So, about Sorcerer...

Saphayla

There's been all this talk about Magicka Sorcerers being ruined in Murkmire, and I've been wondering; what level of play are we talking about here? Are they just not as good as other classes but they're still capable of doing most types of content, or are they just complete junk that's not even remotely viable for any type of content? I'm wondering, because I'm in the process of leveling up a Sorcerer whom I intended to be a Magicka DD...

jypcy

From a pve perspective, they’re still completely viable. Can’t speak from PvP perspective on them.

VaranisArano

If you weren't reliant on damage shields to survive, you should be okay. If you were, you might have some trouble.

UPrime

I use power serge with crit dots for healing. I use shield only if I mess up and get smacked hard to prevent 2 shots. I've been playing like that all along. It just seemed wrong to span shield all the time. I tend to avoid obviously OP things that will get nerfed. Maybe I'm not the most meta, but my build and play style is stable.

SirAndy

Saphayla wrote: »

... whom I intended to be a Magicka DD...

A lot of Mag Sorcs maximized their builds for DPS using shields so they could use their CP/Enchants/Gear/Whatever towards DPS. They ran low base resistances and relatively low base health and let the shields do the most of the damage mitigation.

Those builds have been gutted by the changes ...

Minalan

Respec most bastion CP into defense.
Wear a few tri-glyph pieces for health, impen on armor.
Spec into some protective jewels.
Done.

This is not the end of the Sorc PvP world, but its unplayable right now mostly due to the broken enchant mechanics. Someone else can give you those details.

Darkenarlol

Worst sustain, mediocre at best dps, with all skills related to pvp been nerfed several times...

If you are stubborn or like sorcs because of RP then it is no problem

If you are looking for some competitive content in the future...then literally all mag classes (imo except

maybe mdk, but he is kinda buffed now in pvp) can perform better.

Nerfmire is not best time to start a sorc :-)

Ragnarock41

Most magsorcs still try to face tank melee builds alone and die a much quicker death. ( no more half hour face tanking sessions)

Some of them adapted though, and streak seems like a really stronk kite tool now.

Kikke

SirAndy wrote: »

Saphayla wrote: »

... whom I intended to be a Magicka DD...

A lot of Mag Sorcs maximized their builds for DPS using shields so they could use their CP/Enchants/Gear/Whatever towards DPS. They ran low base resistances and relatively low base health and let the shields do the most of the damage mitigation.

Those builds have been gutted by the changes ...

PvE: All classes stam and mag does this...

PvP: This is a lie, the only class that can build pure glass cannon is nightblades. A sorc running pure dmg in cyrodil would be easy to kill as no sustain = dead sorc.

Saphayla

A lot of the responses seem to focus about PvP. I don't particularly care about PvP, as I think it's a toxic crowd that's far too competitive for relaxed, fun gameplay, but that's besides the point.

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

Feanor

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Most magsorcs still try to face tank melee builds alone and die a much quicker death. ( no more half hour face tanking sessions)

Some of them adapted though, and streak seems like a really stronk kite tool now.

Half hour tanking sessions were already the outlier even before Update 20 and a sure sign that Sorc was facing fruits of the earth.

As for Streak, it’s still the same skill as before. The Speedy Gonzales era may be over, but people will start using gap closers again soon. It’s not a strong kiting tool unless you build for 4k mag Regen.

Kikke

Saphayla wrote: »

A lot of the responses seem to focus about PvP. I don't particularly care about PvP, as I think it's a toxic crowd that's far too competitive for relaxed, fun gameplay, but that's besides the point.

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

We are just nearly above mag wardens. DK, nightblade and templar is above us. And keep in mind, we are supposed to be a pure DPS class.

And if PvE is your focus, how is it fair that mags have to build for defence when stamina does not?

Saphayla

kikkehs wrote: »

And if PvE is your focus, how is it fair that mags have to build for defence when stamina does not?

The only Stamina character I've ever had got to level 50, did a single Veteran Dungeon and was never touched again, so I can't say much on the topic. What's good about the "fair/not fair" discussion in PvE is that you don't have to worry about enemies exploiting bugs or using overpowered classes or whatever, so by choosing a class that "sucks" you're only gimping yourself and your team, which in most cases leads to more entertaining fights as not everything dies in 2 seconds.

jypcy

kikkehs wrote: »

Saphayla wrote: »

A lot of the responses seem to focus about PvP. I don't particularly care about PvP, as I think it's a toxic crowd that's far too competitive for relaxed, fun gameplay, but that's besides the point.

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

We are just nearly above mag wardens. DK, nightblade and templar is above us. And keep in mind, we are supposed to be a pure DPS class.

And if PvE is your focus, how is it fair that mags have to build for defence when stamina does not?

With respect to group content, that depends on how much you trust your healer. When running trials or dungeons, my stam friends tend to still have some healing or defensive skill on their bar, just like magicka would slot shield. If you don’t feel the need to be self reliant, you can take the shield off, just like stam would take their defensive skill off.

qbit

I was doing Summerset world bosses in pickup groups the night before last. It’s the only experience I’ve had so far. I almost died a few times. Got very low on health. The shield was quite noticeably weaker. But. Was still able to spam shield and survive until I got a heal. Which was a self heal from shooting crystal frags and the passive that heals on cast of dark magic ability.

So it’s probably fine. Can’t speak to PvP or trials or even vet content.

RebornV3x

From what I've seen on the PvE scene is people are more wary about letting mag sorcs into there trial group since most people seem to think Nightblades are the best dps and now with nerfed shields your more of a liability in score runs as far as PvP just don't do it on a mag sorc

SirLeeMinion

Saphayla wrote: »

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

I was openly critical of the shield and pet changes during the PTS phase. This is an alt account, but I have one max CP mag pet sorc and another at 450+ CP. What I've found on live since patch is that I can still solo some world bosses and easily run public dungeons and Craglorn group delves solo. Pets die sometimes. I can run normal Maelstrom arena without even trying - pets die regularly. Though I have VMA clears on mag-blade and pet sorc, I haven't even considered trying vet Maelstrom with shield nerf. I was laughed at (in a good-natured way?) for bringing a pet sorc to a normal trial. Pets needed to be re-summoned a few times (what?! not sure what happened there). I did a bit over 14.7% of total DPS on the 4+ minutes spent on the last boss. I had never run the trial before, but it was also a PUG group, so it is likely many others were inexperienced as well.

My overall impression is that pet-sorc is a viable, if lower DPS, option in most situations. It has become harder to run difficult solo content (shield nerf, loss of pet taunt, squishy pet bug); I now have sustain issues due to over-spamming heals since I no longer run shields. It is likely not a great option for high-end content.

For comparison, I'd consider myself a mid-tier player with ping that averages maybe 200 ms and mid-tier gear (necro + julianos + illambris, purple gear except for monster and weapons). I generally parse about 27K dps on test dummy and around 15K when soloing harder content. YMMV.

deLioncourt

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

Saphayla wrote: »

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

I was openly critical of the shield and pet changes during the PTS phase. This is an alt account, but I have one max CP mag pet sorc and another at 450+ CP. What I've found on live since patch is that I can still solo some world bosses and easily run public dungeons and Craglorn group delves solo. Pets die sometimes. I can run normal Maelstrom arena without even trying - pets die regularly. Though I have VMA clears on mag-blade and pet sorc, I haven't even considered trying vet Maelstrom with shield nerf. I was laughed at (in a good-natured way?) for bringing a pet sorc to a normal trial. Pets needed to be re-summoned a few times (what?! not sure what happened there). I did a bit over 14.7% of total DPS on the 4+ minutes spent on the last boss. I had never run the trial before, but it was also a PUG group, so it is likely many others were inexperienced as well.

My overall impression is that pet-sorc is a viable, if lower DPS, option in most situations. It has become harder to run difficult solo content (shield nerf, loss of pet taunt, squishy pet bug); I now have sustain issues due to over-spamming heals since I no longer run shields. It is likely not a great option for high-end content.

For comparison, I'd consider myself a mid-tier player with ping that averages maybe 200 ms and mid-tier gear (necro + julianos + illambris, purple gear except for monster and weapons). I generally parse about 27K dps on test dummy and around 15K when soloing harder content. YMMV.

"bringing a pet sorc to a normal trial. Pets needed to be re-summoned a few times (what?! not sure what happened there)."

Pets aren't supposed to die in group areas now. But they still are. They also have a resistance bug, so they're turned into squishy mc-dead-face within seconds.

SirAndy

kikkehs wrote: »

PvE: All classes stam and mag does this

All classes use shield casts? Not sure what game you are playing ...

Horowonnoe

Sorc DPS are viable for everything except competitive endgame content. In competitive endgame content sorcs are healers / buff ***.

If all you want to do is dolmens and world bosses and whatever dungeons, you dont really need to worry about meta and whatnot.

GoldenLight

Have not really seen anything on my end with my sorcerer with the changes. I don't really have to use a shield and still find running The Vaults of Madness solo the same as before (Normal mode is still easy solo and a quick run).


Pets do seem to take a beating a bit more but a quick resummons is not the end of the world as you get the magicka back when they die.

I can see where this would change the PvP some but PvE hasn't shown much of a change for me and I have been running the same armor, weapons, Jewelry on my build forever without having to change anything during the new updates.


Update: Did to veteran mode with Elden Hollow I (solo) and found Canonreave Oraneth took a bit longer to kill than before because pet got killed a few times by the skeletons that went straight to it.

Micah_Bayer

Minalan wrote: »

Respec most bastion CP into defense.
Wear a few tri-glyph pieces for health, impen on armor.
Spec into some protective jewels.
Done.

This is not the end of the Sorc PvP world, but its unplayable right now mostly due to the broken enchant mechanics. Someone else can give you those details.

And while you're at it, lose 4k magicka and a crap ton of dmg by changing traits. Dmg sorcerer didn't have in the first place.

Mintaka5

I wouldn't go as far to say that magsorcs are not viable anymore, but the biggest issue I have with this patch is how they lumped what was directed at PvP play with PvE play. PvP for my >cp820 magsorc doesn't feel any different, and that's not necessarily a good thing. My toon still feels weak against stam builds, magDKs, and stealthy gank bleed NBs that just unleash enormous amounts of damage up front, whether I have shields stacked or not, they still blow through everything I put up.

This aside, PvE play is even harder for me. So not only has PvP remained unenjoyable, but now the one area of this game that I truly enjoyed has been made lousy to play. I get that the devs want us to change our play styles and force us to step away from the metas, but I don't build off metas. I spent years tuning my magsorc to perform well in PvE, so that I could run harder content, without having to lean on meta builds that others created. Now with the nerfmire release, my progression has been practically reset. Yes, I can still clear stuff, but the decrease in my shields and the crit hits make me nothing but a gas-ladened newspaper page in an inferno maelstrom. World bosses that I was able to solo, I can no longer solo. Dungeons that I could run with ease, feel more like they did back before I was CP level. Not to mention that the DLC dungeons have yet to try because I was in the middle of getting better, and with this latest patch, I am forced to start all over again.

I am not against changing the difficulty of the content, but when those changes start directly effecting my hard work, and debilitating my toon's performance, then it's bad form on the devs' part, to force players to change. The game's content should change, not the player's self-crafted builds. Let us keep what we made good, and play against harder content. My character is something I've worked hard to create and progress, and regression is really making this game a complete suckfest.

I don't understand what the devs intended with this constant barrage of nerfs to magsorc builds, and what they stated in the patch notes logically makes no sense, or is a complete lie to push some interested party's agenda, and not benefit the community as a whole. One of the things they stated with the shield changes was to force sorcs to try some new style of play by not stacking shields. So was this an effort to stop us from doing that? Well, the only survivable way I've found to play on my magsorc in this patch is to stack shields. Well done, ZOS. Well done.

AcadianPaladin

I played a solo magsorc that was 'theme' based. Her centerpiece was a very strong Empowered Ward. That is how I wanted to play her and I loved the elegant joy of playing her. She is retired after this patch. I'm not interested in trying to force her into the box ZOS apparently wants to put magsorcs in.

Ragnarock41

Feanor wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Most magsorcs still try to face tank melee builds alone and die a much quicker death. ( no more half hour face tanking sessions)

Some of them adapted though, and streak seems like a really stronk kite tool now.

Half hour tanking sessions were already the outlier even before Update 20 and a sure sign that Sorc was facing fruits of the earth.

As for Streak, it’s still the same skill as before. The Speedy Gonzales era may be over, but people will start using gap closers again soon. It’s not a strong kiting tool unless you build for 4k mag Regen.

gapclosers are a one way trip, streak gives you the freedom to use it freely. We both know you don't need 4k mag regen for the occasional streak, maybe streak x2 for repositioning or using dark convertion. Don't forget that gapclosers exist for not just against sorcs, but for everyone else aswell.

If you're going to bring out solo PvP I would like to remind you that solo PvP is already dead for stamina, outside of stamblades cause they can afford to run a bow easier than others. This patch was a lose lose for everyone, except stamblades cloaked out of their nerfs.

Still, adapting is not impossible. I ended up dropping dizzying swing and even sword and shield completely and went for a dual wield ST build, which seems to be the only truly viable stamina setup right now and thats with a group of course. (cause bleeds carry and enchant changes are dumb, to be honest this was a huge buff for the pug stamina players who didnt use speed pots anyways, as result solo players are doomed.)

Kikke

jypcy wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Saphayla wrote: »

A lot of the responses seem to focus about PvP. I don't particularly care about PvP, as I think it's a toxic crowd that's far too competitive for relaxed, fun gameplay, but that's besides the point.

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

We are just nearly above mag wardens. DK, nightblade and templar is above us. And keep in mind, we are supposed to be a pure DPS class.

And if PvE is your focus, how is it fair that mags have to build for defence when stamina does not?

With respect to group content, that depends on how much you trust your healer. When running trials or dungeons, my stam friends tend to still have some healing or defensive skill on their bar, just like magicka would slot shield. If you don’t feel the need to be self reliant, you can take the shield off, just like stam would take their defensive skill off.

Stamina slots Vigor, magica slots shields. Both take up a bar slot, both are defence. Difference is shields are capped at 40/50% and vigor stacks the more you have.

SirAndy wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

PvE: All classes stam and mag does this

All classes use shield casts? Not sure what game you are playing ...

All mag and stam builds for pure dmg... And both stam and mag uses one ability for defence. Difference is shields are capped at 40/50% and vigor stacks the more you have.

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Sorc DPS are viable for everything except competitive endgame content. In competitive endgame content sorcs are healers / buff ***.

If all you want to do is dolmens and world bosses and whatever dungeons, you dont really need to worry about meta and whatnot.

Only reason sorc is 'viable' as you say for endgame content is for one reason; Conduit. That's it. All for Alkosh uptimes. And if a certain class rep gets her will that will be something of the past.

GhostPup

I run Bow Warden. So stam warden. Only two things truly fruatrate my character in PVP; that damn DK reflect ability, which causes me to hit myself with a 10k snipe literally everytime, and good magika sorcs. I always run a heal on my main bar and have good resistance and yet i still get instagibbed by good mag sorcs. Mag sorcs were never meant to be a sustain class which is why everyone is pissed. Theyre a burst class.

As for PVE? Pve is about role play. Its the main focus of the pve environment. So i would do what you find most fun regardless of how "gimped" it does or does not feel. It wont make most pve ers mad and if it does who cares.

jypcy

kikkehs wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Saphayla wrote: »

A lot of the responses seem to focus about PvP. I don't particularly care about PvP, as I think it's a toxic crowd that's far too competitive for relaxed, fun gameplay, but that's besides the point.

What kind of DPS can a Magicka Sorcerer pull off in PvE environment, and how does it compare to other classes?

We are just nearly above mag wardens. DK, nightblade and templar is above us. And keep in mind, we are supposed to be a pure DPS class.

And if PvE is your focus, how is it fair that mags have to build for defence when stamina does not?

With respect to group content, that depends on how much you trust your healer. When running trials or dungeons, my stam friends tend to still have some healing or defensive skill on their bar, just like magicka would slot shield. If you don’t feel the need to be self reliant, you can take the shield off, just like stam would take their defensive skill off.

Stamina slots Vigor, magica slots shields. Both take up a bar slot, both are defence. Difference is shields are capped at 40/50% and vigor stacks the more you have.

SirAndy wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

PvE: All classes stam and mag does this

All classes use shield casts? Not sure what game you are playing ...

All mag and stam builds for pure dmg... And both stam and mag uses one ability for defence. Difference is shields are capped at 40/50% and vigor stacks the more you have.

Shields can also be used proactively to prevent a death, whereas heals, such as vigor, cannot. You’re right in asserting that they’re not the same, but speaking as someone who mains magdps when I dps, I think the differences are fair.

Ranger209

Actually a lot of players proactively cast vigor as well and try to keep its uptime at 100% when needed

JKith

Just for PvE as I don't really do PvP, I really don't know what all the fuss is about. MagSorc without pets can do 43k-48k self buffed on a 6mil without lover and only 20cp in spell pen and obviously more than that in a trial. Brings minor prophecy and conduit to a trial, have great cleave damage (more than nightblade) the sore spot is sustain but there are ways of managing that too. Shields effect all mag classes not just Sorc and with hardened ward you have the cheapest 50% health shield compared to light armor skill. You can even go more self-heal if needed, tho it's easier on a nightblade. MaSorc totally still viable.

jypcy

Yes, but the point is proactively casting vigor won’t save you from a hit that could one shot you. Proactively casting a shield can.