Fake Roles in the Group Finder

GreenHere

Variations of this topic have been discussed to death, and it never really goes anywhere. I get it; there's no talking some people into seeing things your way when they like it just fine on their side of the fence. That's okay. But, I have a simple request for you, random strangers on the internet:


If you're gonna queue as a tank, despite not really being one: Just slot a taunt, please. It's one skill slot. You can spare one. Do your group the bare minimum courtesy of keeping just the bosses in one place so we can all get on with our lives that much quicker. We all know more dps can be poured onto a boss if they're not moving all over the place, right? So do the group a solid, and keep em still. You signed up for that (and much more, but we'll settle for just holding still).

If you're gonna queue as a healer, despite not really being one: Same as above; just slot one of the many skills that give health to an ally. Vigor, Funnel Health, Lotus, Breath of Life -- whatever ya like. You have lots of options, and most are pretty good even as a damage dealer. Pick one (minimum) and at least pretend to try and prevent your group mates from dying when possible. If they die to mechanics or bad positioning, that's on them; but send a little health their way from time to time, would ya? Not asking for Orbs, or Ele Drain, or anything else... just a bit of health now and again. Please?

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer... But you can certainly be terrible at it. Try not to be, please? Getting good damage in ESO is about stacking multiple effects and abilities on your target. Try to use multiple different abilities that do damage over time, at the same time. You can overlap them, you know. We see you back there, spamming light attacks as if those little squares at the bottom of your screen are just for show. Put some skills on that skill bar, and use em! Also, realize that the more you move around, unless it's necessary, the more difficult it is for the tank to position things properly and the healer to give you buffs that you want (to boost your damage and survival).


What most of us want when we use the group finder to get through a dungeon is to... well, find a group to get through the dungeon. Oddly enough, that works best when people cooperate and pull their weight. If you signed up to do a job, please at least do the barest minimum of said job. You're capable. You know you are, and so does everyone else. If you just choose not to do it, that's uncool. Please be cool. That's all most of us want.

Jim_Pipp

You are preaching to the choir on the forums.

It may not be nice, but using the "vote to kick" needs to be normal when someone is not performing in their role.

I have been playing with tank builds recently, and almost every random daily I join is halfway done because the previous tank has been kicked.

Merlin13KAGL

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a role, despite not really being one:

Here are your two options

1. Do so with a premade
2. Don't queue.

Making allowances the other direction only promotes the problem.

GreenHere

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a role, despite not really being one:

Here are your two options

1. Do so with a premade
2. Don't queue.

Making allowances the other direction only promotes the problem.

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, we can't force the fake queuers (weird word right there) to stop and thus the problem is not going away any time soon. My post was meant more as a PSA / polite & honest request to those who might see it and actually consider their actions.

I know for a fact that many of the people who do said fake queueing (and do not do the things I requested) are on the forums and read posts like this.

The hope is that maybe, just maybe, we can meet each other in the middle with my simple suggestions.

GreenHere

GreenHere wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a role, despite not really being one:

Here are your two options

1. Do so with a premade
2. Don't queue.

Making allowances the other direction only promotes the problem.

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, we can't force the fake queuers (weird word right there) to stop and thus the problem is not going away any time soon. My post was meant more as a PSA / polite & honest request to those who might see it and actually consider their actions.

I know for a fact that many of the people who do said fake queueing (and do not do the things I requested) are on the forums and read posts like this.

The hope is that maybe, just maybe, we can meet each other in the middle with my simple suggestions.

But based on the popularity of this thread, I won't hold my breath! ;P

VaranisArano

Because what we really needed was another thread on this topic.

The old one is going strong here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/440739/fake-tanks-are-becoming-a-real-problem-for-solo-queues#latest

I agree with everything you said, I just dont think we needed yet another thread that's, as you said, just another variation on the topic.

mocap

fake healer + real tank = ok
fake healer + fake tank = depending on oneshot mechanics

true healer + fake tank = ok ("3DD" run)

true healer + true tank = obviously ok, but if DD suck, then it will be hell, and tank probably ragequit

GreenHere

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because what we really needed was another thread on this topic.

The old one is going strong here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/440739/fake-tanks-are-becoming-a-real-problem-for-solo-queues#latest

I agree with everything you said, I just dont think we needed yet another thread that's, as you said, just another variation on the topic.

Fair enough. But that thread seems to have come to mostly "u no need tank, wut ur probz?", "No, that's not the point; it's disrespectful & lazy, and we don't appreciate it.", "no u" and other such going-nowhere back-and-forth. With a bunch of justifications on both sides of the issue, for why each viewpoint is right or acceptable or whatever. Which I have no problem with, and participated in. Seemed appropriate to make my own thread for what I asked for in the OP, is all.

As I said above, I made this thread in hopes that some of the queue jumpers might see it and consider meeting us in the middle, given simple and clear requests. Posting this amidst all the arguments and justifications in the other thread didn't seem like it'd have nearly the chance to be helpful that it *might* have here, on its own. The spirit of this thread is different from where the thread you linked wound up.

GreenHere

mocap wrote: »

fake healer + real tank = ok
fake healer + fake tank = depending on oneshot mechanics

true healer + fake tank = ok ("3DD" run)

true healer + true tank = obviously ok, but if DD suck, then it will be hell, and tank probably ragequit

I'm not a rocket surgeon, but the math seems to check out!

But the issue isn't really about "will it work if...", at least not for me. I often prefer to do 4 dps runs, or bring in a tank/healer as necessary; but I do it with friends, or people who are made aware of what's up before they join. Springing no tank/healer runs on people without their consent, when they all showed up ready to do the job they signed up for (ostensibly, anyway) is not cool. That's what this thread is supposed to be aimed at.

I do like the way you distilled it, though.

Starlock

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a tank, despite not really being one: Just slot a taunt, please. It's one skill slot. You can spare one. Do your group the bare minimum courtesy of keeping just the bosses in one place so we can all get on with our lives that much quicker. We all know more dps can be poured onto a boss if they're not moving all over the place, right? So do the group a solid, and keep em still. You signed up for that (and much more, but we'll settle for just holding still).

Addendum: Say nobody slots a taunt. It happens. If it's a normal dungeon where deviating from roles isn't likely to break your chances at clearing the content, stand still if you notice you are the one who has the boss's aggression. You don't need to run around like a mad fool, just stand still. It'll be okay. Really. You, or someone else in your group, probably has enough heals that you will be fine. Just. Please. Stand. Still. If your character relies on dodge rolling for mitigation, please do dodge roll, but then get that boss back in the same spot he was - right in the middle of you and your ally AoEs!

Strider__Roshin

Strong DPS can burn through anything but HM on DLC dungeons; making the supportive roles unimportant.

Having invincible tanks or phenomenal healers are meaningless if your DPS is weak.

I would rather have a fake tank/healer than crappy DPS any day.

idk

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a role, despite not really being one:

Here are your two options

1. Do so with a premade
2. Don't queue.

Making allowances the other direction only promotes the problem.

The more important solution is to kick the fake tank and fake healers. This was posted by a player named Code not long ago.

If people start kicking them they will soon get annoyed with being kicked. Seems a much better approach than complaining in the forums. It does not take much to tank most normal dungeons. Slot the undaunted taunt and move on. Problem is literally solved.

A few weeks ago we had a fake healer in CoS. The player was also annoying. We were doing it as a random, but it was the pledge that day. We kicked him just before the last boss. We popped back into the queue and he was put into our group again. Kicked him once more.

Did last fight sans a healer. That guy kept whispering me all fuming. LOL

Edit; If you want to encourage more to queue up as a tank, do something about the all to regular bad DPS. That is the reason many do not queue up as a tank. It is just a bad experience to do so.

Sheezabeast

People will say anything and go to all lengths to justify line cutting and cheesing the system. I mean DPS that cry about wait time....you picked the most common role and you knowingly click tank and not DPS...and you wonder why people consider you to be a griefer. Waaaah it’s too hard to do my role, I’ll just make 3 other people suffer because my time is worth more than my teammates But but but you don’t need a tank for normal...this justification ignores the fact that tanks buff or rebuff the group and bosses, and provide crowd control methods....and line cutting on your DPS that won’t even slot a taunt takes this away from your group. Also people learning how to do dungeons on normal, learning their roles...they have to deal with your childish selfish crap? But but but if you don’t wanna deal with fake tanks use friends! Don’t come to the group finder that SPECIFIES what role to be had and actually carry my lying impatient ass, stick to your friends, because the same logic doesn’t apply to me nope nope!

AcadianPaladin

@Greenhere I agree. And yes, there are fake dds. They often simply spam light attack with bow and don't break 5-6k dps. I'm sensitive to it because I've worked very hard on a bowbow stamsorc who CAN deliver satisfactory dps for an intermediate player (+20k) with her dual bows.

My (real) tank hates fake dps and, to a lesser extent, fake healers. He can only heal himself and though he is nearly unkillable, his dps is negligible. Any boss that includes a dps check or high self-healing can get very frustrating since he has to rely on the dps to do damage. So yeah, he will only group with those he knows can deliver a reasonable level of dps (15k is fine) - enough to burn down a self-healing boss or keep respawning adds from overwhelming us. I'm convinced that fake dps is one big reason why so few real tanks pug - they absolutely need real dps from their group.

My main is a magplar healer that I actually call a Pug healer. She is built to instantly adjust to whatever group abilities she gets. She can absolutely deliver the spectrum of support one might expect from a full healer (without Combat Prayer which is a wasted slot with pugs) with incidental dps of +10K. If necessary, she can instantly ramp her dps up to over 15K at the expense of some uptime on her heals. Finally, if grouped with a fake tank, she cannot taunt but she can absolutely stand in the face of a boss and heal through his damage while sweeping him to death.

GreenHere

Starlock wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a tank, despite not really being one: Just slot a taunt, please. It's one skill slot. You can spare one. Do your group the bare minimum courtesy of keeping just the bosses in one place so we can all get on with our lives that much quicker. We all know more dps can be poured onto a boss if they're not moving all over the place, right? So do the group a solid, and keep em still. You signed up for that (and much more, but we'll settle for just holding still).

Addendum: Say nobody slots a taunt. It happens. If it's a normal dungeon where deviating from roles isn't likely to break your chances at clearing the content, stand still if you notice you are the one who has the boss's aggression. You don't need to run around like a mad fool, just stand still. It'll be okay. Really. You, or someone else in your group, probably has enough heals that you will be fine. Just. Please. Stand. Still. If your character relies on dodge rolling for mitigation, please do dodge roll, but then get that boss back in the same spot he was - right in the middle of you and your ally AoEs!

Alright, calm down! Now you're just being unreasonable! You want people to slot a taunt AND hold still in dungeons?! That's absurd! YOU ASK TOO MUCH, I SAY!! TOO MUCH!!

Where does it end? Next you'll tell me I'm expected to bring my own weapons into the dungeon just because I'm a damage dealer, huh? Pfft... You dang elitists, always placing such unrealistic standards on me.







(Just in case anyone's too dense to realize this, and the joke goes whooshing over their head: The above is facetious, and I agree with @Starlock. I just wanted to limit my request to one point per role. But the sort of common sense suggested would go a loooooooong way in PuGs.)

GreenHere

Here's what I don't get about the whole "fake damage dealers" thing...

What are they really? You think they're a healer or a tank, just trolling you? For what? The benefit of... long queue times? Horridly long and unpleasant dungeons? The joy of being scorned and ridiculed by the community? I don't understand. Are you convinced that the guy spamming light attacks is actually a decent player, but they just signed up to wait in line for a Damage role in a dungeon so that they could waste their time by wasting your time? It makes no sense to me; I just don't see it being the way people seem to assume it is.

So, if I'm right, then those "fake dds" just honestly suck at their job. And that's a bummer, for everyone. I don't dispute that. Having a super low damage player (or worse, multiple) in a group really drags things out. We agree, so far.

But there's a fundamental difference between not being good at your job despite showing up with a willingness to actually try to do it, and arrogantly shirking it off so that you can have an easier time than others.

If the damage dealers you're with are so terrible, maybe they just need some help. Or a little direction. Have you tried just politely talking to them? 20K+ dps doesn't just come naturally to everyone. And until you get into vet dungeons, there's no particular indication in the game that it's even a thing you need to aspire to. When I see laughably bad DDs, I usually extend a little friendly offer to see how receptive they are. There were a few times I got no response at all, but the vast majority usually have some variation of sincere gratitude that someone is finally willing to point them in the right direction to get better. On multiple occasions, I've been told I'm the first one to reach out with a helping hand instead of just being a ****. And I've seen the people being ****s to those new/bad players in chat, so I believe it. That attitude almost seems to be present in this very thread. It's sad.

"Fake" damage roles are usually just people who need a little compassion because they don't know what the hell they're doing. You don't hear these people on the forums making posts like, "lol, you don't need dps for this dungeon anyway, light attacks are plenty" like you see with actual queue jumping fakers. That attitude is pretty telling, to me; and dps never really seem to have it (in my experience, at least).


TL;DR :: As I've said before, in other threads; I think people are just getting too liberal with the "fake" label. Particularly with the DPS role. There's a meaningful difference between someone who doesn't think the job they signed up for is their responsibility, and someone who is honestly trying but simply isn't very good.

AcadianPaladin

Starlock wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a tank, despite not really being one: Just slot a taunt, please. It's one skill slot. You can spare one. Do your group the bare minimum courtesy of keeping just the bosses in one place so we can all get on with our lives that much quicker. We all know more dps can be poured onto a boss if they're not moving all over the place, right? So do the group a solid, and keep em still. You signed up for that (and much more, but we'll settle for just holding still).

Addendum: Say nobody slots a taunt. It happens. If it's a normal dungeon where deviating from roles isn't likely to break your chances at clearing the content, stand still if you notice you are the one who has the boss's aggression. You don't need to run around like a mad fool, just stand still. It'll be okay. Really. You, or someone else in your group, probably has enough heals that you will be fine. Just. Please. Stand. Still. If your character relies on dodge rolling for mitigation, please do dodge roll, but then get that boss back in the same spot he was - right in the middle of you and your ally AoEs!

Gosh, I sure do agree with this. Even if you have a real tank, don't kite around in a panic; rather, lead the foe in your face back to the tank. My characters include a bowbow stamsorc, bowbow stamblade, dps magsorc, dps magblade - and none of them run around when they draw aggro. If solo, even my bowbow girls stay put to hold the boss in her hailcaltrops killing zone.

GreenHere

Sheezabeast wrote: »

People will say anything and go to all lengths to justify line cutting and cheesing the system. I mean DPS that cry about wait time....you picked the most common role and you knowingly click tank and not DPS...and you wonder why people consider you to be a griefer. Waaaah it’s too hard to do my role, I’ll just make 3 other people suffer because my time is worth more than my teammates But but but you don’t need a tank for normal...this justification ignores the fact that tanks buff or rebuff the group and bosses, and provide crowd control methods....and line cutting on your DPS that won’t even slot a taunt takes this away from your group. Also people learning how to do dungeons on normal, learning their roles...they have to deal with your childish selfish crap? But but but if you don’t wanna deal with fake tanks use friends! Don’t come to the group finder that SPECIFIES what role to be had and actually carry my lying impatient ass, stick to your friends, because the same logic doesn’t apply to me nope nope!

It's kind of amazing how people who are clearly capable of such mental gymnastics are simultaneously unable to find a way to work one simple skill into their setup, isn't it? All the other stuff aside, this aspect of it all is kind of funny though.

I share your frustration, @Sheezabeast.

Sheezabeast

GreenHere wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

People will say anything and go to all lengths to justify line cutting and cheesing the system. I mean DPS that cry about wait time....you picked the most common role and you knowingly click tank and not DPS...and you wonder why people consider you to be a griefer. Waaaah it’s too hard to do my role, I’ll just make 3 other people suffer because my time is worth more than my teammates But but but you don’t need a tank for normal...this justification ignores the fact that tanks buff or rebuff the group and bosses, and provide crowd control methods....and line cutting on your DPS that won’t even slot a taunt takes this away from your group. Also people learning how to do dungeons on normal, learning their roles...they have to deal with your childish selfish crap? But but but if you don’t wanna deal with fake tanks use friends! Don’t come to the group finder that SPECIFIES what role to be had and actually carry my lying impatient ass, stick to your friends, because the same logic doesn’t apply to me nope nope!

It's kind of amazing how people who are clearly capable of such mental gymnastics are simultaneously unable to find a way to work one simple skill into their setup, isn't it? All the other stuff aside, this aspect of it all is kind of funny though.

I share your frustration, @Sheezabeast.

When no one holds aggro, the boss gets moved around too much when people kite it, it messes with aoe and healing and makes for a frustrating experience. I would 100% of the time rather get stuck with a bad tank than a fake tank.

ZeroXFF

GreenHere wrote: »

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer...

That's where you're wrong. Just today I queued for vWGT and got in with a "damage dealer" with 30k HP (without food!!) and 1 hand and shield as main weapon. And yeah, he was trying to be a DD, because when I told him to go tank if he's in a tank build already, and I myself switched to DPS gear since we don't need 2 tanks, he wasn't taunting. At all. The first boss was on me all the time. Needless to say a kick followed. But yeah, fake DDs do exist.

GreenHere

ZeroXFF wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer...

That's where you're wrong. Just today I queued for vWGT and got in with a "damage dealer" with 30k HP (without food!!) and 1 hand and shield as main weapon. And yeah, he was trying to be a DD, because when I told him to go tank if he's in a tank build already, and I myself switched to DPS gear since we don't need 2 tanks, he wasn't taunting. At all. The first boss was on me all the time. Needless to say a kick followed. But yeah, fake DDs do exist.

Jeez, that does sound rough. I try to spend as little time as possible in the finder nowadays so maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to think that's super uncommon... right? Why on Nirn would a tank join as a dps?

Glad y'all were able to kick them. I tend to agree that's the solution when a party member is a problem. When it's possible to do so, anyway.

ZeroXFF

GreenHere wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer...

That's where you're wrong. Just today I queued for vWGT and got in with a "damage dealer" with 30k HP (without food!!) and 1 hand and shield as main weapon. And yeah, he was trying to be a DD, because when I told him to go tank if he's in a tank build already, and I myself switched to DPS gear since we don't need 2 tanks, he wasn't taunting. At all. The first boss was on me all the time. Needless to say a kick followed. But yeah, fake DDs do exist.

Jeez, that does sound rough. I try to spend as little time as possible in the finder nowadays so maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to think that's super uncommon... right? Why on Nirn would a tank join as a dps?

Glad y'all were able to kick them. I tend to agree that's the solution when a party member is a problem. When it's possible to do so, anyway.

Well, in this case it was obvious that he wasn't a DD because he had something that looked like he would have been somewhat effective as a tank if he bothered to slot a taunt, but he decided to queue for a role that he is not effective at. But if there is someone whose build is equally suitable for DPS as this tank's build was, how is it not also a "fake DD" regardless of his (in-)effectiveness in other roles?

Gatviper

You've got to understand, it's largely an issue with people not logging in to the game for more than 2-4 hours a day, due to various real-life worries, like work, family etc. Now, back in the day when MMORPGs were just starting out as the next big thing, people used to be more passionate about them and neglecting much else for the game, going on huge guild raid meetings and all. Those who played Everquest I back in the day surely remember.
But now with so many similar games available now and nothing really new anymore, most don't bother as much anymore, and the developing scene turned along with the players, adapting more to the casual game style, for financial reasons. This in turn causes more and more people not bother as much with optimising their characters to the top notch to perform at their best, because, frankly, there's really not that much need for it anymore. All you need to perform quite decently is slap on some crafted gear, and you're fine for most of the game.

You simply don't get penalized for not going for the better performance anymore, what's with all the easy-mode gameplay available for everyone. Mounts? Crown shop at fastest, stables for the lazy. Nevermind getting special mount rewards from completing hard dungeons, like in some older games, ESO doesn't have that.
Good appearance? Crownshop offers lots of it, here and there. Gear? Crafted, or guild shops. Housing? Don't need to be top fighting character for that, and many actually do go for the decorating gameplay now that it's available in ESO, with some crafting mats gathering in-between and / or selling them. Overland isn't much of a challenge even for the lowest characters anyway, if you can stay out of world bosses spots.
Endgame? Mildly interesting, but there's just no time, imagined reasoning being, let others focus on that.

While you do get somewhat better gear in dungeons, most people just don't feel they need to worry. There's just not much worthwhile rewards from that, aside of the gear, and useless achievements. That in turn leads to many people attempting harder activities without realising they have to actually work on their character more than casually to actually be good in them.
It's largely a social thing, with game developers + casual player, and hardcore players going separate ways, and while it's not just in ESO like that, this game is producing larger and larger gap between both sides. Best you can do, either try to communicate with players who don't know how to play their role (and deal with many toxic responses), or give up and try the rough group kick. It might work, or not.

D0PAMINE

@GreenHere To reply to your post reguarding fake dps, while running vARX HM we had a dps with DW and an Ice Staff (who hit the scroll without asking anyone, it wasnt a pledge), I stopped rezing him and had to litterally spam the boss with DK Chains until it was dead. The fight took 10 minutes which is absurd. Im vote kicking if I ever have to go through that again. I agree with your post and people need to be considerate of other group members.

Jeremy

idk wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a role, despite not really being one:

Here are your two options

1. Do so with a premade
2. Don't queue.

Making allowances the other direction only promotes the problem.

The more important solution is to kick the fake tank and fake healers. This was posted by a player named Code not long ago.

If people start kicking them they will soon get annoyed with being kicked. Seems a much better approach than complaining in the forums. It does not take much to tank most normal dungeons. Slot the undaunted taunt and move on. Problem is literally solved.

A few weeks ago we had a fake healer in CoS. The player was also annoying. We were doing it as a random, but it was the pledge that day. We kicked him just before the last boss. We popped back into the queue and he was put into our group again. Kicked him once more.

Did last fight sans a healer. That guy kept whispering me all fuming. LOL

Edit; If you want to encourage more to queue up as a tank, do something about the all to regular bad DPS. That is the reason many do not queue up as a tank. It is just a bad experience to do so.

Curious, but if he/she was a fake healer how did you make to the last boss on Cradle of Shadows? Assuming you was doing veteran mode. Did you all just start healing yourselves? Or was it a normal dungeon?

Jeremy

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If you're gonna queue as a tank, despite not really being one: Just slot a taunt, please. It's one skill slot. You can spare one. Do your group the bare minimum courtesy of keeping just the bosses in one place so we can all get on with our lives that much quicker. We all know more dps can be poured onto a boss if they're not moving all over the place, right? So do the group a solid, and keep em still. You signed up for that (and much more, but we'll settle for just holding still).

Addendum: Say nobody slots a taunt. It happens. If it's a normal dungeon where deviating from roles isn't likely to break your chances at clearing the content, stand still if you notice you are the one who has the boss's aggression. You don't need to run around like a mad fool, just stand still. It'll be okay. Really. You, or someone else in your group, probably has enough heals that you will be fine. Just. Please. Stand. Still. If your character relies on dodge rolling for mitigation, please do dodge roll, but then get that boss back in the same spot he was - right in the middle of you and your ally AoEs!

Gosh, I sure do agree with this. Even if you have a real tank, don't kite around in a panic; rather, lead the foe in your face back to the tank. My characters include a bowbow stamsorc, bowbow stamblade, dps magsorc, dps magblade - and none of them run around when they draw aggro. If solo, even my bowbow girls stay put to hold the boss in her hailcaltrops killing zone.

That's just it. It's the kiting I won't put up with. Even if the tank sucks... so long as he/she is actually trying to tank and is taunting the bosses I'm willing to go down with the ship. But I draw the line at having a tank who runs away like a child covered in spiders every time a mob comes after them. That's not tanking. That's not even bad tanking. That's just lying about being a tank.

I want to be clear - there are too many players on this game who are full of themselves and like to kick other players simply for not measuring up to their so-called standards. That I do not support.

For example: I was doing Veteran Bloodroot Forge the other day and there was this DPS who would not stop trying to kick our tank, who wasn't even that bad. Was he/she the greatest tank ever? No. He/she occasionally missed a block and sometimes was a little slow on positioning and picking up mobs. But that does not = "fake tank" and certainly didn't justify a kick.

Eventually the DPS ended up leaving the group after I refused like a half dozen kicks and we went on to win the dungeon with his replacement. And I see this happen a lot.

Girl_Number8

Doesn't really matter unless it is on one of the hard vet dungeons. If you get a bad group, leave it if you are not happy. Other then that put some effort into making a decent group with your friends or members of your guild. If you can't do that much, then it's on you. Eso is a social game not a job.

Also, be sure to have a real dps, tanky, and healer yourself. It helps your group if you ever need to switch a position. Good luck~

Jeremy

ZeroXFF wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer...

That's where you're wrong. Just today I queued for vWGT and got in with a "damage dealer" with 30k HP (without food!!) and 1 hand and shield as main weapon. And yeah, he was trying to be a DD, because when I told him to go tank if he's in a tank build already, and I myself switched to DPS gear since we don't need 2 tanks, he wasn't taunting. At all. The first boss was on me all the time. Needless to say a kick followed. But yeah, fake DDs do exist.

Jeez, that does sound rough. I try to spend as little time as possible in the finder nowadays so maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to think that's super uncommon... right? Why on Nirn would a tank join as a dps?

Glad y'all were able to kick them. I tend to agree that's the solution when a party member is a problem. When it's possible to do so, anyway.

Well, in this case it was obvious that he wasn't a DD because he had something that looked like he would have been somewhat effective as a tank if he bothered to slot a taunt, but he decided to queue for a role that he is not effective at. But if there is someone whose build is equally suitable for DPS as this tank's build was, how is it not also a "fake DD" regardless of his (in-)effectiveness in other roles?

The difference is even if he had a bad build - if he was actually focusing on doing damage in the group then he wasn't necessarily a fake damage dealer. He was just a bad damage dealer. There's a difference.

A fake tank is a player who doesn't even attempt to tank, taunts nothing, and plays just like a damage dealer would -because that's what he/she actually is. So I would not dismiss someone as a fake damage-dealer simply because they had 30k health and were using a sword and shield. While certainly not optimal for damage-dealing, I imagine with a good rotation they could still at least do mediocre damage. Though if he was hindering the group from progressing I could understand your group opting to remove them, but I"m more forgiving them most.

The only time I've ever seen an actual fake DD was a player one time in WTG who spent the whole run casting heals instead of doing damage to anything.

witchdoctor

I take solace in the karma when the fake healer (a DPS with Vigor-they-still-cannot-be-arsed-to-use) dies ... from not using Vigor.

phaneub17_ESO

It'll never happen, but I like to see...

1. At least 1 Class Skill, preferably a range spell, have a Morph that also Taunts. Likely candidates would be Molten Whip, Vampire's Bane, Daedric Prey, Debilitate, and Growing Swarm.

2. More Class Skills that have a morph with the "Heal Other" mechanic much like Obsidian Shard and Funnel Health. Crystal Blast morph could for example apply a heal over time to you or an ally equal to 40% of the damage done over 4 seconds.

3. Defensive Skills with more hybrid bonuses, while not always a damage boost but at least some utility that non-tanks would be interested in using it in their arsenal.

eliisra

GreenHere wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

And if you're queueing up to do damage: Well, I'm not sure you can be a "fake" damage dealer...

That's where you're wrong. Just today I queued for vWGT and got in with a "damage dealer" with 30k HP (without food!!) and 1 hand and shield as main weapon. And yeah, he was trying to be a DD, because when I told him to go tank if he's in a tank build already, and I myself switched to DPS gear since we don't need 2 tanks, he wasn't taunting. At all. The first boss was on me all the time. Needless to say a kick followed. But yeah, fake DDs do exist.

Jeez, that does sound rough. I try to spend as little time as possible in the finder nowadays so maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to think that's super uncommon... right? Why on Nirn would a tank join as a dps?

Glad y'all were able to kick them. I tend to agree that's the solution when a party member is a problem. When it's possible to do so, anyway.

It's not super uncommon. I've encountered my fair share of 30k+ HP dps using sword&shield and other horrifying examples.

It's not really PvE tanks joining as damage dealers though. It's more often players that's using some defense oriented solo PvE&PvP build, that's far to tanky to fulfill the dps role. When they do it because they're lazy, entitled and can't be bother making a proper PvE dps build, I do think they qualify as fake dps.

It's of course a different story if a person actually tries to make a dps build and still fails, because lacks knowledge and experience. Than it's unfair to call him or her fake dps.

I also encountered "fake tanks", that weren't actually fake or trying to cheat the queue. They just didn't know what the hell they where doing in terms of builds and skills. Normally lower level or newer players though, trying out tanking.

But yeah, if someone is doing the very best they can, but fails for other reasons, they shouldn't be slapped with the "fake" label imo.