Playing against Premades all the time as a solo player and its frustrating? Here is the Solution.

K3ntaaa

Adapt.

This is a written guide based on my video guide i uploaded on my YT (Video guide and channel link at the bottom)

We cant change the fact that Solo players will face Premades. But we can still do something. You can chose what you want to do out of these 4 options:

a) Adapt
b) Reroll Class
c) Accept your Death in silence
d) Cry on forums / ingame chat and blame premades

So the last 3 are no brainers so i dont need to explain but I'd like to talk about the "Adapt" option. In order to be able to adapt to something (in ESO) you need to know the meta. The high MMR BG's Meta is Outhealing your Opponents and then a) kill them with either Dots or Bleeds or b) kill them with sync'ed Burst Ults or Spin to win and outdamage their healing with AEO damage. But Surviving the enemies Damage has Number 1 Prioirty. Thats why healbots are so strong. Thats why Heavy Stam is so strong. Thats why medium armor stamblade is so weak.

So if you play against premades the chance that they understand the meta is quite high so they will most likely stack healing and still have a lot of pressure. They play team composition that support each other in terms of group healing (Magplar, Vigors), group support (Magdk / Magwarden perma rooting, playing with supporting Sets like transmutation, trollking etc.)
And if you queue solo you will get a random team. You dont know what they use, how they play etc. Everyone plays for themself. And thats exactly the reason why you get face rolled by premades.

You can win against a lot of premades only if you would play as a team aswell. And here comes the "adapt" part. You need to adapt your playstyle / Build / Mindset so you can fight against premades efficiently. That means you need to stack heals aswell, be tanky to survive the incomming damage, outheal the damage instead of splitting up and completely reset the fight once they push a bit.

So how can you survive the incomming damage? Play heavy on stam, play Builds that have some group utility through vigor stacking (you need to be tanky to vigor stack since you want to stay in the fight), play with resto so you can give shields on pressured allys, use transmutation on backbar (my stamden setup).
and dont play squishy setups because you will either get hard focused by the enemy so your a) dead all the time or b) not be able to support your team because you have to disengage to africa.

An example to demostrate: The life of a medium stamblade in High MMR BG's

Stamblades (medium or squishy heavy) need to kill priority targets or squishy ones. For example Healers or Mag sorcs that are too focused on KS and forget their shields. If they can do it (fullfil their role) they can have a good impact on the game. But what happens if no one is 1shot able anymore as a stamblade? Then your team is actually in a 3v4v4 scenario. And thats what happens most of the times. You cant join your team and help with healing since all the AEO will insta rip you. Your team lacks healing gets outhealed /outdamaged since you cant support them and they wipe.

And thats the current meta in high MMR BG's. Be tanky and Outhealing your opponents and premades are able to play the meta most of the times. Ofc Meta doesnt not mean everyone plays that way. So you have non meta picks like squishy stamblades and magblades etc aswell.

on a sidenote that might interest you:
People are saying just play spin to win and you get ez wins or stack enchant procs and bleeds for ez wins. These builds only work (in High MMR) if you have a team to rely on. These Builds are heavly group dependent. Because if you run spin to win you either go 2h backbar or play in medium therefore lose the tankiness because you drop either s&b or heavy armor. Same thing for bleeds and enchant builds. So if you dont have a team that gives group healing / group support then you will have a lot of damage for sure, but you cant do anything since you pop before the enemy pops since if you have an actualy team they will outheal you damage and you will struggle hard to win anything. (you probably end up with 1.5mil damage and like 30k healing and a lost game). Outhealing is 1. Priority. Then Damage.

so back to your 4 choices:

a) play heavy, be tanky, play group support builds, play as a team in general
b) reroll to a meta class (you dont even have to swap classes its just a playstyle / Build issue)
c) and d) you know already

Informations based on 250+ BG'S (deathmatch only) on stamden in the last month and the last 100+ BG's out of them are played Solo (PC EU)
If you disagree let me know :]

Link to the video guide:
https://youtu.be/hTVAhGZVd8o

Link to my channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLk4pslZg9bCWQQYTJt3AbQ?

jcm2606

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

Beardimus

Best way round it. Setup a team yourself. Fire with fire.

But I do agree if they setup a premade league, points, prizes, competitive etc teams would hang there.

K3ntaaa

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

Flips

Good walkthrough.

It's also the fact that 3 out of 4 bg modes favors tanks and healbots heavily.

jcm2606

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

K3ntaaa

Flips wrote: »

Good walkthrough.

It's also the fact that 3 out of 4 bg modes favors tanks and healbots heavily.

I forgot to mention that the guide is made for deathmatch. Its probably the same for other game modes aswell but personally I dont think the other game modes are worth talking about since their design has too many flaws.

But Its true what you say

K3ntaaa

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

I know there is a difference between premades and good premades with no counter play. But how often do you face no conter play premades? In my last 100 deathmatches i queued solo i faced maybe 1 group that i was like "damn, MM is annyoing". 1/100.
I cant think that you face this kind of groups on a regular basis. I dont know your playstyle or the how the people play in high MMR on NA but I think you just face average premades but since you or /and your teammates (just assumption, i dont know how you play) dont know how to actually play against a more coordinated gorup.
I face premades on a regular basis aswell but the game is not over before it even starts because of the MM.

And I actually think the MM is quite good. Low MMR player and newbies get actually matched against each other. High MMR players play against tryhards and coordinated Groups. Its kinda working as intended.

K3ntaaa

I think that the problems is that a solo player prefers to run fury + bone pirat over fury + transmutation. They prefer to play glass cannon steel torndo and relying on your team too much and giving no healing back. They prefer to play non group based classes / Builds like med stamblade or magdk without resto. Solo Players playing actually solo instead of queuing solo and playing as a team is the problem not premades per se. Its just premades know how to play as a team already so your first reaction might be blaming the premades.

jcm2606

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

I know there is a difference between premades and good premades with no counter play. But how often do you face no conter play premades? In my last 100 deathmatches i queued solo i faced maybe 1 group that i was like "damn, MM is annyoing". 1/100.
I cant think that you face this kind of groups on a regular basis. I dont know your playstyle or the how the people play in high MMR on NA but I think you just face average premades but since you or /and your teammates (just assumption, i dont know how you play) dont know how to actually play against a more coordinated gorup.
I face premades on a regular basis aswell but the game is not over before it even starts because of the MM.

And I actually think the MM is quite good. Low MMR player and newbies get actually matched against each other. High MMR players play against tryhards and coordinated Groups. Its kinda working as intended.

I've been facing them ever since Murkmire launched. No joke. Groups running perfectly coordinated builds, usually with a healbot templar (often with Guard on the hardest hitter), a magDK or a magden providing roots and stuns, and two high burst DPS, often ranged. Most of the ones I've faced are running enchant builds with a hard hitting monster set like Skoria or Zaan's.

They are actually borderline impossible to fight, as the healbot basically makes the team unkillable, the magDK/magden makes it so you cannot kite, and the two DPS delete you within less than a second. Most of the time, the moment I enter combat, I'm already at half health because their damage is so damn high. Even with a dedicated healer on my team focusing me, usually in voice comms (I generally play with a friend or two), I still take a ridiculous amount of damage.

This never used to happen before Murkmire, as I remember prior to Murkmire I'd be able to play with that same healer, and we'd duo entire teams. And yet the moment Murkmire dropped, BGs have been completely unplayable, and more so unenjoyable, for me. I don't know whether it is the changes to match making they made, or whether it is the enchant meta enabling such ridiculous damage. Probably both. But Murkmire *** up my experience, and I am actually done with BGs until they do something about it.

MMR is "working as intended" (I'll get to why this is quotes in a second), but the problem is the population in no way makes an advanced match making system effective. The simple truth of the matter is, very few people play PVP in ESO, let alone BGs. Because of this, while lower MMR brackets are likely full of different players, the top brackets (of which I'm seemingly in, but I can't tell for sure since MMR isn't exposed) only have maybe a dozen to two dozen players. Why do you think that newer players/characters have queues that pop instantly, while older players/characters who have seen thousands of matches can take anywhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours for a match?

There just isn't enough players at the top MMR brackets to support an advanced match making system like this, which not only makes it completely redundant at the top brackets, but it acts as a huge hindrance to players. My own experience, matching against premades over and over and over and over and over, pales in comparison to other players who actually do wait hours for a match. At this point, you could completely scrap MMR, and while the experience might get a bit worse for players at the bottom, since they're more likely to be matched against more skilled players, the experience will get hugely better for those at the top.

And the reason why I say "working as intended" in quotes is because if our best guess at how the MMR system works is correct (we can't know for sure, since only Zenimax knows how MMR is calculated), the MMR system is completely trash. The tl;dr of how we think the MMR system works is it basically takes the sum of all your medal scores from all of your matches, and it uses that to somehow calculate your MMR.

If this is correct, this means that MMR not only takes into account how good you are (since better players, in theory, tend to have higher medal scores per match), but how many matches you've played (more matches = higher medal score sum = higher MMR). Not only does this mean that *** players can be matched against great players, if the *** player has played many matches, but it also means that MMR can never decrease, and it never balances out. You will never consistently be matched against players with equal skill to you, though you will consistently be gradually matched against players with more skill.

This is probably why I'm constantly getting matched against premades. Since I've played a lot of games (everything I've said is in relation to my main character for PVP), my MMR is probably quite high, and prior to Murkmire I likely got into fairly balanced matches. Of course, I got the odd *** match, but the few matches after were generally fine.

They changed something in Murkmire, though, to help reduce queue times (whether it actually helped or not is another matter, as I've heard conflicting results). My guess is they made match making more lenient, allowing me to match against higher MMR players quicker (in theory I should also match against lower MMR players quicker, too, though my guess is I'm closer to the higher bracket than the lower bracket, and so the higher is the quicker one to match against). What supports my guess is I keep seeing largely the same teams, even on separate days.

Now, yes, I could just swallow the fact that I will now always match against premades, but, as I said in another thread, I'm not a masochist. I find absolutely zero joy in being shredded by the same team, with no opportunity to play offensively, or even defend myself. Playing these sort of matches back-to-back sucks the fun out of the game for me, so I've decided to simply stop doing BGs until something is changed, though as a result I've found I find less enjoyment in the game in general, and so find it hard to log in past my dailies. Whatever Murkmire has done, it has basically killed the game for me.

If the enchant changes come on Monday, I'll try a BG or two to see if they were playing a part, and if so how bad they are post-adjustment, but until then, I'm done with BGs.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant. Didn't intend on it being this long, but I just needed to get my feelings out there. It sucks to see something you used to enjoy doing with friends turn into complete trash. I actually feel like just logging in, doing my dailies, then logging out and doing something else, until this *** is sorted.

K3ntaaa

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

I know there is a difference between premades and good premades with no counter play. But how often do you face no conter play premades? In my last 100 deathmatches i queued solo i faced maybe 1 group that i was like "damn, MM is annyoing". 1/100.
I cant think that you face this kind of groups on a regular basis. I dont know your playstyle or the how the people play in high MMR on NA but I think you just face average premades but since you or /and your teammates (just assumption, i dont know how you play) dont know how to actually play against a more coordinated gorup.
I face premades on a regular basis aswell but the game is not over before it even starts because of the MM.

And I actually think the MM is quite good. Low MMR player and newbies get actually matched against each other. High MMR players play against tryhards and coordinated Groups. Its kinda working as intended.

I've been facing them ever since Murkmire launched. No joke. Groups running perfectly coordinated builds, usually with a healbot templar (often with Guard on the hardest hitter), a magDK or a magden providing roots and stuns, and two high burst DPS, often ranged. Most of the ones I've faced are running enchant builds with a hard hitting monster set like Skoria or Zaan's.

They are actually borderline impossible to fight, as the healbot basically makes the team unkillable, the magDK/magden makes it so you cannot kite, and the two DPS delete you within less than a second. Most of the time, the moment I enter combat, I'm already at half health because their damage is so damn high. Even with a dedicated healer on my team focusing me, usually in voice comms (I generally play with a friend or two), I still take a ridiculous amount of damage.

This never used to happen before Murkmire, as I remember prior to Murkmire I'd be able to play with that same healer, and we'd duo entire teams. And yet the moment Murkmire dropped, BGs have been completely unplayable, and more so unenjoyable, for me. I don't know whether it is the changes to match making they made, or whether it is the enchant meta enabling such ridiculous damage. Probably both. But Murkmire *** up my experience, and I am actually done with BGs until they do something about it.

MMR is "working as intended" (I'll get to why this is quotes in a second), but the problem is the population in no way makes an advanced match making system effective. The simple truth of the matter is, very few people play PVP in ESO, let alone BGs. Because of this, while lower MMR brackets are likely full of different players, the top brackets (of which I'm seemingly in, but I can't tell for sure since MMR isn't exposed) only have maybe a dozen to two dozen players. Why do you think that newer players/characters have queues that pop instantly, while older players/characters who have seen hundreds of matches can take anywhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours for a match?

There just isn't enough players at the top MMR brackets to support an advanced match making system like this, which not only makes it completely redundant at the top brackets, but it acts as a huge hindrance to players. My own experience, matching against premades over and over and over and over and over, pales in comparison to other players who actually do wait hours for a match. At this point, you could completely scrap MMR, and while the experience might get a bit worse for players at the bottom, since they're more likely to be matched against more skilled players, the experience will get hugely better for those at the top.

And the reason why I say "working as intended" in quotes is because if our best guess at how the MMR system works is correct (we can't know for sure, since only Zenimax knows how MMR is calculated), the MMR system is completely trash. The tl;dr of how we think the MMR system works is it basically takes the sum of all your medal scores from all of your matches, and it uses that to somehow calculate your MMR.

If this is correct, this means that MMR not only takes into account how good you are (since better players, in theory, tend to have higher medal scores per match), but how many matches you've played (more matches = higher medal score sum = higher MMR). Not only does this mean that *** players can be matched against great players, if the *** player has played many matches, but it also means that MMR can never decrease, and it never balances out. You will never consistently be matched against players with equal skill to you, though you will consistently be gradually matched against players with more skill.

This is probably why I'm constantly getting matched against premades. Since I've played a lot of games (everything I've said is in relation to my main character for PVP), my MMR is probably quite high, and prior to Murkmire I likely got into fairly balanced matches. Of course, I got the odd *** match, but the few matches after were generally fine.

They changed something in Murkmire, though, to help reduce queue times (whether it actually helped or not is another matter, as I've heard conflicting results). My guess is they made match making more lenient, allowing me to match against higher MMR players quicker (in theory I should also match against lower MMR players quicker, too, though my guess is I'm closer to the higher bracket than the lower bracket, and so the higher is the quicker one to match against). What supports my guess is I keep seeing largely the same teams, even on separate days.

Now, yes, I could just swallow the fact that I will now always match against premades, but, as I said in another thread, I'm not a masochist. I find absolutely zero joy in being shredded by the same team, with no opportunity to play offensively, or even defend myself. Playing these sort of matches back-to-back sucks the fun out of the game for me, so I've decided to simply stop doing BGs until something is changed, though as a result I've found I find less enjoyment in the game in general, and so find it hard to log in past my dailies. Whatever Murkmire has done, it has basically killed the game for me.

If the enchant changes come on Monday, I'll try a BG or two to see if they were playing a part, and if so how bad they are post-adjustment, but until then, I'm done with BGs.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant. Didn't intend on it being this long, but I just needed to get my feelings out there. It sucks to see something you used to enjoy doing with friends turn into complete trash. I actually feel like just logging in, doing my dailies, then logging out and doing something else, until this *** is sorted.

No need to apologize :P

Maybe its PC NA that has more active coordinated groups running so there is atleast 1 out of them queuing at almost all the time so you have these face roll matches. I dont think there are any active highly coordinated group on EU.
If you face these kind of groups all the time i can see why you are ranting and its toatly legitimate.

Im also annoyed by Zos that they dont give more informations about their MMR system. I really like to know if its based on Points like you described or Winrate but its true that the more you play the higher your MMR gets.

Maybe your MMR of your character is bugged so you ONLY get matched against highly coordinated groups. (Its still Zos we are talking about. Literally anything can be bugged).

Thogard

It’s interesting that this is how it goes on eu, because at least on pc NA this isn’t what people in the high MMR brackets should focus on.

You make zero mention of positioning. Zero mention of memorizing team spawn points locations. Zero mention of kiting to force a sandwich. Zero mention of waiting for your ults until the other two teams dump theirs.

These aren’t bg tactics. Just build ideas. Builds that quite frankly would get you killed in the high MMR matches in pc NA.

I’ll try to put something that’s more focused on NA rather than EU using vids from streams.

Edit: I disagree with most of the things you wrote but I edited my post because tbh the meta is probably different on eu.

On NA there are plenty of groups that play the way you write. And they lose to pugs every time because we already know the way to beat them.

Focusing on tanking and healing is a great way to get 2nd place.

RebornV3x

my solution before BGS came out was
A social queue in which no premades were allowed you still get AP and gear afterwards
and a ranked or comp queue in which Premades were allowed and for a slightly better reward for participating and maybe have its own leader board

K3ntaaa

I would be interested in seeing some NA clips. Maybe I can learn something and implement it in my own games.

But i honestly doubt that Meta / Lvl of gameplay of High MMR Battleground is such different. But I will definitely watch NA gameplay.

Thogard

K3ntaaa wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing some NA clips. Maybe I can learn something and implement it in my own games.

But i honestly doubt that Meta / Lvl of gameplay of High MMR Battleground is such different. But I will definitely watch NA gameplay.

It is. I have over 2k games on my stamden. I’ll stream it in about four hours you should tune in.

Pc NA is filled with Stam sorcs in the high MMR brackets

K3ntaaa

Sure sounds good I will most likely be there :]

Thogard

K3ntaaa wrote: »

Sure sounds good I will most likely be there :]

Hell yeah

Btw there’s a good chance this meta might only be possible with Stam sorcs now

Thogard

Didn’t get to fight any premades last night but still fought some competent pugs that moved cohesively (and who most people would accuse of being a premade) and I think it was still able to illustrate the main point around moving / kiting to avoid getting sandwiched by an enemy respawn. Not sure how much you saw.

I’ll make a video once I get some better footage

K3ntaaa

Thogard wrote: »

Didn’t get to fight any premades last night but still fought some competent pugs that moved cohesively (and who most people would accuse of being a premade) and I think it was still able to illustrate the main point around moving / kiting to avoid getting sandwiched by an enemy respawn. Not sure how much you saw.

I’ll make a video once I get some better footage

Yea I saw some of your games and there was I tip you gave that stuck in my mind and it was about knowing where they spawn so you can position yourself better after for example a won fight. I usually position myself to sandwich an enemy when I see them but you can position yourself even before that. That was a good tip.

But Solo Q looked quite similar overall for me :]
I will check the new video you make out for sure aswell

wheem_ESO

It's certainly true that solo queued teams could potentially do much better than is typical if they'd change their build up a bit, and/or actually make better use of skills that are already on their bars (seriously, I almost never get hit with a friendly Vigor unless I just so happen to get near a teammate when they're trying to heal themselves). However, there are many premades that are still going to truck right over a solid group of randoms. Maybe those randoms manage to land some kills (at least on a third team that might not be very good), die a lot less, put up more impressive scoreboard damage/healing, etc...but if one team has better focus fire and is coordinating 3 simultaneous Dawnbreakers on a big engagement and the other team isn't, the more coordinated team is ultimately going to win.

I don't mean to sound negative, and I'm certainly not bashing your video or attempt to help people perform better in battlegrounds, but there's not much that solo queued players can do against a group of coordinated tryhards. Heck, I can have Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Ward, the heal over time from Nature's Embrace ("Spiderman" Vine heal/pull), and Living Trellis (vines that heal me every 1 second that I take damage) all going at the same time while spamming Harness Magicka and wearing 5 light/2 heavy, and still effortlessly get wrecked in just a few seconds from focus firing Stam builds. If my team isn't able to focus fire as well as the tryhards (and they won't be, since they're not on voice comms), we're going to lose.

Just how many of these tryhard teams there are, I can't say. But they're certainly not what I would call "rare" when your MMR is fairly high on PC-NA. It's especially bad when you run into them during off-hours, because your possible selection of teammates can be really limited, and it's more likely that you'll go the entire match with less than a full team.

PS
I just want to reiterate that I'm not bashing @K3ntaaa or his video, and I think he does indeed have some valid points. In fact, I think it could potentially be pretty helpful to make various "Battlegrounds Tips" videos, or various build videos that are relevant to Battlegrounds and not just 1vX'ing bad players in CP-Cyrodiil (though getting said videos to the target audience may be tough). But when it comes to randoms vs the real tryharding premades, it's generally a lost cause.

Zer0oo

Positioning is very important but try to get a random solo que pug to move the right way is almost impossible unless they are really good players.

But players should learn that it is a team match and helping your team with off-heals is extremely important and may be easier to learn than good positioning. Look at their hp bar and throw in some heals if you see they are in trouble. Put hots up when you think there will be high inc damage.

DO NOT BE THE MAG SORC SPAMMING ENDLESS FURRY WHILE YOUR TEAMMATE NEEDS DESPREDLY NEEDS SOME HEALING WARD

Edit: I have nothing against fighting premades but only if each team has a fair chance to win.

K3ntaaa

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's certainly true that solo queued teams could potentially do much better than is typical if they'd change their build up a bit, and/or actually make better use of skills that are already on their bars (seriously, I almost never get hit with a friendly Vigor unless I just so happen to get near a teammate when they're trying to heal themselves). However, there are many premades that are still going to truck right over a solid group of randoms. Maybe those randoms manage to land some kills (at least on a third team that might not be very good), die a lot less, put up more impressive scoreboard damage/healing, etc...but if one team has better focus fire and is coordinating 3 simultaneous Dawnbreakers on a big engagement and the other team isn't, the more coordinated team is ultimately going to win.

I don't mean to sound negative, and I'm certainly not bashing your video or attempt to help people perform better in battlegrounds, but there's not much that solo queued players can do against a group of coordinated tryhards. Heck, I can have Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Ward, the heal over time from Nature's Embrace ("Spiderman" Vine heal/pull), and Living Trellis (vines that heal me every 1 second that I take damage) all going at the same time while spamming Harness Magicka and wearing 5 light/2 heavy, and still effortlessly get wrecked in just a few seconds from focus firing Stam builds. If my team isn't able to focus fire as well as the tryhards (and they won't be, since they're not on voice comms), we're going to lose.

Just how many of these tryhard teams there are, I can't say. But they're certainly not what I would call "rare" when your MMR is fairly high on PC-NA. It's especially bad when you run into them during off-hours, because your possible selection of teammates can be really limited, and it's more likely that you'll go the entire match with less than a full team.

PS
I just want to reiterate that I'm not bashing @K3ntaaa or his video, and I think he does indeed have some valid points. In fact, I think it could potentially be pretty helpful to make various "Battlegrounds Tips" videos, or various build videos that are relevant to Battlegrounds and not just 1vX'ing bad players in CP-Cyrodiil (though getting said videos to the target audience may be tough). But when it comes to randoms vs the real tryharding premades, it's generally a lost cause.

I know what you mean and thats a valid point that against actual good premades you will have a hard time and as a solo player you cant really do much.

But the reason I did the video or the guide is a guy that was blaming premades that we lost while he didnt play as a team at all. It was winable if they didnt have the solo player mentality. It wasnt the premades that won the game (in that case), but it was the builds / playstyle of my team that lost the game. So I want people to relize that you can win against (most of the) premades if the average solo player would focus more on teamplay.

K3ntaaa

Zer0oo wrote: »

Positioning is very important but try to get a random solo que pug to move the right way is almost impossible unless they are really good players.

But players should learn that it is a team match and helping your team with off-heals is extremely important and may be easier to learn than good positioning. Look at their hp bar and throw in some heals if you see they are in trouble. Put hots up when you think there will be high inc damage.

DO NOT BE THE MAG SORC SPAMMING ENDLESS FURRY WHILE YOUR TEAMMATE NEEDS DESPREDLY NEEDS SOME HEALING WARD

Edit: I have nothing against fighting premades but only if each team has a fair chance to win.

Yea exactly! Totally agree.

Support each other and you will definitely have a higher win rate over all.

Aurielle

K3ntaaa wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's certainly true that solo queued teams could potentially do much better than is typical if they'd change their build up a bit, and/or actually make better use of skills that are already on their bars (seriously, I almost never get hit with a friendly Vigor unless I just so happen to get near a teammate when they're trying to heal themselves). However, there are many premades that are still going to truck right over a solid group of randoms. Maybe those randoms manage to land some kills (at least on a third team that might not be very good), die a lot less, put up more impressive scoreboard damage/healing, etc...but if one team has better focus fire and is coordinating 3 simultaneous Dawnbreakers on a big engagement and the other team isn't, the more coordinated team is ultimately going to win.

I don't mean to sound negative, and I'm certainly not bashing your video or attempt to help people perform better in battlegrounds, but there's not much that solo queued players can do against a group of coordinated tryhards. Heck, I can have Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Major Ward, the heal over time from Nature's Embrace ("Spiderman" Vine heal/pull), and Living Trellis (vines that heal me every 1 second that I take damage) all going at the same time while spamming Harness Magicka and wearing 5 light/2 heavy, and still effortlessly get wrecked in just a few seconds from focus firing Stam builds. If my team isn't able to focus fire as well as the tryhards (and they won't be, since they're not on voice comms), we're going to lose.

Just how many of these tryhard teams there are, I can't say. But they're certainly not what I would call "rare" when your MMR is fairly high on PC-NA. It's especially bad when you run into them during off-hours, because your possible selection of teammates can be really limited, and it's more likely that you'll go the entire match with less than a full team.

PS
I just want to reiterate that I'm not bashing @K3ntaaa or his video, and I think he does indeed have some valid points. In fact, I think it could potentially be pretty helpful to make various "Battlegrounds Tips" videos, or various build videos that are relevant to Battlegrounds and not just 1vX'ing bad players in CP-Cyrodiil (though getting said videos to the target audience may be tough). But when it comes to randoms vs the real tryharding premades, it's generally a lost cause.

I know what you mean and thats a valid point that against actual good premades you will have a hard time and as a solo player you cant really do much.

But the reason I did the video or the guide is a guy that was blaming premades that we lost while he didnt play as a team at all. It was winable if they didnt have the solo player mentality. It wasnt the premades that won the game (in that case), but it was the builds / playstyle of my team that lost the game. So I want people to relize that you can win against (most of the) premades if the average solo player would focus more on teamplay.

Good luck convincing tryhard solo NB snipe spammers that they need to work as a team. I actually sigh when I see that I’m grouped with NBs... They almost always stealth out in the most obvious corners and die within seconds, then have some choice words for you when you encourage them to stick with the group.

Oberstein

add option for battleground matches to solo battle, party battle problem solved.

K3ntaaa

Oberstein wrote: »

add option for battleground matches to solo battle, party battle problem solved.

and get even longer queue times?

hanslanda

Zos please end this premade scourge, it's enough already, give bg's back to the normal folk. Just give those try hard Uber nerds their own bg's.

LaveniaRose

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

I know there is a difference between premades and good premades with no counter play. But how often do you face no conter play premades? In my last 100 deathmatches i queued solo i faced maybe 1 group that i was like "damn, MM is annyoing". 1/100.
I cant think that you face this kind of groups on a regular basis. I dont know your playstyle or the how the people play in high MMR on NA but I think you just face average premades but since you or /and your teammates (just assumption, i dont know how you play) dont know how to actually play against a more coordinated gorup.
I face premades on a regular basis aswell but the game is not over before it even starts because of the MM.

And I actually think the MM is quite good. Low MMR player and newbies get actually matched against each other. High MMR players play against tryhards and coordinated Groups. Its kinda working as intended.

I've been facing them ever since Murkmire launched. No joke. Groups running perfectly coordinated builds, usually with a healbot templar (often with Guard on the hardest hitter), a magDK or a magden providing roots and stuns, and two high burst DPS, often ranged. Most of the ones I've faced are running enchant builds with a hard hitting monster set like Skoria or Zaan's.

They are actually borderline impossible to fight, as the healbot basically makes the team unkillable, the magDK/magden makes it so you cannot kite, and the two DPS delete you within less than a second. Most of the time, the moment I enter combat, I'm already at half health because their damage is so damn high. Even with a dedicated healer on my team focusing me, usually in voice comms (I generally play with a friend or two), I still take a ridiculous amount of damage.

This never used to happen before Murkmire, as I remember prior to Murkmire I'd be able to play with that same healer, and we'd duo entire teams. And yet the moment Murkmire dropped, BGs have been completely unplayable, and more so unenjoyable, for me. I don't know whether it is the changes to match making they made, or whether it is the enchant meta enabling such ridiculous damage. Probably both. But Murkmire *** up my experience, and I am actually done with BGs until they do something about it.

MMR is "working as intended" (I'll get to why this is quotes in a second), but the problem is the population in no way makes an advanced match making system effective. The simple truth of the matter is, very few people play PVP in ESO, let alone BGs. Because of this, while lower MMR brackets are likely full of different players, the top brackets (of which I'm seemingly in, but I can't tell for sure since MMR isn't exposed) only have maybe a dozen to two dozen players. Why do you think that newer players/characters have queues that pop instantly, while older players/characters who have seen thousands of matches can take anywhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours for a match?

There just isn't enough players at the top MMR brackets to support an advanced match making system like this, which not only makes it completely redundant at the top brackets, but it acts as a huge hindrance to players. My own experience, matching against premades over and over and over and over and over, pales in comparison to other players who actually do wait hours for a match. At this point, you could completely scrap MMR, and while the experience might get a bit worse for players at the bottom, since they're more likely to be matched against more skilled players, the experience will get hugely better for those at the top.

And the reason why I say "working as intended" in quotes is because if our best guess at how the MMR system works is correct (we can't know for sure, since only Zenimax knows how MMR is calculated), the MMR system is completely trash. The tl;dr of how we think the MMR system works is it basically takes the sum of all your medal scores from all of your matches, and it uses that to somehow calculate your MMR.

If this is correct, this means that MMR not only takes into account how good you are (since better players, in theory, tend to have higher medal scores per match), but how many matches you've played (more matches = higher medal score sum = higher MMR). Not only does this mean that *** players can be matched against great players, if the *** player has played many matches, but it also means that MMR can never decrease, and it never balances out. You will never consistently be matched against players with equal skill to you, though you will consistently be gradually matched against players with more skill.

This is probably why I'm constantly getting matched against premades. Since I've played a lot of games (everything I've said is in relation to my main character for PVP), my MMR is probably quite high, and prior to Murkmire I likely got into fairly balanced matches. Of course, I got the odd *** match, but the few matches after were generally fine.

They changed something in Murkmire, though, to help reduce queue times (whether it actually helped or not is another matter, as I've heard conflicting results). My guess is they made match making more lenient, allowing me to match against higher MMR players quicker (in theory I should also match against lower MMR players quicker, too, though my guess is I'm closer to the higher bracket than the lower bracket, and so the higher is the quicker one to match against). What supports my guess is I keep seeing largely the same teams, even on separate days.

Now, yes, I could just swallow the fact that I will now always match against premades, but, as I said in another thread, I'm not a masochist. I find absolutely zero joy in being shredded by the same team, with no opportunity to play offensively, or even defend myself. Playing these sort of matches back-to-back sucks the fun out of the game for me, so I've decided to simply stop doing BGs until something is changed, though as a result I've found I find less enjoyment in the game in general, and so find it hard to log in past my dailies. Whatever Murkmire has done, it has basically killed the game for me.

If the enchant changes come on Monday, I'll try a BG or two to see if they were playing a part, and if so how bad they are post-adjustment, but until then, I'm done with BGs.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant. Didn't intend on it being this long, but I just needed to get my feelings out there. It sucks to see something you used to enjoy doing with friends turn into complete trash. I actually feel like just logging in, doing my dailies, then logging out and doing something else, until this *** is sorted.

I'm not convinced removing the MMR would help anything. I'd like to see how the battlegrounds population changes with different patches and different ways of calculating MMR. I think the lack of forums threads about low MMR teams getting stomped on as well as premades being able to get a match means the current could be working well. Sure, there's a couple people that are at an awkward spot on the scale. But long-term it makes sense to gear the MMR towards new players to increase the population.

Aixy

hmmmm okey..... but u are playing a "Pay to Win" class too (Wardens so unbalanced).................

NupidStoob

K3ntaaa wrote: »

Oberstein wrote: »

add option for battleground matches to solo battle, party battle problem solved.

and get even longer queue times?

Whats the difference between queuing a few minute longer or be forced to play games where the results are determined the moment you get in? Add that to the fact that not being able to queue afterwards again because you will in all likelihood run into the same 4 man team again. There is way more time "wasted" on the current system.

You also forgot two more options:

1. Simply leave the game when there is a 4 man team you know and your group isn't playing together to a level where you can do something.
2. Play magsorc and steal all the kills from the premade team. Run as soon as they just look at you.

jcm2606

LaveniaRose wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

K3ntaaa wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Or, y'know, Zenimax can just solve the actual issue, rather than forcing players to work around it. Either put premades on their own queue, or just get rid of MMR and reintroduce random matching to reduce the likelihood of getting premades back-to-back.

At this point, I'm not even bothering to do BGs, because every match over the past few days has been premades. Every. Match.

BG's are actually quite fun and enjoyable even if you face premades but only if your own team knows how to play as a team.

But like I said above we can blame ZOS for matching premades vs solo (but i doubt they will change anything in the near future) and get frustrated because they ignore us or people learn how to play as a team and have a better chance at playing against premades and make it less frustrating getting matched against premades.

A team playing as a team doesn't help against a premade who're running perfectly coordinated builds and a healer who knows what they're doing. Especially in the current meta. Even with a dedicated healer focusing you, the might of a full premade can literally delete you within less than a second the moment you dare harm their own healer. Had it happen to me several times. Maybe with enchants being addressed, damage will be brought back in line, but we'll see.

Having premades only being able to queue against other premades, and solo players only able to queue against other solo players won't help, as the population in BGs just isn't high enough to facilitate something like this, especially at the top MMR brackets. There are so few players at the top MMR brackets, that you can queue a dozen times in a row, and end up against more or less the same players, a dozen times in a row.

The only real fix is to just remove MMR. Replace it with the completely random matching BGs used to have on launch with Morrowind. Not only will it make my experience better, as I won't be matched against the same damn premade multiple times in a row, but it also improves queue times, as there is no fancy match making system. MMR is an experiment that failed spectacularly, and it is about damn time that it was put out of its misery.

I know there is a difference between premades and good premades with no counter play. But how often do you face no conter play premades? In my last 100 deathmatches i queued solo i faced maybe 1 group that i was like "damn, MM is annyoing". 1/100.
I cant think that you face this kind of groups on a regular basis. I dont know your playstyle or the how the people play in high MMR on NA but I think you just face average premades but since you or /and your teammates (just assumption, i dont know how you play) dont know how to actually play against a more coordinated gorup.
I face premades on a regular basis aswell but the game is not over before it even starts because of the MM.

And I actually think the MM is quite good. Low MMR player and newbies get actually matched against each other. High MMR players play against tryhards and coordinated Groups. Its kinda working as intended.

I've been facing them ever since Murkmire launched. No joke. Groups running perfectly coordinated builds, usually with a healbot templar (often with Guard on the hardest hitter), a magDK or a magden providing roots and stuns, and two high burst DPS, often ranged. Most of the ones I've faced are running enchant builds with a hard hitting monster set like Skoria or Zaan's.

They are actually borderline impossible to fight, as the healbot basically makes the team unkillable, the magDK/magden makes it so you cannot kite, and the two DPS delete you within less than a second. Most of the time, the moment I enter combat, I'm already at half health because their damage is so damn high. Even with a dedicated healer on my team focusing me, usually in voice comms (I generally play with a friend or two), I still take a ridiculous amount of damage.

This never used to happen before Murkmire, as I remember prior to Murkmire I'd be able to play with that same healer, and we'd duo entire teams. And yet the moment Murkmire dropped, BGs have been completely unplayable, and more so unenjoyable, for me. I don't know whether it is the changes to match making they made, or whether it is the enchant meta enabling such ridiculous damage. Probably both. But Murkmire *** up my experience, and I am actually done with BGs until they do something about it.

MMR is "working as intended" (I'll get to why this is quotes in a second), but the problem is the population in no way makes an advanced match making system effective. The simple truth of the matter is, very few people play PVP in ESO, let alone BGs. Because of this, while lower MMR brackets are likely full of different players, the top brackets (of which I'm seemingly in, but I can't tell for sure since MMR isn't exposed) only have maybe a dozen to two dozen players. Why do you think that newer players/characters have queues that pop instantly, while older players/characters who have seen thousands of matches can take anywhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours for a match?

There just isn't enough players at the top MMR brackets to support an advanced match making system like this, which not only makes it completely redundant at the top brackets, but it acts as a huge hindrance to players. My own experience, matching against premades over and over and over and over and over, pales in comparison to other players who actually do wait hours for a match. At this point, you could completely scrap MMR, and while the experience might get a bit worse for players at the bottom, since they're more likely to be matched against more skilled players, the experience will get hugely better for those at the top.

And the reason why I say "working as intended" in quotes is because if our best guess at how the MMR system works is correct (we can't know for sure, since only Zenimax knows how MMR is calculated), the MMR system is completely trash. The tl;dr of how we think the MMR system works is it basically takes the sum of all your medal scores from all of your matches, and it uses that to somehow calculate your MMR.

If this is correct, this means that MMR not only takes into account how good you are (since better players, in theory, tend to have higher medal scores per match), but how many matches you've played (more matches = higher medal score sum = higher MMR). Not only does this mean that *** players can be matched against great players, if the *** player has played many matches, but it also means that MMR can never decrease, and it never balances out. You will never consistently be matched against players with equal skill to you, though you will consistently be gradually matched against players with more skill.

This is probably why I'm constantly getting matched against premades. Since I've played a lot of games (everything I've said is in relation to my main character for PVP), my MMR is probably quite high, and prior to Murkmire I likely got into fairly balanced matches. Of course, I got the odd *** match, but the few matches after were generally fine.

They changed something in Murkmire, though, to help reduce queue times (whether it actually helped or not is another matter, as I've heard conflicting results). My guess is they made match making more lenient, allowing me to match against higher MMR players quicker (in theory I should also match against lower MMR players quicker, too, though my guess is I'm closer to the higher bracket than the lower bracket, and so the higher is the quicker one to match against). What supports my guess is I keep seeing largely the same teams, even on separate days.

Now, yes, I could just swallow the fact that I will now always match against premades, but, as I said in another thread, I'm not a masochist. I find absolutely zero joy in being shredded by the same team, with no opportunity to play offensively, or even defend myself. Playing these sort of matches back-to-back sucks the fun out of the game for me, so I've decided to simply stop doing BGs until something is changed, though as a result I've found I find less enjoyment in the game in general, and so find it hard to log in past my dailies. Whatever Murkmire has done, it has basically killed the game for me.

If the enchant changes come on Monday, I'll try a BG or two to see if they were playing a part, and if so how bad they are post-adjustment, but until then, I'm done with BGs.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant. Didn't intend on it being this long, but I just needed to get my feelings out there. It sucks to see something you used to enjoy doing with friends turn into complete trash. I actually feel like just logging in, doing my dailies, then logging out and doing something else, until this *** is sorted.

I'm not convinced removing the MMR would help anything. I'd like to see how the battlegrounds population changes with different patches and different ways of calculating MMR. I think the lack of forums threads about low MMR teams getting stomped on as well as premades being able to get a match means the current could be working well. Sure, there's a couple people that are at an awkward spot on the scale. But long-term it makes sense to gear the MMR towards new players to increase the population.

At the detriment of those at or near the top? So we should let those players have abysmal experiences, just to let those at the bottom have great experiences? Can't say I agree.

This never happens in any other online PVP game, even if the MMR is as bad as ESO's. Know why? Because those games easily have 10x the players as ESO, and can support an advanced match making system. Even if you're at the top, there are at least a hundred or so players at the top with you, allowing not only fast queuing, but truly balanced matching. At least.

It is common knowledge that PVP in ESO isn't very popular, and the size of the PVP community is barely a fraction of what it used to be. Unfortunately, there is probably so few players that advanced match making simply doesn't work smoothly. For all we know, Zenimax could hype the *** out of BGs with the current MMR system, have a sudden influx of players, and within a few weeks all these problems just go away. The problems we're seeing may not be MMR being a *** system (though, it is), rather it may just be too few players in the queue to support MMR.

If that is the case, I honestly think removing MMR is a fair move. While removing MMR will make the experience (arguably) worse for a majority of the queue, it will vastly improve the experience for the rest. I think that is a price worth paying, for actually playable BGs.