FPS Problem

HowTaoBrownCow

I've been having the same FPS issues others have been having, but I'd never seen any of the weird visual effects that have been reported until today. I was running with a small group in Summerset, went to the Eastern Pass wayshrine, and was running down to the Sil Var Woad geyser when the screen just went nuts, with static spraying across the screen and blocks of various sizes and colors appearing in place of chunks of landscape and sky. I captured this image at the geyser itself, and this is one of the milder effects that I saw then. A /reloadui did nothing (and, in fact, a lot of my UI stopped working after that reload), but logging off and logging in again fixed it, and I didn't see the problem again. It was kind of cool really -- but only because it was of limited effect and I managed to fix it.

Wodinn

I logged in to try and move some furnishings between homes. The graphical glitches are absolutely TERRIBLE in homes. After that I couldn't do anything because the glitches seem to get worse the more I was inside my housing. I have even put my graphic settings on medium as well. That only seems to make a small difference in some areas.

sean.plackerb14_ESO

ZOS_AlexTardif wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We’ve been actively working non-stop on the Mac performance issue with the new API. It's one of our highest priority tasks, but it's a complicated issue that requires a large amount of reworking / testing and we’ve had to fast track a lot of this work due to OpenGL no longer being supported by Apple.

As to why OpenGL isn't available as an option from here on out: we're introducing compute shader support for Mac devices through the new API, which is something not available on Mac's (now-unsupported) OpenGL version. This will allow us to use graphics hardware for things we couldn't before, like GPU particles.

We do sincerely understand your frustration with the performance problems you're experiencing, but know that we’re working on this until it is resolved. As soon as it's fixed, it will be pushed in an incremental patch.

I'm not excusing this whole debacle and situation by ZOS at all, I don't even own a Mac but still find that this happened quite a poor show of the QA process at ZOS. But just to be clear this part from the post is not total BS.

"As to why OpenGL isn't available as an option from here on out: we're introducing compute shader support for Mac devices through the new API, which is something not available on Mac's (now-unsupported) OpenGL version. This will allow us to use graphics hardware for things we couldn't before, like GPU particles."

Apple has not updated the version of OpenGL support on OS X past OpenGL 4.1 which came out in July 2010, support for compute shaders were added to OpenGL in GL 4.3. Unlike on Windows where the GPU vendors add new OpenGL (and Vulkan) version support by driver updates to users on their GPU's that support it, OpenGL on OS X is far more tightly integrated with the OS and requires Apple to update it. So its been stuck on 4.1 for a long time now. OGL 4.6 came out July 2017 (nvidia had windows drivers with OGL 4.6 support out the same day OGL 4.6 was accounced).

The "compute shaders" ZOS talks about were not possible with OpenGL until version 4.3. However I do find it ridiculous that this move to the Metal API (via MoltenVK translating Vulkan API calls to Metal API calls) did not get any decent amount of testing. If it did then so many people would not have the game running MUCH slower than it did before. Its not the fault of MoltenVK and using it so they can most likely use the same Vulkan renderer on Windows later down the line either (Vulkan can give the same perf improvements as DX12 buts its far more portable across platforms). Valve used MoltenVK for DOTA 2 with great results out of the gate, providing a significant performance increase over OpenGL on day 1. This issue with ESO's mac client came down to a lack of QA before releasing it. Was this change even included in any of the PTS patches for the mac client or just thrown in on the release version of the patch so no one could actually publicly test it? Yes OpenGL is depreciated (it will never move past OGL 4.1) on OS X but support for it has not been ripped from the OS and won't be for a very long time , if ever because of so many games as well as apps that use it that will never be updated. So ZOS did not have any reason to rush this major change to the rendering engine on the mac client. On the bright side it SHOULD result in better performance than you guys had with OGL, and I do hope the Vulkan renderer comes to Windows in the future since its lower level design and much better support for utilizing multiple CPU cores to dispatch work to the GPU would be very welcomed.

keto3000

I can report similar "mixed" improvement after the fix:

FPS: before Murkmire: 20-60 fps in Rawl kha and 20-40 in Cyrodiil (I have always played on medium settings so my iMac doesn't overheat)

FPS: after Murk 20 patch: 5-15 fps in both raw kha and Cyrodiil (virtually unplayable)


Now, after “fix” its ~30 fps steady in RawlKha / 25 - 55 fps in Cyrodiil


Games stutters & freezes a lot, especially in Cyrodiil and while using Rapids/ crossing terrain and in battles w/a lot of action and movement.

Still freezes up after this fix, but less than Murk 20 problems.

My game still crashes often in pvp combat & every time I close it since Murk 20 & even after the fix.



JJBoomer

still no fps improvement. flickering is constant. crashes when exiting.

Wodinn

JJBoomer wrote: »

still no fps improvement. flickering is constant. crashes when exiting.

I played for a bit this morning. Got some quests done. The only times my fps saw any improvement was inside buildings. However if I'm outside or around players at all my fps tanks completely.

But whatever you do. Don't try to do anything with housing. It makes the flicker FAR worse.

agegarton

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/446331/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-2-9#latest

Nothing for Mac peeps here this week.

ethernut60

sean.plackerb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_AlexTardif wrote: »

... This issue with ESO's mac client came down to a lack of QA before releasing it. Was this change even included in any of the PTS patches for the mac client or just thrown in on the release version of the patch so no one could actually publicly test it? ...

As a matter of faact, it was on the PTS, MANY reports of an unusable client, but ZOS ignored all that and rekeased it anyway.

nathan_bri

They didn’t release Murkmire because it was ready, they released it because they had a schedule. This has been an issue since April of 2014.

rluke

They should release a performance/bugfix DLC, I think many of us would buy that.
It’s a whole new gaming experience if you have high FPS and smooth gameplay.

nathan_bri

rluke wrote: »

They should release a performance/bugfix DLC, I think many of us would buy that.
It’s a whole new gaming experience if you have high FPS and smooth gameplay.

I already did when I bought the game. They just continue to not deliver.

yacoob

4.2.9 patchnotes don't mention anything about Mac performance. Has anyone tested it yet and can say if anything changed for Mac users?

Wodinn

rluke wrote: »

They should release a performance/bugfix DLC, I think many of us would buy that.
It’s a whole new gaming experience if you have high FPS and smooth gameplay.

WHAT? I wouldn't, no! That's just a bs excuse to make more money off of us when the game should be *** PLAYABLE as is. Absolutely NOT!!

ethernut60

9 days left on ESO+ sub. No more $$ from me until there is a suitable macOS client that performs comparably to the Windows client on my Mac. If the REAL reason is that Apple has deprecated OpenGL you should have gone to MoltenGL instead of MoltenVK. Both sit on top of Metal and had you wouldn't have had to throw throw out your OpenGL code and then could take your time to learn Vulkan. The real reason is that you used the excuse of deprecated OpenGL (which still works and has never been updated since v4.1, so it's effectively been deprecated for years) to make us the guinea pigs for the corporate plan to move to Vulkan.

kenjitamura

ethernut60 wrote: »

9 days left on ESO+ sub. No more $$ from me until there is a suitable macOS client that performs comparably to the Windows client on my Mac. If the REAL reason is that Apple has deprecated OpenGL you should have gone to MoltenGL instead of MoltenVK. Both sit on top of Metal and had you wouldn't have had to throw throw out your OpenGL code and then could take your time to learn Vulkan. The real reason is that you used the excuse of deprecated OpenGL (which still works and has never been updated since v4.1, so it's effectively been deprecated for years) to make us the guinea pigs for the corporate plan to move to Vulkan.

MoltenGL would have had an associated licensing cost and since it isn't open source it wouldn't see the degree of development that MoltenVK can benefit from. Short term going this route sucks for Mac users but long term the decision will decidedly be the much better option.

Though I agree they shouldn't have rolled out a new rendering backend until it was ready it is probably just a reflection of ZOS cost weighing decisions that they deemed the Mac userbase not financially significant enough to include a drawn out development process for the transition.

Until it's fixed Mac users should most certainly unsubscribe and demand refunds for prior purchased existing subscription services that are being wasted. However remember that you can't demand a full refund for the base game or any expired subscription services you think you are entitled for compensation for as ZOS reserves the right to break the game or take it offline for all of its users as you don't really own your character or any of its achievements that you worked on.

JJBoomer

tbh i still believe this is all a precursor to them dropping mac support. If they really are putting a lot of resources towards fixing this, but can't, then I have no doubt they'll come back with an announcement about dropping mac support due to resource drain. That's what happened with STO. They were putting resources towards trying to fix and maintain their mac client until they decided it wasn't worth the resources they thought they were wasting.

This has all the same marking of that. like i said before, I won't be surprised if at some point soon, they announce dropping mac support because they "don't have the resources"

Montie

ethernut60 wrote: »

9 days left on ESO+ sub. No more $$ from me until there is a suitable macOS client that performs comparably to the Windows client on my Mac. If the REAL reason is that Apple has deprecated OpenGL you should have gone to MoltenGL instead of MoltenVK. Both sit on top of Metal and had you wouldn't have had to throw throw out your OpenGL code and then could take your time to learn Vulkan. The real reason is that you used the excuse of deprecated OpenGL (which still works and has never been updated since v4.1, so it's effectively been deprecated for years) to make us the guinea pigs for the corporate plan to move to Vulkan.

Why go with MoltenGL? From their own website: "MoltenGL is an implementation of the OpenGL ES 2.0 API that runs on Apple's Metal graphics framework." OpenGL ES 2.0 is roughly based on OpenGL 2.0.

Montie

JJBoomer wrote: »

tbh i still believe this is all a precursor to them dropping mac support. If they really are putting a lot of resources towards fixing this, but can't, then I have no doubt they'll come back with an announcement about dropping mac support due to resource drain. That's what happened with STO. They were putting resources towards trying to fix and maintain their mac client until they decided it wasn't worth the resources they thought they were wasting.

This has all the same marking of that. like i said before, I won't be surprised if at some point soon, they announce dropping mac support because they "don't have the resources"

Sadly, I am beginning to agree with you. There are so many things that ZOS is doing so incredibly poorly here that it is beyond reason. The lack of professionalism and the lack of caring about their own product is surprising to me and all it would take is more and better communication to fix "some" of that.

Hopefully we are both wrong, I want to be wrong.

Callah

I can't be certain - but I have a sneaking hunch that while Mac users are understandably a small user base in the game I would expect an unusually high number of them are ESO+ and Crown Store users ... I know I am

If that is the case then our small numbers in game might not actually be as big of a drain on resources as our numbers would indicate.

I am more in the camp that if they were going to cut us off they would simply have announced that the Mac client was going to be deprecated due to Apples decision to abandon the OpenGL in future OSs. I think their decision to invest in the time for porting the Mac client to Vulkan has essentially left us as Beta testers for the eventual switch over for all clients.

Welcome to the Vanguard!

Let's hope that ZOS plans on communicating with us sometime soon

Finthimel

I have given up now. Game unplayable and not enjoying the experience anymore. Have cancelled my subscription deleted my characters and the game.

rluke

deleted and completely re-downloaded the game. Also documents folder.
Reinstalled all addons as well.
Open world 100 fps (v-sync on, 100 Hz Monitor) and light drops in cities.

In full screen mode I also have graphics errors and when I close the game a crash, but otherwise it goes very well.
Better than before murkmire.

keto3000

Callah wrote: »

I can't be certain - but I have a sneaking hunch that while Mac users are understandably a small user base in the game I would expect an unusually high number of them are ESO+ and Crown Store users ... I know I am

If that is the case then our small numbers in game might not actually be as big of a drain on resources as our numbers would indicate.

I am more in the camp that if they were going to cut us off they would simply have announced that the Mac client was going to be deprecated due to Apples decision to abandon the OpenGL in future OSs. I think their decision to invest in the time for porting the Mac client to Vulkan has essentially left us as Beta testers for the eventual switch over for all clients.

Welcome to the Vanguard!

Let's hope that ZOS plans on communicating with us sometime soon

Emma Kent from EUROGAMER has also contacted ZOS and asked for additional information on this:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-11-08-elder-scrolls-online-mac-problems-continue-to-drag-on

keto3000

Can you post your system specs please.

rluke wrote: »

deleted and completely re-downloaded the game. Also documents folder.
Reinstalled all addons as well.
Open world 100 fps (v-sync on, 100 Hz Monitor) and light drops in cities.

In full screen mode I also have graphics errors and when I close the game a crash, but otherwise it goes very well.
Better than before murkmire.

rluke

keto3000 wrote: »

Can you post your system specs please.

rluke wrote: »

deleted and completely re-downloaded the game. Also documents folder.
Reinstalled all addons as well.
Open world 100 fps (v-sync on, 100 Hz Monitor) and light drops in cities.

In full screen mode I also have graphics errors and when I close the game a crash, but otherwise it goes very well.
Better than before murkmire.

keto3000

rluke wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

Can you post your system specs please.

rluke wrote: »

deleted and completely re-downloaded the game. Also documents folder.
Reinstalled all addons as well.
Open world 100 fps (v-sync on, 100 Hz Monitor) and light drops in cities.

In full screen mode I also have graphics errors and when I close the game a crash, but otherwise it goes very well.
Better than before murkmire.

Thanks, I may try to do a complete reinstall as well and see what results.

zarnon_akoni

It feels like its getting worse. I had seen what appears to be some slight improvements but that is no more (probably never was). Clockwork City Event is horrendous... I'm in single digit FPS.

Here's the thing ZOS/Bethesda/whoever - you are losing business. I would have bought CWC if not for the performance issues. I have avoided ESO+ trials just because I didn't want to ever sub but did it here so I could get the feather, and hell I can see the value that I might sub. But I'm not giving you any more money when you show no interest in addressing concerns from the company and may very well be moving own from Mac. In the absence of communication the worst case scenario becomes more plausible.

So take accountability, own your mistakes, and be straight with us about what is going on.

zarnon_akoni

Hell, I'd even consider getting a new Mac if I was confident you were committed for the long term.

ethernut60

Montie wrote: »

ethernut60 wrote: »

9 days left on ESO+ sub. No more $$ from me until there is a suitable macOS client that performs comparably to the Windows client on my Mac. If the REAL reason is that Apple has deprecated OpenGL you should have gone to MoltenGL instead of MoltenVK. Both sit on top of Metal and had you wouldn't have had to throw throw out your OpenGL code and then could take your time to learn Vulkan. The real reason is that you used the excuse of deprecated OpenGL (which still works and has never been updated since v4.1, so it's effectively been deprecated for years) to make us the guinea pigs for the corporate plan to move to Vulkan.

Why go with MoltenGL? From their own website: "MoltenGL is an implementation of the OpenGL ES 2.0 API that runs on Apple's Metal graphics framework." OpenGL ES 2.0 is roughly based on OpenGL 2.0.

OpenGL ES 2.0, NOT OpenGL2.0

Montie

ethernut60 wrote: »

Montie wrote: »

ethernut60 wrote: »

9 days left on ESO+ sub. No more $$ from me until there is a suitable macOS client that performs comparably to the Windows client on my Mac. If the REAL reason is that Apple has deprecated OpenGL you should have gone to MoltenGL instead of MoltenVK. Both sit on top of Metal and had you wouldn't have had to throw throw out your OpenGL code and then could take your time to learn Vulkan. The real reason is that you used the excuse of deprecated OpenGL (which still works and has never been updated since v4.1, so it's effectively been deprecated for years) to make us the guinea pigs for the corporate plan to move to Vulkan.

Why go with MoltenGL? From their own website: "MoltenGL is an implementation of the OpenGL ES 2.0 API that runs on Apple's Metal graphics framework." OpenGL ES 2.0 is roughly based on OpenGL 2.0.

OpenGL ES 2.0, NOT OpenGL2.0

You are right, but it is roughly based on it.

OpenGL® ES is a royalty-free, cross-platform API for rendering advanced 2D and 3D graphics on embedded and mobile systems - including consoles, phones, appliances and vehicles. It consists of a well-defined subset of desktop OpenGL suitable for low-power devices, and provides a flexible and powerful interface between software and graphics acceleration hardware.

and

OpenGL ES 2.0 is defined relative to the OpenGL 2.0 specification. This means that, for example, an application written for OpenGL ES 1.0 should be easily portable to the desktop OpenGL 1.3; as the OpenGL ES is a stripped-down version of the API, the reverse may or may not be true, depending on the particular features used.

moonio

zarnon_akoni wrote: »

Hell, I'd even consider getting a new Mac if I was confident you were committed for the long term.

You would be better off getting a gaming PC..