MagDK sustain nerf

sandelius

Am I missing something or is MagDK getting sustain nerfed? How on earth is that even remotely ok?

AlexTheLion

Yeah honestly it’s really stupid and unneeded. Apparently they wanted to put power lash more in line with merciless and frags, but those are both range abilities that do insane amounts of damage and don’t really require anything to get. Power lash you have to be melee, which is gonna be 1M less in murkmire, and they have to be off balance.

kojou

I don't agree with it either, but realistically it isn't a lot of magicka...

It would have been nice if it was accompanied with a symbolic buff to battle roar to compensate.

IZZEFlameLash

kojou wrote: »

I don't agree with it either, but realistically it isn't a lot of magicka...

It would have been nice if it was accompanied with a symbolic buff to battle roar to compensate.

It is a lot of magicka given how much other skills in DK's arsenal costs. DKs already run low a lot faster than other classes just to maintain the same level of offense as the other classes do. This will burden DKs with another 1k which is your regen basically without sacrificing too much damage that will end up costing you more. DKs already have harder time sustaining even with Lich and this will make sure that they don't sustain at all. With Power Lash cost change, whip cost is now 3k+ for a single target, melee range, very dodgeable on both but don't deal as much damage as Frag does. It is not good. You will whiff and get charged resource. You can barely secure a kill because of dodging and with this, prolonging the fight means no magicka left in DK.

kojou

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

StShoot

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Yeah at the moment it is 2-2,5k but with the new change you have to spend 1-1,25 for the powerlash, witch is now for free.

It is never ideal to sustain over your ultimate, mDK is missing an execute so you need the additional dmg to kill the enemy, you only use your ultimate to sustain as a last way out and even than it only prolongs your death because its a signal to the enemy that you are low on ressources

Regarding bloodspawn, its a nice set and i still use it on my dk but with all the bleeding/ oblivion dmg i sometimes feel like. it would better to change it for skoria (To make up for some of the dmg that the dk lost when the lash got dodgeable) or even trollking (so i dont need to spend too much magica on healing)

Xvorg

AlexTheLion wrote: »

Yeah honestly it’s really stupid and unneeded. Apparently they wanted to put power lash more in line with merciless and frags, but those are both range abilities that do insane amounts of damage and don’t really require anything to get. Power lash you have to be melee, which is gonna be 1M less in murkmire, and they have to be off balance.

On HA you need 10~14k magicka to proc flame lash... and it doesn't grant you it will hit.

But it's balanced...

Xvorg

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

BlackMadara

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

IZZEFlameLash

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

Illuvatarr

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

IZZEFlameLash

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

And here you are, playing 'no talent' ranged and crying about it.

BlackMadara

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Xvorg

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

What range DPS? Full heavy lit staff with Armamaments up? I have a build around that, and what kills is neither the skoria proc nor the 40% extra dmg full heavy attack. What kills is the oblivion glyph on a infused torugs lit staf and the proc of Knight slayer.

And you know? I'll do it much better on a magblade, since minor berserk not only buffs the full heavy attack, but also each proc (the oblivion glyph, skoria and KS). So saying DK has a insane range DPS is just another lie.

No passive in the DK tooltip increases the flame dmg.

Xvorg

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Ok, let me explain you something: DK has only ONE DOT, called searing strike which now has a 7mts range... sure, super powerful dot (mitigated by BS, armor/spell res, debuffs, etc).
All the other dots are very bad. Breath is very clunky and it's dmg is plainly lackluster. Talons is one of the most expesive skills in the game. Hardened armor Dot is easily negligible, and don't even think about eruption, which is plainly bad.

In live, Burning ticks for around 500 hit points. That's on a dunmer DK with 2800 spell dmg and 34k magicka. My tooltip says around 2k but you know, those 2 K are halved, and then reduce again to around 50% again. In PvP, your tooltip does around 25% dmg unless you are going against potatoes.

Those are the "powerful dots" of DK. Any bleed outclasses the DoTs of the DoT class, Sload outclasses any DK DoT and is available to everyone.

Now about your suggestion on building around DoTs, how many DoTs do you think you can put on a mDK bar?

You need:
one spammable, one CC, one heal, one mitigation tool and the Ultimate. That leaves you ONE DOT, and if you have to chose, you go with embers.

So everything you say about "playing around to the strenghts of the class" is a big lie. Ok, maybe you refer to PvE, but here we are not talking about hitting dolls. Whatever you use to hit a doll is gonna be OK, you just need to learn how and when you have to hit, and you will realize that even a broom can do it.

BlackMadara

Xvorg wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Ok, let me explain you something: DK has only ONE DOT, called searing strike which now has a 7mts range... sure, super powerful dot (mitigated by BS, armor/spell res, debuffs, etc).
All the other dots are very bad. Breath is very clunky and it's dmg is plainly lackluster. Talons is one of the most expesive skills in the game. Hardened armor Dot is easily negligible, and don't even think about eruption, which is plainly bad.

In live, Burning ticks for around 500 hit points. That's on a dunmer DK with 2800 spell dmg and 34k magicka. My tooltip says around 2k but you know, those 2 K are halved, and then reduce again to around 50% again. In PvP, your tooltip does around 25% dmg unless you are going against potatoes.

Those are the "powerful dots" of DK. Any bleed outclasses the DoTs of the DoT class, Sload outclasses any DK DoT and is available to everyone.

Now about your suggestion on building around DoTs, how many DoTs do you think you can put on a mDK bar?

You need:
one spammable, one CC, one heal, one mitigation tool and the Ultimate. That leaves you ONE DOT, and if you have to chose, you go with embers.

So everything you say about "playing around to the strenghts of the class" is a big lie. Ok, maybe you refer to PvE, but here we are not talking about hitting dolls. Whatever you use to hit a doll is gonna be OK, you just need to learn how and when you have to hit, and you will realize that even a broom can do it.

I am talking PVP.

So for your points:

As far as bleeds go, the real issue are master's rending buff and the free bleeds you can get from axes (coming up next patch, rending's interaction with enchants is scary too).

On a night blade with 5000 WD and 38000 stam rending will do about 770 damage per tick alone (calc based on eso build editor). On mDK with 3500 SD, 38k mag, 8k pen vs 28k spell resists (LA, CP), embers will do about 630 damage per tick. This is with battle spirit factored with both set ups having their associated procs active (alchemist, BSW respectively). Before you go into an arguement against these theoretical set ups, they are just what I use to calc potential burst I need to mitigate (clever NB) and my own damage potential (BSW DK).

Embers had the added effect of giving a substantial burst heal, powerful effect.

Breath, while clunky, also comes with 10% more fire damage. That is massive no matter how you look at it. The burst potential you gain while having breath on target is massive and I fit it on my bar always.

Volatile armor dot is pretty weak but it cost little and I'm going to have it up anyway for resists.

I prefer choking talons over burning unless running riposte. I agree that the cost is not worth the damage for burning talons.

I appreciate my 500 dmg burning ticks as the free damage they are. Not the best but still significant imo.

Other skill dots/bleeds also come with their own positive effects but one must look at all fairly for comparison.

Strengths of the class aren't just dots. I mentioned other factors as well in the previous post. I personally like the dot -> stackable burst combo I currently run. I find it effective and enjoy improving and adapting my play as i get better. There are 4 other offensive playstyles I've given thought to utilizing the mDK kit effectively but I enjoy the current one I have now.

Is mDK the best spec for open world? No. Can it work? Yes. BGs? Yes. Duels? Yes etc.

I love mDK (kind of only class I play) and it's not nearly as bad as some people like to say, but can definitely use some improvements. My only objective here is to give a compelling argument for the positives in the class. I could further discuss negatives but tired of seeing people complain about them or give false info.

ak_pvp

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Its not a game breaking nerf, no.
However my whip is 2.4k, so half is 1.2k I am powerlashing at least every 6s usually, so that is a 400 regen equivalent loss. For reference, combustion is a 200 regen equiv max. (Actually around 40 in PvP lul) This is quite a hit to the class with one of the worst main stat sustains in game. (Considering setups, high ability costs, weird passives, unreliable heavy attacks)

Xvorg

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Ok, let me explain you something: DK has only ONE DOT, called searing strike which now has a 7mts range... sure, super powerful dot (mitigated by BS, armor/spell res, debuffs, etc).
All the other dots are very bad. Breath is very clunky and it's dmg is plainly lackluster. Talons is one of the most expesive skills in the game. Hardened armor Dot is easily negligible, and don't even think about eruption, which is plainly bad.

In live, Burning ticks for around 500 hit points. That's on a dunmer DK with 2800 spell dmg and 34k magicka. My tooltip says around 2k but you know, those 2 K are halved, and then reduce again to around 50% again. In PvP, your tooltip does around 25% dmg unless you are going against potatoes.

Those are the "powerful dots" of DK. Any bleed outclasses the DoTs of the DoT class, Sload outclasses any DK DoT and is available to everyone.

Now about your suggestion on building around DoTs, how many DoTs do you think you can put on a mDK bar?

You need:
one spammable, one CC, one heal, one mitigation tool and the Ultimate. That leaves you ONE DOT, and if you have to chose, you go with embers.

So everything you say about "playing around to the strenghts of the class" is a big lie. Ok, maybe you refer to PvE, but here we are not talking about hitting dolls. Whatever you use to hit a doll is gonna be OK, you just need to learn how and when you have to hit, and you will realize that even a broom can do it.

I am talking PVP.

So for your points:

As far as bleeds go, the real issue are master's rending buff and the free bleeds you can get from axes (coming up next patch, rending's interaction with enchants is scary too).

On a night blade with 5000 WD and 38000 stam rending will do about 770 damage per tick alone (calc based on eso build editor). On mDK with 3500 SD, 38k mag, 8k pen vs 28k spell resists (LA, CP), embers will do about 630 damage per tick. This is with battle spirit factored with both set ups having their associated procs active (alchemist, BSW respectively). Before you go into an arguement against these theoretical set ups, they are just what I use to calc potential burst I need to mitigate (clever NB) and my own damage potential (BSW DK).

Embers had the added effect of giving a substantial burst heal, powerful effect.

Breath, while clunky, also comes with 10% more fire damage. That is massive no matter how you look at it. The burst potential you gain while having breath on target is massive and I fit it on my bar always.

Volatile armor dot is pretty weak but it cost little and I'm going to have it up anyway for resists.

I prefer choking talons over burning unless running riposte. I agree that the cost is not worth the damage for burning talons.

I appreciate my 500 dmg burning ticks as the free damage they are. Not the best but still significant imo.

Other skill dots/bleeds also come with their own positive effects but one must look at all fairly for comparison.

Strengths of the class aren't just dots. I mentioned other factors as well in the previous post. I personally like the dot -> stackable burst combo I currently run. I find it effective and enjoy improving and adapting my play as i get better. There are 4 other offensive playstyles I've given thought to utilizing the mDK kit effectively but I enjoy the current one I have now.

Is mDK the best spec for open world? No. Can it work? Yes. BGs? Yes. Duels? Yes etc.

I love mDK (kind of only class I play) and it's not nearly as bad as some people like to say, but can definitely use some improvements. My only objective here is to give a compelling argument for the positives in the class. I could further discuss negatives but tired of seeing people complain about them or give false info.

Ok, I'm gona make it easier for you, whatever you use for PvP build around dot's is gona be better than DK.

Sure, your NB does less dmg on the Burning effect, but NBs can also stack much more burst dmg than DK at 0 cost, that makes NBs much more efficient since the big burst comes or on a ranged skill, or through invis (outta nowhere). DK? Flame lash proc can be seen from Daggerfall all the way to Sadrith Mora. It is predictable and slow. If I set you off balance with a DK you will obviously dodge roll and that implies a wasted skill. Sure, ZoS promised a change to Dodge roll, but that doesn't compensate the fact that, if my enemy dodged my flame lash, now I have to wait 3 seconds to use it again and if the off balance goes waya I need to use 10K magicka again to set all the conditions for the burst.

Now, on your BSW suggestion, can't you see that being forced to use a set to get somewhat decent dmg input isn't a smart design? As a NB I can use 6 or 7 different builds, why do DKs have to use only one set to get the dmg input others get with any other set? Because it procs spell dmg on a random basis? When BSW came out i felt that it was like throwing a die to get what other classes get by using skills. The feeling it's still the same. To build around randomness to be competitive in PvP is just mediocre. If we are going to support mediocrity, then it's OK, DKs are in a good spot, with items doing what minds and hands should do.

Regarding your last point. If I want to build a NB for duels, or open world or BGS, I can. If I want to build a sorc or a templar, I can do that too. Why do DK must be good in some aspects of the game while failing in the very one this game made me play is something I won't ever support. I don't like BGS, I don't like Duelling, so I'm ***?

RamiroCruzo

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

*hands bottle of milk* Don't cry lil sorc suckling =^_^=

1. "burst for more damage than pretty much any class": What is mDKs burst? 14k (Yes, assuming a fully buffed Siroria mDK is hitting you) Power Lash? Stamblade will roll dodge, Magblade/Magsorc got shield, burst gone, which took a CC, then a Whip to proc. Then our beloved Dragon Dunk, with changes to evasion, it'll hit 25% less hard which barely used to ht anyone thanks to roll dodge or just shield and block.
2. "bsw and Valkyn skoria": Available to all classes.
3. "no talent class full of board whiners": Thanks Explains our current condition, either played by RPers or my fanatics who somehow manage to wreck people like you.

Juhasow

7 meters burning embers new meta as spammable.

BlackMadara

Xvorg wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Ok, let me explain you something: DK has only ONE DOT, called searing strike which now has a 7mts range... sure, super powerful dot (mitigated by BS, armor/spell res, debuffs, etc).
All the other dots are very bad. Breath is very clunky and it's dmg is plainly lackluster. Talons is one of the most expesive skills in the game. Hardened armor Dot is easily negligible, and don't even think about eruption, which is plainly bad.

In live, Burning ticks for around 500 hit points. That's on a dunmer DK with 2800 spell dmg and 34k magicka. My tooltip says around 2k but you know, those 2 K are halved, and then reduce again to around 50% again. In PvP, your tooltip does around 25% dmg unless you are going against potatoes.

Those are the "powerful dots" of DK. Any bleed outclasses the DoTs of the DoT class, Sload outclasses any DK DoT and is available to everyone.

Now about your suggestion on building around DoTs, how many DoTs do you think you can put on a mDK bar?

You need:
one spammable, one CC, one heal, one mitigation tool and the Ultimate. That leaves you ONE DOT, and if you have to chose, you go with embers.

So everything you say about "playing around to the strenghts of the class" is a big lie. Ok, maybe you refer to PvE, but here we are not talking about hitting dolls. Whatever you use to hit a doll is gonna be OK, you just need to learn how and when you have to hit, and you will realize that even a broom can do it.

I am talking PVP.

So for your points:

As far as bleeds go, the real issue are master's rending buff and the free bleeds you can get from axes (coming up next patch, rending's interaction with enchants is scary too).

On a night blade with 5000 WD and 38000 stam rending will do about 770 damage per tick alone (calc based on eso build editor). On mDK with 3500 SD, 38k mag, 8k pen vs 28k spell resists (LA, CP), embers will do about 630 damage per tick. This is with battle spirit factored with both set ups having their associated procs active (alchemist, BSW respectively). Before you go into an arguement against these theoretical set ups, they are just what I use to calc potential burst I need to mitigate (clever NB) and my own damage potential (BSW DK).

Embers had the added effect of giving a substantial burst heal, powerful effect.

Breath, while clunky, also comes with 10% more fire damage. That is massive no matter how you look at it. The burst potential you gain while having breath on target is massive and I fit it on my bar always.

Volatile armor dot is pretty weak but it cost little and I'm going to have it up anyway for resists.

I prefer choking talons over burning unless running riposte. I agree that the cost is not worth the damage for burning talons.

I appreciate my 500 dmg burning ticks as the free damage they are. Not the best but still significant imo.

Other skill dots/bleeds also come with their own positive effects but one must look at all fairly for comparison.

Strengths of the class aren't just dots. I mentioned other factors as well in the previous post. I personally like the dot -> stackable burst combo I currently run. I find it effective and enjoy improving and adapting my play as i get better. There are 4 other offensive playstyles I've given thought to utilizing the mDK kit effectively but I enjoy the current one I have now.

Is mDK the best spec for open world? No. Can it work? Yes. BGs? Yes. Duels? Yes etc.

I love mDK (kind of only class I play) and it's not nearly as bad as some people like to say, but can definitely use some improvements. My only objective here is to give a compelling argument for the positives in the class. I could further discuss negatives but tired of seeing people complain about them or give false info.

Ok, I'm gona make it easier for you, whatever you use for PvP build around dot's is gona be better than DK.

Sure, your NB does less dmg on the Burning effect, but NBs can also stack much more burst dmg than DK at 0 cost, that makes NBs much more efficient since the big burst comes or on a ranged skill, or through invis (outta nowhere). DK? Flame lash proc can be seen from Daggerfall all the way to Sadrith Mora. It is predictable and slow. If I set you off balance with a DK you will obviously dodge roll and that implies a wasted skill. Sure, ZoS promised a change to Dodge roll, but that doesn't compensate the fact that, if my enemy dodged my flame lash, now I have to wait 3 seconds to use it again and if the off balance goes waya I need to use 10K magicka again to set all the conditions for the burst.

Now, on your BSW suggestion, can't you see that being forced to use a set to get somewhat decent dmg input isn't a smart design? As a NB I can use 6 or 7 different builds, why do DKs have to use only one set to get the dmg input others get with any other set? Because it procs spell dmg on a random basis? When BSW came out i felt that it was like throwing a die to get what other classes get by using skills. The feeling it's still the same. To build around randomness to be competitive in PvP is just mediocre. If we are going to support mediocrity, then it's OK, DKs are in a good spot, with items doing what minds and hands should do.

Regarding your last point. If I want to build a NB for duels, or open world or BGS, I can. If I want to build a sorc or a templar, I can do that too. Why do DK must be good in some aspects of the game while failing in the very one this game made me play is something I won't ever support. I don't like BGS, I don't like Duelling, so I'm ***?

DK and NB can stack similar amounts of burst damage into a combo, the difference between the two are NB have passives more relegated to said burst damage.

Agreed on set up of power lash. Currently working on my combo to work around that. It's not like DK is the only class with this issue. You see mag temp and sorc combo coming from a mile away. At this point, I can tell when any stamina spec is going for the normal DB burst combo. Only class that has a true advantage in this aspect is NB from stealth. A better arguement would be the the amount of invested set up mDK has to contribute compared to other classes. Warden presses shalk, sorc casts curse/any othe spells for frag proc, temp presses backlash, nb la with until bow up or attacks from stealth, etc. While mDK needs off balance, best way is to cc and whip. Longer or more costly set up compared to others, which is why I disagree with the power lash cost increase.

BSW isnt the only viable damage set up, it is still one of the best. In terms of combat value, spinner, and julianos have near equal value in their stats, with the average uptime of BSW balancing them out. Axiom is actually better.

I have done an analysis of the stats they offer to prove this. It's pretty simple. Using the stats you get from a normal 2 3 4 piece bonus as the standard, I just assign how much value each set gives compared to its associated standard. I also did this for every other stat source in the game. In conclusion, sustain and defensive sets are more efficient than damage when comparing the best of the best. Damage enchants are more efficient than regen or cost reduction enchants as well. Just food for thought.

I prefer BSW due to the increased chance to proc burning and having a set burst window with the playstyle that I had in mind. It's just the best fit for the way I pvp.

You or I could make an argument for every spec in every aspect of the game and that would take up a lot of text space. At the end if the day some perform better in areas than others, some are more efficient in more areas than others (mostly due to class mechanics and not numbers). That's how it is and how it always will be. Complete homogeneity isnt possible unless all classes had access to the same skills.

I like you Xvorg. You have valid points and I have used you as reference for a lot of what I do with mDK. I disagree with the pessimism. I'm just a glass half full kind of guy.

ak_pvp

Juhasow wrote: »

7 meters burning embers new meta as spammable.

I honestly was thinking of it after seeing from masels SDK that it deals its first dot tick after 0.5s, so within the gcd.
On my build its 67% of a non power whip damage. Its half the cost (1.2k v 2.4k) and it has a base heal of 75% of damage dealt pre buffs or crit.
Since attempting to use powerlash on 75% of builds nowadays is frankly depressing between the immune people, the setup which basically screams roll me pls and the cost of the setup, (which was balanced by the free lash but not anymore) I am starting to think its not worth it vs many classes. You do lose the offbalance buff from lash though, so 10% less dmg.

It might honestly be viable, I could use the extra slot on something like magelight or engulfing for more dmg. Looks cool too.

Illuvatarr

RamiroCruzo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

*hands bottle of milk* Don't cry lil sorc suckling =^_^=

1. "burst for more damage than pretty much any class": What is mDKs burst? 14k (Yes, assuming a fully buffed Siroria mDK is hitting you) Power Lash? Stamblade will roll dodge, Magblade/Magsorc got shield, burst gone, which took a CC, then a Whip to proc. Then our beloved Dragon Dunk, with changes to evasion, it'll hit 25% less hard which barely used to ht anyone thanks to roll dodge or just shield and block.
2. "bsw and Valkyn skoria": Available to all classes.
3. "no talent class full of board whiners": Thanks Explains our current condition, either played by RPers or my fanatics who somehow manage to wreck people like you.

If you ever lose to any class 1v1 except a stamden or stamplar you are playing the class wrong. Plain and simple.

lucky_Sage

Because Zos likes to do the blanket changes to similar abilities without thinking even beucase 2 classes are different and will affect each in a different way. But I just gave up on post stuff about there changes like this one because they don't care about our ideas they just want pain points so they can keep doing these awful blanket changes and why does it not sound like a good idea to nerf the sustain of a sustain class that has the worst sustain

IZZEFlameLash

Illuvatarr wrote: »

RamiroCruzo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

*hands bottle of milk* Don't cry lil sorc suckling =^_^=

1. "burst for more damage than pretty much any class": What is mDKs burst? 14k (Yes, assuming a fully buffed Siroria mDK is hitting you) Power Lash? Stamblade will roll dodge, Magblade/Magsorc got shield, burst gone, which took a CC, then a Whip to proc. Then our beloved Dragon Dunk, with changes to evasion, it'll hit 25% less hard which barely used to ht anyone thanks to roll dodge or just shield and block.
2. "bsw and Valkyn skoria": Available to all classes.
3. "no talent class full of board whiners": Thanks Explains our current condition, either played by RPers or my fanatics who somehow manage to wreck people like you.

If you ever lose to any class 1v1 except a stamden or stamplar you are playing the class wrong. Plain and simple.

So you must be playing it wrong then also. A truly good Sorc would not lose to mDK and get salty and post his salt on forums.

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Give me a good reason to build around DoTs when mDK DoTs happen to be the most mitigated and laughable damage source. Putting 72 in Thau won't change much. If it was like a bleed, sure DK will be very OP. But it is not like bleed. Properly built dps builds only take what 700 at the most? Compare that to Masters DW bleed that goes above and beyond. No reason to build DoT as mDK as ironic as it sounds.

Illuvatarr

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

RamiroCruzo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

*hands bottle of milk* Don't cry lil sorc suckling =^_^=

1. "burst for more damage than pretty much any class": What is mDKs burst? 14k (Yes, assuming a fully buffed Siroria mDK is hitting you) Power Lash? Stamblade will roll dodge, Magblade/Magsorc got shield, burst gone, which took a CC, then a Whip to proc. Then our beloved Dragon Dunk, with changes to evasion, it'll hit 25% less hard which barely used to ht anyone thanks to roll dodge or just shield and block.
2. "bsw and Valkyn skoria": Available to all classes.
3. "no talent class full of board whiners": Thanks Explains our current condition, either played by RPers or my fanatics who somehow manage to wreck people like you.

If you ever lose to any class 1v1 except a stamden or stamplar you are playing the class wrong. Plain and simple.

So you must be playing it wrong then also. A truly good Sorc would not lose to mDK and get salty and post his salt on forums.

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Give me a good reason to build around DoTs when mDK DoTs happen to be the most mitigated and laughable damage source. Putting 72 in Thau won't change much. If it was like a bleed, sure DK will be very OP. But it is not like bleed. Properly built dps builds only take what 700 at the most? Compare that to Masters DW bleed that goes above and beyond. No reason to build DoT as mDK as ironic as it sounds.

Not salty at all. The mag dk ability as the marketed tank class to do more ranged damage than sorcerers is remarkably dumb and imbalancing. Regardless of where you get that damage in skill lines. Your class does not pay a survivability cost for damage and never has. One of the silly parts of this game. It is also a major reason, through itemization and other factors, that every other character you see in pvp is a mag dk. It isnt because they like the look of the wings. Class spec is stupidly overpowered and when the requirement to even face one is to constantly be spamming shields just to deal with the dps zos lets them have (at range while they can reflect most ranged dps without a counter) is *** ***. You know it. Everyone knows it. You defend it because it helps you.

lucky_Sage

Illuvatarr wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

RamiroCruzo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Mag DK’s really have nothing to complain about. You should never lose to any class that relies on range (while your ranged dps is insane) and you can burst for more damage than pretty much any class in the game with bsw and Valkyn skoria. It’s really a no talent class full of board whiners.

*hands bottle of milk* Don't cry lil sorc suckling =^_^=

1. "burst for more damage than pretty much any class": What is mDKs burst? 14k (Yes, assuming a fully buffed Siroria mDK is hitting you) Power Lash? Stamblade will roll dodge, Magblade/Magsorc got shield, burst gone, which took a CC, then a Whip to proc. Then our beloved Dragon Dunk, with changes to evasion, it'll hit 25% less hard which barely used to ht anyone thanks to roll dodge or just shield and block.
2. "bsw and Valkyn skoria": Available to all classes.
3. "no talent class full of board whiners": Thanks Explains our current condition, either played by RPers or my fanatics who somehow manage to wreck people like you.

If you ever lose to any class 1v1 except a stamden or stamplar you are playing the class wrong. Plain and simple.

So you must be playing it wrong then also. A truly good Sorc would not lose to mDK and get salty and post his salt on forums.

BlackMadara wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Last I checked whip was more like 2-2.5k...

Even so I don't think Lich is the best choice. Magicka DKs don't have a lot of synergy with a regen build. You would be better off with other sets...

I haven't ran a DK in PvP for a while but when I did I actually ran Bloodspawn and Dragonguard for more Battle Roar. Pair that with Burning Spellweave and you should have plenty of resources given that you now also get Magic from burning procs. If you still need more then back bar a VMA Resto staff for healing and sustain.

On a side note, getting Embers at 7m is going to be a lot bigger buff than I think most people are acknowledging.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Magicka DK's need more magicka sustain, but this nerf is actually pretty small compared to the other things that made it into Nerfmire.

Burning proc is borderline useless. A class designed to recover resources on battle should have a way to recover the outside battle, otherwise it is easy to gank the DK after he fought for 5 minutes. Not to mention how NBs and some sorcs can just kite , getting themselves outside battle and coming back full resources while you still have half of them.


But it's balanced, you know...

Just want to chime in... burning proc is a lot of free damage. Basically a free random dot. Agree that DK sustain could use help, but their are ways around it atm. Build to the strengths of the class.

What strength? Damage? No because no sustain. Heal? No. Just no. Don't even try. Tank? Not in PvP and stam counter parts make better tank thanks to sets. And no. I would not consider something that ticks for 100~200s at best 'a lot of free damage'. If it ticked as hard as bleed, then that's 'a lot of free damage'. But it is not. It gets mitigated by CPs, armors and racial. DK probably has the highest trade off of damage/sustain. If you build for sustain, you lack damage which translates to more casting of abilities which then translates to bad sustain because you are expending resources continuously. Build for damage, you are going to run dry fast, making it difficult to sustain long fights. I can kill things fine with 2.5~3k SD on many other magicka classes. Not on DKs. Fighting competent players is like grueling grind that lasts a lot longer than fighting them with other classes. And in DK's case, it has more to do with the class than truly being equally matched regardless of stam or magicka. So, what is strength of DKs again in PvP? This sustain nerf will force DKs back to 2 sustain sets while others run like crazy with DPS.

All classes need to balance between damage, sustain, and defense. That could be building for all 3 for an open world/duel build or using teammates to compensate for areas you are lacking. Some classes have defenses that are easier to use in practice, but despite the bias a lot of people show here, different situations allow variance in effectiveness for all defenses.

On to DK strengths. Multiple dots, cc, offensive healing, decent stackable delayed burst combos, etc. You can combine several aspects in the DK kit for different playstyles that will allow for a viable pvp build. I know you will focus comparing DK dots to bleeds, and, only focusing on damage, bleed damage and resistance interaction is over performing and not hitting the goal of being a counter to only tanks. I still find DK dot pressure to be adequate when used correctly and taking advantage of the extra skill effects they offer.

I think of burning as damage boost for whatever ability applied it. It has about a 1000 damage per tick tooltip for my build. I think it's effective but to each their own.

As for sustain, the battle roar change is rough but utilizing a destro staff for minor magicka steal, LA, the burning regen passive, being less spammy, and mechanics regarding ult and other skill lines, I am able to sustain without a dedicated regen set or regen/ cost reduction glyphs. I ran a sustain set before with all damage glyphs and found I could drop the sustain set with change in playstyle. Find out what works for you.

Edit: forgot about burning damage increase passive. Burning has a tooltip of about 1500 per tick for me.

Give me a good reason to build around DoTs when mDK DoTs happen to be the most mitigated and laughable damage source. Putting 72 in Thau won't change much. If it was like a bleed, sure DK will be very OP. But it is not like bleed. Properly built dps builds only take what 700 at the most? Compare that to Masters DW bleed that goes above and beyond. No reason to build DoT as mDK as ironic as it sounds.

Not salty at all. The mag dk ability as the marketed tank class to do more ranged damage than sorcerers is remarkably dumb and imbalancing. Regardless of where you get that damage in skill lines. Your class does not pay a survivability cost for damage and never has. One of the silly parts of this game. It is also a major reason, through itemization and other factors, that every other character you see in pvp is a mag dk. It isnt because they like the look of the wings. Class spec is stupidly overpowered and when the requirement to even face one is to constantly be spamming shields just to deal with the dps zos lets them have (at range while they can reflect most ranged dps without a counter) is *** ***. You know it. Everyone knows it. You defend it because it helps you.

@illuvatarr
Lol i almost never see another Magdk. Really what does Magdk have in there tool kit that makes them super tanky with out having to sacrifice dmg.becuase my build has really high dmg that on the lvl of stamblades but 1 mess up and I'm died I'm dumb squishy. Pre murk Sorcs are way tankier than Magdk and don't lose anything next up date they will hurt and I think shield nerf was way to much but I bet the top PvP Sorcs will find a way just like Magdks did when they where nerfed to the ground. Wings are the most op things that bowtards and magsorcs and magblades think wings bugs alot doesn't reflect status effects and everyclass has some counter dmg to wings Sorcs curse and mages furry.magblades have lotus fan and concealed weapon and all ults. Honestly Magdks dmg is in a good spot but in the wrong way our DoTs are very weak for a DoT class. Then magdk is suppose to be sustain and stand ground class which sustain is subpar compared to all other classes in game then stand your ground doesn't exist anymore

MashmalloMan

Don't really have a strong footing in this conversation because I don't play the class too much, but can we not forget that almost every DK skill is fire damage which affects vampires with +20% damage.

I know it's stupid and I'm working on changing this, but I enjoy using one character for pve, pvp, etc. It's my crafter, my end game trial character and BG character, don't really bother with cyrodiil due to not wanting to change my cp and generally don't find it that entertaining.

What I'm getting at is, I like many others probably use 1 character for multiple tasks in game, I just enjoy that aspect and I currently use vampire because I require the +10% stam regen. That means any time a DK catches me I'm pretty much toast. The fact that your class kit has +20% damage to large chunk of the game's player base is a pretty strong benefit.

Like I said, I'm working on making an alt strictly for PvP, just to give me that added edge.

That being said, it would be nice if DK's had a better sustain tool then just ult dump or fire status procs. I have a mDK too, but I don't play it that often. Are mDK's using Deep Thoughts?

Edit: Is it 25%? Can't find it online.

Camb0Sl1ce

@marshall1289 I believe its 25% at stage 4, pve dds shouldnt drop below stage 2 which is 15% I think could be wrong im at work so really cant look.

MashmalloMan

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

@marshall1289 I believe its 25% at stage 4, pve dds shouldnt drop below stage 2 which is 15% I think could be wrong im at work so really cant look.

Yeah I think your right.

Well people who want the stage 4 for the sneak walking speed get hit by +25% fire dmg, that's pretty strong and most people will be stage 2-4 so 15-25% if it's a vampire.

Kadoin

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Don't really have a strong footing in this conversation because I don't play the class too much, but can we not forget that almost every DK skill is fire damage which affects vampires with +20% damage.

I know it's stupid and I'm working on changing this, but I enjoy using one character for pve, pvp, etc. It's my crafter, my end game trial character and BG character, don't really bother with cyrodiil due to not wanting to change my cp and generally don't find it that entertaining.

What I'm getting at is, I like many others probably use 1 character for multiple tasks in game, I just enjoy that aspect and I currently use vampire because I require the +10% stam regen. That means any time a DK catches me I'm pretty much toast. The fact that your class kit has +20% damage to large chunk of the game's player base is a pretty strong benefit.

Like I said, I'm working on making an alt strictly for PvP, just to give me that added edge.

That being said, it would be nice if DK's had a better sustain tool then just ult dump or fire status procs. I have a mDK too, but I don't play it that often. Are mDK's using Deep Thoughts?

Edit: Is it 25%? Can't find it online.

Yet even with that disadvantage, you still keep vampire. What do you think that really says?