DPS checks in Dungeons

Saphayla

Hey, I just wanted to ask - what DPS checks are present in Dungeons? If I have, for example, 20k DPS, what content would I have a really hard time doing?

Saphayla

(Also assuming the second DD does similar damage and doesn't carry me with his/her 50k+ damage per second)

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Just check Combat Metrics after the first boss fight. You will see the group damage and you will have a rough idea on what is the total DPS your teammates were doing. Then you can decide if you want to stay and carry them or just leave the group.

Saphayla

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Just check Combat Metrics after the first boss fight. You will see the group damage and you will have a rough idea on what is the total DPS your teammates were doing. Then you can decide if you want to stay and carry them or just leave the group.

That... is completely not what I was asking about. If anything, my question was "If I am doing 20k DPS, in what Dungeons will the other DD have to work overtime so that we kill the boss in time?"

Sparr0w

Don't think any have a dps check in the sense that you can complete all with around 20-25k dps. Some obviously will be a hell of a lot easier with higher dps as you can reduce or skip mechanics.

MJallday

Saphayla wrote: »

Hey, I just wanted to ask - what DPS checks are present in Dungeons? If I have, for example, 20k DPS, what content would I have a really hard time doing?

i would suggest 20k dps is certainly enough to clear all the dungeons on normal

youll be able to do most if not all vet ones , and indeed probably clear them if the other dps works a bit harder. but as with everything, more is better.

the ones youll find tough on vet at 20k are probably MHK and Fang Lair - but this is purely subjective. the DPS isnt just about you. its about what the others are doing too. its a team effort.

at 20k id probably be looking to venture into trials, but maybe stay out of the vet ones until you can learn them on normal.

Saphayla

The biggest DPS check I was thinking of were the gigantic Werewolves in Veteran Moon Hunter Keep. Most of the times I tried this dungeon, if the Werewolf started screaming at the tank I had to spam every healing spell in my arsenal to prevent him from dying. As such, I'm not sure if there are just some mechanics I'm not aware of, or if, during the fight with Archivist Emarde, they should be considered as a DPS check, or a way to punish the group for not having high enough DPS (I heard people say that 40k+ is recommended for that part)

Silver_Strider

20k DPS is pretty solid for pretty much any vet dungeon, DLC or otherwise, just the hard mode of some of the DLC dungeons would be outside your range.

I can think of only 3 dungeons that 20k DPS might not be high enough.
in FRH, the Atros might become a problem if both DPS only have 20k during the last boss.
Pretty much every boss in BRF, except maybe the first 2, would be absolute nightmares because of the adds alone, to say nothing of Earthgore themselves.
The Animal Farm in FL. Just **** that fight. I'd want 35K minimal DPS just to get that fight over with as quickly as possible because of how ridiculously painful it is with subpar DPS.

Saphayla

The Animal Farm being the four skeletal beasts? I've done vFL several times and I never had a problem with that fight, don't think anyone ever died there.

John_Falstaff

I don't think it was mentioned before, so to throw it into the pile - I believe that Domihaus in vFH puts the group on a timer with spawning adds.

Sparr0w

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I don't think it was mentioned before, so to throw it into the pile - I believe that Domihaus in vFH puts the group on a timer with spawning adds.

Nah I've tanked vFH HM with an average dps of about 15-20k

GreasyDave

I think you might find direfrost hm too difficult. Though it depends on group dps and set up. But that one is a pure dps race and you are either doing more dps than she is healing or you are not.

Royaji

I would say that in theory 20-25k DPS is enough to clear every piece of content ever released but...

The more DPS you have the more wiggle room will you have with mechanics. You can clear any vet dungeon/trial with 20-25k DPS but you and your teammates have to follow every mechanic flawlessly. Bump it up to 30-35k and you can start fooling around. Go to 40-45+k And you can pretty much start burning stuff while ignoring mechanics. And usually it is easier to increase your DPS than learn the mechanics flawlessly.

But 20k should be good for all non-DLC content without too much trouble.

John_Falstaff

@Sparr0w , oh, then very low DPS check. ^^ I mostly meant in theory, that there's some lower margin exists, simply because timer is present.

Also, Scalecaller Peak pleasantly doesn't have DPS checks whatsoever, but Zaan asks for a bit of burst to comfortably take ice spawns down before they freeze you. It's not much of a check, but the difference feels.

Lord_Etrigan

In all honesty is a dps check really necessary?

Most dungeons be it vet or normal require you to know mechanics and it don’t matter if you do 20k or 50k dps. If you don’t know mechanics, you are a dead dps:)

What people sometimes fail to realize is that your dps comes from sets but mostly smooth rotation. However, in dungeons and trails unlike the test dummy, the bosses and npc don’t stand still and they fight back with snares, roots etc. This means that you are not pulling a constant 20k dps

This also means you have to be on the constant move trying to get behind the boss for max damage and rounding up those npc if a tank is not available or occupied in order to deliver your ulti. You can complete VMA on a pet sorc with only 1bar and heavy attack. (may just take you a little bit longer) .

I have seen low level players put vets to shame in dungeons because the vet did not know positioning or mechanics.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

GreasyDave wrote: »

I think you might find direfrost hm too difficult. Though it depends on group dps and set up. But that one is a pure dps race and you are either doing more dps than she is healing or you are not.

....you do realize you can break free and negate most of her healing, right? I did direfrost HM with a potato group last week where I was doing 60% of the dps at 18K (new toon) and the other dps only broke free maybe half the time. It took like 12 minutes, but we did it.

In general, 20k is enough for anything vanilla, assuming the other dps isn't braindead. It's enough for the new dungeons as well, they're just all-around harder so people like more dps so they don't have to deal with the mechanics for as long.

GreenHere

I duo vet dungeons with a friend who has a hard time breaking 25k on a target skeleton. A dummy. A non-moving, non-evasive, never-puts-up-fight ***. If I'm tanking & healing (aka, doing almost no damage), and they're doing their <20k damage in actual fights, we take a while -- but we get it done. I don't recall a single time it simply wasn't doable with that low dps, and I doubt you'll often find a full group of 4 that does less. (We haven't done all the vet HMs yet, though)

Most people wouldn't have the patience to run in the situation I described above, but I do it to help my friend and spend time with them. It's fun for us. I can promise you, from experience, that it's possible to do damn near everything in any dungeon with 20k-ish total group dps. Takes approximately 3 forevers sometimes, but it's doable.

I usually tell people 20k is the bar for vet dungeons dps. If you can get that on a boss in most situations, you'll be okay. Below that, and you're better off running some normals to get more CP, gear, skills, whatever you need to boost your dps up to 20k.

GreenHere

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

GreasyDave wrote: »

I think you might find direfrost hm too difficult. Though it depends on group dps and set up. But that one is a pure dps race and you are either doing more dps than she is healing or you are not.

....you do realize you can break free and negate most of her healing, right? I did direfrost HM with a potato group last week where I was doing 60% of the dps at 18K (new toon) and the other dps only broke free maybe half the time. It took like 12 minutes, but we did it.

In general, 20k is enough for anything vanilla, assuming the other dps isn't braindead. It's enough for the new dungeons as well, they're just all-around harder so people like more dps so they don't have to deal with the mechanics for as long.

+1 on this, by the way. Direfrost Keep has no dps check; it has a Break Free check. If you're trying to simply out dps her healing, you're doing it wrong! Break Free asap!

kylewwefan

The ads before you get to the first boss are your DPS check. They should go away dead very very quick and be no problem at all. If your fighting this stuff for 2 or 3 or 4+ minutes, your DPS is suck. This dungeon is going to be a miserable experience. Have a nice day.

GreenHere

kylewwefan wrote: »

The ads before you get to the first boss are your DPS check. They should go away dead very very quick and be no problem at all. If your fighting this stuff for 2 or 3 or 4+ minutes, your DPS is suck. This dungeon is going to be a miserable experience. Have a nice day.

As a general rule of thumb, yep, exactly this. A lot of the time, the first group of mobs will tell you a LOT about how the dungeon will go. If you notice people bailing out right around the time this is happening, it might be time to go work on some things before entering vets again with randoms.

greenmachine

As far as true DPS checks I can;t think of many, Fang Lair and MHK have been said already. The last boss in Scalecaller Peak could be considered a DPS check I guess because you'll want Zaan dead before RNG can work against you. CoA II and Falkreath Hold, are DPS checks because at some point you'll run out of platforms or pillars, respectively. Similar with Bloodroot Forge, eventually the lava will cover the ground if you can't drop the boss.

Don't let that stop you from trying, though. If you can find a good group of people to run these dungeons with, you'll get the bosses down, and even the wipes will teach you a lot and the victory will be that much sweeter.

GreenHere

greenmachine wrote: »

As far as true DPS checks I can;t think of many, Fang Lair and MHK have been said already. The last boss in Scalecaller Peak could be considered a DPS check I guess because you'll want Zaan dead before RNG can work against you. CoA II and Falkreath Hold, are DPS checks because at some point you'll run out of platforms or pillars, respectively. Similar with Bloodroot Forge, eventually the lava will cover the ground if you can't drop the boss.

Don't let that stop you from trying, though. If you can find a good group of people to run these dungeons with, you'll get the bosses down, and even the wipes will teach you a lot and the victory will be that much sweeter.

Unless I'm mistaken, Falkreath isn't even a qualifier for a dps check, as the shout that destroys pillars is based on his health percentage. The only way you'll run out of pillars is if people are goofing the mechanic and using more than one pillar per shout. Same might be true for CoA, for all I know; but I don't know, since I don't think I've ever seen him reach the fifth pad.

Saphayla

GreenHere wrote: »

Same might be true for CoA, for all I know; but I don't know, since I don't think I've ever seen him reach the fifth pad.

I'm pretty sure Valkyn Skoria destroys the platforms at set time intervals, not related to his HP at the time.

greenmachine

GreenHere wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

As far as true DPS checks I can;t think of many, Fang Lair and MHK have been said already. The last boss in Scalecaller Peak could be considered a DPS check I guess because you'll want Zaan dead before RNG can work against you. CoA II and Falkreath Hold, are DPS checks because at some point you'll run out of platforms or pillars, respectively. Similar with Bloodroot Forge, eventually the lava will cover the ground if you can't drop the boss.

Don't let that stop you from trying, though. If you can find a good group of people to run these dungeons with, you'll get the bosses down, and even the wipes will teach you a lot and the victory will be that much sweeter.

Unless I'm mistaken, Falkreath isn't even a qualifier for a dps check, as the shout that destroys pillars is based on his health percentage. The only way you'll run out of pillars is if people are goofing the mechanic and using more than one pillar per shout. Same might be true for CoA, for all I know; but I don't know, since I don't think I've ever seen him reach the fifth pad.

That's true. Not really a DPS check.

ZeroXFF

Saphayla wrote: »

Hey, I just wanted to ask - what DPS checks are present in Dungeons? If I have, for example, 20k DPS, what content would I have a really hard time doing?

In vet Falkreath Hold you will probably get overwhelmed by adds in the execute phase. When it comes to 4-man dungeons, that's pretty much it. Everything else is doable with 40k group DPS if you follow mechanics, on non-hm anyways.

On hard mode there will be a few more places where that is probably not enough, like Bloodroot Forge (the room will be full with lava at this DPS before anything dies). Depending on RNG Ruins of Mazzatun hm might also be not doable with this DPS (if one DD is on statue and a totem spawns at the same time, especially in execute phase). In Scalecaller Peak on hm you'll need decent burst to kill off the statues quickly before you get frozen, though I think 20k might be just enough there. I'm not sure about the Wolfhunter dungeons on hm, because I never attempted hard modes there with DDs that weren't top notch, but on non-hm there are no DPS checks there (or rather there is a DPS cap due to some mechanics).

Katahdin

GreenHere wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

As far as true DPS checks I can;t think of many, Fang Lair and MHK have been said already. The last boss in Scalecaller Peak could be considered a DPS check I guess because you'll want Zaan dead before RNG can work against you. CoA II and Falkreath Hold, are DPS checks because at some point you'll run out of platforms or pillars, respectively. Similar with Bloodroot Forge, eventually the lava will cover the ground if you can't drop the boss.

Don't let that stop you from trying, though. If you can find a good group of people to run these dungeons with, you'll get the bosses down, and even the wipes will teach you a lot and the victory will be that much sweeter.

Unless I'm mistaken, Falkreath isn't even a qualifier for a dps check, as the shout that destroys pillars is based on his health percentage. The only way you'll run out of pillars is if people are goofing the mechanic and using more than one pillar per shout. Same might be true for CoA, for all I know; but I don't know, since I don't think I've ever seen him reach the fifth pad.

The DPS check in VFH is the last 12% or so of health where he spawns ads continuously. If you can't burn him fast enough. You get overwhelmed because you can't keep up with the mechanics and the adds blocking you everywhere.
Everything up to that point is not a dps check.

Valkyn Scotia on VCoA2 used to be a dps check before power creep and the ability to perfect builds and rotations surpassed it

Joxer61

GreenHere wrote: »

I duo vet dungeons with a friend who has a hard time breaking 25k on a target skeleton. A dummy. A non-moving, non-evasive, never-puts-up-fight ***. If I'm tanking & healing (aka, doing almost no damage), and they're doing their <20k damage in actual fights, we take a while -- but we get it done. I don't recall a single time it simply wasn't doable with that low dps, and I doubt you'll often find a full group of 4 that does less. (We haven't done all the vet HMs yet, though)

Most people wouldn't have the patience to run in the situation I described above, but I do it to help my friend and spend time with them. It's fun for us. I can promise you, from experience, that it's possible to do damn near everything in any dungeon with 20k-ish total group dps. Takes approximately 3 forevers sometimes, but it's doable.

I usually tell people 20k is the bar for vet dungeons dps. If you can get that on a boss in most situations, you'll be okay. Below that, and you're better off running some normals to get more CP, gear, skills, whatever you need to boost your dps up to 20k.

If you are on PC/NA I would love to run with you all well....just the mindset I look for and rarely find! Cheers!

db0ssman

One possible way to think about this is that you should be able to clear basically all dungeon content if your group can maintain a consistent 50k damage. So your group could look like: you do 20k, the other dd does 20k, healer does 10k, and your tank does 5k. A group like that should be able to clear any dungeon in the game with minimal difficulty. Where things are going to be a huge problem is if you go into fights with 20k dps and the healer is forced to only heal and the other dps does 7k damage. In that case, you more than likely won't be able to complete the fight or will struggle bus your way through. In that sense, pushing your own dps as high as possible will make it more likely that you can complete a larger percent of the dungeons that you go into.

Dungeons aren't trials and having a well rounded build in a dungeon is usually much better than one that strictly puts out lots of dps (think of more of a vMA build vs vTrial build). One problem I often run into healing dungeons is that people who are pretty inexperienced play builds that are too dps focused. They sacrifice all survivablity and sustain to squeeze out that extra 10% damage, but that results in causing me to have poor combat prayer up-times, poor damage myself, more time heavy attacking, more single point heals (which makes hots and buffs drop on other players).. etc etc. If that person's build went from 10k to 11k but became a complete glass cannon, then they made the whole group much worse by squeezing out dps. That's obviously only true within reason. If you can have two dps putting out 45k damage each, then they can be the most selfish builds in the world, but the vast majority of the player base isn't going to get close to that in boss fights.

Darkenarlol

with perfect execution of all mechanics by all members of your team you can clear whatever you want in most cases...

higher dps just makes things faster to the points you can totally skip some boss phases.

needless to say that shorter fights lowers mistake chance(including overall tireness)

another question - is your skill level somewhere near flawless uber mad skillz but you just lack some dps

or your overall skill level is somewhere at beginner's level as your dps?


anyway just go and try it by yourself - you'll see where your team lacks dps

most likely it gonna be DLC hm's because everything else is easy even with 40k party dps

(including CoA2 hm - about 40k party dps to clear, but it feels way better with 120-150+ party dps =D )

gl anyway

MooseKnuckles88

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Just check Combat Metrics after the first boss fight. You will see the group damage and you will have a rough idea on what is the total DPS your teammates were doing.

And if you're not on PC?

munster1404

GreasyDave wrote: »

I think you might find direfrost hm too difficult. Though it depends on group dps and set up. But that one is a pure dps race and you are either doing more dps than she is healing or you are not.

It took us nearly 13mins with 15K grp dps. At one point she was out healing the damage as magicka DDs had insufficient stamina to CC break. One of my least favourite dungeons as a Tank main since Drodda cannot be taunted.