Why does my sub have taxes this month?

Doctor_Demento

I've been here since beta. Played online gaming since 1994. As a matter of fact I've done 58 game betas now. I've been subbed and pay $14.99 a month. Last month was $14.99. This month it is $16.04. Why? I live in Indiana in the USA. We don't have taxes for digital services such as gaming. I watch 5 hours of more of news a day. I have 3 news sites as my home pages. If anything had changed it not only would be on the news. It would have been big news since 10's of millions of people here have online subscriptions to games. Yes they just not long ago added taxes for online PRODUCTS, ie: tv's, clothes, cars, etc. It did NOT include taxes for game subscriptions. So why did you charge me $16.04 for my sub this month? Thanks.

SirAndy

Weird, my last payment was October 5th and it was for the usual $14.99 ...

Parrot1986

There’s not been any introduction of taxes to the sub costs so you’ve not missed that. The subs cost is still 14.99 on the site as well.

Could it be the date you paid has changed and it’s charged for a longer pro-rata period this month? Or another charge type for crowns for eg?

Doctor_Demento

I agree with both you. Mine was 14.99 and yep, there has been no tax added for game subs. It is s digital product and is even blocked from being taxed by many states.

Doctor_Demento

Sorry missed the last part. Nope date is 30 days later than last sub. No pro-rate. And no crown charge. But I mention taxes because 14.99 + Indiana tax for physical items you buy in stores is 7%. That would come to 16.04. Which is what they charged my bank. IF they are collectiing a non-existent tax for Indiana, then one of two things. They are not giving the money to Indiana because there is no sales tax on game subs. Or they are giving the money to Indiana as in a free donation which Indiana will legally accept because there is no sales tax for games subs in Indiana. Either one is nuts.

Doctor_Demento

Just wanted to post a update here. Since the devs have ignored this question here, I have opened a ticket. In March of this year Governor Holcomb of the state of Indiana in the USA passed Senate Bill 257. It states there is NO sales tax for game subscriptions and for software sales in state of Indiana. (digital services) So still waiting for a reply from ESO.

Doctor_Demento

Update from dev. Got a response to my ticket. They are saying a new tax went into effect Octobler 1st. BUT they are wrong. The tax was for PHYSICAL items bought from the net, such as clothing or tv's, etc. There are 4 states now that have implemented laws exempting them from sales tax on software purchases or digital services from software such as game scriptions, antivirus, etc. I informed them that as of March of Indiana Senate bill 257 was signed by Governor Holcomb exempting games subs from sales tax. And copied and pasted it for them to read. I am now waiting for their reply. I hope they are able to understand this time. I have asked several people in game who said they are not paying sales tax on their game now. And I am not paying sales taxes on other games I play online as well. Well now we'll just have to wait to see how they see it. I think it's pretty clear myself. Keep your fingers crossed.

Taleof2Cities

Good catch, @worldpeaceoutb14_ESO, I hope it turns out in your favor.

Ever thought about going into your own tax consulting entrepreneurship ...?

Gilvoth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hVl1Q4FqVI

Sevn

Noticed this as well. I'm seeing a tax for both my eso membership and my ps plus membership that wasn't there before.

Doctor_Demento

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hVl1Q4FqVI

Yeah I've seen that. In fact from many sources. But as they state, it is up to each state as to what they do. Indiana is now the 4th state to pass law that we do NOT have to pay taxes on software and on software services. It was as I stated Indiana Senate Bill 257 signed this March and went into effect June 1st 2018. It clearly states no taxes on this, as in game subs too. So I hope that ESO decides not to fight Indiana Law. That would look bad for them. I don't think they will. I think after the legal team looks at the law (and yes I read the entire thing) they will agree, that in 4 states now including Indiana we don't pay taxes on game subscriptions. Thanks for posting anyhow. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed. Take care!

Gilvoth

i can only guess they are doing what they are told to do.
if they receive orders to take the money, might not be able to bypass it.

idk

worldpeaceoutb14_ESO wrote: »

Update from dev. Got a response to my ticket. They are saying a new tax went into effect Octobler 1st. BUT they are wrong. The tax was for PHYSICAL items bought from the net, such as clothing or tv's, etc.

I am not certain this is correct. I believe it has more to do with how each state writes their law.

Some laws have required a physical presence. However, many laws are now saying connections to the state, which can be based on how the company solicits business in that state. This can probably have to do with having agreements with retailers in a given state. Seems Zos may have agreements with multiple retailers operating in many states through out the USA. Think Game Stop, Walmart and Target.

I am not an attorney.

Defilted

Mine has been 16.08 since June 9th 2015.

Doctor_Demento

idk wrote: »

worldpeaceoutb14_ESO wrote: »

Update from dev. Got a response to my ticket. They are saying a new tax went into effect Octobler 1st. BUT they are wrong. The tax was for PHYSICAL items bought from the net, such as clothing or tv's, etc.

I am not certain this is correct. I believe it has more to do with how each state writes their law.

Some laws have required a physical presence. However, many laws are now saying connections to the state, which can be based on how the company solicits business in that state. This can probably have to do with having agreements with retailers in a given state. Seems Zos may have agreements with multiple retailers operating in many states through out the USA. Think Game Stop, Walmart and Target.

I am not an attorney.

Yes I clearly stated that each state sets their own laws. FOUR states have passed laws AGAINST game subs tax and software tax and charges for software uses, such as monthly fees for antivirus. The rest have no laws and some have no sales tax of any kind.

Doctor_Demento

Defilted wrote: »

Mine has been 16.08 since June 9th 2015.

Where in the world do you live? The highest sales tax in the USA is Louisiana at 10.02 cents sales tax. EU has had taxes for a long time on games. Just curious.

idk

worldpeaceoutb14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worldpeaceoutb14_ESO wrote: »

Update from dev. Got a response to my ticket. They are saying a new tax went into effect Octobler 1st. BUT they are wrong. The tax was for PHYSICAL items bought from the net, such as clothing or tv's, etc.

I am not certain this is correct. I believe it has more to do with how each state writes their law.

Some laws have required a physical presence. However, many laws are now saying connections to the state, which can be based on how the company solicits business in that state. This can probably have to do with having agreements with retailers in a given state. Seems Zos may have agreements with multiple retailers operating in many states through out the USA. Think Game Stop, Walmart and Target.

I am not an attorney.

Yes I clearly stated that each state sets their own laws. FOUR states have passed laws AGAINST game subs tax and software tax and charges for software uses, such as monthly fees for antivirus. The rest have no laws and some have no sales tax of any kind.

I may be misunderstanding here. I expect I am.

It seems this statement quoted above is saying that four states has forbit sales tax for game subscriptions and the remaining states have either no sales tax or have passed no laws concerning collection of sales tax on internet sales.

I expect this incorrect. There are a number of states that have laws concerning collection of sales taxes on internet sales and a subscription for this game would be an internet sale.

Again, I am not an attorney, but maybe you can enlighten us with the actual detail. Maybe provide us a link to the information you are looking at. Clearly you have looked into this.

Doctor_Demento

OK lets try again, most states have sales tax of course. Everyone in the US knows that. There are 5 states who do not have sales tax of any kind. NONE. Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon. There are 4 states who have passed laws that exempt software and software services such as antivirus, game subs, business programs such as Office, etc from sales taxes on those digital services. Some states have taxes for digital services such as game subs and some who don't. The majority of states, I do not have a complete list. I didn't care in particular which did or didn't. My concern was with INDIANA where I live. We do not have tax laws to pay taxes for game subs. If you need to know if your state does, then I would suggest you go look it up like I did. It would be nice if ESO had a list of them perhaps for everyones sake. I am not a attorney, Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which ones do or don't. I am 65 and severely disabled. Maybe it would be nice if you did it for us all. Thanks!

idk either

Doctor_Demento

Latest update. I have now been thru 6 supposed "agents" handling my problem. It has been "escalated" 3 times now. And now a 4th time. They suggested I change my payment method so that "MAYBE" it will stop the tax charges. Uh wut? YOUR company is charging the sales tax, not my bank. How is changing my payment method to PayPal going to stop YOU from charging me sales tax on my game subscription in a state that does not have sales tax on game subscriptions? That has to be one of the most ludicrous suggestions I've heard in some time. The bank only pays what YOUR company is CHARGING me. The bank does not levy taxes. Period. Now I am waiting on another department (supposedly) to stop charging me sales tax.

idk

1. I doubt the service Zos contracts for CS has sales tax experts. Zos itself would not have tax experts as they would hire tax/attorney type people to weed through those laws. There are likely consulting services to help in these matters.
2. After quick glance at Indian Code 6-2.5-5 I could not find any listing that appeared it would include an exemption for software or subscriptions.

You say Indiana does not levy tax on game subscriptions. Maybe cite the statute.

smacx250

Indiana Senate Bill 257 doesn't go into effect until 7/1/2019?

http://iga.in.gov/static-documents/9/4/b/7/94b77f93/SB0257.01.INTR.pdf

idk

smacx250 wrote: »

Indiana Senate Bill 257 doesn't go into effect until 7/1/2019?

http://iga.in.gov/static-documents/9/4/b/7/94b77f93/SB0257.01.INTR.pdf

Good find. However, there are a couple aspects of that which may not make the ESO subscription sales tax exempt in Indiana.

keevil111

You on ps4? If so, it's a Sony thing. All purchases through the PS store are taxed.

qbit

Depends on your local and state laws. Some states for many years have required internet purchase out of state be taxed. But it was unenforceable so few charged sales tax for their (I think michigan for example) customers. It’s harder to fly under the radar now with laws changing and culture changing. When amazon starts paying the state and local sales taxes then other companies will follow suit

qbit

Doctor_Demento wrote: »

Latest update. I have now been thru 6 supposed "agents" handling my problem. It has been "escalated" 3 times now. And now a 4th time. They suggested I change my payment method so that "MAYBE" it will stop the tax charges. Uh wut? YOUR company is charging the sales tax, not my bank. How is changing my payment method to PayPal going to stop YOU from charging me sales tax on my game subscription in a state that does not have sales tax on game subscriptions? That has to be one of the most ludicrous suggestions I've heard in some time. The bank only pays what YOUR company is CHARGING me. The bank does not levy taxes. Period. Now I am waiting on another department (supposedly) to stop charging me sales tax.

Oh Lordy. I quickly scrolled past your image and had to do a double take. Looked like a human centipede thing at first. You don’t want to google that.

Edit: also I don’t know if you’ve noticed it yet, but critical thinking is no longer something that exists at companies that employee young adults. They never learned it. And that’s who you’re now dealing with on all lower tier support. And that’s going to get worse as the adults retire over the coming years.

Nestor

You need to take this up with your state revenue bureau. What I have seens says everything you buy online in Indiana is taxed. A sub is something you buy, it does not need to be a physical product. I dont think ZOS can do anything about this if they are complelled by law to collect the tax for Indiana.

If you want subs and other digital services to be exempt in Indiana, you may need to champion for a law change.

idk

Nestor wrote: »

You need to take this up with your state revenue bureau. What I have seens says everything you buy online in Indiana is taxed. A sub is something you buy, it does not need to be a physical product. I dont think ZOS can do anything about this if they are complelled by law to collect the tax for Indiana.

If you want subs and other digital services to be exempt in Indiana, you may need to champion for a law change.

Pretty much this. It appears 3 of us have looked and none of us have found an exemption for game subs.

Veinblood1965

I heard that for those that are charged taxes ZOS is providing a free Hollowjack Motif each month which is a coveted item and very hard to come by.

Mudcrabber

There was a 5-4 Supreme Court decision in June that made it easier for states to demand sales tax from out-of-state businesses who sell to their residents, broadening how a sales tax "nexus" may be defined.

States who's loose nexus definitions were found illegal in 1992 now find them legal again, so they're scrambling to see who they can tax.

Snipress

I paid taxes for my subscription last month too.

Doctor_Demento

smacx250 wrote: »

Indiana Senate Bill 257 doesn't go into effect until 7/1/2019?

http://iga.in.gov/static-documents/9/4/b/7/94b77f93/SB0257.01.INTR.pdf

Wrong, it went into effect June 1, 2018. It was signed March of 2018. Did you read where I already posted all this info in detail.