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My idea of Specializations that would replace racial passives.
Benemime
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I don't want to be punished for not chosing to play with a specific race that I dislike, allow us to have a Specializations system instead of strong unbalanced passives like we have now, that strongly favors a race over the others. The current racial passives doesn't allow much freedom and bound us to races that are meta. This reflects on a race being more popular than every other race: High elves. I have a pvp achievement completed for killing high elves, and it's the first and only achievement that I completed regarding killing players within a specific race, the 2nd most popular race that is counting to complete the achievement is dark elf, but they are way outnumbered, 45 players killed so far (100 is the goal to complete the achievement).
I thought about a specializations system, a different tab on menu between skill trees and champion points, we start getting points for specializations at level 10, we gain a total of 40 points to spend on specializations.
There's different levels on the specialization tree, we can spend a total of 10 points on each level, the base level is the one related to your base resource (stamina or magicka), we can spend points either on max stamina or max magicka, you can even split your points between those two, like spending 3 points on max magicka, that it will give you 3% of max magicka, and 7 points on max stamina, giving you 7% of max stamina. Or you can spend the whole 10 points from that level on max stamina, giving 10% max stamina.
Then there's the offensive level of the specialization tree, you can spend a total of 10 points here as well, you can stack points on specific damage types, like lightning, flame, ice, magic dmg, poison, etc etc, or split those points to cover more dmg types. You can also spend points on spell or physical penetration, or spell damage, physical dmg, spell critical, physical critical...etc, everything related to dmg. (everything must be balanced as well, the % numbers on each, maybe if there's a cap for some nodes, like, the maximum points you can spend on spell critical is 3, and such things to balance). There's a node to increase healing done as well. High elves has a passive that gives them 4% lightning/flame/ice dmg, no wonder why they are so popular.
resource management/recovery level, that there are nodes for stamina recovery, magicka recovery, drecrease magicka cost from abilities, health recovery. %s and numbers must be reflected as well to balance some nodes. high elves has a passive that gives them 9% magicka recovery today, 9%.
and the last one is the defensive level, where we can spend on specific resistance types, like fire resistance, or lightning resistance, etc. Or something more generic like spell resist, phys resist. Crit resist...there's also a node to increase Max Health % as well, a node to increase healing received as well. You can personalize it the way you want, spending points whererever u want, splitting points and so on.
You might ask: "Oh, this will be lore breaking!11". No it won't, high elves would still be considered very magicka foward, it's part of their culture, like the culture of redguards with swords. But you can't just ignore that redguard that spent his whole life studying magic and being magicka gifted, while also considering that he's such a good warrior, by giving him warrior passives (even tho he hasn't trained to be a warrior!) that deprives him to be his 100% self, that deprives him of unleashing his whole (magicka) potential. ESO is not a singleplayer game like other TES games, it's a competitive online game. If you want to play very strictly to the lore you can still be a redguard swordsman, borned and raised to be a fighter.
"oh it will break build diversity!!11" - Really? With all these options and you say that it will break build diversity?? 90% of racial passives are just a number that straight buffs something, a straight buff to max health, max stamina, max magicka, recovery, critical, a straight % buff to elemental dmg, or whatever. Very few passives has something that goes different from that buff and offers something more unique, like the potion passive from argonians, or the red diamond passive from imperials that restores health with melee attacks or whatever, the majority of passives are just a % or a number that buffs something.
last but not least, I still think we should still have the inherent racial passive, like the 1% alliance points gain from bretons, 1% experience points gain from high elves, 1% gold from imperials, etc, something that won't segregate races like the current passives.
Edited by Benemime on October 19, 2018 2:24PM I thought about a specializations system, a different tab on menu between skill trees and champion points, we start getting points for specializations at level 10, we gain a total of 40 points to spend on specializations.
There's different levels on the specialization tree, we can spend a total of 10 points on each level, the base level is the one related to your base resource (stamina or magicka), we can spend points either on max stamina or max magicka, you can even split your points between those two, like spending 3 points on max magicka, that it will give you 3% of max magicka, and 7 points on max stamina, giving you 7% of max stamina. Or you can spend the whole 10 points from that level on max stamina, giving 10% max stamina.
Then there's the offensive level of the specialization tree, you can spend a total of 10 points here as well, you can stack points on specific damage types, like lightning, flame, ice, magic dmg, poison, etc etc, or split those points to cover more dmg types. You can also spend points on spell or physical penetration, or spell damage, physical dmg, spell critical, physical critical...etc, everything related to dmg. (everything must be balanced as well, the % numbers on each, maybe if there's a cap for some nodes, like, the maximum points you can spend on spell critical is 3, and such things to balance). There's a node to increase healing done as well. High elves has a passive that gives them 4% lightning/flame/ice dmg, no wonder why they are so popular.
resource management/recovery level, that there are nodes for stamina recovery, magicka recovery, drecrease magicka cost from abilities, health recovery. %s and numbers must be reflected as well to balance some nodes. high elves has a passive that gives them 9% magicka recovery today, 9%.
and the last one is the defensive level, where we can spend on specific resistance types, like fire resistance, or lightning resistance, etc. Or something more generic like spell resist, phys resist. Crit resist...there's also a node to increase Max Health % as well, a node to increase healing received as well. You can personalize it the way you want, spending points whererever u want, splitting points and so on.
You might ask: "Oh, this will be lore breaking!11". No it won't, high elves would still be considered very magicka foward, it's part of their culture, like the culture of redguards with swords. But you can't just ignore that redguard that spent his whole life studying magic and being magicka gifted, while also considering that he's such a good warrior, by giving him warrior passives (even tho he hasn't trained to be a warrior!) that deprives him to be his 100% self, that deprives him of unleashing his whole (magicka) potential. ESO is not a singleplayer game like other TES games, it's a competitive online game. If you want to play very strictly to the lore you can still be a redguard swordsman, borned and raised to be a fighter.
"oh it will break build diversity!!11" - Really? With all these options and you say that it will break build diversity?? 90% of racial passives are just a number that straight buffs something, a straight buff to max health, max stamina, max magicka, recovery, critical, a straight % buff to elemental dmg, or whatever. Very few passives has something that goes different from that buff and offers something more unique, like the potion passive from argonians, or the red diamond passive from imperials that restores health with melee attacks or whatever, the majority of passives are just a % or a number that buffs something.
last but not least, I still think we should still have the inherent racial passive, like the 1% alliance points gain from bretons, 1% experience points gain from high elves, 1% gold from imperials, etc, something that won't segregate races like the current passives.
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This just changes the problem instead of fixing the problem. The problem is elite players crunch the numbers post their builds and then many players in the game decide that is the only way to play. Not only do they adopt those builds but they expect anybody grouping with them to do the same.
So people are pressured into selecting a particular race and for some reason alien to me give in to that pressure. With a skill tree instead of racial passives we would still have pressure (maybe more pressure) to comply with the build of the day.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's nothing wrong with the present system, but for those who think there is the suggested change won't do anything except replace one "meta" approach to races with another.4 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's nothing wrong with the present system, but for those who think there is the suggested change won't do anything except replace one "meta" approach to races with another.
^This.
This suggestion, while interesting, would manage only two things:
1) Remove existing species ("races" definitely feels like a misnomer in this case) mechanical flavour.
2) Introduce another meta that players will still be forced to follow.
This idea really feels like it is taking something away to solve a problem that it does not, as seems likely, solve.0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
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Here’s a better conclusion: Racial heritage has a very rich and robust history in Elder Scrolls lore.
Which is why taking away those unique racial distinctions is a bad idea.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on October 19, 2018 1:49AM3 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Because in endgame in tes, racials were insignificant to meaningless, however were somewhat meaningful in early game.3 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't want to be punished for not chosing to play with a specific race that I dislike
Absolutely
And you're also right that some races, and I'd also factions are more popular because of this. AD has both the premium caster race and both races with thieving bonuses.
This was by design for monetization though.
Want the freedom to choose both race and faction - you have to pre-order. In an age where many are burned out from having pre-ordered other MMOs which turned out to be major bombs. And eventually they started selling that unlock.
IMO there's already ample customisation by way of equipment sets, mundus stones, enchantments, food / drink buffs and champion points. Racials could simply be removed.
Monetization could be sticky though. Many people will have paid for a race change specifically for those racial bonuses.1 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because in endgame in tes, racials were insignificant to meaningless, however were somewhat meaningful in early game.
As a general but not absolute rule.
In Morrowind, unless you were taking advantage of enchanting and or alchemy exploits, an altmer born under the sign of the atronach had a big edge beginning to end.
Less impactful but equally useful from beginning to end in Skyrim is Breton magic resistance.
But I agree with your disagreeing with this person.Taleof2Cities wrote: »Here’s a better conclusion: Racial heritage has a very rich and robust history in Elder Scrolls lore.
Which is why taking away those unique racial distinctions is a bad idea.
Racial distinctions in RPGs are a throw-back to a former age when people actually believed in "racial heritage". I cringed every time I saw ESO's loading screen message bout altmer making the best spellcasters.
It's also a major contradiction for this IP.
In Skyrim we see exactly what caring about "racial heritage" looks like with the Thalmor.
ESO also shows us the beginnings of the Thalmor and the ugliness of racism which is present in high elf culture. But at the game design level they promote the idea that not all races are equal.1 -
Benemime✭✭✭✭This just changes the problem instead of fixing the problem. The problem is elite players crunch the numbers post their builds and then many players in the game decide that is the only way to play.
there is no fix for that lolNot only do they adopt those builds but they expect anybody grouping with them to do the same.
I've never seen this happening, I see everyone doing whatever they want. Players are always free to try and customize builds without much problem.
I don't see how this is related to specializations, alcast and others will always going to do their thing, and there are players that will follow their ideas for builds no matter what, that doesn't reflect the majority of players that plays how they want, that knows about the mechanics and like to play their own builds. the majority of the playerbase is not full of people following streamers like if their 2cents was a law.With a skill tree instead of racial passives we would still have pressure (maybe more pressure) to comply with the build of the day.
IMO this is BS. I've never seen build police in ESO, I always did whatever I wanted with my builds, trying unique sets and all. But I play on console, where we have more freedom I guess. But tbh, there's no fix for that and specializations would allow more freedom of choice while giving us the freedom to chose the race that we like. So while you keep saying that "oh people are still going to follow meta", yes but they already do this, at least with specializations we will have freedom of choice, not going to be strictly playing with the same meta races, that's the big issue for me.There's nothing wrong with the present system, but for those who think there is the suggested change won't do anything except replace one "meta" approach to races with another.
^This.
This suggestion, while interesting, would manage only two things:
1) Remove existing species ("races" definitely feels like a misnomer in this case) mechanical flavour.
2) Introduce another meta that players will still be forced to follow.
This idea really feels like it is taking something away to solve a problem that it does not, as seems likely, solve.
meta will always be a thing. at least we will have more freedom of choice, customization and freedom to chose the race that we actually like instead of being forced to play with a specific race. different builds, sets etc requires different customizations on the "specialization" tree, so it won't be everyone running the same, different strokes for different folks. some magsorcs uses netch's touch, some use necropotence, some wears spinners, mother's sorrow, war maiden, destruction mastery, julianus, spider cultist cowl, etc etc variables are hugeEdited by Benemime on October 19, 2018 2:11PM0 -
ANGEL_BtVS✭✭✭✭This just changes the problem instead of fixing the problem. The problem is elite players crunch the numbers post their builds and then many players in the game decide that is the only way to play. Not only do they adopt those builds but they expect anybody grouping with them to do the same.
So people are pressured into selecting a particular race and for some reason alien to me give in to that pressure. With a skill tree instead of racial passives we would still have pressure (maybe more pressure) to comply with the build of the day.
Yes, except now you get to choose your race. Right now if you want the meta you are forced into a race and a build. If racial passives were removed, sure you'd still have meta builds, but at least then you could do so as any race you want.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"IMO this is BS. I've never seen build police in ESO, I always did whatever I wanted with my builds, trying unique sets and all."
I've quit PvP and trial guilds because they wanted to dictate how everybody played. One PvP guild had their elite players and to be in that elite group you had to do a very specific build. One player in the group was designated as a rapids spammer. Healers had to coordinate sets and skills. If you were in the group and someone logged into the game that the group leader thought would benefit the group more you had to drop group and let the other person in. They had one night a week for a couple of hours where anybody that wanted could join the group. Other than that you did what the officers requested or you were pugging it.
The trial guild I quit wasn't that bad. They at least had progressions and would help with farming gear but that was meant to get you in the gear and with the skills they though worked best.
Luckily there are a lot of guilds that are not this elite and are still fun to run with. The PvP guild I am in now can't plow through others like some of the other PvP guilds I've been in but we win quite a few battles (lose some too) and have fun doing it as we want.
All that said I wouldn't mind if players could pick a race but go with another races passives. Play as a Redguard raised by Argonians since birth allowing for him to have the Argonian passives. Could put a wrench in the works for players that try and demand tanks be Argonian but I'm good with that. I just don't see removing the racial skill lines and/or replacing them would add anything to the game.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Benemime✭✭✭✭"IMO this is BS. I've never seen build police in ESO, I always did whatever I wanted with my builds, trying unique sets and all."
I've quit PvP and trial guilds because they wanted to dictate how everybody played. One PvP guild had their elite players and to be in that elite group you had to do a very specific build. One player in the group was designated as a rapids spammer. Healers had to coordinate sets and skills. If you were in the group and someone logged into the game that the group leader thought would benefit the group more you had to drop group and let the other person in. They had one night a week for a couple of hours where anybody that wanted could join the group. Other than that you did what the officers requested or you were pugging it.
The trial guild I quit wasn't that bad. They at least had progressions and would help with farming gear but that was meant to get you in the gear and with the skills they though worked best.
Luckily there are a lot of guilds that are not this elite and are still fun to run with. The PvP guild I am in now can't plow through others like some of the other PvP guilds I've been in but we win quite a few battles (lose some too) and have fun doing it as we want.
All that said I wouldn't mind if players could pick a race but go with another races passives. Play as a Redguard raised by Argonians since birth allowing for him to have the Argonian passives. Could put a wrench in the works for players that try and demand tanks be Argonian but I'm good with that. I just don't see removing the racial skill lines and/or replacing them would add anything to the game.
I'm sorry but that's SO *** up, such a toxic guild to be part of. I've been on very succesful groups on PvP, several PvP guilds, and I've never seen nor had to deal with such matters, I'm shocked that this happens. I play on console, Xbox, so it might be that our community is not that crazy about meta, PvP and stuff? We don't have DPS meter addons and such things (but we can tell when a member of the group is outperforming during a dungeon of course)...you should come to Xbox lol0 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Because in endgame in tes, racials were insignificant to meaningless, however were somewhat meaningful in early game.
Which is exactly how it should be, but Mara help you if you suggest simply choosing race Z shouldn't give you a nice boost to power or sustain. Or - gasp! - that any Nord should ever EVER be as magical as any Altmer. Heresy, my immersion, homogenization, it doesn't matter but we will fight to the death to keep it, and of course L2P.
Good luck, OP.2 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Which is exactly how it should be, but Mara help you if you suggest simply choosing race Z shouldn't give you a nice boost to power or sustain. Or - gasp! - that any Nord should ever EVER be as magical as any Altmer. Heresy, my immersion, homogenization, it doesn't matter but we will fight to the death to keep it, and of course L2P.
You missed my personal favourite which I've never seen anywhere but in ESO - labelling everyone who chooses race for any reason other than racial bonus as "roleplayers".2 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've considered this in the past but decided it would result in the same problem with the most visually appealing races being represented disproportionately.
It would probably turn the game into Elves and Khajiit Online. Bye bye Orcs, Argonians, etc..Edited by zyk on October 19, 2018 11:55PM1 -
Synthwavius✭✭✭✭I currently main Redguard Magplar. I won't let that racial dictatorship to get me.
I was thinking about another passives workaround. Let us chose our parents like in GTA V and inherit their passives.Edited by Synthwavius on October 20, 2018 12:46AM1 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You lost me on your very first sentence.
No one is being punished for choosing a race that doesn't fit the meta. Good Lord, you people and your sense of victimization.
You want the entire racial premise behind TES to change so you can pick and choose your own racial passives? That would change one of the CORE designs of the game several years after release. All so you can have a meta stam Dunmer.
Pass.
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Vizikul✭✭✭✭Maybe high elves are just easier to kill.
well, they are higher... and therefore easier to aim at.Pugging. Pugging all the way to victory.Imperial Dragonknight --- male, stamina, heavy & medium armor, dual wield, one hand and shield, two handed.
Breton Templar --- female, magicka, light armor, restoration staff.
Redguard Warden --- female, stamina, medium armor, bow.
Breton Sorcerer --- male, magicka, light armor, destruction staff.
Imperial Templar --- male, stamina, medium armor, two handed.
Daggerfall Covenant loyalist2 -
Odnoc✭✭✭✭No, and nobody is getting punished... There is established lore with the various races, no reason to deviate from that. You want perfect balance, go play a FPS, not an RPG.0 -
shadowwraith666✭✭✭✭Racial passives are a thing in most rpgs, the TES series is no exception in fact some of the passives in ESO were established in previous TES games such as Breton magic resistance, dunmer fire resistance, nord frost resistance, argonian & bosmer poison resistance, same goes for enemy elemental/damage weaknesses.- Vicktor Bloodtail - L42 Argonian Magblade, Werewolf - EP
- Xarxes - L31 Dunmer Sorc, Vampire - EP
- Lichtspear - L21 Argonian Temp - EP
- Rajka Fireclaw - L21 Khajit DK - AD
PS4 EU
Vicente Valtiere, Dark Brotherhood, OblivionSpill some blood for me dear brother0 -
Benemime✭✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »No one is being punished for choosing a race that doesn't fit the meta. Good Lord, you people and your sense of victimization.
Oh really? Wow glad i was wrong, thanks to YOU now I know that i'm not being punished for not chosing to play with a high elf! Thank you for clarifying that, very useful to say it out loud. I'm not being punished wow, i was so wrong for thinking that i was.
Edited by Benemime on October 21, 2018 7:25PM0 -
Benemime✭✭✭✭shadowwraith666 wrote: »Racial passives are a thing in most rpgs, the TES series is no exception in fact some of the passives in ESO were established in previous TES games such as Breton magic resistance, dunmer fire resistance, nord frost resistance, argonian & bosmer poison resistance, same goes for enemy elemental/damage weaknesses.
Not like teso, teso racial passives has a huge impact on gameplay.0
