they send afterwards. But that's not possible all the time, like in chasosball... And that's why I usually only go once for the daily exp.

idk

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Biro123

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Not really. If it was meant to be a group experience, it would only let you join if you were already in a group.

Some want it to be a group experience, some want it to be a solo experience. So separate them and let both be happy. How can that be difficult to understand?

max_only

The amazing experience of being rolled by premade groups of twinked out alts in under 50 Battlegrounds is sure to garner goodwill and create some long time players. Not.

Chilly-McFreeze

idk wrote: »

Competitive PvP should be competitive.

If you want competitive PvP then why do you insist on stompig pugs with your premade?

Gnozo

Biro123 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Not really. If it was meant to be a group experience, it would only let you join if you were already in a group.

Some want it to be a group experience, some want it to be a solo experience. So separate them and let both be happy. How can that be difficult to understand?

Same as dungeons but ppl are still able to enter them solo and even finish them.

From what i understand is that the group finder tries first to match solo with solo and premade with premade. If they are waiting to long finder tries to match solo with 2 man premade and after this 3 man premade to shorten the waiting time.

And tbh. Battlegrounds is an objective based content done for groups of 4 ppl. If these groups are now random or premade isnt important here but ofc premade groups with group setups and Discord/teamspeak will mostly perform better then random groups. Like im ever other group based game.

Girl_Number8

Another whiner thread. If you don't want to make your own group then do duels, there is your 1 V 1. I mean what are you going to do make a post every time you die? I mean idc if they separate it but I just see this as a lazy request to lower the ceiling once again. Why should you be rewarded for not being good or not putting in the work to have a good group in Bgs or Cyro? If you feel healers and tankys make the group better then be one yourself for your random team.

Thogard

Premades aren’t really a problem at the highest level because most of the pugs you’d get put with are just as good if not better than the premades you’re going up against.

The problem are duo or trio queues with artificially inflated MMRs due to their group size... they get bumped up to the high MMR matches and they have no idea how to play competitively at that level and they just get farmed and doublestuffed.

I’d take four ultra-high MMR solo queuers that know how to work the map over a premade trio any day of the week. And I’d take Stam sorcs or good mag sorcs over a healer any day is the week. But if I see a teammate guarding another teammate I realize that there’s practically nothing I can do to win because both of them are just gonna set up kills that’ll get stolen by the other team with good timing.

Often times in pc NA high MMR BGs, if we see healer/guard heavy premades queueing in that get placed against solo queuers it’s the easiest match you can hope for at that level since they move so slow and predictably and are so easy to sandwich and kill steal from

Olupajmibanan

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Competitive PvP should be competitive.

ESO BGs are falling to category "Competitive PvP" yet they are nowhere near competitive.

Competitive PvP has some sort of ranking system, ESO BGs has none. Cumulative "leaderboard" is not a competitive leaderboard.

So, competitivness is a term that has no place in this thread.

Biro123

Gnozo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Not really. If it was meant to be a group experience, it would only let you join if you were already in a group.

Some want it to be a group experience, some want it to be a solo experience. So separate them and let both be happy. How can that be difficult to understand?

Same as dungeons but ppl are still able to enter them solo and even finish them.

From what i understand is that the group finder tries first to match solo with solo and premade with premade. If they are waiting to long finder tries to match solo with 2 man premade and after this 3 man premade to shorten the waiting time.

And tbh. Battlegrounds is an objective based content done for groups of 4 ppl. If these groups are now random or premade isnt important here but ofc premade groups with group setups and Discord/teamspeak will mostly perform better then random groups. Like im ever other group based game.

Not really.. many dungeons - especially the newer ones - have specific mechanics built in to make them impossible to solo.

You're right though premades will always perform better - but the multipliers to that are huge.. complimentary builds to give a great spread of buffs, heals and synergies makes each one of them individually much stronger than any non-premade opponent. The ability to focus timed burst, means that individually they can build to be tanky as hell to never die, yet still score kills as a group..
The differences are so great that they should never be put against each other. Honestly anyone defending this is isn't looking for competition - they just want an easy ride in an uneven contest.

Noctus

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Another whiner thread. If you don't want to make your own group then do duels, there is your 1 V 1. I mean what are you going to do make a post every time you die? I mean idc if they separate it but I just see this as a lazy request to lower the ceiling once again. Why should you be rewarded for not being good or not putting in the work to have a good group in Bgs or Cyro? If you feel healers and tankys make the group better then be one yourself for your random team.

lower the ceiling ? not beeing good ? so healbotting in a premade group is skill then ?

Biro123

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Another whiner thread. If you don't want to make your own group then do duels, there is your 1 V 1. I mean what are you going to do make a post every time you die? I mean idc if they separate it but I just see this as a lazy request to lower the ceiling once again. Why should you be rewarded for not being good or not putting in the work to have a good group in Bgs or Cyro? If you feel healers and tankys make the group better then be one yourself for your random team.

Wow - the elitism BS here is real..

I've seen many a player in open-world that, in their small group, takes a whole zerg to kill - yet when alone, drops to just little old me.

Am I bad because I don't want to put a 4-man group together? or am I bad because I can only kill them when its a 1v1? Or are they bad because they need their 4-man group to carry them?

Sharee

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

That's why we have a solo queue, eh?

Clearly group activity =/= clearly premade group activity.

Thogard

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

That's why we have a solo queue, eh?

Clearly group activity =/= clearly premade group activity.

We don’t have a solo queue. The thing is literally called the group finder.., that’s because it finds a group for you before putting you into the match.

Gnozo

Biro123 wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

I think there is supposed to be separate queues for singles and groups.

Nope and there should not be. Separating them would just lengthen the queue (mathematical certainty). It is not logical to punish players that actually group for group activities so this will not happen for the logical reasons.

As opposed to punish players who do not group before queueing. Making those suffer against a premade over and over is completely fine. Because their fun is clearly not as important as that of the premades.

They are choosing to queue solo for what is clearly a group activity. They clearly have a choice to group up first, then queue, yet they do not. Nothing is being taken away from them.

I cannot fathom how this logic is so difficult for some to understand.

Not really. If it was meant to be a group experience, it would only let you join if you were already in a group.

Some want it to be a group experience, some want it to be a solo experience. So separate them and let both be happy. How can that be difficult to understand?

Same as dungeons but ppl are still able to enter them solo and even finish them.

From what i understand is that the group finder tries first to match solo with solo and premade with premade. If they are waiting to long finder tries to match solo with 2 man premade and after this 3 man premade to shorten the waiting time.

And tbh. Battlegrounds is an objective based content done for groups of 4 ppl. If these groups are now random or premade isnt important here but ofc premade groups with group setups and Discord/teamspeak will mostly perform better then random groups. Like im ever other group based game.

Not really.. many dungeons - especially the newer ones - have specific mechanics built in to make them impossible to solo.

You're right though premades will always perform better - but the multipliers to that are huge.. complimentary builds to give a great spread of buffs, heals and synergies makes each one of them individually much stronger than any non-premade opponent. The ability to focus timed burst, means that individually they can build to be tanky as hell to never die, yet still score kills as a group..
The differences are so great that they should never be put against each other. Honestly anyone defending this is isn't looking for competition - they just want an easy ride in an uneven contest.

If we had enough players doing BGs that your premade group doesnt need to wait for 45 minutes to do an 10 minutes deathmatch i am fine with only premades against premades but we all know this will never happend.

This game is nowhere near competetive or balanced or runs with good Performance in Client or server side.

I would like to play more BGs also with groups but the overall BGs experience is like the following:

Solo:
Longer waiting queue then the actual match you play
Getting stuck at "forming group" so you need to relog
"Someone decliened....." spam
Getting put into a running match where it stands 400-50-80 And ofc you are in the Team with the score of 50.
Fight with 2 players against two full teams for 4 minutes until your group is full leaving you with a score you cant catch up.

Premade:
Crazy long waiting queues (40 minutes and more) for a 10 minutes match.
Getting stuck on forming group
"Someone decliened...." spam

Overall:
Completly unbalanced Gameplay.
Procset meta. Sets doing more damage then the player themself.
Overperforming bleeds...

Fix group finder, fix lag, bring balance and more ppl will play pvp and BGs. Then you can have your premade vs premade only

Zer0oo

Thogard wrote: »

Premades aren’t really a problem at the highest level because most of the pugs you’d get put with are just as good if not better than the premades you’re going up against.

The problem are duo or trio queues with artificially inflated MMRs due to their group size... they get bumped up to the high MMR matches and they have no idea how to play competitively at that level and they just get farmed and doublestuffed.

I’d take four ultra-high MMR solo queuers that know how to work the map over a premade trio any day of the week. And I’d take Stam sorcs or good mag sorcs over a healer any day is the week. But if I see a teammate guarding another teammate I realize that there’s practically nothing I can do to win because both of them are just gonna set up kills that’ll get stolen by the other team with good timing.

Often times in pc NA high MMR BGs, if we see healer/guard heavy premades queueing in that get placed against solo queuers it’s the easiest match you can hope for at that level since they move so slow and predictably and are so easy to sandwich and kill steal from

You would take a mag sorc over a healer? mag sorc is for me the second most useless class in higher mmrs

A good healer is stronger than anything else in my opinion. For me is a good healer someone with enough heals to keep you alive for some time while still doing good damage. (Not just some healing spam templer)