Premature 30 minute observations of 4.2 AvA

zyk

- solo play will be worse than ever
- zerging will be worse than ever
- ball groups will run over everyone effortlessly

Initial impression: ball up with rapids or gtfo

WreckfulAbandon

Still downloading the patch after work but it all checks out. Whoever thought up Swift ruined PvP.

frozywozy

zyk wrote: »

- solo play will be worse than ever
- zerging will be worse than ever
- ball groups will run over everyone effortlessly

Initial impression: ball up with rapids or gtfo

I like this deduction. Can't wait to see more people playing in ballgroups, roll over everyone and see how easy it is.

usmcjdking

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

- solo play will be worse than ever
- zerging will be worse than ever
- ball groups will run over everyone effortlessly

Initial impression: ball up with rapids or gtfo

I like this deduction. Can't wait to see more people playing in ballgroups, roll over everyone and see how easy it is.

its gonna be mostly gtfo

ShadowProc

Shocker. Ball groups got stronger.

#NERFRAPIDS

Sanct16

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

WaltherCarraway

...players in same group only

ShadowProc

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

- solo play will be worse than ever
- zerging will be worse than ever
- ball groups will run over everyone effortlessly

Initial impression: ball up with rapids or gtfo

I like this deduction. Can't wait to see more people playing in ballgroups, roll over everyone and see how easy it is.

Yup. U right. Running in raids with 34k health on a bomber real hard. Also spamming non stop healing, purge and Rapids causes no lag.

Raids running circles around everyone with cc immunity and 30% more speed than them is so tough!

#BUFFBALLGROUPSITSSOHARD

ShadowProc

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

Vincelex

I love it if rapids were nerfed then I could stop running in a 12-16man group and start rolling 48 man zergs. I got a position as raid 2 crown waiting for me. Can't wait!

IxSTALKERxI

Just use mistform / reflective scales? I can't remember the last time I had the luxury of a rapids spammer in group and I still manage lol. Also sprinting in light armor is OP now.

frozywozy

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

so what you mean is that Rapid should be nerfed to affect only 6 players so a group of 16 could not get away from a group of 40 but your group of 4 could still get away from a group of 12. Did I get this right?

ShadowProc

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

so what you mean is that Rapid should be nerfed to affect only 6 players so a group of 16 could not get away from a group of 40 but your group of 4 could still get away from a group of 12. Did I get this right?

Yes. I did mean you should have to make an investment like that group of 4 or solo should do.

Can you honestly say having one person in that 16 man group spamming that is the same investment a solo or 4 person?

So have 3 spammers and 2 healers and that still leaves 11 for damage. You will be just fine and STILL GET AWAY FROM THAT BLOB.

I large scaled as well for the first 4 years. I now exclusively play small scale. Both large and small scale should be allowed their play style. BUT BALANCED.

I liked the faster playstyle alot and would have preferred not nerfing speed and snare immunity BUT THEY DID. So balance is necessary.

Yes I think you should have to have 3 players invest in survivability out of 16.

frozywozy

ShadowProc wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

so what you mean is that Rapid should be nerfed to affect only 6 players so a group of 16 could not get away from a group of 40 but your group of 4 could still get away from a group of 12. Did I get this right?

Yes. I did mean you should have to make an investment like that group of 4 or solo should do.

Can you honestly say having one person in that 16 man group spamming that is the same investment a solo or 4 person?

So have 3 spammers and 2 healers and that still leaves 11 for damage. You will be just fine and STILL GET AWAY FROM THAT BLOB.

I large scaled as well for the first 4 years. I now exclusively play small scale. Both large and scale should be allowed their play style. BUT BALANCED.

I liked the faster playstyle alot and would have preferred not nerfing speed and snare immunity BUT THEY DID. So balance is necessary.

Yes I think you should have to have 3 players invest in survivability out of 16.

I understand the fact that a group of 4 have to sacrifice alot more to get one dedicated speed spammer to get away from roots / snares during outnumbered fights. This being said, the damage output being thrown at you when you fight 12 players is nothing compared to what is being thrown at our group by 50 players.

I understand that we have more healing and 30k health instead of 23k but that won't save us from well coordinated burst damage. When fighting 50 players, you sometimes face 6 dawnbreakers and 4 storms and a couple negates landing at you at the same time and having speed to get out of it is a must for survival.

They just nerfed Dark Deal precisely to affect ballgroups without nerfing small scalling too much. I think that was the right approach to address the ingoing issue. Reducing the amount of people speed affects will just instantly kill any kind of organized group plays. Zergs would be massing left and right without any counter whatsoever.

ShadowProc

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Because if your solo or small group you cant afford the skill slot or to spam it.

In a large group you have one role. So if you are the Rapids spammer you build just enough survivability but plenty of stam regen to spam Rapids.

Same principle for purge.

These ball groups also solo from time to time so they know what a huge over sight by Zos this was.

It is completely broken. This skill has been left broken way too long. Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

Rapids is a joke. You gain way too much from one ability in a group. It's the most broken ability in the game.

Take out the support after or two spamming this BS and watch how quickly you take out a group.

At least swift gave you the chance to get away. Now good luck when a ball group sets their sights on you with AP foaming from their mouth.

so what you mean is that Rapid should be nerfed to affect only 6 players so a group of 16 could not get away from a group of 40 but your group of 4 could still get away from a group of 12. Did I get this right?

Yes. I did mean you should have to make an investment like that group of 4 or solo should do.

Can you honestly say having one person in that 16 man group spamming that is the same investment a solo or 4 person?

So have 3 spammers and 2 healers and that still leaves 11 for damage. You will be just fine and STILL GET AWAY FROM THAT BLOB.

I large scaled as well for the first 4 years. I now exclusively play small scale. Both large and scale should be allowed their play style. BUT BALANCED.

I liked the faster playstyle alot and would have preferred not nerfing speed and snare immunity BUT THEY DID. So balance is necessary.

Yes I think you should have to have 3 players invest in survivability out of 16.

I understand the fact that a group of 4 have to sacrifice alot more to get one dedicated speed spammer to get away from roots / snares during outnumbered fights. This being said, the damage output being thrown at you when you fight 12 players is nothing compared to what is being thrown at our group by 50 players.

I understand that we have more healing and 30k health instead of 23k but that won't save us from well coordinated burst damage. When fighting 50 players, you sometimes face 6 dawnbreakers and 4 storms and a couple negates landing at you at the same time and having speed to get out of it is a must for survival.

They just nerfed Dark Deal precisely to affect ballgroups without nerfing small scalling too much. I think that was the right approach to address the ingoing issue. Reducing the amount of people speed affects will just instantly kill any kind of organized group plays. Zergs would be massing left and right without any counter whatsoever.

We are getting somewhere. It will not kill any kind of organized group. You telling me 3 Rapids spammers, 11 damage dealers and 2 healers cant kill 50 but 1 Rapids, 2 healers and 13 dps can? It's more balanced. You invest and win great. But winning with no investment? Come on man.

zyk

It's pretty indisputable that large groups are going to profit disproportionately. I'm not just talking about Drac, I'm talking about all ball groups, even the not so great ones. Large groups will be able to use rapids extremely efficiently. This will be a huge advantage.

At every objective and open field fight, it's clear the average player is much slower than before. Obviously less mobile targets will be easier to mow down.

On the other side of the coin, contributing to fights against ball groups will be much more difficult for solo and small groups. I experienced that first hand tonight against a so-so ball group. You have to give them much more space without the old major expedition potions and abilities. That makes disrupting, ulting and escaping them *much* more difficult.

I think there's a place for large groups, but right now they're disproportionately strong which is going to be bad for the game.

ATomiX96

ShadowProc wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

Purge and Rapids should effect no more than 6 players.

purge only works on 6 ppl per cast anyways correct me if im wrong, and idk if they fixed the bug where it only works on the first 6 people who joined the group.

frozywozy

zyk wrote: »

It's pretty indisputable that large groups are going to profit disproportionately. I'm not just talking about Drac, I'm talking about all ball groups, even the not so great ones. Large groups will be able to use rapids extremely efficiently. This will be a huge advantage.

At every objective and open field fight, it's clear the average player is much slower than before. Obviously less mobile targets will be easier to mow down.

On the other side of the coin, contributing to fights against ball groups will be much more difficult for solo and small groups. I experienced that first hand tonight against a so-so ball group. You have to give them much more space without the old major expedition potions and abilities. That makes disrupting, ulting and escaping them *much* more difficult.

I think there's a place for large groups, but right now they're disproportionately strong which is going to be bad for the game.

I think it all comes down to how exactly you are trying to disrupt that ballgroup as a solo player. Personally I don't think that one single player should have any chance whatsoever to destroy a ballgroup, unless they are simply afk or waiting on a well or something.

This being said, there are key roles in the game that can change the course of a fight if played well while zerg surfing against an organized group. First is the bomb blade, second is a negate sorc, third is a warden with the frozen gate and last and not the least is the dk with the grip. Each of them, independently and if timed properly can influence the battle and get several players killed. Most people have seen me achieve this times and times again with my bomb blade.

If you can get a few friends to join you, the best comp to totally destroy a ballgroup and I mean kill all of them is made of only 4 players. One bomb blade, one negate sorc, one magdk and one templar of any spec.

1) 4 Proxies
2) One storm
3) One banner
4) One negate
5) One nova
6) Combination of synergies with harmony (ignite, shackle, gravity crush, lightning flood and if you really want to, energy orb)

Xeniph

He does have a point, Frozen.

Adjusting mobility in all but 2 skills in the game, one of those being mostly used by people on a mount or large groups is at the very least short sighted.

Imo, large groups should be LESS mobile than solo/small scale players. After all their power should be in the stacked healing/CC/damage and not mobility.

Mobility should be the advantage of small scale as they lack the CC/damage/healing that large groups have.

I would very much like to see them make Rapids a mounted skill only, but maybe that's just me.

However, with all this said, the arguments in this thread all stem from differences in playstyle and nobody likes nerfs. I get that.

frozywozy

Xeniph wrote: »

He does have a point, Frozen.

Adjusting mobility in all but 2 skills in the game, one of those being mostly used by people on a mount or large groups is at the very least short sighted.

Imo, large groups should be LESS mobile than solo/small scale players. After all their power should be in the stacked healing/CC/damage and not mobility.

Mobility should be the advantage of small scale as they lack the CC/damage/healing that large groups have.

I would very much like to see them make Rapids a mounted skill only, but maybe that's just me.

However, with all this said, the arguments in this thread all stem from differences in playstyle and nobody likes nerfs. I get that.

I personally think that Forward Momentum was fine the way it was. It should not have been nerfed. We need more ways to deal with snares and their effect need to be diminished, not only their duration.

You can find in my signature and in several posts addressing the PTS different ideas to balance the problem :

- Add potions that provide snares immunity
- Increase the snare immunity duration of Shuffle on pair with Forward Momentum (pre-nerf)
- Change the useless morph of Mist form to the following : Remove the CC immunity, keep the Snare immunity and also let you cast abilities (Magicka forward momentum)
- Bring diminishing returns to the game (first time you get snared : full duration, second time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : half duration, third time after using a snare removal in a 5seconds period : immune for 5 seconds). This could also be valid for any root and imbalance / disorient effects.

Removing Retreating maneuvers from the game would literally kill ballgroups in any openfield scenario.
Zergs would dominate Cyrodiil with no counter.

casparian

@frozywozy has a point — nerfing Rapids makes it much harder for the coordinated 16-24 person group to take down the true blob zerg of 30+. Do we really want to give players more incentive to cluster in such enormous groups? We need ball groups so that someone can clear out the blobs.

But that’s just a special case of the point others in this thread have made: efficient access to mobility is necessary at all scales of PVP. It makes no sense for ZOS to decide that only a specific type of group can have efficient access to mobility.

Clearly the solution isn’t to nerf the ball group play style, but to un-nerf small scale. Make Major Expedition an accessible buff again (with necessary adjustments to Swift), or provide general, scale-agnostic adjustments to snares.

Otherwise, like jdking said, many of us just won’t bother to play.

BigBadVolk

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

ssshhh dont tell em

ZOS_Ragnar

We removed some hostile comments that were disrupting the discussion. Please keep your posts civil and constructive.

leepalmer95

BigBadVolk wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Why can't you use maneuver in a non-bally group? It has a radius of 20 meters ?

ssshhh dont tell em

As soon as you attack the buff goes away.

LeifErickson

Speed was ridiculously overpowered and needed a nerf. It sucks that class skills got nerfed as well but speed pots and swift were dumb. Lots of people were saying that speed pots only got nerfed because of swift. In my opinion, speed pots have been overpowered for a long time and needed to be nerfed too. Not really sure how I feel about rapids getting no change. Ball groups already have things pretty easy but I guess making rapids only affect a smaller amount of people would probably be better.

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's pretty indisputable that large groups are going to profit disproportionately. I'm not just talking about Drac, I'm talking about all ball groups, even the not so great ones. Large groups will be able to use rapids extremely efficiently. This will be a huge advantage.

At every objective and open field fight, it's clear the average player is much slower than before. Obviously less mobile targets will be easier to mow down.

On the other side of the coin, contributing to fights against ball groups will be much more difficult for solo and small groups. I experienced that first hand tonight against a so-so ball group. You have to give them much more space without the old major expedition potions and abilities. That makes disrupting, ulting and escaping them *much* more difficult.

I think there's a place for large groups, but right now they're disproportionately strong which is going to be bad for the game.

I think it all comes down to how exactly you are trying to disrupt that ballgroup as a solo player. Personally I don't think that one single player should have any chance whatsoever to destroy a ballgroup, unless they are simply afk or waiting on a well or something.

This being said, there are key roles in the game that can change the course of a fight if played well while zerg surfing against an organized group. First is the bomb blade, second is a negate sorc, third is a warden with the frozen gate and last and not the least is the dk with the grip. Each of them, independently and if timed properly can influence the battle and get several players killed. Most people have seen me achieve this times and times again with my bomb blade.

If you can get a few friends to join you, the best comp to totally destroy a ballgroup and I mean kill all of them is made of only 4 players. One bomb blade, one negate sorc, one magdk and one templar of any spec.

1) 4 Proxies
2) One storm
3) One banner
4) One negate
5) One nova
6) Combination of synergies with harmony (ignite, shackle, gravity crush, lightning flood and if you really want to, energy orb)

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

NBrookus

The speed meta in Summerset/Wolfhunter wasn't healthy, for reasons the forums have dissected at length.

However now we have a situation where there is no niche for small scale, and soloers are basically relegated to ganking or transitus bombing which is 99% nightblade.

Small groups need something they, in particular, do better than large groups. Large groups (organized or not) have more damage and more heals, and should. Superior speed and manueverability would be an appropriate niche for small scale, but it would have to be enclusive of all specs and not dependant on specific gear or consumables to be healthy.

frozywozy

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

ScruffyWhiskers

frozywozy wrote: »

I think it all comes down to how exactly you are trying to disrupt that ballgroup as a solo player. Personally I don't think that

I like to throw down a siege. It almost always gets their attention and they come running as a group at you.

Also, as a solo player you can try and pick off stragglers who seem to always be healers so that helps. If you can catch them without snare immunity you can isolate them.

Finally you can be the player who scouts around for their forward camp or chases down their camp placer.

ShadowProc

LeifErickson wrote: »

Speed was ridiculously overpowered and needed a nerf. It sucks that class skills got nerfed as well but speed pots and swift were dumb. Lots of people were saying that speed pots only got nerfed because of swift. In my opinion, speed pots have been overpowered for a long time and needed to be nerfed too. Not really sure how I feel about rapids getting no change. Ball groups already have things pretty easy but I guess making rapids only affect a smaller amount of people would probably be better.

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's pretty indisputable that large groups are going to profit disproportionately. I'm not just talking about Drac, I'm talking about all ball groups, even the not so great ones. Large groups will be able to use rapids extremely efficiently. This will be a huge advantage.

At every objective and open field fight, it's clear the average player is much slower than before. Obviously less mobile targets will be easier to mow down.

On the other side of the coin, contributing to fights against ball groups will be much more difficult for solo and small groups. I experienced that first hand tonight against a so-so ball group. You have to give them much more space without the old major expedition potions and abilities. That makes disrupting, ulting and escaping them *much* more difficult.

I think there's a place for large groups, but right now they're disproportionately strong which is going to be bad for the game.

I think it all comes down to how exactly you are trying to disrupt that ballgroup as a solo player. Personally I don't think that one single player should have any chance whatsoever to destroy a ballgroup, unless they are simply afk or waiting on a well or something.

This being said, there are key roles in the game that can change the course of a fight if played well while zerg surfing against an organized group. First is the bomb blade, second is a negate sorc, third is a warden with the frozen gate and last and not the least is the dk with the grip. Each of them, independently and if timed properly can influence the battle and get several players killed. Most people have seen me achieve this times and times again with my bomb blade.

If you can get a few friends to join you, the best comp to totally destroy a ballgroup and I mean kill all of them is made of only 4 players. One bomb blade, one negate sorc, one magdk and one templar of any spec.

1) 4 Proxies
2) One storm
3) One banner
4) One negate
5) One nova
6) Combination of synergies with harmony (ignite, shackle, gravity crush, lightning flood and if you really want to, energy orb)

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Especially with Earthgore still in the game dulling bursts. Another crutch that needs to go.

ShadowProc

The also nerfed scattershot big time. 40% I believe. Another buff for raids. Honestly I think they want to drive players towards large groups. Which I dont understand because the are 100% causing way more lag than soloers or small groups.

LeifErickson

frozywozy wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

That comp would definitely blow people up but I honestly have a hard time seeing a group of four in that comp realistically wipe any ball group regardless of skill level with that setup. I'd like to see that kind of comp in action as to me it just looks good on paper and in practice there is no way it would work.

Could you elaborate as to why it would not work in practice?

Well the main thing would be that I've never seen it done.

But that isn't enough burst and one negate isn't gonna get the whole group and rapids can allow people to just walk out of it. Then those who were not in the negate to begin with will just heal spam the others and since gravity crush is the only burst unless you get lucky crits on all the synergies and happen to have them all pop off at opportune times which won't happen it is just not enough damage. Then those players are without ult fighting 4 times their number.

Only in the best case scenario will that kind of tactic kill a third of the ball group and the remaining 2 thirds will have an easy time killing 4 guys without ult that had to sacrifice a ton in their builds to be able to kill the first third.

Do you honestly think your group would wipe to 4 people running that? I could survive that ult dump solo honestly.