When will PvE and PvP be separated?

TheGreatBlackBear

It's getting out of hand now. What happens in Cyro should stay in Cyro. The PVP community has unique needs and concerns as does the PVE community. So why are we still seeing nerfs or fixes that affect both regions for problems that affect only one? A prime example is the unreasonable (from a PvE perspective) call to nerf or fix Earthgore because some people find it hard to get kills. I sympathise with you all, but I don't want to be made to drink medicine for your cold. Think about GTA V. You don't see Rockstar changing the rules of the base PvE game when they do updates for the PVP multiplayer part of the game. I know GTA isn't the best example to use as they are different genres of games being compared. I'm just saying that the separation aspects of the rules is something ESO could benefit from.

ItsMeToo

Here we go again. Run Horse Run.

Royaji

ItsMeToo wrote: »

Here we go again. Run Horse Run.

This horse is long dead. It is unable to perform the slightest movement not even talking about running.

TheGreatBlackBear

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Some people don’t want them to separate and just want to watch the world burn.

But seriously, they do need to be separated soon.

Royaji

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It is an intentional design decision. Not an oversight. Not a problem. An intentional desing decision. ZOS wants to have a seamless PvE to PvP transition. If you do not like it you will probably be better off in another game rather than waiting for ZOS to do a complete 180 here.

TheGreatBlackBear

Royaji wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It is an intentional design decision. Not an oversight. Not a problem. An intentional desing decision. ZOS wants to have a seamless PvE to PvP transition. If you do not like it you will probably be better off in another game rather than waiting for ZOS to do a complete 180 here.

It's just weird you know. Imagine waking up one to find out that the car you saved for years was taken or stripped bare and made practically non functional, because somewhere, in the other side of the country, someone was "abusing" his car by offering a private taxi service. You'd quite rightly wonder wtf does that have to with you. And just because it's a design doesn't make it a a non-problem. It's a bad design according to many players of either persuasion. And seamless? PvP literally is conducted in a zone by itself that you have to access through another menu. It's not like ESO is this big grey area where anything goes any we can engage in PVP everywhere. It's a half assed job in implementation.

randomkeyhits

Royaji wrote: »

ZOS wants to have a seamless PvE to PvP transition.

ermm if they really want this then they need to change certain precepts about how the game plays.

For example for it to be seamless you cannot have PvP or PVE only enchantments such that moving from one to the other requires switching out gear irrespective of the sets used.

In my experience every time a MMO started with one setup for both then bit the bullet and separated them, things got better, for both Pve and PvP. Some game teams just sucked at balance anyway but the decent ones ended up with a much stronger, focused product

SHADOW2KK

The horse cannot even be bothered to open their eyes slightly

kylewwefan

It doesn’t stop with the Impen gear?

Don’t ya hate when you see someone rocking S/B 2H in your random vet dungeon. Or even a 2H Resto build. Stuff that works in PvP, Battleground and duels are terrible in PvE dungeons.

They don’t complain about me when I go into battlegrounds in full PvE gear and rip me to shreds in seconds though....

I don’t know anything about balance though. Play how you want. These guys take the weakest class there is and nerf it harder because reasons no one knows. Nerf the daylights out of the best PvE Set because it could be too strong in PvP or they want to standardize Set bonuses to be named buffs rather than individual set bonus.

We get it. Sounds good on paper. But they just completely ruined a bunch of sets no one was complaining about for reasons.

boombazookajd

Never.

Just get over it at this point.

ATomiX96

it wont be seperated anytime near otherwise they would have mentioned it at least.

TheGreatBlackBear

In a vacuum I don't care about PvP. I'm content to leave that side of the game alone. I care when it interfere with my PVE which seems like always these days. It's silly to think that the gear and skills we use to take down bosses with tens of millions of health can and should be used in the same manner against players who don't even have 100k health. It's time for some separation.

Royaji

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It is an intentional design decision. Not an oversight. Not a problem. An intentional desing decision. ZOS wants to have a seamless PvE to PvP transition. If you do not like it you will probably be better off in another game rather than waiting for ZOS to do a complete 180 here.

It's just weird you know. Imagine waking up one to find out that the car you saved for years was taken or stripped bare and made practically non functional, because somewhere, in the other side of the country, someone was "abusing" his car by offering a private taxi service. You'd quite rightly wonder wtf does that have to with you. And just because it's a design doesn't make it a a non-problem. It's a bad design according to many players of either persuasion. And seamless? PvP literally is conducted in a zone by itself that you have to access through another menu. It's not like ESO is this big grey area where anything goes any we can engage in PVP everywhere. It's a half assed job in implementation.

Your example has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP. Some of the most major nerfs in the game - Morrowind sustain changes and shield nerfs - were entirely PvE driven. Most nerfs happen due to power creep not balance.

I have an example of my own for you though. Imagine driving a car through a city. Once you enter the downtown all of your controls suddenly change. Turning right makes your car rapidly accelerate forward, breaking turns on headlights and so on. And once you have passed the downtown area everything is back to normal again.

This is the issue ZOS wants to avoid. Maybe I should clarify by saying ZOS wants skill function the same way in PvE And PvP. It doesn't mean that bringing your Mini Cooper to a race track will allow you to outperform an F1 car, but the way you actually handle the car stays seamless.

Royaji

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

In a vacuum I don't care about PvP. I'm content to leave that side of the game alone. I care when it interfere with my PVE which seems like always these days. It's silly to think that the gear and skills we use to take down bosses with tens of millions of health can and should be used in the same manner against players who don't even have 100k health. It's time for some separation.

This is your main problem. ZOS does not want you to leave any side of the game alone. They are not able to create content faster than you consume it. So they want you to try as much of already available content as you can.

VaranisArano

Its only going to happen if the Devs decide to walk back years of intentionally
balancing PVE and PVP together. And, no, it doesnt matter how many issues you see with their implementation of that up til now - its imperfect like so many things in this game. But it comes down to the Devs and their vision. It entirely possible to transition from PVE to PVP and back, though you need different builds to be optimized, just like you would for transitioning to different levels of PVE content or PVE roles.

From the viewpoint of a once PVE-only player, separation from a PVE perspective is essentially "I want this game to be able to be played as a single-player TES game, with the option to do group content with my friends."

From a PVP perspective, seperation is essentially "I want this PVP game to play like other (better) PVP games on the market.)


Now, I cant speak for the Devs, but...

For one, I don't think the Devs are interested in competing with other PVP games in their own field. Or even interested in competing with the single player TES games in their own field. Nobody ever nerfed me in Skyrim.

Two, separation means giving up a chunk of PVP players playing PVE, and vice versa. PVP players no longer have to grind Undaunted and gear from dungeons/trials? Woot! Oh, and PVE players no longer have to grind AP for caltrops, warhorn, and Vigor - and PVE players better hope ZOS still lets you use Alliance War skills in non PVP areas. Why would ZOS want to give up players playing parts of their game, even if the players dont enjoy it? Ever since One Tamriel really, ZOS has intentionally designed things to forced players to play ALL of the game if they want ALL of the stuff. Feature, not a bug.

Three, ESO is an MMORPG. Its designed like an MMORPG. Its designed for group content, both in PVE and PVP. Its not designed to be a single player TES game with optional grouping. That its become that in PVE is a pretty alarming problem. For one, it means that some PVE players think they get to do everything in the game without having to adapt their builds to the situation. We see this when those players enter dungeons and PVP. Second, it means that a lot of the MMO-type game development seems at odds with the RPG-side development, which results in frustration for players who have much more experience with one or the other. Third, most players, if not pushed, are happy to stay in the niche of content they know they like. ZOS is really good at pushing players out of their comfort zone and getting them to at least try content. Look at the line up of Festivals - Witches Festival is every type of boss this year for the dremora motif, Midyear Mayhem is all forms of PVP, Undaunted Festival is all group dungeons, and the Anniversary festival is all types of dailies. Festivals are just one example of ZOS, deliberately, trying to get players to try out all forms of content if they want ALL the rewards.


Finally, ESO' vision for PVE and PVP has changed in the past, so its not like it can't happen.
First, PVP was the end game. The only endgame. You did your faction questline, you went to Cyrodiil, and you fought,
Then, ZOS introduced Cadwell's Silver and Gold as the end game, because shockingly enough TES fans want to quest, not just fight.
With One Tamriel, ZOS opened up the world. Now, overland quests are basic content. PVE has end game dungeons and trials - which contains gear and skills needed for PVP - which contains AP needed for skills for PVE. PVE and PVP are in seperate zones (though Cyrodiil and Imperial City retain traces of when ZOS thought everyone liked mixed PVP/PVE zones), but the gear, skills, passives, and experience you need to do well in both are acquires in both PVE and PVP. Its designed to keep players playing both sides of the game and all content within the game. If you want to get all the things in ESO, you have to do: public dungeons, group dungeons, quests, Cyrodiil, trials, arenas, battlegrounds, and dailies. Thats by design - a giant rat race to keep us busy playing the game and the money flowing in.



Separation, for good or ill, would result in big changes that the Devs would have to okay.

For PVP: They'd have to fix the lag and performance issues. Without that, PVP is dead.
Beyond that, everything that is obtained from PVE has to go. No more leveling to 10 before PVE. No more mount training, no more gear gathering from dungeons, no more Undaunted grind. Everything for PVP is obtained through PVP activities - maybe ZOS gives a PVP version of those things, maybe they don't.
The devs begin developing a PVP only team which is separate from the PVE side of things. PVP now needs its own new content, since its players may or may not still bother with dungeon packs, etc.
Also, this moves ESO directly into competition with other PVP games on the market, and well, good luck with that.

For PVE: obviously, PVE loses the Alliance War skills. Maybe the devs gives a PVE version of those, maybe they don't.
The Devs start balancing PVE against itself, and since the Devs are in an MMO and still need to keep players chasing the carrot of the meta, the nerfs continue. Or the devs stop nerfing, power creep ensues, players get bored, and leave, because once youve finished all the content in a single player game its got limited replayability. PVE becomes more like a single player TES game with optional grouping for end game content. Basically, ZOS continues developing PVE exactly as they do now - nice new zones with lots of grindy dailies, dungeon packs, and mini-trials.



TLDR: A separate PVE is a single player TES gsme with less mods and optional grouping. A separate PVP has to,compete with other PVP games. Why would the Devs want to do something that encourages players to play less of their entire game?

Feanor

My bet is on „never“. ZOS is adamant about that.

DMuehlhausen

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It's not acceptance. It's knowing they never will do it. If they make ESO 2 maybe then they can. The systems now are to intertwined. Separating them would require a complete rebuild of the game engine essentially. It's never going to happen.

The sad part is it is the only thing that can fix the issues. You can't balance skills designed around killing mobs in groups with millions of HP to be level playing field against thinking players with 10s of thousands of HP it's just not mathematically possible.

VaranisArano

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It's not acceptance. It's knowing they never will do it. If they make ESO 2 maybe then they can. The systems now are to intertwined. Separating them would require a complete rebuild of the game engine essentially. It's never going to happen.

The sad part is it is the only thing that can fix the issues. You can't balance skills designed around killing mobs in groups with millions of HP to be level playing field against thinking players with 10s of thousands of HP it's just not mathematically possible.

Battle Spirit.

Which, actually, the current Battle Spirit is pretty good. Assuming that some PVPers would L2Play, and some PVEers would accept that power creep is a thing, we'd actually be doing okay.

Now, the real problem with sets is that ZOS keeps designing overpowered sets like the original Earthgore or Sloads without paying attention to PTS feedback telling them the issues with it. ZOS would rather release an OP set and then nerf it rather than fix it before release, which is a problem. But its all part of getting people to grind for the carrot of the meta, so I can't say I'm surprised just disappointed.

FearlessOne_2014

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It's not acceptance. It's knowing they never will do it. If they make ESO 2 maybe then they can. The systems now are to intertwined. Separating them would require a complete rebuild of the game engine essentially. It's never going to happen.

The sad part is it is the only thing that can fix the issues. You can't balance skills designed around killing mobs in groups with millions of HP to be level playing field against thinking players with 10s of thousands of HP it's just not mathematically possible.

The same thing was said about GW2. Now in GW2 PvP and PvE have different balances. If it can happen in GW2 with their closet room crew. It can happen here in ESO.

Zavijah

Agreed, but they won’t change it.

And I really dgaf about pvpers or their stupid map.

ruengdet2515

Buy new pc-server and give it to ZOS.

EliteWarrior

Rockstar ruined GTA Online with stupid PvP items, I quit after 1000 hours and a tonne of great friends in the community.
My favourite weapon was sniper, sniping was great fun, involved lots of skill in aiming, then Rockstar brought out Explosive Ammo for the sniper with a DLC. Yep, Explosive. Ammo.
Why aim for your enemy when you can just shoot the floor near him????
ESO and GTA are very different games though, but I hope ESO doesn't kill the entire PvE/PvP game in one sweep like Rockstar did a while back.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

It is never going to happen. Expect nerfs caused by PVP to PVE and Vice Versa. I think many games have gone this route and most are now dead because they would not or could not separate PVP from PVE.

bearbelly

Royaji wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

Here we go again. Run Horse Run.

This horse is long dead. It is unable to perform the slightest movement not even talking about running.

Looks like it's moving relatively well.
And it gets the same speed buff when running as the other mounts.
Although, I'll grant you, it stumbles a bit after jumping.



Just sayin'.

zaria

Royaji wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It may be a dead horse but the problem is alive, well, breeding and multiplying. So why should the discussions end? Silence is taken as acceptance.

It is an intentional design decision. Not an oversight. Not a problem. An intentional desing decision. ZOS wants to have a seamless PvE to PvP transition. If you do not like it you will probably be better off in another game rather than waiting for ZOS to do a complete 180 here.

Builds and sets will be different in any cases.
PvP is about burst, PvE about DoT.

WoW has / had separate PvP gear. ESO has battle spirit and some set specifications like minor slayer or the Knight Slayer set,
(Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks against Players deal and additional 10% of their Max Health as Oblivion Damage.)
Had been pretty insane if against Players restriction was removed because some bug.
vAS+2 would suddenly be very trivial.

Expand on battle spirit as needed.

TheGreatBlackBear

This myth that PVEers shun group or are not in the spirit of MMOs play needs to die. I do group content. Every. Single. Day. Unless endgame raiding has become solo play by PVPers definition. I love playing with players. Just not against them. When I say separation I don't mean have two different games. I mean have separating the behaviour of sets and skills so they operate differently against NPCs and players. We already have something like that with healing in Cyro right?

Cryptical

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Some people don’t want them to separate and just want to watch the world burn.

But seriously, they do need to be separated soon.

They should not be separated, because abilities and skills should not function differently based on where you are on the map.

What we have now is a situation where, with all other variables kept the same, a player facing one person is the same difficulty as a player facing a large horde of mobs. It’s a sort of ‘exchange rate’ that has gotten too lopsided, too many mobs to make up one person.

The pve to pvp learning curve is so steep because of that. A pve player can ease off of the difficulty by taking mobs in smaller numbers than Large Horde, but cannot take on a fraction of a person.

But pvp players shouldn’t get puffed up by that. There are mechanical differences that muddy that transition exchange rate. Mobs don’t crit, making impen useless in pve. Shields can’t be critted, making them more powerful in PvP because that artificially manipulates the attacker’s ability to deal damage, just as top-of-my-head examples.

Even facing certain skills must be treated differently depending on if the wielder is mob or person. If you are at the edge of an aoe and the opponent is winding up for a wrecking blow, your correct reaction is different for mob or person. If it’s a person, it’s fine to block. But if that’s a mob, they are hitting you with the legacy wrecking blow that includes a knock back that will put you in the aoe.

Gear function differences, combat math differences, ability function differences. Each should be carefully reversed so that the rift between pve and pvp can be closed. But I don’t expect that to happen. I expect the two modes of play to continue to drift apart until pvp dies enough to be ripe for a complete restart with fewer of these fundamental differences active.

Because zeni does not appear to revisit content. Almost at all.

No revisit of old dungeons to implement basic fixes put in later dungeons. No shifting of older dungeons to the ‘complete dungeon’ goal like in the newest. The one that is the brightest signal that zeni never truly looks back is that to this day there STILL isn’t a way to walk out of completed bloodroot forge. They put a portal at the end of fang lair, so you aren’t trapped, but the simplest of revisions to bloodroot just hasn’t been done.

So my opinion is this: pvp will continue to get bandaid treatment, moving it further and further from functioning the same way as pve functions. And that diverging function is going to make it less and less accessible to new players because pve is where the main game is located. And pvp will lose more players.

Once, it supported about 8ish campaigns. Now there’s 4, and people post about empty areas.

People purchased Elder Scrolls pve, not Alliance War pvp. PvP players should not want separation, that separates them from new people.

I think that if the pvp players want a revival, they should push for anything they can think of that will make pve and pvp as seamlessly compatible as possible, so that the gameplay barrier between the two modes is as small as possible.

PvP wants people to come to cyrodiil and the sewers. So make it as easy as possible for people to say ‘Yes’. Push to remove the gear requirement differences, because farming all new gear just to get to the starting line is a barrier. Push to remove the combat function differences, because learning a whole new combat method just to get to the starting line is a barrier. Quit pushing people away by asking for separate treatment, it’s self-defeating in the long term.

Fleshreaper

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's getting out of hand now. What happens in Cyro should stay in Cyro. The PVP community has unique needs and concerns as does the PVE community. So why are we still seeing nerfs or fixes that affect both regions for problems that affect only one? A prime example is the unreasonable (from a PvE perspective) call to nerf or fix Earthgore because some people find it hard to get kills. I sympathise with you all, but I don't want to be made to drink medicine for your cold. Think about GTA V. You don't see Rockstar changing the rules of the base PvE game when they do updates for the PVP multiplayer part of the game. I know GTA isn't the best example to use as they are different genres of games being compared. I'm just saying that the separation aspects of the rules is something ESO could benefit from.

No, it shouldn't be. If ZoS sets the two apart, which they kind of already did, with Inpen gear. You will have even few players running PvP. Then you will be back on here complaining about how there are not enough people in PvP. Always hear a lot of hard core PvPers say, PvP should be about skill and then say they should have special PvP gear. If PvP is all skill why would you need PvP gear, unless you want PvP to be gear based and you just want to out gear everyone, instead of being skilled.

Rain_Greyraven

Honestly .....they should just kill the whole mass battle PVP system, I mean Camelot Unchained is going to take that demographic, it just is. Go back to the old TES arena philosophy.......wandering Gladiators going from arena to arena participating in 2v2 and 4v4 battles. They could use the GW2 system of separate builds, hell they could even attach a quest system to it, to add a bit of story for impetus.

Folks nowadays would rather be the Character in the Movie Gladiator, than the dudes fighting in the lotr battle scene of Pelennor Fields.

Are you not amused?!!!

TheGreatBlackBear

Lol impen gear. Impen gear is not being complained about (as far as I know) nor is it relevant to my or anyone else's experience in PVE. The problems come in when you hear things like "nerf vigor" or "nerf rally" or "springs shouldn't stack" and the devs decide to do so. Speed sets (hard earned from PVE activities trials and dungeons) are being nerfed because of how speed was affecting gameplay in PVP. I know you mean well, @FleshCult but PVP "balancing" (or a poor attempt to do so) is causing PVE players grief while providing little to no benefits in return. And I'm sure a PVP player can point to cases to where PVE has done so to them.