We should only use 1 plating to upgrade jewelry (for all rarities)

John_Falstaff

@tmbrinks , I think we're speaking about different things. I'm proposing to increase the number of grains (or even a plating) obtained from deconstructing gold jewelry, not from refining dust. That way amount of platings coming from farming would stay the same, but amount of platings coming from deconstructing jewelry obtained from vet trials would increase.

tmbrinks

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@tmbrinks , I think we're speaking about different things. I'm proposing to increase the number of grains (or even a plating) obtained from deconstructing gold jewelry, not from refining dust. That way amount of platings coming from farming would stay the same, but amount of platings coming from deconstructing jewelry obtained from vet trials would increase.

Ah, I see what you mean. That could be used to bring down the cost of the items, as well as help out with the bottleneck of purple platings/grains, since those no longer drop from doing writs. I feel like they couldn't do much more than double the drop rate (so, if right now it's 0.5 grains/piece on average, 50% of the time you get one, 50% of the time you don't get one), going to anything more than 1.0 grains/piece on average would be detrimental. So maybe it's 25% of the time you get 0, 50% of the time you get 1, and 25% of the time you get 2 grains from deconning (with max passives, of course)

I haven't deconned enough gold gear to determine the ratios, I'm sure somebody has, I've gotten most of my gold grains from doing writs, which I wish would drop green/blue/purple grains as well (even if I had to take a slight reduction to the gold grains i got)

John_Falstaff

@tmbrinks , I don't have accurate statistics, but from experience - I've been deconstructing most gold jewelry from vet runs in cases I didn't give it away to those looking for those pieces - the probability of getting a grain from deconstructing is around 0.5, or so it feels.

I know that some fine tuning would be needed to keep Golden relevant, yes; I'm looking at it from the point of giving people incentive to run endgame content (since that seems to be the greatest concern about making gold jewelry easily available). Right now, after people got their last VO or AY gold piece, they're looking at just 10-15k gold from the run. If someone hunts for VO gold piece, they have 25% probability of getting it (in non-HM run), but to gold out a BSW piece, they'd have to make 80 such runs on average. So right now, gold jewelry is hardly any incentive as a loot for vet trial run as soon as the player is stocked up on actually useful drops from there.

Benemime

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

tmbrinks

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

Benemime

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

my point is still valid, it remains the same

tmbrinks

Benemime wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

my point is still valid, it remains the same

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

ZonasArch

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

my point is still valid, it remains the same

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

Some people just don't think about gold sink as a thing, or if they do, they may not realize just how relevant it is, and why the game keeps them around everywhere. Destroying currency is just as important as being able to make it, real life economy shows (as in not creating too much of a surplus).

Also, as a side bonus, the whole system being so aggressively hard created a really big payout for Crafters. Not too bad to have a game benefit Crafters even on high end game. I loved it.

Benemime

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

my point is still valid, it remains the same

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

I don't think the economy/inflation in the game is very dependent of the golden seller. Players don't spend gold there like crazy, very few players does that since the golen seller is very random with gear, I only bought 4 golden pieces from there since I started playing like 4 years ago, never bought a monster piece either (well, maybe I'll buy one this weekend? Who knows, rng) I don't consider it a solid gold sink that is holding the inflation of the game, I think we might spend a lot more with furnishing and outfit station (and we didn't have furnishing NPCs and outfit station patchs ago - and the economy was fine back then). I agree with the guild trader being a solid gold sink.
Plus, decreasing to 3 platings won't break the golden seller. Maybe the golden seller should start selling platings as well with AP then? That would be a good solid gold sink where I could spend my AP on.

tmbrinks

Benemime wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

drop from 4 to 3 then. It's not really fair comparing to the golden seller since we can buy the golden jewelry with AP that costs "nothing". Also, on Xbox each golden plating costs 90k~100k, not everyone plays on PC. we might consider dropping the price of necklace from the golden seller if that's the problem to match rings, doesn't really matter if it's a ring or necklace it should cost the same lol

I can make 250k gold doing writs, in significantly less time than I can make 500k AP in pvp. I don't pvp much, I'm sure the pvp "pros" can make the 500k AP faster. Gold costs "nothing' either, it's just time and effort in both cases.

my point is still valid, it remains the same

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

I don't think the economy/inflation in the game is very dependent of the golden seller. Players don't spend gold there like crazy, very few players does that since the golen seller is very random with gear, I only bought 4 golden pieces from there since I started playing like 4 years ago, never bought a monster piece either (well, maybe I'll buy one this weekend? Who knows, rng) I don't consider it a solid gold sink that is holding the inflation of the game, I think we might spend a lot more with furnishing and outfit station (and we didn't have furnishing NPCs and outfit station patchs ago - and the economy was fine back then). I agree with the guild trader being a solid gold sink.
Plus, decreasing to 3 platings won't break the golden seller. Maybe the golden seller should start selling platings as well with AP then? That would be a good solid gold sink where I could spend my AP on.

simply allowing people to buy them directly with AP would probably solve a lot of the issues with the supply. particularly if they sold all levels of platings/grains with them. That's not a bad idea (but still keep it at 4, IMO)

Ramber

i dont even know how to explain how silly(being nice) it is to improve jewelry... IT MIGHT AS WELL NOT BE A THING...

I make armor for people in my guild all the time and the only thing i have to ask them for is green and blue (forget purple or gold) jewelry mats, when making them armor sets. Seriously, having gold or purple crafted jewelry isn't even a thing for the vast majority of the people that play the game due to cost and not even being able to find them if you do have the gold.

Feric51

tmbrinks wrote: »

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

First off, I don't disagree that the golden vendor is a much needed gold sink. My problem is that the golden is only a mediocre gold sink, at best. The RNG of what is offered makes it virtually non-existent some weeks when there's nothing anyone in there actively uses in game (just read the Friday evening forums posts about how many people are "saving money" until next week). Also, how many gold jewelry pieces do most people really need?

What I mean by that is: I'm on console, which lacks varying QoL addons that probably make my strategy even easier on PC, but I still only buy one set of gold rings and/or a necklace per account. If a character has a gear set up with, say, gold War Maiden jewelry, and I want to wear War Maiden on a second magicka character, I will just pull up my personal banker, unequip the jewelry off character A, bank it, log in to Character B, summon said assistant, withdrawal and equip jewelry on Character B. You can only play one character at a time, and the minor inconvenience of swapping saves me 450k-750k gold and probably takes less time that the loadscreen into Wayrest. Sure, some people rolling in dough may buy a set for every character that requires it, but that seems silly to me.


To your second point about AP needing a sink, the golden merchant does work the same way for AP as for gold, so there's that. But beyond that, the fact that you can use AP to buy siege, forward camps, wall/door repair kits, etc is another, IMO viable, AP sink because those items are disposables/consumables. Going back to the golden... once you buy a ring/necklace, it's permanent and won't leave your account. All the siege stuff has a finite life that is shortened in direct proportion to how much PvP (and presumably AP earned) you do. Outside of that, I don't PvP so there may be other AP sinks that I'm not aware of. I'm just saying, there are AP sinks in the game.


Also, ZOS if you're listening... want to make the golden a more effective gold sink and watch the coffers empty? Add all non-trial jewelry to the golden merchant on a permanent basis at current gold/AP cost. Then rotate trial jewelry through the standard RNG circuit we're used to to, just restrict it to one full set per week (ie VO set only, but both rings and necklace) and set the cost at 500k gold per ring, and 1mil per necklace (1mil/2mil AP).



Edit: Spelling

Gargath

The overall cost of crafting materials needed to make a jewellery should be +/- comparable with average cost of jewellery available in guild traders. A logical thought to me. Make it even 2x more expensive if you need, to make it special.
But if a gold ring/necklace cost 100k gold average on the market, why you need to pay 1 milion for the mats to make it on your own. It's illogical. It was badly designed since the beginning when the system was announced and first timers started to yell about how expensive it is to craft anything.

To me the whole jewellery crafting system was unreliable, if it follows a rule that trials' gold jewellery drop is always on top of all rewards. A reason why I didn't buy the expansion. I was already cheated once by the "Morag Tong converter". I have learnt that when ZOS tells me that something "works as intended" it definitely doesn't work as intended or the intentions of creators are unclear. The converter didn't work on 85% of useful items and was completely useless, now the jewellery crafting is rather an addition to trial rewards for elites, not the typical average crafters. It's all wrong and I'll never buy a damaged product again.

tmbrinks

Gargath wrote: »

The overall cost of crafting materials needed to make a jewellery should be +/- comparable with average cost of jewellery available in guild traders. A logical thought to me. Make it even 2x more expensive if you need, to make it special.
But if a gold ring/necklace cost 100k gold average on the market, why you need to pay 1 milion for the mats to make it on your own. It's illogical. It was badly designed since the beginning when the system was announced and first timers started to yell about how expensive it is to craft anything.

To me the whole jewellery crafting system was unreliable, if it follows a rule that trials' gold jewellery drop is always on top of all rewards. A reason why I didn't buy the expansion. I was already cheated once by the "Morag Tong converter". I have learnt that when ZOS tells me that something "works as intended" it definitely doesn't work as intended or the intentions of creators are unclear. The converter didn't work on 85% of useful items and was completely useless, now the jewellery crafting is rather an addition to trial rewards for elites, not the typical average crafters. It's all wrong and I'll never buy a damaged product again.

Trials raiding, is not profitable. especially if you are doing any sort of progression. You can do 2 or 3 months of progression in vCR +3, and if you don't clear, you get nothing. But you needed to upgrade gear, buy potions/plants, etc. The fact that the gold rings can potentially be deconned and maybe give you a grain, does not justify the cost. Trust me, end game raiders, don't raid because it's profitable, they raid because they enjoy it. Yes, a good group could run through vAA and "farm" gold rings/necks to decon, but I've found a majority of them don't want to do that.

I don't even remember how long ago it was (pre 1-T? maybe?) you could sell the gold rings and gear from trials, it wasn't BoP, it was all BoE. That's when there was profit in raiding, since even completing vAA/vSO/vHRC back then was like being able to do the vet DLC trials today. They took that away. You could sell a Gold Vicious Ophidian Ring back in the day for 300k +, sharp VO swords were well over 1 million. (this was before trait change too). They took away the selling, and made everything BoP. Then a year later, we were able to trade in our groups, that was a dark time for raiding, when we couldnt' sell, and couldn't trade. I don't think the 8 plunder and 2 chances at a grain, at 50%, (so about 15k on average) make it the same thing, and this doesn't make it all that much of a trial reward for the elites.

tmbrinks

Feric51 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I disagree. The golden vendor is needed as a gold sink, without it, the economy of the game could collapse. It helps control the inflation in the game by providing a way for gold to leave the game (in the same way the guild trader bidding system and the 3.5% that is "lost" for every transaction in the guild stores both do) The AP in the game needs to leave as well, for the same reasons.

First off, I don't disagree that the golden vendor is a much needed gold sink. My problem is that the golden is only a mediocre gold sink, at best. The RNG of what is offered makes it virtually non-existent some weeks when there's nothing anyone in there actively uses in game (just read the Friday evening forums posts about how many people are "saving money" until next week). Also, how many gold jewelry pieces do most people really need?

What I mean by that is: I'm on console, which lacks varying QoL addons that probably make my strategy even easier on PC, but I still only buy one set of gold rings and/or a necklace per account. If a character has a gear set up with, say, gold War Maiden jewelry, and I want to wear War Maiden on a second magicka character, I will just pull up my personal banker, unequip the jewelry off character A, bank it, log in to Character B, summon said assistant, withdrawal and equip jewelry on Character B. You can only play one character at a time, and the minor inconvenience of swapping saves me 450k-750k gold and probably takes less time that the loadscreen into Wayrest. Sure, some people rolling in dough may buy a set for every character that requires it, but that seems silly to me.


To your second point about AP needing a sink, the golden merchant does work the same way for AP as for gold, so there's that. But beyond that, the fact that you can use AP to buy siege, forward camps, wall/door repair kits, etc is another, IMO viable, AP sink because those items are disposables/consumables. Going back to the golden... once you buy a ring/necklace, it's permanent and won't leave your account. All the siege stuff has a finite life that is shortened in direct proportion to how much PvP (and presumably AP earned) you do. Outside of that, I don't PvP so there may be other AP sinks that I'm not aware of. I'm just saying, there are AP sinks in the game.


Also, ZOS if you're listening... want to make the golden a more effective gold sink and watch the coffers empty? Add all non-trial jewelry to the golden merchant on a permanent basis at current gold/AP cost. Then rotate trial jewelry through the standard RNG circuit we're used to to, just restrict it to one full set per week (ie VO set only, but both rings and necklace) and set the cost at 500k gold per ring, and 1mil per necklace (1mil/2mil AP).



Edit: Spelling

I agree it's not the biggest gold sink in the game, but it is one, one that could be needed. I think if they'd want to go to offering all the rings/necks all the time, they should raise the price (since you no longer need to play the RNG game to get what you're looking for)

Also, I main a healer, so there were many times that I would like to upgrade my jewelry while running Worm or SPC (before jewelry update, before Olorime). A gold Worm Neck, when it was in the golden, increase my magicka by 6, spell damage by 1, and magicka regen by 1. No change to 5pc bonus (still 4%). To say that's a minuscule update is an understatement. Point is, you don't NEED gold jewelry to be successful. (Now, with SPC, it affects the 5pc bonus, so that would be much better to have that as gold, as it would buff the entire group). Did I buy the worm neck when it came out, yes. I run end-game trials, and I spend a lot of time crafting, so I have the gold to do it. I put in the work and effort, so that even that minuscule change was worth me spending the gold. Is it for everybody? No. Does it need to be for everybody? No. The only thing that really "needs" to be golded out to do well are your weapons. And tempers have plummeted in price since jewelry crafting has been introduced, due to the farming of blacksmithing nodes (since they are shared), they've dropped almost 50% over the past 6 months (on PC/NA). I'd venture that your AVERAGE player, who runs purple equipment, and gold weapons (being able to complete literally anything in the game in that setup) has actually SAVED money due to jewelry crafting, with the reduction in price for tempers.

I have not bought multiple sets at the golden for my multiple healers (I have 3). I will use purple on the alternate ones (or gold if they're trial drops, such as Olorime), I gold out the gear, since I have the mats sitting in my craft bag from doing writs. But I will exchange gear between them based on which one is doing the most "end-game" content at that time.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Does deconstructing a gold jewelry bought from Golden Vendor give you a Chromium plate or a Chromium grain??

tmbrinks

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Does deconstructing a gold jewelry bought from Golden Vendor give you a Chromium plate or a Chromium grain??

same as any other gold jewelry, a chance at a grain (about 50/50 with max passives, from anecdotal evidence)

Joosef_Kivikilpi

tmbrinks wrote: »

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Does deconstructing a gold jewelry bought from Golden Vendor give you a Chromium plate or a Chromium grain??

same as any other gold jewelry, a chance at a grain (about 50/50 with max passives, from anecdotal evidence)

Yeah NOPE. Still going to wait patiently for the Golden to drop Undaunted Infiltrator Rings then haha if they ever do 2 years in waiting.

mnemoniclights

Turelus wrote: »

I think it being hard/expensive is intended. They stated they didn't want to devalue the gold drops from trials/vendor by making upgrades easy.

See, this I hate. By this logic all upgrading should be hard because it devalues gear dropped from trials/gold vendor. I can easily get a chokethorn helm and shoulders and upgrade them with my literal hundreds of gold upgrade. This just feels like they didn't think it through and don't want to change it.

Taleof2Cities

mnemoniclights wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I think it being hard/expensive is intended. They stated they didn't want to devalue the gold drops from trials/vendor by making upgrades easy.

See, this I hate. By this logic all upgrading should be hard because it devalues gear dropped from trials/gold vendor. I can easily get a chokethorn helm and shoulders and upgrade them with my literal hundreds of gold upgrade. This just feels like they didn't think it through and don't want to change it.

Your example isn’t very good because vet dungeons aren’t end game content. Any semi-competent 4-man group can run Elden Hollow I for Chokethorn.

However, when you get to Vet Trials, PvP Leaderboards, or the Arenas, now you’re talking end game ... where ZOS really wants to make sure you’re running the content to obtain those types of rewards.

Don’t want to run those types of content?

That’s OK too.

Because the difference between purple and gold quality jewelry is negligible. For example, the tooltip on a Magicka Recovery enchantment between purple and gold is only 15 recovery at CP160.

A lot of players think they need gold jewelry when they’re not running the types of content that would warrant having it.

tmbrinks

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

mnemoniclights wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I think it being hard/expensive is intended. They stated they didn't want to devalue the gold drops from trials/vendor by making upgrades easy.

See, this I hate. By this logic all upgrading should be hard because it devalues gear dropped from trials/gold vendor. I can easily get a chokethorn helm and shoulders and upgrade them with my literal hundreds of gold upgrade. This just feels like they didn't think it through and don't want to change it.

Your example isn’t very good because vet dungeons aren’t end game content. Any semi-competent 4-man group can run Elden Hollow I for Chokethorn.

However, when you get to Vet Trials, PvP Leaderboards, or the Arenas, now you’re talking end game ... where ZOS really wants to make sure you’re running the content to obtain those types of rewards.

Don’t want to run those types of content?

That’s OK too.

Because the difference between purple and gold quality jewelry is negligible. For example, the tooltip on a Magicka Recovery enchantment between purple and gold is only 15 recovery at CP160.

A lot of players think they need gold jewelry when they’re not running the types of content that would warrant having it.

This, is the crux of the entire matter with JC.